Iowa parents defend bullying of autistic teen

Nyaliva

euclideanInsomniac
Sep 9, 2010
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Going by what's in the article, I can sort of understand where the parents are coming from but I still don't agree. They think that because the kid called other kids names, he should suffer the consequences. However, there are two holes in this logic: 1) The parents don't understand Aspergers (and frankly, nor do I) so they can't condemn the child for a social faux pas, and 2) they ignore the fact that violence was involved. Despite the ill effects of verbal bullying, violence should never be tolerated. To put it blankly, I don't think the parents are right but I don't have all the facts.

Frankly, the one thing that actually properly appalls me is the Principal's response. Do teacher's have no power in social matters anymore? He said that it's up to the children to react to the cases and stand up for kids who can't stand up for themselves. Does he have ANY understanding of children?! Not only is it a ludicrous idea to encourage kids to get involved in cases of bullying, or even expect that any of them will, but to impart any kind of onus on CHILDREN for situations that even some ADULTS find impossible to act sensibly in, is completely barmy! And do you know why some adults still bully and react irrationally to social situations? Because they weren't taught properly about how to act as a child because none of the teachers could tell them NOT TO DO IT!

Bullying is one of those things that is impossible to prevent 100% and people have taken that to mean that there's no point in fighting it, which is wrong.

As a side note, the number of people on any website that have Aspergers, I believe, is due to the ease with which people with Aspergers find social interaction over the internet when compared to real life. Not to mention, many of them would stay home and play video games rather than play with friends outside. So yes, the percentage of people with Aspergers on this site, and the internet in general, will most likely be higher than you might expect.
 

Cid Silverwing

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Jul 27, 2008
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Lieju said:
Well, I have been diagnosed with Aspergers, and I was bullied in school.
The teacher's response was to make me see the school psychologist (although I'm not sure if she was an actual psychologist) who asked me, "Have you though of being more normal?" and "What do you think you can do to not be bullied?"
That is just unprofessional at best and fucking disgusting at worst. That woman is definitely not an actual psychologist.

OT: Details are very vague on this, so it's hard to comment. It bears remembering, however, that social ineptitude and subsequent ignorance of it varies with each autist. Some have it mild, some are so affected that they are barely even sentient (don't ask me for examples, go Google it).
 

Tiamattt

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PsychicTaco115 said:
"But ultimately, it's got to come down to the kids to take ownership for this and to stand up for the kids who can't stand up for themselves."
Um... You sure about that?

OT: Evidence unclear, need moar! And who the hell is proud that someone punched another person?
Yeah I love that quote from the principal. Mainly because if kids do stand up for someone being bullied they end up getting suspended for "starting trouble".

Anyway it's the same sad story.

Every parent think their kids are perfect little angels that can do no wrong despite all the evidence in the world that they're the ones causing trouble.(not talking about this case where the evidence is lacking, just in general)

Schools are too afraid of lawsuits to really punish kids for bullying, so they sit on their hands and hope everyone survives long enough to graduate without the media noticing.

And then we eventually get another teen suicide that gets people's attention for a bit to demand change that never happens, and the cycle begins all over again.
 

Belaam

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I have encountered a "high functioning" student who started fights, threatened bodily harm, threatened to rape other students, constantly insulted other students, and in high school were still regularly doing things like running into the middle of an existing basketball or soccer game, grabbing the ball and running off. This was all pretty much hand waved as being part of the student's condition, but I was always amazed no one ever caught him after school and beat the snot out of him.

The problem strikes me as more about forcing kids into regular classrooms when their conditions really don't allow that to work well. I mean, if you tell one girl "You'll get what's coming to you at break" and her friend "I would love to rape you" and literally the next day are confused as to why they don't want to work in a group with you, you probably shouldn't be in the general population. But the school also probably doesn't have the money to set you up in a room by yourself.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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lacktheknack said:
Besides, the article notes that he called someone "a nasty name". Maybe I just don't understand Asperger's, but I'm assuming that you're aware enough of bad language, difficult situations and the like to avoid calling someone something vile enough that they immediately punch you in the face.
You highlight it yourself: assume.

First off, you don't understand Aspergers.

But I will point out that Apsergers, like other Autistic Spectrum Disorders, don't have a single level of comprehension. Some autistics are more self-aware than others, even within similar categorisations. Some people with Aspergers are significant more functional than others.

