Increasingly skinny women in video games?

Webb5432

New member
Jul 21, 2009
146
0
0
LookAtYouHacker said:
Lately I have been briefly paying attention to female characters in NEW video games (excluding the female Barbarian in Diablo 3) and nearly if not all are portrayed as physically weak.

Call me paranoid, but I think this is to somehow appeal to the modernistic ideal of beauty (skinny equals perfection); the idea that even menial/healthy amounts of fat define morbid obesity. It's not that I have some prejudice towards slender women (beauty is subjective and comes in many forms), it's the fact they're in my paranoid mind conforming to such attitudes.

Additionally, I think this is an attempt to degrade sexualisation of women.

Why do people ALWAYS equate athletic/voluptuous female figures in media with deliberate, unrealistic sexualisation? It is infuriating and ironically an unconscious form of male privilege/sexism in itself.

Some quotes from the site below which I can't respond to and make me sick.

Seneth Somed: "Being 5f9 and 100 lbs. with DDD tits is not physically perfect for anyone but a porn star. For people whose job is fighting bad guys, it is completely ludicrous."

Insomniac: "Perfect for fucking, not perfect for being. In the same way that male superheroes and action stars do not have fighting styles that consist entirely of sexual positions."

So women who are born with naturally large breasts or strive to achieve athletic figures are prostitutes just because their bodies happen to be conventionally attractive? It isn't always artificial.

Bodily structures of any kind have never correlated with sexualisation; it is HUMANS themselves who are responsible for perverting their primal image (for example breasts are biologically and were primarily mammary glands, now they are mostly portrayed as sexual objects).

Additionally have they ever considered such choices may simply be an unassuming, realistic decision pertaining to the characters environmental adaptation/physical ability within the story etc? Yeah, some may find such figures sexually attractive, but then such a reaction was not necessarily intended by the creator.

Let's take Catwoman and Poison Ivy from Batman: Arkham City. People complain about sexualisation, but fail to realise part of their original power (ESPECIALLY Poison Ivy) is utilizing their sexual appeal to dominate/deceive their attackers. Additionally, Catwoman is extremely athletic, therefore her figure is athletic (even if the proportions border on a little over-exaggerated.)

On an interesting note, despite that some people think bestowing a woman with a voluptuous body or large breasts is sexualisation, what people consider as sexually attractive is SUBJECTIVE! I have met men who find a woman with small breasts innocently attractive etc.

That is why for me the term "sexualisation" is a considerably nonsensical term when it comes to BODILY structures, as a natural sexual attraction will always be there regardless of physique.

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

This clichéd, strawman based comic strip utilizing the image of "the unassuming geek girl" is a perfect example of what I mean. She claims his idea of what constitutes male attraction is "Jack", but she is contradicting her own claim of objectification by assuming that all men are attracted to women with voluptuous figures etc. I'm not the only one who's specified this either. Oh, and some women do find muscle-men attractive.

Ironically I have been banned from this website by simply persisting in a debate with the author David Willis.

Unfortunately, he/she dismissed all of my arguments as "a list of dumb red herrings" (without addressing any), then malformed and extended one in particular (presumably because he/she couldn't respond to the others.) He/she also indirectly insinuated that I was "another sexist".

After I attempted to correct his/her misinterpretation of my message with a formal apology in the second thread (because he/she had deactivated the other due to a ?convenient? rule), I was periodically banned.

Oh well, life goes on I guess.

EDIT:

Probably the most irritating thing about such ideas, is that they?re usually purported by men.

This is something they probably think is ?favoured? by the female majority and or feminists.

First problem, they?re wrong if they believe they speak for all women; that they act as their ?unheard voice?, that all women feel oppressed regarding their claims of sexism. Idiots. Women are capable of arguing for themselves, and what they believe as "self-righteous" and "gratifying" is ironically an unconscious form of male privilege and sexism in itself.

Second problem, I?ve encountered plenty of women who are infuriated by such articles, as they indirectly insinuate that all women are asexual and shouldn?t be allowed to express sexual liberty. Women enjoy sex just as much as men (because like men, they?re human beings to.) Even though male-appeal can be blatant at times in media, the women who are complaining are not always asexual.

