In Defense of Final Fantasy XIII
- Thread starter Jeff Dunn
- Start date
I'm surprised the Escapist let this article on the site considering how much the community here "Likes" Final Fantasy XIII, but as a fan of XIII I'm glad to see it and I think you made some very good points. However, I still don't see how people found it confusing. Compared to VII's "Clouds a clone" and VIII's Time Compression I found it very easy to follow as long as you paid attention to the dialogue (and no, I didn't look at the encyclopedia thing once as it all gets explained in time.)
I also agree that the characters were great and, in my opinion, some of the best they've done, but boy do I want to whack Snow round the head with something heavy. Its also one of the few Final Fantasy's I've played twice and gotten an entire different character experience because I know their history. First time round Vanille is the annoying peppy one that seems to be madatory in any Japanese game. Second time round, shes like the band on the Titanic as it sinks.
Oh, and while XIII-2 is good, its hard work with a story that, while interesting, really doesn't grab you and hold you like some of the others. Worth playing though.
I also agree that the characters were great and, in my opinion, some of the best they've done, but boy do I want to whack Snow round the head with something heavy. Its also one of the few Final Fantasy's I've played twice and gotten an entire different character experience because I know their history. First time round Vanille is the annoying peppy one that seems to be madatory in any Japanese game. Second time round, shes like the band on the Titanic as it sinks.
Oh, and while XIII-2 is good, its hard work with a story that, while interesting, really doesn't grab you and hold you like some of the others. Worth playing though.
What? You mean it's unreasonable to assume that the thirteenth installment in one of the most famous series of RPGs in gaming ISN'T meant to be an RPG?
This reminds of when Tommy Wiseau went back and claimed that his atrocity of a movie (The Room) was was actually meant as a "comedy", when the tone clearly isn't intentionally humorous at all.
EDIT:
Actually, the whole time I was playing FF13 (brief as it was), I could not stop thinking of another game that had similar problems: Xenosaga Episode 2.
It had very similar gameplay related problems and an overwrought story.
I read the whole article but I still think it is only being devil's advocate to try to defend this game. How are you suggesting that the game was never supposed to be an RPG and the players just didn't get that the game tried to be better by being different? Such comments anger me, really. And I don't listen to each and every one of the producers giving speeches about the genre of the game they are making to check whether it matches with the genre I expect. Those producer speechers usually contain a lot of useless stuff, anyhow. All in all I'm still mad at anything Final Fantasy XIII.
Oh, and I never found Zell annoying... Why did you suggest that?
Oh, and I never found Zell annoying... Why did you suggest that?
I think the things that hampered FFXIII are not specifically to do with the name Final Fantasy as much as the expectations placed on the JRPG format itself thanks in large part to the success of Final Fantasy since the Playstation.
It has become de rigeur for a JRPG story to confuse pretention for grandiosity, because dammit it worked for FFVII (Let's face it, the story of Jenova is just the story of Lavos from Chrono Trigger with a bunch of unnecessary cruft about lifestreams and whatnot), there are very few that actually connect us to the protagonist on a personal level like, say, Breath of Fire 3 did.
The battle system, however, is one of the best in any JRPG, and certainly the best in a Final Fantasy. It makes the most of the fact that there is no attrition to make almost every combat a meaningful challenge, usually with a solution based not on luck or brute force of levels but on understanding and manipulating the system provided to you, using the right mix of classes at the right time, and changing them in response to the flow of the battle. You might not be clicking on "attack" every round yourself, but you'll be making far more decisions than you would in any other FF game.
The problem with it is repetition, because there are quite a low number of potential encounter groups in each area the player will find themself fighting the same encounter repeatedly, and because the nature of the encounters is that they are now almost a puzzle, when you have solved the puzzle there is no need to modify your approach. Contrast that with, say, Enchanted Arms, an otherwise pretty terrible game which had a similar restoration of characters between battles, but which rationed the restoration of HP and MP (used by all attacks) by the reduction of another resource, so there was always an incentive to improve your solution to the same encounters so that you could keep fighting further towards the next save point.
Had FFXIII had either a system like that to push the player to continue thinking even in repeated encounters to refine their approach to them, or altered the encounter design to provide a steadily staged and increasing challenge curve through each area (a tricky task), it would have fully succeeded in what it attempted to do.
