Im super proud of 4chan.

[SacremPyrobolum]

As far as Semon Demon OC Waifus go, this one is pretty cool. Pretty much a ginger, bitchier version of Tomoko from Watamote for /v/ to have unholy thoughts about regarding her feet.

I'm not saying that as a bad thing, either.

 

[GenuflectHonesty]

It's something done out of pure spite. It's admittedly productive and fairly harmless to everyone, but it was done in spite.

Kudos to you, 4chins, but I don't use /v/ or keep on this shitfit so I don't have much else to say.

Just because it was done in spite doesn't excuse the fact that when people that were supposedly all for more women in gaming were given a chance to make that happen, almost none of them actually stepped up to the plate to support this charity despite nothing keeping them from doing so save for "If 4chan is supporting it, it MUST be bad!" But no, these people are more interested in funding people that only complain about games rather than actually funding them.

There's a reason that when Vivian was made, one of the things on her list of dislikes was dishonesty.

For those of you in this thread wondering what role Vivian has beyond "awesome mascot", she's going to be a character in the winning game for TFYC's project (I personally hope it's Afterlife Empire).

 

[Olas]

I am not sure that people raising money for a cause that they at best don't care for or at worst actively don't like just to spite another group of people and a specific individual in particular is something to be very proud off.

But for being 4chan this is about as close as they get to being collectively civil, nice and reasonable. So I guess that is something, even if it is akin to saying that someone no longer spitting everyone they meet in the face is a sign that that person is mature.

If the goal was merely to spite certain people /v/ could have done so in a whole manner of ways that weren't constructive and didn't cost them any money. The creation of Vivian and the supporting of a charity to promote female involvement in game development was clearly done to counter accusations of misogyny.

You can say they wouldn't have done it if they didn't have pressure to do so, but neither would most people, including many people who identify as feminists, otherwise this thing would have been funded in no time. And the way I see it, people who want to avoid a certain label, are usually not very fond of the label, and by extension what it represents. If they were truly misogynistic, it doesn't seem like something they would do. It's kind of like a KKK member donating money to the NAACP to try and prove they aren't racist.

 

[renegade7]

And most importantly, Vivian will NEVER friendzone you and absolutely loves your fedora and your reddit screeds about how wonderful Christopher Hitchens was. Because you're a nice guy, and only a feminazi who worships some phony god would fail to see that and date some asshole douchebag PUA instead.

I just want to say one thing, and it's all I think I'm ever going to say on the subject. Every time, every single fucking time feminism meets video games, the result is shit like this whole Quinn thing or the backlash against Anita Sarkeesian. Quinn is just another indie game dev who made one flash-based text adventure online and Sarkeesian is one among thousands upon thousands of people producing editorial content about games (regardless of whether it is accurate or not, if this is about honesty and integrity, where the hell was this indignation back when Jack Thompson or Senator Yee were stirring up their respective media shitshows and legitimately threatening the future of the industry?). Their opinions and lives should not matter this much to this many people: do you really think Sarkeesian is the only one making controversial and potentially unfounded comments about video games? So finishing this all up, I just want to ask: if these people have to endure rape threats, online harassment, stocking, and having personal information about them posted on the internet just because they're attached to something that suggests the absolute BLASPHEMY that maybe gender equality is a problem area in video game culture, then doesn't that kind of prove their point?

 

[GabeZhul]

And most importantly, Vivian will NEVER friendzone you and absolutely loves your fedora and your reddit screeds about how wonderful Christopher Hitchens was. Because you're a nice guy, and only a feminazi who worships some phony god would fail to see that and date some asshole douchebag PUA instead.