EDIT:

This is a comment taken from the thread, that details my original "issue" in a more relatable, alternative way.

"There is a difference between voluptuous (large breasts and hips, with or without a powerful build aside from that) and a pole with two watermelons tied to it with a few strips of electrical tape. There is tasteful and there is blatant "pandering." Where people draw the line is where you see most disagreement, but for the most part people aren't arguing about the existence of the line. Generally there's a problem when the female character looks like a supermodel or a porn star but has no redeeming qualities aside from that, especially when it comes to the story line or character arch. Then you have simply a token woman who also serves the purpose of being masturbation material. TL,DR: When the beauty is only skin deep, we have a right to complain."

Posted by user "conflictofinterests". Some very pertinent and appropriate points here.

P.S If my piece of writing provoked you, then I want you to know that in my mind you're completely entitled to your opinion and your comments are still welcome. Even If I come across comments that contain personal insults, I will still try to remain polite.

Thanks for your time.

Okay, I'm having a little trouble understanding this. Sorry, but you're very passionate about this and it kind of messes up the message in my mind.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your view is that it is okay to have athletic, voluptuous figures in media but not at the cost of people having a prejudice saying that body types like that are, well, sexist. What you are trying to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that their needs to be a balance. Women with such builds should not be any different than women with other builds, is that correct? A woman with a build like Pamela Anderson should not be judged on her appearance, and the same goes for a woman like Aria from the anime Hidan no Aria (I thought the fights were cool).

If what you are getting that is that people have changed the image of a voluptuous woman from the female sexual ideal to the female ideal of shallowness, and that a balance between both must be achieved, ideally in such a way that both views cease to apply and a woman is just a woman, no matter what she looks like, then I wholeheartedly agree.

Women should not be judged on their appearance. Period. No one else should either. And judging anyone on their appearance in any way, shape, or form should be considered wrong.

I think this is what you are getting at, but please reply to this. I'd like to know if I understood what you are saying.
 

Paragon Fury

The Loud Shadow
Jan 23, 2009
5,161
0
0
And why is judging people based on their appearance wrong exactly?

Humans are primarily visual creatures. As such most our clues and information about the outside world comes in a visual form, and that is what we most work with. In addition, the sheer volume of information we have to process in order to function means we have to make judgements based on appearances alone - to do other wise would make functioning any sort of speed impossible, not to mention dangerous. An Elcor would look fast by comparison.
 

Conn1496

New member
Apr 21, 2011
265
0
0
Seriously, IMO. It's cooler when a chick isn't flashing her stuff in my face. There's pretty, then there's slutty, and too many games play towards pervs who'll buy that crap in the first place. All in all there's only one conclusion.
>Vidya gaems.

[Edit]: IMO, Hilde from Soulcalibur is one of the best looking women in gaming, and look at how much armour she wears (Shocking for a soulcalibur game, eh?)!
 

Clearing the Eye

New member
Jun 6, 2012
1,345
0
0
Paragon Fury said:
And why is judging people based on their appearance wrong exactly?

Humans are primarily visual creatures. As such most our clues and information about the outside world comes in a visual form, and that is what we most work with. In addition, the sheer volume of information we have to process in order to function means we have to make judgements based on appearances alone - to do other wise would make functioning any sort of speed impossible, not to mention dangerous. An Elcor would look fast by comparison.
*imagines living in a world full of Elcor*

That seems quite relaxing, actually ^^

OT: I like quite thin female characters with small breasts (read: almost flat-chested). Try finding that without going into some really dark, seedy places that are full of... bad things I don't like. Where's my sex sells imagery? Huh?!
 

LookAtYouHacker

New member
Mar 18, 2012
310
0
0
Webb5432 said:
LookAtYouHacker said:
Lately I have been briefly paying attention to female characters in NEW video games (excluding the female Barbarian in Diablo 3) and nearly if not all are portrayed as physically weak.