It has become de rigeur for a JRPG story to confuse pretention for grandiosity, because dammit it worked for FFVII (Let's face it, the story of Jenova is just the story of Lavos from Chrono Trigger with a bunch of unnecessary cruft about lifestreams and whatnot), there are very few that actually connect us to the protagonist on a personal level like, say, Breath of Fire 3 did.
The battle system, however, is one of the best in any JRPG, and certainly the best in a Final Fantasy. It makes the most of the fact that there is no attrition to make almost every combat a meaningful challenge, usually with a solution based not on luck or brute force of levels but on understanding and manipulating the system provided to you, using the right mix of classes at the right time, and changing them in response to the flow of the battle. You might not be clicking on "attack" every round yourself, but you'll be making far more decisions than you would in any other FF game.
The problem with it is repetition, because there are quite a low number of potential encounter groups in each area the player will find themself fighting the same encounter repeatedly, and because the nature of the encounters is that they are now almost a puzzle, when you have solved the puzzle there is no need to modify your approach. Contrast that with, say, Enchanted Arms, an otherwise pretty terrible game which had a similar restoration of characters between battles, but which rationed the restoration of HP and MP (used by all attacks) by the reduction of another resource, so there was always an incentive to improve your solution to the same encounters so that you could keep fighting further towards the next save point.
Had FFXIII had either a system like that to push the player to continue thinking even in repeated encounters to refine their approach to them, or altered the encounter design to provide a steadily staged and increasing challenge curve through each area (a tricky task), it would have fully succeeded in what it attempted to do.
Well, it's a pretty good argument that the reason for the backlash was that it deviated too much from the series' template for the old fans to like it. But then again, everyone whom I know who has played it as their first FF game, including me, still thought it was crap. Then we went off and had a jolly old time with some of the old ones after we found those lying around in a store's retro section.
Haha same thing happened to me. Leant my copy of FFXIII to two friends. Both of them hated it and accused me of 'trolling their gaming experiences' (apparently that's a thing?). One of them never wants to go near the series again, but the other one of them bought FFIX and now he won't shut the fuck up about it! He said he liked FFIX over FFXIII because he didn't want to murder all the main characters. I can relate to that.jurnag12 said:
You don't do major innovation within an established and popular franchise, ever. It never works.
I can't remember if it was a Red Alert or Tiberium Wars game but when they "innovated" with the mobile bases that killed the game.
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You can't claim the people hating on CoD for not innovating back your argument either because they hate the success of CoD and the fact that people still buy it, they tend not to hate the actual game.
You can also bet everything you own on the massive shitstorm that'd absolutely occur, compared to the minor pooh flinging of those now disenchanted with CoD, if ActiBlizz ever chooses to do major innovations to it.
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If you want to innovate you do it with a brand new game, or one that isn't hilariously popular.
I can't remember if it was a Red Alert or Tiberium Wars game but when they "innovated" with the mobile bases that killed the game.
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You can't claim the people hating on CoD for not innovating back your argument either because they hate the success of CoD and the fact that people still buy it, they tend not to hate the actual game.
You can also bet everything you own on the massive shitstorm that'd absolutely occur, compared to the minor pooh flinging of those now disenchanted with CoD, if ActiBlizz ever chooses to do major innovations to it.
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If you want to innovate you do it with a brand new game, or one that isn't hilariously popular.
Thanks for writing on Final Fantasy XIII and being open about why people feel so divided over it. For what it's worth, ever since Final Fantasy became popular in America (around FF6/7, depending on who you talk to), the next one's always been a bit polarizing. Folks who liked 7 disliked 8 or 9, folks who liked 8 hated 10, folks who liked 10 hated 12, and so on down the line. I'd actually argue that 12 and 13 aren't that far off mechanically, since both had little programs for your guys and they were on some sort of auto-pilot. If anything, the menu-based system that's become ubiquitous in most JRPGs was more apparent in 13 than 12. I will agree that the legacy of the series name is troublesome. While there are some expectations for staying the same, Final Fantasy implies a somewhat new system and other innovations every game, and these innovations aren't always welcome. Basically, no game bearing Final Fantasy is ever going to be 100% accepted because we have these weird convoluted expectations. 13 and 13-2 are just the latest to bear the bulk of the grudge.