I just want to say one thing, and it's all I think I'm ever going to say on the subject. Every time, every single fucking time feminism meets video games, the result is shit like this whole Quinn thing or the backlash against Anita Sarkeesian. Quinn is just another indie game dev who made one flash-based text adventure online and Sarkeesian is one among thousands upon thousands of people producing editorial content about games (regardless of whether it is accurate or not, if this is about honesty and integrity, where the hell was this indignation back when Jack Thompson or Senator Yee were stirring up their respective media shitshows and legitimately threatening the future of the industry?). Their opinions and lives should not matter this much to this many people: do you really think Sarkeesian is the only one making controversial and potentially unfounded comments about video games? So finishing this all up, I just want to ask: if these people have to endure rape threats, online harassment, stocking, and having personal information about them posted on the internet just because they're attached to something that suggests the absolute BLASPHEMY that maybe gender equality is a problem area in video game culture, then doesn't that kind of prove their point?

Yup, it was only a matter of time before someone like you showed up.

Just to clarify:
-The "Zoe Quinn thing" didn't stem from her making a flash game. It came from her controversy revealing the lack of integrity in the gaming journalism scene and her possibly manufacturing a victimization outrage to promote her game against a social outcast group. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

-Sarkeesian didn't get a backlash because she is just "producing editorial content about games", it's because of her contradictory claims, research failures, downright lies when discussing game mechanics and the compeltely unrepentant attitude she shows when these flaws are shown to her. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

Then why did these become big controversies instead of fading into the noise of the internet? Because of you. Not necessarily you in particular, but every single person who jumps into these discussions and starts trowing accusations of misogyny, sexism and harassment around.
If a guy made the same blunders these women did, it would have been a non-event, or at least something restricted to small, relevant parts of the net. However they are women, and apparently that's all that's needed for an army to jump to their defense to protect them from "misogyny" and "sexists" and "the patriarchy" or whatever, regardless if any of those is present, because apparently those are the only reason why anyone would disagree with or dislike a woman in their mind.

This is why we can't have a proper discussion about these things. Not because gamers are sexist, but because there is always at least one guy who jumps in and accuses everyone of sexism and derails any and all intelligent discourse just because the subject of the topic is a woman or in any way related to some flavor of feminism. It's both sad and incredibly infuriating.

 

[Quadocky]

This is why we can't have a proper discussion about these things. Not because gamers are sexist, but because there is always at least one guy who jumps in and accuses everyone of sexism and derails any and all intelligent discourse just because the subject of the topic is a woman or in any way related to some flavor of feminism. It's both sad and incredibly infuriating.

this doesn't make any sense though. Are you saying that gamers cannot be sexist or are you saying that people who accuse others of being misogynistic or sexist causes people to be sexist? Please do explain.

 

[GabeZhul]

This is why we can't have a proper discussion about these things. Not because gamers are sexist, but because there is always at least one guy who jumps in and accuses everyone of sexism and derails any and all intelligent discourse just because the subject of the topic is a woman or in any way related to some flavor of feminism. It's both sad and incredibly infuriating.

this doesn't make any sense though. Are you saying that gamers cannot be sexist or are you saying that people who accuse others of being misogynistic or sexist causes people to be sexist? Please do explain.

You are confusing something there, though I have no idea how you are doing it since the quoted paragraph seems perfectly straight to me. Anyways:

My problem is that at this point legitimate discussions about legitimate topics, be it gender-representations in gaming or the implications of the Zoe Quinn debacle on the gaming press, are constantly getting derailed not by actual sexism from gamers, but people coming in with the preconceived notion that any topic related to a woman, feminism, or women in general must be somehow fueled by misogyny and derail the thread by accusing everyone present (and the gaming community in general) as sexist. Aka, the threads don't get messed up by roving hordes of misogynists making derogatory comments, but people who presume that everyone else in the discussion in a closet misogynist.

There is really no argument there, it's just a huge, flaming ad hominem, whereas any dissenting opinion and criticism regarding the topic's subject is deemed to stem from the participants' inherent sexism and therefore considered invalid by the accuser, which in turn means that the discussion grinds to a halt since one side already has their "conclusion". Then, when someone naively tries to correct this notion or at least put it into perspective (vocal minorities, internet anonymity, etc.) it becomes a separate, often heated argument which derails the thread and completely destroys any chance of an actually productive discussion.