Call me paranoid, but I think this is to somehow appeal to the modernistic ideal of beauty (skinny equals perfection); the idea that even menial/healthy amounts of fat define morbid obesity. It's not that I have some prejudice towards slender women (beauty is subjective and comes in many forms), it's the fact they're in my paranoid mind conforming to such attitudes.

Additionally, I think this is an attempt to degrade sexualisation of women.

Why do people ALWAYS equate athletic/voluptuous female figures in media with deliberate, unrealistic sexualisation? It is infuriating and ironically an unconscious form of male privilege/sexism in itself.

Some quotes from the site below which I can't respond to and make me sick.

Seneth Somed: "Being 5f9 and 100 lbs. with DDD tits is not physically perfect for anyone but a porn star. For people whose job is fighting bad guys, it is completely ludicrous."

Insomniac: "Perfect for fucking, not perfect for being. In the same way that male superheroes and action stars do not have fighting styles that consist entirely of sexual positions."

So women who are born with naturally large breasts or strive to achieve athletic figures are prostitutes just because their bodies happen to be conventionally attractive? It isn't always artificial.

Bodily structures of any kind have never correlated with sexualisation; it is HUMANS themselves who are responsible for perverting their primal image (for example breasts are biologically and were primarily mammary glands, now they are mostly portrayed as sexual objects).

Additionally have they ever considered such choices may simply be an unassuming, realistic decision pertaining to the characters environmental adaptation/physical ability within the story etc? Yeah, some may find such figures sexually attractive, but then such a reaction was not necessarily intended by the creator.

Let's take Catwoman and Poison Ivy from Batman: Arkham City. People complain about sexualisation, but fail to realise part of their original power (ESPECIALLY Poison Ivy) is utilizing their sexual appeal to dominate/deceive their attackers. Additionally, Catwoman is extremely athletic, therefore her figure is athletic (even if the proportions border on a little over-exaggerated.)

On an interesting note, despite that some people think bestowing a woman with a voluptuous body or large breasts is sexualisation, what people consider as sexually attractive is SUBJECTIVE! I have met men who find a woman with small breasts innocently attractive etc.

That is why for me the term "sexualisation" is a considerably nonsensical term when it comes to BODILY structures, as a natural sexual attraction will always be there regardless of physique.

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

This clichéd, strawman based comic strip utilizing the image of "the unassuming geek girl" is a perfect example of what I mean. She claims his idea of what constitutes male attraction is "Jack", but she is contradicting her own claim of objectification by assuming that all men are attracted to women with voluptuous figures etc. I'm not the only one who's specified this either. Oh, and some women do find muscle-men attractive.

Ironically I have been banned from this website by simply persisting in a debate with the author David Willis.

Unfortunately, he/she dismissed all of my arguments as "a list of dumb red herrings" (without addressing any), then malformed and extended one in particular (presumably because he/she couldn't respond to the others.) He/she also indirectly insinuated that I was "another sexist".

After I attempted to correct his/her misinterpretation of my message with a formal apology in the second thread (because he/she had deactivated the other due to a ?convenient? rule), I was periodically banned.

Oh well, life goes on I guess.

EDIT:

Probably the most irritating thing about such ideas, is that they?re usually purported by men.

This is something they probably think is ?favoured? by the female majority and or feminists.

First problem, they?re wrong if they believe they speak for all women; that they act as their ?unheard voice?, that all women feel oppressed regarding their claims of sexism. Idiots. Women are capable of arguing for themselves, and what they believe as "self-righteous" and "gratifying" is ironically an unconscious form of male privilege and sexism in itself.

Second problem, I?ve encountered plenty of women who are infuriated by such articles, as they indirectly insinuate that all women are asexual and shouldn?t be allowed to express sexual liberty. Women enjoy sex just as much as men (because like men, they?re human beings to.) Even though male-appeal can be blatant at times in media, the women who are complaining are not always asexual.

EDIT:

This is a comment taken from the thread, that details my original "issue" in a more relatable, alternative way.

