I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[Puddleknock]

Nice first post and hello.

Thats said I do disagree with you, we as humans are animals. I care more for human choice then I do the rights non humans.

Though my views of Veganism will always be skewed as I used to date a vegan and she was very preachy about it. For example she wouldn't let me eat meat in front of her. The relationship didn't last long.

 

[Cubilone]

Snip

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

Comparing people who choose to eat meat to rapists, well done there. Allow me to put it like this. Just because I choose to eat meat does not make me a rapist and being all high and mighty looking down on people from your pedastal is just childish seriously.

As I said I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarians or vegans, I wouldn't to be one but I don't go around saying stupid comments like "You don't eat meat, you're as bad as the Nazis!" just because I don't agree with them. It's people like you who make a lot of people give abuse to vegetarians when you start comparing us to rapist.

And yes I could kill a dear by biting it in the neck, why I would even consider it under normal circumstances I don't know but yes I could and if I was stranded without food and any way to get help then maybe I'd go around biting dear.

About rape: I'm comparing a natural instinct to another natural instinct. One we have suppressed and called a crime and a taboo and the other is perfectly normal. Please tell me where my logic is wrong? I'm not calling anyone a rapist, by the way. I'm trying to make you understand that the "it's natural!" argument doesn't apply, because we have already replaced a lot of natural behaviours with more agreeable ones in contemporary societies.

Cadmium Magenta, I'm with you. I'm a vegetarian myself but admire vegans that do not make fools of themselves by being too preachy about their choices.

Prepare to be met with overwhelming close-mindedness and hypocrisy.

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

Would you eat a retarded person? How do you define intelligence? Are dogs, pigs or dolphins intelligent in your worldview?

No. They are not, with exceptions being chimps and dolphins. But last I checked very few people eat them. And how can you possibly equate a retarded human to a fish? Are the retarded humans not people? Or are people only those that are "functional" or "normal"?

I think that we have eyes in the front of our heads for a reason. I think e have canines for a reason. It's not wrong to kill animals for food it's how it's supposed to be, we're predators and if a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan then it's their choice. But I like animals, I don't agree with hunting for sport, testing products on animals and stuff like that but I'm not going to stop eating meat.

And yes we are animals and we think it's ok to kill them because we were designed to kill stuff to eat it...

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

It is natural boss. If you make a conscious choice to be DIFFERENT from the norm(IE: not eating meat) you are breaking the natural order. One might as well say that if you chose to only drink milk because water is a resource that shouldn't be wasted on hydration and only used for crops and if you disagree its because you have weak ethics. That makes no sense at all. As for the raping thing, yes rape is horrible. And just because a girl gives you an erection doesnt mean you attack her. The difference is you NEED food to survive. Not quite the case there with sex, though it would make life very sad. Also you ask "when was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?" does that mean with my bare hands or with tools? Is using tools against nature? Does it mean you have weak ethics if you use tools? Do you ride a bike? Drive a car? Ride in a plane? Use the internet? Wear clothes? None of that is in line with true nature, yet we do it. Does that mean that we all have weak ethics? Or is there an ethical line that makes you feel better about what you do that others cross? I would say EVERYONE has such a line in their head, and this is clearly one of those issues.

You need food to survive. That is true. However, we are choosing some of the most inefficient means to feed available. Just saying that we need food to survive implies anything that can be used as food, including other humans. So there must be a line, as you very well say. My argument is not that people that say that they do natural things have weak ethics. I'm only saying that it's a bad argument and a bad excuse coming from people that have self-contradictory ethical frameworks.

I agree, we are using many tools that are not "natural" for us to use but perhaps our ability to come up with them to suit our needs is natural. That is intelligent. Using so many resources that could be used to make food for more people, making so much meat of so poor quality with so many people thinking that they're Gaia's hunters when they're munching on a burger of unknown origin is, pardon me, not intelligent. And it's not moral either.

If you can't see the moral problems, just think about your reaction when I tell you I might have a dog burger or a cat casserole. We have become deeply speciesist.

 

[RatRace123]

I'm a believer in animal rights and animal welfare, I will opt for meat substitutes over the real thing (mostly for personal health issues), but when it comes down to it I still will eat meat if it's on my plate.