Now, based on that, I can't preclude that he did know that the nasty name he used was wrong. I mean, in every walk of life, some people are just dicks. But I've worked with autistic people before, and the notion that he was parroting a word is far more likely. Hell, at 13 I've heard neurotypical folks do the same thing. For that matter, I had to defend my brother at 9 because he used the word '******' without understanding the ramifications. It was partially my fault. I listened to a lot of West Coat Gangsta Rap by the time 1990 came around.

It's reasonable to say "we don't know what he knew."

It's unreasonable to say "he surely must have known better" or anything in the ballpark.

And even then, it's still a long walk to 'he deserved to get punched in the face,' which is what opened this can o' worms.

Now, I know you're not saying the third line, and even the second doesn't apply to your directly. But these are the issues going in. Autistic folk often have a very childlike mindset[footnote]simplified statement, but I'm neither a qualified professional nor do I have the drive to detail my understanding[/footnote]. That means both the kid might have lacked the understanding (possibly parroting like a lot of kids do), and that they may well have been attacking someone with the mindset of a young kid. Seriously, even if he did know that's uncool.

At the same time....

lacktheknack said:
If that many parents are coming forth and saying "I'm pretty sure its mostly because he's an asshole", then the kid in question is probably an asshole.
Because people are so well-versed on ASD and so tolerant that this must be true?

Wonder how you feel about kids with Tourette Syndrome getting beat up. Even the ones without coprolalia (Which is most of them, the stereotype of TS sufferers screaming profanity and the like is way overblown) can come off as jerks.

I bet you could get a hundred people to call someone with TS an asshole, too.

Are you doing anything other than justifying a mob mentality, really?
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Lieju said:
Well, I have been diagnosed with Aspergers, and I was bullied in school.
The teacher's response was to make me see the school psychologist (although I'm not sure if she was an actual psychologist) who asked me

"Have you though of being more normal?" and "What do you think you can do to not be bullied?"
I got similar, though I don't have aspergers. Side note: Firefox thinks that should be raspberry.

Anyway, I don't have aspergers, but I was diagnosed with OCD and ADHD. Even medicated, I have a few tics. They've only gotten worse over the years, but I used to get shit for things beyond my control.

One of my favourites has nothing to do with disorders, however. I'm 6'5". I was always big for my age, and early on kids discovered that if they attacked me, it was win-win. If I didn't defend myself, I got my ass kicked. If I did defend myself, I was always treated as the aggressor. Without fail. Because the bigger person is always the aggressor, after all.

And since anxiety worsens my behavioural issues (tics/compulsions), things only got worse. So when people asked me why I didn't just act normal, I kind of wanted to scream.


Reading social situations can be difficult, though. Calling someone nasty names can be totally acceptable in some social context, and in some not. Also lot depends on who is using what words. Using a slur is generally for example more acceptable if you belong to the group you're insulting.
I know I did mistakes like that a lot in that age (as would any kid, Aspergers or no) and used language I would use with family when I really shouldn't have.
The weird thing about this is we've all been there, autistic or not. I'm not trying to downplay autism and aspergers, but rather to point out why on some level, the neurotypical should be able to identify and relate with this sort of thing, rather than say "yeah, I'm proud of him!"

Or even "he had it coming." That seems to be the logic here.

And maybe he is an asshole, yeah, but people are really quick to assume he is one.
 

Feedmeketamine

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Sep 29, 2013
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What bothers me most is that the principal said that it is the students' responsibility to handle cases of bullying, 13 year old kids can be pretty cruel, and what with the tribalism i found in school I dont think hes being a good principal,
IF its true that the kid is agressive and gets bullied because of it then the principal should still try to do SOMETHING like send the kid with aspergers to a school for people with problems like that or get severe with the bullies

Also the parents defending their kids bullying just looks like parents sticking up for their kids when they should stfu, let them face the consequences of being a bullying shithead and let them fight their own battles. Seems to me like the principal is getting browbeating into putting up with this crap because hes afraid of the parents.

The principal appears to be the biggest tosser in this situation though, parents will naturally defend their kids, whatever crazy fucked up shit they pull (remember that case where this town decided to go all hush hush about the highschool football team gangraping some poor girl?)

On a personal note one of my biggest regrets is joining in on taking this piss out of this kid who looking back probably was autistic to some degree. Id try to be nice to him one on one cos i felt sorry and he was a nice guy but i was still laughing with the rest when he said something weird in class. Kinda like the one guy at the back laughing and jeering but thinking to himself "man this is a bit fucked up" whilst jesus got nailed to a cross.
 