"There is a difference between voluptuous (large breasts and hips, with or without a powerful build aside from that) and a pole with two watermelons tied to it with a few strips of electrical tape. There is tasteful and there is blatant "pandering." Where people draw the line is where you see most disagreement, but for the most part people aren't arguing about the existence of the line. Generally there's a problem when the female character looks like a supermodel or a porn star but has no redeeming qualities aside from that, especially when it comes to the story line or character arch. Then you have simply a token woman who also serves the purpose of being masturbation material. TL,DR: When the beauty is only skin deep, we have a right to complain."

Posted by user "conflictofinterests". Some very pertinent and appropriate points here.

P.S If my piece of writing provoked you, then I want you to know that in my mind you're completely entitled to your opinion and your comments are still welcome. Even If I come across comments that contain personal insults, I will still try to remain polite.

Thanks for your time.

Okay, I'm having a little trouble understanding this. Sorry, but you're very passionate about this and it kind of messes up the message in my mind.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your view is that it is okay to have athletic, voluptuous figures in media but not at the cost of people having a prejudice saying that body types like that are, well, sexist. What you are trying to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that their needs to be a balance. Women with such builds should not be any different than women with other builds, is that correct? A woman with a build like Pamela Anderson should not be judged on her appearance, and the same goes for a woman like Aria from the anime Hidan no Aria (I thought the fights were cool).

If what you are getting that is that people have changed the image of a voluptuous woman from the female sexual ideal to the female ideal of shallowness, and that a balance between both must be achieved, ideally in such a way that both views cease to apply and a woman is just a woman, no matter what she looks like, then I wholeheartedly agree.

Women should not be judged on their appearance. Period. No one else should either. And judging anyone on their appearance in any way, shape, or form should be considered wrong.

I think this is what you are getting at, but please reply to this. I'd like to know if I understood what you are saying.
All correct, my friend.
 

LordFisheh

New member
Dec 31, 2008
478
0
0
Sexualisation isn't bad in itself. Stuff like TERA I take issue with because it jerks me straight out of any kind of believably, but whatever, let them do it. It's not like they're putting ten year olds in panties or an

When was the last time you played a character who was fat, or weak, in a mainstream game? I could complain that my self-confidence has been wrecked by these unattainable macho manly ideals, except it hasn't. You could make a similar argument for all kinds of storytelling. The heroes of the Iliad make (ancient Greek) teenagers feel that they aren't good enough and will never be able to live up to them. Fantasy novels are bad too, because we all know we'll never be the chosen one. Neither will any of us ever command a starship, save the world, assemble a ragtag crew or end a war by shouting at people. And no, none of us will ever look like the ridiculously exaggerated men and women that do do those things either.

If people can't separate fantasy and reality, that's their own lookout. We manage it fine with regards to being heroes, and we can do the same with body image. Or we could, if we didn't make such a huge deal over it, to the point where it's the expected norm for a thin woman to insist she's fat.

What IS a problem with these ridiculous portrayals is that it's bad writing. It's sloppy. I don't want to see characters reduced to a pair of tits, making me feel powerful by being helpless. Neither do I want a grizzled spess mehreen with an emotional spectral running from grim to angry.

Like countless people have said, it's not that sexualisation is a problem, it's a problem when it's the only thing there is to a character. But not because it might hurt someone's feelings - because it's terrible writing.
 

LookAtYouHacker

New member
Mar 18, 2012
310
0
0
LordFisheh said:
Like countless people have said, it's not that sexualisation is a problem, it's a problem when it's the only thing there is to a character. But not because it might hurt someone's feelings - because it's terrible writing.
I agree.
 

LookAtYouHacker

New member
Mar 18, 2012
310
0
0
LordFisheh said:
Sexualisation isn't bad in itself. Stuff like TERA I take issue with because it jerks me straight out of any kind of believably, but whatever, let them do it. It's not like they're putting ten year olds in panties or an

When was the last time you played a character who was fat, or weak, in a mainstream game? I could complain that my self-confidence has been wrecked by these unattainable macho manly ideals, except it hasn't. You could make a similar argument for all kinds of storytelling. The heroes of the Iliad make (ancient Greek) teenagers feel that they aren't good enough and will never be able to live up to them. Fantasy novels are bad too, because we all know we'll never be the chosen one. Neither will any of us ever command a starship, save the world, assemble a ragtag crew or end a war by shouting at people. And no, none of us will ever look like the ridiculously exaggerated men and women that do do those things either.