Yes, I'm well aware that the burger I consume comes from the flesh of a dead animal and I'm also aware that I put my craving for meat ahead of an animal. I accept this, and I also accept that I have a biased view towards some animals, most notably what are traditionally considered pet animals in the western world. And when I support animal welfare, I'm gonna be honest when I say I mainly think of Dogs, cats, horses and all those other ones. Do I think it would be better if "livestock" animals were treated better before the end? Yes, of course, but that still won't stop me from enjoying a steak or a drumstick.

Maybe this isn't fair to the animals in question and maybe my views are hypocritical but that's how I live my life, and that's how lots of others live their lives. And in other parts of the world dogs and cats are eaten much like pigs, chickens and cows are here, I can accept this too, I wouldn't do it since my views of those animals are different but I fully understand it.

In the end I'm well aware where the meat on my plate comes from and I can live with the fact that an animal had to die for me to get it, and that's not gonna stop me from eating it mainly because, well it's tasty and I'm on the top of the food chain, so I can.

 

[Cubilone]

I can't find anyone here in this thread making that statement, so you're just making a preemptive argument?

Just look at your own first response to this thread! You're implying that we're making these animals a favor by having them to suit our needs so they do not deserve any kind of liberty. Am I wrong?

 

[Rawne1980]

I eat meat because I like it.

The first time a steak looks up at me and tells me it doesn't want to be eaten is the time when turn vegan.

As that is never likely to happen, I guess i'll continue with this full english breakfast i'm about to cook.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

And there you go vegans, millions of animals die to feed you so now your high horse comes tumbling down.

Guess you don't have a moral high ground at all.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Just look at your own first response to this thread! You're implying that we're making these animals a favor by having them to suit our needs so they do not deserve any kind of liberty. Am I wrong?

Only in the light that they are alive right now, and we can't go back in time and unmake them.

 

[sketch_zeppelin]

I'm not sold on the idea that anyone can live off a completly meat free diet. Somthing that few people want to take into account is that each person has fairly unique dietary needs. Often when we feel a craving for somthing, thats our bodies trying to tell us it needs that.

I think its plasible that some people could live off of a herbal diet but not everyone.

as for the moral implications, thats bullshit. Eating meat is natural. Choosing not to eat meat doesn't make you any more moral. An animal won't thank you for sparing its life. It can't think on that level. They don't take it personal that we killed it. We're just another preaditor to them.

Being nice to somthing that can't resipracate doesn't make you moral. It makes you weak. Weak in the sense that your choosing to give somthing up in return for nothing. You aren't getting anything for giving up meat. your just out a dietary option. If your cool with that then so am i.

oh and you may not be aware but saying that being vegan is the most ethical way of living means that you do feel your better than us meat eaters. If you truely belived that your no better than the rest of us then you'd have no problem that others choose to eat meat.

Now i don't look at Vegans any differently then i look at a meat eater. Unless they identify themselves as a Vegan and give me shit about my live choices, which to be fair, few ever have so i'm largely indiffrent to them.

You don't have to hide from the fact that you think being Vegan makes you a little better than everyone else. Just be ready to defend your position.

 

[meryatathagres]

I'm quite aware of the slaughterhouse industry and other attrocities we humans do to animals. Still, I don't really care. And tbh, I think noone should care about the rights of chickens or pigs before we have fixed the tiny problem of millions of kids of our own species starving to death each year..

 

[Kahohess]

The only point in being omnivores is because we, as a spiece, foreseen the coming of the french fries with our steaks.

 

[Byere]

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

Every living thing is intelligent in some way or another. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean that everything has the ability to talk and have a happy little tea party... but all animals have their own complex language, even some plants and most insects do. Hell, some beetles use Morse code (not literally, but they use clicks and knocks on a surface to communicate) and bees use interpretive dance for crying out loud! Still, those that have been bred for consumption (cows, sheep, etc) are there to be eaten. Thus, I shall eat them.

Yes, I am a carnivore and proud of it.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

We are Omnivores so we have the choice to eat both if we want. I can see you point and a part of me wishes we could just replicate meat, but as of right now we can't.

I just love meat too much to give it up and they are going to kill the animals regardless if I eat them or not so why not make sure they didn't die in vein. Imagine getting killed to be eaten and then end up just being thrown in the trash. Also all those nuts, grains, and other goodies you need to make up for the fact you don't eat meat can get rather expensive.

 

[FrostyChick]

Human beings are omnivores, which means that we can eat almost anything.

Hmmm, not quite true. Humans are omnivores, which means that as a species we have adapted to survive on a mixed diet of animal and plant matter. It's not a choice, it's something that's arisen out of biological necessity.