Jodah

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Aug 2, 2008
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One of my friends has Aspergers. He was bullied in high school by a few people but most of us just treated him like everyone else. We wouldn't pull punches so to speak regarding certain quirks. But we also wouldn't go out of our way to insult him or anything. In other words we would treat him like anyone else, no cruelty but no special treatment either. We still hang out pretty regularly.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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Zachary Amaranth said:
At the same time....

lacktheknack said:
If that many parents are coming forth and saying "I'm pretty sure its mostly because he's an asshole", then the kid in question is probably an asshole.
Because people are so well-versed on ASD and so tolerant that this must be true?

Wonder how you feel about kids with Tourette Syndrome getting beat up. Even the ones without coprolalia (Which is most of them, the stereotype of TS sufferers screaming profanity and the like is way overblown) can come off as jerks.

I bet you could get a hundred people to call someone with TS an asshole, too.

Are you doing anything other than justifying a mob mentality, really?
Huh... are you remembering the time long ago that I told people I have TS? Hmm. If so, your memory is terrifying, and if not, then you accidentally took a heck of a blind shot.

Attacking kids with Tourette's Syndrome because they have Tourette's Syndrome is obviously a Certifiably Bad Idea. But the thing is, Tourette's sufferers aren't analogous with Asperger's sufferers, because there's lots of utilizable coping techniques we have available to us. "Tic Transfer", for instance, is a method of literally replacing our worse tics (say, howled swears [the stat, by the way, is less than 1% of sufferers have this tic, or one in a hundred thousand people]) with something hidden (foot twitching) or at least inoffensive (I'm currently suffering a round of head tossing, for instance), reinforced with repetition and constant awareness. Concentration, for another, tends to override tics, as your brain is busy. That kind of thing.

Because I know and have experienced these things, I do hold fellow Tourette's sufferers up to a higher standard. An asshole who declares "It's because I have Tourette's" is just an asshole with Tourette's, unless they're currently "transitioning" their more offensive tics.

Suppression is possible, just hard.

On that note, if I have underestimated the social obliviousness of Asperger's sufferers (as I appear to have done), then my apologies and I'm less on the side of the parents. It still seems strange to me that so many parents don't understand the mental state of someone they seem to interact with fairly often.

We can't really know, can we.
 

blackrave

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Mar 7, 2012
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On one hand I consider kids to be like iron ore
You often need to to do horrible things to iron ore before it is made into something useful
Not because you hate iron, but because it is the only way

On the other hand I don't think anyone have rights to physically/mentally attack anyone without extremely good reason

On the third hand starting to consider EVERYTHING when dealing with assholes is impossible
Lets take for example hypothetical situation
You come across your best friend lying on the ground and 4 drunk people just keep kicking him/her
Possible solutions?
a)Maybe douchebagA had abusive parent in childhood, while douchebagB is mentally ill, at the same time douchebagC was bullied in school by someone who looks like your best friend, and douchebagD was sexually abused by someone and was insulted by bad/snarky joke you best friend made. So lets be sensitive and call police and ambulance. After they are arrested, healing therapy can begin. Also lets try to distract them by talking to them. Most probably you will join your friend, and at the time police arrives you both will be killed/permanently damaged, but who cares? You did the right thing and can be proud of yourself. Doesn't matter that you and your friend will be crippled or even dead after all this. You had the high ground. Right?
[If you are the person who would pick this option I applause to your dedication, but sadly I'm convinced that proving point is useless if you end up dead, so my solution to this situation would be]
b)you take glass bottle from near dumpster. You smack douchebagA's head with said bottle, then you shove douchebagB into douchebagC, and threaten douchebagD with bottleneck that left from bottle. Meanwhile you use the confusion caused by your attack and help your friend to get back on the feet. Then you both run.

On the fourth hand it would be perfect if we could be sensitive even to those who insult us and attack us, if diplomacy would always work and if we would speak right words enemies could become friends.

On the fifth hand we don't live in the perfect world, we live in shitty real world. In this world diplomacy can work only if someone is willing to listen to us, and that often isn't the case.

On the sixth hand... ehm, what I was talking about, again?
Oh yes bullying- emotional bullying is ok, by my book, physical isn't.
Because every person can be equally emotionally cruel

P.S. Man, that's a lot of hands O_O
 

Phrozenflame500

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Dec 26, 2012
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Not nearly enough context in the article. The parents imply some sort of unmentioned incident or repeated behaviour by the kid that they consider justifiable for abuse. We also don't know what the video actually entails aside from a few vague references.