If people can't separate fantasy and reality, that's their own lookout. We manage it fine with regards to being heroes, and we can do the same with body image. Or we could, if we didn't make such a huge deal over it, to the point where it's the expected norm for a thin woman to insist she's fat.

What IS a problem with these ridiculous portrayals is that it's bad writing. It's sloppy. I don't want to see characters reduced to a pair of tits, making me feel powerful by being helpless. Neither do I want a grizzled spess mehreen with an emotional spectral running from grim to angry.

Like countless people have said, it's not that sexualisation is a problem, it's a problem when it's the only thing there is to a character. But not because it might hurt someone's feelings - because it's terrible writing.
Preytell, why don't you think sexualisation isn't a bad thing in itself? Humour me.
 

ThePenguinKnight

New member
Mar 30, 2012
893
0
0
WoW Killer said:
Yes I find it increasingly silly. It's nothing really to do with weight though, it's just a consequence of weight being related to attractiveness socially. Women are made up to be attractive in games, despite how impractical that may be...

It's funny because they never seem to account for guys like me who'd find the left considerably more attractive than the right.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
6,157
0
0
LookAtYouHacker said:
I think my problem with voluptuous women in video games (I'm an F cup myself) is if that sexaulisation is the only thing about them.

Let's take Ivy from Soul Calibur for example she pretty much only there to be leered at. The other male characters have aged throughout the series while she hasn't her boobs have only gotten bigger and the other female characters have been replaced with daughters or granddaughters.

I asked my male friends whether they would buy a fighting game with 11 appropriately dressed female characters and 6 male strippers. They laughed and said no almost without thinking so why are female gamers expected to put up with that?

On the flip side there are characters like Lara Croft, strong, capable, smart. The only thing the media focused on was the fact she was portrayed with large breasts. It's an annoying instance of a woman being categorised by how she looks. So maybe with the approach of making more regular looking female characters with appropriate clothing and average bodies we can get to working on the character female protagonists without the distraction of their appearance.

This vid by moviebob explains the whole situation I feel. I'm not saying he is the be all and end all of the argument but he puts it rather well.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games
 

KrossBillNye

New member
Jan 25, 2010
186
0
0
Vault101 said:
rhizhim said:
im going to leave this here..
I never really got that far into SR3 but (this is going to sound silly) but I was a little disappointed on how it was handled story-wise

say what you want but SR2 had an interesting thing going on underneath all that silliness..SR3 became a little too self aware with the silliness
YES! Thank you! I felt the same way. I played SR and I thought ok. This game isn't bad. A few funny things to do....

Then SR2 came out and I thought ok. This game got a little bit more silly but I enjoyed the game it was a good mix.

Once I started playing SR3 my first thought after playing a few hours I thought. WTF IS THIS????

But ya SR3 provides you with the option to adjust your weight and I made a Over obese woman. I guess in a way you can portray your character ANY way you want in SR3. Which is a good thing in their book. I just found it a little too over the top.

I miss my Final Countdown from SR2....
 

maninahat

New member
Nov 8, 2007
4,397
0
0
Irridium said:
The only woman I can remember that looked like she was actually built for fighting is Hammer from Fable 2.

In fact, upon reflection, I'd say she was the best character in the game.
Hah! you reminded me of how obese my female character got from eating all those health buffing pies. Hardly the most ideal looking, but I quite like the idea of a gun fighting Dawn French saving the world.

Here is a challenge - find a female protagonist who looks over the age of 27.

I only know of one:

(The Graveyard)
 

maninahat

New member
Nov 8, 2007
4,397
0
0
LookAtYouHacker said:
LordFisheh said:
Preytell, why don't you think sexualisation isn't a bad thing in itself? Humour me.
I'll speak for him!