However, given that most of the developed world is currently in an age of plenty, such biological necessities are pretty much completely eliminated, but only on a personal level.
It might be possible one day for a vegan diet to be sustainable for the entire human population, but it's not going to be anytime soon. I would be surprised if it happened in my lifetime.

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals.

Sad truth, but we are animals. We just have managed to get to the top of the food chain.

But apart from those few minor points. You put out a rather good point of view.
It isn't going to convince me to switch, a vegan diet would be very difficult for me to pull off.
But I'll respect your desicion to follow this particular path.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

we need protein to live, and the best source i know of is meat.

I eat meat because I like it.

The first time a steak looks up at me and tells me it doesn't want to be eaten is the time when turn vegan.

As that is never likely to happen, I guess i'll continue with this full english breakfast i'm about to cook.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

And there you go vegans, millions of animals die to feed you so now your high horse comes tumbling down.

Guess you don't have a moral high ground at all.

thats actually a good point... and i suppose if we stuck to one species it wouldnt be such a massive impact.

 

[Sectan]

If I wasn't eating the meat, someone else would. So it might as well be me.

I don't feel bad about eating meat. Imagine this. You are in your house and everything you could ever want was there. You didn't ask why and you didn't care why. You didn't worry about your future. Then one day in your happy life you go *boop* and that's it. There was no suffering, no fear. You had a good happy life and that's all any animal really strives for. Well that and procreation, but that's usually taken care of. I'd choose that over being chased down by a predator, scared for my life just running to survive. Taking that one misstep and falling to the ground. Sharp claws and teeth ripping me apart while I slowly bleed out... Yeah, I'm staying in the barnyard. Plus meat just tastes so damn good...

*Granted this isn't true for all farms, but fuck those other farms.*

 

[Beefy_Nugglet]

I like putting meats in my salads. Can I be approved by both sides on this argument?

 

[Rednog]

Yea sorry but I'll let vegans preach and tell me what to eat when the whole world has enough food that it can make that choice, but until then you live in a 1st world country where you can afford to do whatever the hell you want with your food. But that in no way shape or form reflects the rest of the world, for many people meat is the most accessible and highest source of badly needed protein and other amino acids.
Also in terms of animal testing, I'm all for it. Why? Because it saves human lives.
Simple as that, hell if clubbing every baby seal in the world would cure one of the diseases the plagues man-kind I would be the first in line to do it myself.
In terms of full on animal abuse with no purpose, like dog fights, outright torture, yea I'm against that, but when we're talking research that can save a person's life, I'm sorry but the human life is going to take priority each and every time.
Also you can't claim ethics or moral superiority when biology and nature basically disagree with you.
Animals kill and eat other animals, that is established.
A significant majority of the world cannot and does not follow or believe that eating meat is wrong.
Sorry but your line of reasoning just isn't how ethics work, it is a consensus of society what we deem right and wrong, the minority doesn't get to decide.

 

[Arina Love]

animals have the right to be tasty. i'm carnivore i need tasty meat to function it's easy to digest and full of nutrients. As humans are on top of the food chain, animals only have one right is to be nutrient and tasty, they don't have any more right than that. Liberty is irrelevant for meat that we breed and slaughter or test upon.

 

[hensethe1]

For f's sake.... I know that vegans are awfully cute and adorable with their respect for animals and their rights, but why is it you have to tell everyone about it? Why is it you have this need to try and create discussions and debates about EATING? About food??

I mean no disrespect, but vegans floss my nerves just as much as fanatic christians do. Just because they have their opinion, why do they have to try to justify and preach about their beliefs and whatever else they have to say?

We eat meat because it's a faster and more efficient way to get the nutrients we need. We don't eat meat because we can.. We eat meat because that is what we have done for hundreds, thousands of years to be able to survive. If you were a vegetarian 50 years ago, you'd been mocked and pitied for your sense of weird belief. It's still very new to humanity to know this much about nutrition and what different sorts of diet we can live by, and that is also why many people are very loyal to meat, and always will be

 

[Beefy_Nugglet]

Seriously, why is this kind of s*** being argued about. We've all heard this god forsaken argument a million times. "I'm a vegan because I love animals." "I eat meat because it tastes good and I like it." Okay, we get it. Vegans, get off your god damned high horse, and Meat-eaters stop trying to defend yourselves so much, we all get it.

Case Dismissed.