On the other hand I said nothing about no gamers being sexist or comments turning them sexist, so I have to throw the ball back into your court and ask you to please explain how you managed to read that into my post.

 

[AJ_Lethal]

you know that there's a God when 4Chan does a better job than the usual "point fingers and yell at it until they yield over" crowd when it comes to social issues in videogaming.

You're assuming that what they've done is actually going to change anything (spoiler alert: it's not). In fact all it's doing, as evidenced by this thread, is giving people who are against actual, reasonable feminism another way to smugly dismiss people who want change.

Except the whole push for putting Vivian as a female lead in a videogame has more weight and meaning than just pointing fingers, screaming, threatening and harassing.

 

[Verlander]

I'm an old man, and sites like Vice are blocked at work, so I'm having trouble following what the fuck is going on at the moment. I'd really appreciate if someone could let me know, as neutrally as possible:

1) What the argument about Zoe Quinn is? I've vaguely heard what she's done, but I'm not sure why it warrants a 300 page thread on this forum.

2) What constitutes a "Social Justice Warrior"? My impression was that they're guys/gals that argue for equality, but the hatred they get makes me think otherwise.

3) Who is Vivian James/what's the point of it?

4) Why are FYC seemed to be heroes, when what they seem to be doing is SJW on a more organised scale?

5) Where 4chan come into all of this?

If you don't want old fuds blocking up this thread, feel free to private message me, but this has all blown up and I have no idea what's going on.

OT: The character looks cool, but I have no idea as to it's relevance. How does it "take down all feminists" exactly? Why are feminists the enemy? I'm so goddamn confused.

 

[Eddie the head]

Let us be honest here people, if 4chan was going to do something out of spite, do you really think it would be them donating to a charity?

Really think about it, I mean really think about it.

When a group you like gives to charity it's because they're all wonderful people. When a group you dislike gives to charity it's because of the circumstances. This is just cognitive dissonance. How do you reconcile the idea that this are bad people, and they are doing a good thing? You say it's not because of who they are it's because of whats around them.

More over I don't care, and I don't see why anyone should. The intent of the party involved isn't relevant only the outcome is. Rationalize it all you want I don't see a difference in long run.

 

[carnex]

To explain 4chan a bit to people. 4chan is plenty of boards, each with their own population which fight, constantly, with each other and within themselves. It's almost total freedom with all the conseqences. That said

 

[renegade7]

Just to clarify:
-The "Zoe Quinn thing" didn't stem from her making a flash game. It came from her controversy revealing the lack of integrity in the gaming journalism scene and her possibly manufacturing a victimization outrage to promote her game against a social outcast group. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

No, I don't just "want to believe that", because I don't want to think of the community that I am a part of as containing even a vocal handful of particularly noxious people. But if this is about journalistic integrity and standing up for social causes, I'm having a hard time believing that Quinn is the only editor in gaming to ever compromise her integrity, let alone the broader field of journalism. Or that of the male reporter who compromised his own integrity by allegedly sleeping with her, for that matter. But this isn't a Zoe Quinn thread (I was only quoting her as the most recent example) so I'll put that to the side lest the mods start getting cautious.

-Sarkeesian didn't get a backlash because she is just "producing editorial content about games", it's because of her contradictory claims, research failures, downright lies when discussing game mechanics and the compeltely unrepentant attitude she shows when these flaws are shown to her. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

Again, I direct your intention to the likes of Jack Thompson and Senator Yee, who not only did exactly those same things but did so in a manner that legitimately threatened the video gaming industry and had the potential to have people who play video games given similar legal and psychiatric status as violent predators. This furor was not present when they were in the midst of their respective shticks. And also, regardless of how you feel about their work (I don't care for Sarkeesian's videos either for the exact criticisms you level at it), the response has gotten to the point where she is now threatened by organized harassment campaigns. Gender and politics aside, there is nothing appropriate about the level things have gotten to.