Sexualisation is fine in some contexts. For instance, in Skull girls or Bayonetta, sexiness is a central part to female characterisation and the cheesecake elements are played for laughs as much as titillation. Further more, they parody sexualisation too, giving us cute characters with repulsive elements (a schoolgirl with teeth growing out the back of her head, a dominatrix with giraffe legs etc). That sort of thing is fun from time to time, and you know what you're getting from the get go. The sexualisation is self-aware and justified in the context of a silly game.

There is a difference between an individual game featuring sexualised characters, and all games and all stories featuring sexualised characters. Skull Girls doesn't exist in a vacuum; it was made in an industry where almost all females are sexualised, even in the most serious of stories, and with the most implausible of justifications. A lot of people complained about Skull Girls for being sexualised, but I argue Skull Girls is fine, and that every other game is at fault. The Witcher is the best example - a game that wants to discuss serious issues and be taken as a mature fantasy story, whilst treating all the female characters as sex toys and collectable trading cards. See also: Game of Thrones.
 

LookAtYouHacker

New member
Mar 18, 2012
310
0
0
maninahat said:
LookAtYouHacker said:
LordFisheh said:
Preytell, why don't you think sexualisation isn't a bad thing in itself? Humour me.
I'll speak for him!

Sexualisation is fine in some contexts. For instance, in Skull girls or Bayonetta, sexiness is a central part to female characterisation and the cheesecake elements are played for laughs as much as titillation. Further more, they parody sexualisation too, giving us cute characters with repulsive elements (a schoolgirl with teeth growing out the back of her head, a dominatrix with giraffe legs etc). That sort of thing is fun from time to time, and you know what you're getting from the get go. The sexualisation is self-aware and justified in the context of a silly game.

There is a difference between an individual game featuring sexualised characters, and all games and all stories featuring sexualised characters. Skull Girls doesn't exist in a vacuum; it was made in an industry where almost all females are sexualised, even in the most serious of stories, and with the most implausible of justifications. A lot of people complained about Skull Girls for being sexualised, but I argue Skull Girls is fine, and that every other game is at fault. The Witcher is the best example - a game that wants to discuss serious issues and be taken as a mature fantasy story, whilst treating all the female characters as sex toys and collectable trading cards. See also: Game of Thrones.
I'll await his/her response, but thank you for your informative input. :)
 
Apr 28, 2008
14,634
0
0
maninahat said:
Irridium said:
The only woman I can remember that looked like she was actually built for fighting is Hammer from Fable 2.

In fact, upon reflection, I'd say she was the best character in the game.
Hah! you reminded me of how obese my female character got from eating all those health buffing pies. Hardly the most ideal looking, but I quite like the idea of a gun fighting Dawn French saving the world.

Here is a challenge - find a female protagonist who looks over the age of 27.

I only know of one:

(The Graveyard)
Hehe, yeah. In games, most women have the bodies of 19 year-old models. If they need an "old" look, they use a 20 year old and give her some minor wrinkles and grey hair.

Also, relevant comic [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/6848-Stolen-Pixels-148-Dragon-Aged].
 

Axyun

New member
Oct 31, 2011
207
0
0
WoW Killer said:
Yes I find it increasingly silly. It's nothing really to do with weight though, it's just a consequence of weight being related to attractiveness socially. Women are made up to be attractive in games, despite how impractical that may be...

I constantly see this image thrown about when it is in correct. The one on the left is actually wearing level 10-ish armor. Castanics with no armor have a basic panty-and-bra setup.

With that in mind I make no attempts to defend this game's hyper-sexual attire. Because, quite frankly, I like it.

Just pointing out that the image is wrong about the clothing, but not about the sex-appeal.
 

SAMAS

New member
Aug 27, 2009
337
0
0
I don't mind sexy female characters (honestly, I like 'em too) or male characters. I do however dislike it when it's completely blatant (in the "Trying too hard" sense) in general and Chainmail Bikinis in particular.