The article seems to be link-baiting for controversy IMO.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

Anime Nerds Unite
Apr 25, 2013
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This is absolutely disgusting to me as both a person with Aspergers and as a human in general. These kids and parents seem to treat the victim as nothing as a showcase or a lesser. It's quite pathetic to think that the actions we do are entirely in our control when really,we sometimes suffer from bluntness, emotional detachment and social difficulty with no incentive on our own. Do you think that we want to live like we don't fully understand what normal people think and feel and or that we want to live isolated by the world around us.

As for the Teachers, it's not "kids have to fend for themselves" it's utter incompetence and laziness. Yes, kids have to be able to rely on themselves at times but this isn't one of them. No where on earth is this acceptable or even necessary for people. There is a way to help people like us but to shun them will only send them into a deeper hole.

The only thing equivalent to this is what people with autism go through in Japan; there is a reason why otakus and hikkikomori display similarities to autistics.

I hope people that shun and humiliate us can suffer the same way many of us can; unable to form connections, feeling like the world is against us, lost in a cold void.

(sorry about the rant, i shouldn't be like this since i'm only 19 but I've become more cynical and hateful of people since high school dealing with so much idiocy and weak willed people who only want to indulge in hedonism.)
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Apr 25, 2013
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littlealicewhite said:
lacktheknack said:
"He called my nephew a nasty name, and my nephew Cole cocked (sic) him in the mouth," resident Jamie Harrison wrote to the station. "I'm proud of my nephew for doing that."

This kind of puts it in perspective, really.

If that many parents are coming forth and saying "I'm pretty sure its mostly because he's an asshole", then the kid in question is probably an asshole. Having Asperger's Syndrome does not give you free reign to be an evil little twat. And people may be stupid, but if a hundred of them come out and say the same thing, they probably know what's going on better than you or I.
I have, on multiple occasions in my life, accidentally insulted someone before. I was completely unaware that what I did or said could be construed as rude, it simply never crossed my mind as possible. It's a very common problem for people with Aspergers.

Yes, he could have been a dick on purpose. Having Aspergers does not absolve someone of being an asshole if it's intentional. But I question whether the referenced behavior that 'brought this on him' was meant to be insulting or if it was a misunderstanding.
Speaking from experience, we sometimes are stuck in a situation where we have to lash out in defense of ourselves and at others, we simply are not good with understanding social constructs and are far too blunt for our own good
 

Khanht Cope

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Jul 22, 2011
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I have Asperger Syndrome. 2 things:

1) First thing that disgusts me about some of the discourse is people automatically taking "he deserved it" from bullies as a remotely credible part of the equation. The universal truth about any bullies in life is that they can casually and emotionlessly beat 14 helpless victims within an inch of their lives for no better reason than that they felt like it; but if one of those victims feet were to inadvertently clash with the shin of the bully as they were falling to a flurry of heavy punches to the head; the bully would be shocked, appalled and enraged; and the victim would require additional and considerably more severe harm to correct them back into their place in the equilibrium that exists in the head of the bully.

When a gang of 30 nasty and aggressive people come across a quiet lone person of slender build walking past innocuously; the unprovoked abuse that person gets from any members (no matter how few) is a proportionate and fair transaction reinforced by the entire group that the lone person has brought upon themselves by virtue of not being over 6 foot tall, strong, armed and backed by 29 hardened groupies of their own. If the victim were to assert themselves in anyway (even if just by an expression) against this abuse; instead of the correct reaction of meek victimization with no hope of recourse; then the appropriate response for this gang is for all 30 of them to then stamp the brains of this one person into the kerb.

This is the mentality of a bully.

2) They should probably pull the guy out of state education anyway is my suggestion. Firstly because public schools are shit and teach you almost nothing in the way of marketable skills in more than a decade that you couldn't learn in 6 months with the right tutoring in the right environment. Secondly because people with AS need far more in the way of personalized teaching and study support than they have any shred of a hope of getting from being in a class of 30+ who may or may not rip into them and their emotional health for shits and giggles.

Whether it's home-schooling or private tutoring, find some other solution for their education if possible. Leaving them to languish in public schools is like leaving them in an educational prison. That's advice I'd give that I never got myself. At least in America, people have some chance of being diagnosed quite early, and the hope the arises from that. In the UK there's basically no such thing as high functioning autism, and these people have to figure out how they're going to get by under the understanding that they're normal.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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May 15, 2010
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I'm going to go ahead and say the context isn't there enough to judge the situation. I've dealt with AS kids before and possibly am one (never diagnosed but also showed a lot of the signs so its possible) and they can be difficult. Its hard to call bullying when you have someone who is socially backward and offensive to a lot of folk around him/her. I mean I did say a lot of crap as a child/teen that got me into hot water just as much as I was bullied... I've since learned to *ahem* deal with myself and tone down my knee-jerk responses to people. But yeah I did get "cocked in the mouth" for shit I said.
That being said it isn't up to the rest of the world to dictate whether this is bullying because the news media is known for not being able to report a story in context. Sensational journalism is the new norm and any way you can edit a story to make it sound worse is the standard. Why we continue to listen to these jackass "news" journalists is beyond me. They rarely get it right, they just report it how they want us to see it. That isn't journalism, thats selective writing.
 