I like all of the FFs. But even I have to say that XIII was the first one I have felt dragged on a bit (rather than feeling sad when it finished).
I don't want FF to change its game-play between iterations. I want it to change the story it tells and maybe the detail of how it plays - like the difference between VII and VIII - but I actually LIKE the way they play. It doesn't need changing and it won't get "tired" so long as the stories and characters are engrossing and engaging. I think the call for progress is a red herring - just make good stories set in interesting places with great looking cut-scenes and I'll be happy...
I don't want FF to change its game-play between iterations. I want it to change the story it tells and maybe the detail of how it plays - like the difference between VII and VIII - but I actually LIKE the way they play. It doesn't need changing and it won't get "tired" so long as the stories and characters are engrossing and engaging. I think the call for progress is a red herring - just make good stories set in interesting places with great looking cut-scenes and I'll be happy...
This is what really got me. Also, I thought that "change is scary" thing was kind of a shot at people.Atmos Duality said:
I like change. I like new ideas and I like things that break out of the mould. But perhaps the 13th core installment of a long-standing traditional rpg is not the best place to do it. I'm not sure this is at all about change, it's about fans expecting an RPG series to continue to be an RPG series. This isn't unexpected. It's not unreasonable.
I have to disagree a bit with the author. While chainging the name might have reduced the hate toward it, a different title would likely have reduced sales. I enjoyed the game well enough, but some someone who still plays the older final fantasy series games, I have yet to soa complete second playthrough on XIII.
The game did change, but it wasn't as enjoyable, more so because it wasn't just that they moved away from a typical RGP, but that they moved away from it being much of a game at all. I think I would have enjoyed it more had it been a 10 episode anime. When I play a game I like to be immersed, and feel like I am doing something. The game was follow the corridor and hold down teh a button in a fight. Even the leveling was boring, since you picked one of three trees and went up it (although I will admit that the older games didn't always even have this much depth, V excluded).
The story could have been better done. I like stories where little bits of what is going on are doled out to keep you in suspense, but at times I had to go to the journal to figure out what was going on.
So, while not the worst game ever made, it wasn't the best, and a name change wasn't going to make people think this was a revolutionary game.
The game did change, but it wasn't as enjoyable, more so because it wasn't just that they moved away from a typical RGP, but that they moved away from it being much of a game at all. I think I would have enjoyed it more had it been a 10 episode anime. When I play a game I like to be immersed, and feel like I am doing something. The game was follow the corridor and hold down teh a button in a fight. Even the leveling was boring, since you picked one of three trees and went up it (although I will admit that the older games didn't always even have this much depth, V excluded).
The story could have been better done. I like stories where little bits of what is going on are doled out to keep you in suspense, but at times I had to go to the journal to figure out what was going on.
So, while not the worst game ever made, it wasn't the best, and a name change wasn't going to make people think this was a revolutionary game.
Agreed. I actually really like Zidane from FFIX, simply due to the fact that he is neither whiny nor a depressing little shit. He was just a normal guy (albiet with a tail) that liked to have a laugh and stab the crap out of wildlife. Cloud, Squall and Lightning all fall under the depressed teenager category for me, which just isn't fun to watch. Tidus and Vaan from FFXII were basically the same whiney characters. If Square Enix want to create something unique, maybe they should start giving their main characters new personalities?jurnag12 said:
All I know is I literally fell asleep while playing FF 13. I've never done that with any other game. It was the dullest experience of my life. I'd rather sit through my cousins piano rehersal. If it wasn't trying to be an RPG, that's cool; but whatever it WAS trying to be it did that really poorly.
The problem with FFXIII was not that it was different, it was that it was different and bad. I loved dissida despite the fact that it wasn't an rpg like the games all the characters were from. It also wasn't a fighting game in the traditional sense. It was new, unique, and good. FFXIII was a movie that seems to resent giving control to the player. It made a passing glance at a job system and gave you limited control over one person. I promise you if it had gone a different direction that had been a fun game at the end of the day, FFXIII would have a completely different reception.