Then why did these become big controversies instead of fading into the noise of the internet? Because of you.

If it was up to me, or people who share my opinions, then they would have faded into the noise of the internet as just another couple of unremarkable bloggers or indie developers with nothing new to do or say about anything. I don't care about their work or their history: Tropes vs Women is at its best boring and rote with no new opinions and at its worst poorly researched to the point of strawman argument, and Depression Quest could have been simplified to a 30 second PSA (although, if the allegations are indeed true and she slept with a journalist to promote a game promoting depression awareness, then I don't see the problem. If "Screw around to promote awareness of [serious disease here]" were to become a serious campaign then humanity would be free of illness within the month). Rather, it is the massive fucking shitstorm that has thoroughly transcended anything anything that could result from simple offensiveness, poor quality, or disagreement that I am interested in.

That is, what I want to know is why so many people have been so offended by the claims and actions of faceless, unknown, and almost thoroughly powerless bloggers. To me, it's gotten past the point where I care about it in regards to my own social views of gender. For instance, look at "This is Thin Privilege", an overtly feminism group which actually may be a driver in a potentially serious social problem (taking an apathetic stance on the matter with the costs of obesity continually rising), and criticism of them has never reached this level. I am seriously wondering, feminism aside, politics aside, and whatever else of my own views might have an influence on it, what in the hell did these women to make the entire Internet so incredibly furious?

Not necessarily you in particular, but every single person who jumps into these discussions and starts trowing accusations of misogyny, sexism and harassment around.

I never said that all gamers or even the majority of gamers are sexist or stalkers, nor did I call anyone those things directly. What I said was that maybe the reason people keep accusing the community of having a problem with respect for women is because we keep acting so much like we do and, more significantly, responding explosively any time someone gets up and says that maybe we should evaluate it.

If a guy made the same blunders these women did, it would have been a non-event, or at least something restricted to small, relevant parts of the net. However they are women, and apparently that's all that's needed for an army to jump to their defense to protect them from "misogyny" and "sexists" and "the patriarchy" or whatever, regardless if any of those is present, because apparently those are the only reason why anyone would disagree with or dislike a woman in their mind.

There is criticism, and then there is the mess that this whole affair has devolved into. Criticism would be a suggestion that their work or behavior has problems, or telling other people of issues and complaints. Inappropriate criticism would be name-calling and shit talk. But when we get to organized defamation campaigns (because apparently posting people's personal information online is lol so funny) we've crossed over the threshold into just plain being shitty people. The problem, ultimately, is not sexism or feminism or any other gender politics, it's that we're willing to go so far for such trivial issues.

 

[Zipa]

And most importantly, Vivian will NEVER friendzone you and absolutely loves your fedora and your reddit screeds about how wonderful Christopher Hitchens was. Because you're a nice guy, and only a feminazi who worships some phony god would fail to see that and date some asshole douchebag PUA instead.

I just want to say one thing, and it's all I think I'm ever going to say on the subject. Every time, every single fucking time feminism meets video games, the result is shit like this whole Quinn thing or the backlash against Anita Sarkeesian. Quinn is just another indie game dev who made one flash-based text adventure online and Sarkeesian is one among thousands upon thousands of people producing editorial content about games (regardless of whether it is accurate or not, if this is about honesty and integrity, where the hell was this indignation back when Jack Thompson or Senator Yee were stirring up their respective media shitshows and legitimately threatening the future of the industry?). Their opinions and lives should not matter this much to this many people: do you really think Sarkeesian is the only one making controversial and potentially unfounded comments about video games? So finishing this all up, I just want to ask: if these people have to endure rape threats, online harassment, stocking, and having personal information about them posted on the internet just because they're attached to something that suggests the absolute BLASPHEMY that maybe gender equality is a problem area in video game culture, then doesn't that kind of prove their point?