Atmos Duality

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lacktheknack said:
I'm going to trust the school board disciplined the right kids adequately.
In my experience, midwest school districts vary greatly in "adequate discipline".
Either they're motivated by paranoia and reputation, or they're incredibly incompetent.

I can only imagine the added difficulty with any form of autism thrown into the mix.
 

DataSnake

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blackrave said:
On one hand I consider kids to be like iron ore
You often need to to do horrible things to iron ore before it is made into something useful
Not because you hate iron, but because it is the only way
You'd be surprised. Positive parenting [http://www.positive-parents.org/] generates much better results than you might expect.
On the third hand starting to consider EVERYTHING when dealing with assholes is impossible
Lets take for example hypothetical situation
You come across your best friend lying on the ground and 4 drunk people just keep kicking him/her
Possible solutions?
Bad analogy. The kid wasn't assaulting anyone; he was, if we take the other kid's parents' word for it, "calling someone a nasty name". There's an old saying about sticks and stones that springs to mind in this situation.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
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Stu35 said:
Bullying is wrong.

I don't know enough about this specific incident to be able to comment on it.

What I want to comment on is the number of people on this forum who have Aspergers, or some form of Autism. It's something I've noticed in other threads, and it's occured to me again in this thread.

It's a very, very high number of people.

I find that interesting.

I appreciate this post doesn't add a whole lot of value, but it's something I'm considering for discussion, just thinking how to frame the beginnings of said discussion.
It's the internet in general, especially geeky sites like this that are a little away from the main places like facebook and twitter. Despite using autism as an insult, a very high number of people will crawl out of the woodwork to talk about their autism or Aspergers on sites like 4chan, it tends to be higher than the norm on many of the internets more geeky or niche websites.

It's partially because of the nature of the condition itself. These conditions often cause those with them to be very literal-minded, high functioning people and those who were diagnosed early with it can usually catch it, but lower functioning people with the condition tend to have a harder time catching things like metaphor, sarcasm, word play, and other subtle forms of speech. Text based discussion is much harder to convey these kinds of things, so they often get cut out completely, this sometimes attracts autistic people because it gives them a form of communication where they don't have to worry as much about missing communication cues. The editing features and the typing format also allow for more forethought, so a person who has trouble communicating in speech or in person can more easily make their thoughts known. Coincidentally, this is part of the reason that people with depression or social anxiety spend more time on the internet as well.

Another reason is that autism and aspergers can sometimes express symptoms of monomania. In other words, obsessive behavior and very detailed focus on a single subject tends to be more common in those with autism and aspergers, and sites like this attract the more dedicated types of gamers, those with a dedicated focus to the hobby. That isn't to say that's a bad thing or that all people with autism are completely obsessive, but it does tend to crop up more often. Dedicated fan communities tend to have more people with these conditions, the deeper you get into the culture itself.

And finally, people gravitate towards these types of sites because they can offer shelter to those that feel like social outcasts. People with autism and aspergers can face quite a bit of ridicule in face to face conversations, the internet, and geek websites like this can sometimes act as a meeting point for people that don't quite fit in to mainstream society. An autistic person who is unsure or mocked in real life because of their condition is more likely to find a sympathetic ear in places like this. In this respect, it is kind of a bandwagon effect, a few people come together and commiserate their experiences, and then those people draw other similar people towards them.

Of course, other factors apply too, look at how many gay and transgender people come out of the woodwork for threads related to them, the number may seem higher in this thread because specific threads tend to draw those who relate to the situation the most. There's also the way that Autism and aspergers have been hot button issues for a few years now, and some people may be self-diagnosing themselves with aspergers without actually being tested for it, sort of like how ADD got massively over-diagnosed in the 90's and early 2000's.

Unfortunately, there is no simple, easy answer, because it's not just this site, pretty much any geeky or fan website has a pretty good number of people like that posting on them, the internet in general tends to attract the socially awkward of all stripes.