Yup, it was only a matter of time before someone like you showed up.

Just to clarify:
-The "Zoe Quinn thing" didn't stem from her making a flash game. It came from her controversy revealing the lack of integrity in the gaming journalism scene and her possibly manufacturing a victimization outrage to promote her game against a social outcast group. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

-Sarkeesian didn't get a backlash because she is just "producing editorial content about games", it's because of her contradictory claims, research failures, downright lies when discussing game mechanics and the compeltely unrepentant attitude she shows when these flaws are shown to her. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or misogyny, only you guys want to believe it.

Then why did these become big controversies instead of fading into the noise of the internet? Because of you. Not necessarily you in particular, but every single person who jumps into these discussions and starts trowing accusations of misogyny, sexism and harassment around.
If a guy made the same blunders these women did, it would have been a non-event, or at least something restricted to small, relevant parts of the net. However they are women, and apparently that's all that's needed for an army to jump to their defense to protect them from "misogyny" and "sexists" and "the patriarchy" or whatever, regardless if any of those is present, because apparently those are the only reason why anyone would disagree with or dislike a woman in their mind.

This is why we can't have a proper discussion about these things. Not because gamers are sexist, but because there is always at least one guy who jumps in and accuses everyone of sexism and derails any and all intelligent discourse just because the subject of the topic is a woman or in any way related to some flavor of feminism. It's both sad and incredibly infuriating.

You hit the nail right on the head, every time someone actually questions or takes issues with these feminists like Anita and Quinn they are labelled as a misogynist or a fedora tipper or a kid and a great many other things. There is no room for discussion, no middle ground, no discourse its we are right you are wrong stop being a woman hater. Frankly its utter bullshit and I am getting tired of being told I am all these things.

 

[renegade7]

I'm an old man, and sites like Vice are blocked at work, so I'm having trouble following what the fuck is going on at the moment. I'd really appreciate if someone could let me know, as neutrally as possible:

1) What the argument about Zoe Quinn is? I've vaguely heard what she's done, but I'm not sure why it warrants a 300 page thread on this forum.

Her ex-boyfriend got a little upset with the rejection and posted her detailed sexual history online, which included a game journalist that would later refer to one of her works in an editorial piece. This led to an accusation that she had exchanged sex for publicity for her game.

As for why it warrants hundreds of pages of vitriol, it really does have all the pieces for a perfect internet clusterfuck. It involves sex and dating (many internet denizens, apparently lacking experience with these things, attribute far more weight to them than they actually warrant), feminism (the internet's universal berserk button, see previous), and most importantly, a perceived attack on the video gaming industry (somehow) because you don't DARE criticize the video gaming industry and community.

2) What constitutes a "Social Justice Warrior"? My impression was that they're guys/gals that argue for equality, but the hatred they get makes me think otherwise.

An SJW is someone who aggressively but disingenously promotes causes that have little to do with them because they either enjoy the attention of being a promoter or they enjoy having something to fire up about and feel like they're fighting for something. Basically, a persecution complex manifesting in the guise of a social equality advocate.

3) Who is Vivian James/what's the point of it?

Well, basically, some people on a forum (/pol/ in this case) can't differentiate between what's important and what isn't and decided that it was in fact necessary to initiate a campaign to improve their image (one would think that they could maybe start by tuning down the racism and anti-Semitism, even if it is supposed to be "ironic" or whatever) and to that end created Vivian James as a mascot (subtly approaching "waifu") to promote a gender equality campaign and look good in the midst of the current controversy about Zoe Quinn. Quinn had also allegedly just sabotaged a feminism in gaming event in order to promote her own, so they chose to prop up the other event, either because they genuinely care (one would hope) or it's somehow their way of spiting her.

Or, basically, because they have the mentality of teenage girls and have turned this into a massive personal drama.

How does it "take down all feminists" exactly? Why are feminists the enemy? I'm so goddamn confused.

I share these questions.