Iron-Blooded Orphans - Gundam, anime, and child soldiers

PapaGreg096

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crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
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crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
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PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
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crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
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PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
Blah blah blah AZ was more fun than IBO so far. You can disagree, but that's my opinion. Slaine ended up effective, I enjoyed Inaho blinding people with SCIENCE, and Asseylum legit made her own plays.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
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crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
Blah blah blah AZ was more fun than IBO so far. You can disagree, but that's my opinion. Slaine ended up effective, I enjoyed Inaho blinding people with SCIENCE, and Asseylum legit made her own plays.
So Mikiuzki use tactics and environments to fight his opponents, also its not like the Gundam is that OP or superpowered if you watch the series, the mech isn't that much powerful compared to the crap they mass produce.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
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PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
Blah blah blah AZ was more fun than IBO so far. You can disagree, but that's my opinion. Slaine ended up effective, I enjoyed Inaho blinding people with SCIENCE, and Asseylum legit made her own plays.
So Mikiuzki use tactics and environments to fight his opponents, also its not like the Gundam is that OP or superpowered if you watch the series, the mech isn't that much powerful compared to the crap they mass produce.
Wut? Gundams are usually much more powerful than the enemy mass produced mobile suits. That's actually one of the things I liked about IBO out of the box, the Gundam's an antique that's almost more trouble than it's worth. I thought that was cool.
 

PapaGreg096

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crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
Blah blah blah AZ was more fun than IBO so far. You can disagree, but that's my opinion. Slaine ended up effective, I enjoyed Inaho blinding people with SCIENCE, and Asseylum legit made her own plays.
So Mikiuzki use tactics and environments to fight his opponents, also its not like the Gundam is that OP or superpowered if you watch the series, the mech isn't that much powerful compared to the crap they mass produce.
Wut? Gundams are usually much more powerful than the enemy mass produced mobile suits. That's actually one of the things I liked about IBO out of the box, the Gundam's an antique that's almost more trouble than it's worth. I thought that was cool.
No I'm saying the gap isn't that between Gundams and normal mobile suits in this series isn't that big
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
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PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
PapaGreg096 said:
crimson5pheonix said:
gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Orga and Kudelia are easily the most boring characters in the show. And their hair is distracting. [https://youtu.be/VPb7mFq55Zw?t=1m35s] I want to follow Akihiro more.
Yeah, he's not bad either, I guess. I think the thing to take away from all this is that Mikazuki is THE WORST.
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
Seriously Mikazuki is worse then Inhao, at least Mikazuki has emotions at least Mikazuki doesn't have all the answers and has stregnths and weaknesses
I've seen the shonen idiot hero trope pulled before, Mikazuki is boring to me (so far).

gandhi the peacemake said:
crimson5pheonix said:
We'll see, because the show is taking a more interesting direction now. But yes, based on what we've seen so far, he's a worse Inaho [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Inaho_Kaizuka] (I also consider Kudelia a worse Asseylum [http://aldnoahzero.wikia.com/wiki/Asseylum_Vers_Allusia] for now and was looking at IBO as a bad copy of AZ).
I've heard the comparisons to Aldnoah Zero, too. I've only seen the first few minutes of the first episode, but I can see why people would make the comparison.

Kudelia confounds me. She's a lot like Mikazuki in that she starts out really interesting - a sociopolitical activist who's already managed to negotiate the economic freedom of Mars? whaaaaat - but instantly becomes a nothing character. Like, she becomes a... housewife? Almost all of her scenes (as of episode 13, I haven't seen 14 yet and don't really have the desire) with the Tekkadan she learns how to become a traditional lover/mother/sister figure to everyone, and it's just. so. boring. And the few scenes where she DOES have to be politically engaged, she's an insecure waif. What happened to the girl who WON RIGHTS FOR AN ENTIRE PLANET!?!?!?!?

Her caretaker's cool, though. Also super shady from the get-go, and if what I hear about episode 14 is true, it is totally unsurprising what happens with her.
Having seen the entire show, there are quite a few parallels between the characters and background. Inaho in AZ was fun though because he beat borderline super robots with simple physics.
Except Mikizuki isn't an idiot hero, hes uneducated sure but he is far from stupid, Inhao is pretty much a MAry Tzu, his plans always work and hes barely challenged if at all. Mikizuki at least has some sort of arc and is currently in some kind of character development
NOW Mikazuki is, which is why I'm being nicer to the show. The first 10 or so episodes though were boring. Inaho may have almost always been right, but his plans were admittedly simple before he got a calculator attached to his brain.
Wait how is Miziki now an idiot hero
No, he's only now developing as a character. The first 10 episodes just come across as a shonen ripoff of AZ.
Yeah because Aldnoah is the first anime where Earth and Space Colonies are in a tense relations also IBO does it much better and more mature since they actually delve in the topic of war vs scratch the surface.
That wasn't the part they were seemingly copying. It was the emotionless protagonist with the macguffin lady and the wannabe Char on the other side. Technically we're watching Gundam Wing again, but whatever. I found AZ to be fun because FUCK GUNDAMS, mass produced mobile suits all the way!

IBO though, I had been predicting accurately until episode 12 or 13, because until then it was generic.
At least the emotionless character has reasons why hes stoic and is pretty much explored, everyone knows that the macguffin lady is alive and both sides are trying to kill her, and the wannabe char actually does crap and not act like a little ***** all the time.
Blah blah blah AZ was more fun than IBO so far. You can disagree, but that's my opinion. Slaine ended up effective, I enjoyed Inaho blinding people with SCIENCE, and Asseylum legit made her own plays.
So Mikiuzki use tactics and environments to fight his opponents, also its not like the Gundam is that OP or superpowered if you watch the series, the mech isn't that much powerful compared to the crap they mass produce.
Wut? Gundams are usually much more powerful than the enemy mass produced mobile suits. That's actually one of the things I liked about IBO out of the box, the Gundam's an antique that's almost more trouble than it's worth. I thought that was cool.
No I'm saying the gap isn't that between Gundams and normal mobile suits in this series isn't that big
They're not super robots, but they range from "can take a dozen mobile suits" to "taking entire bases by themselves". They really are normally that strong. IBO is the weird one where the Gundam has to duel single plain mobile suits.
 

Gatlank

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Heero though, we can basically accurately label him a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, because he could basically do no wrong, despite having the emotional depth of a spoon.
Don't forget Kira "literally Jesus" Yamato from Seed.

crimson5pheonix said:
They're not super robots, but they range from "can take a dozen mobile suits" to "taking entire bases by themselves". They really are normally that strong. IBO is the weird one where the Gundam has to duel single plain mobile suits.
Isn't that also an effect of the growth of the pilot? With some exceptions at the start many Gundams strenght rely on the unit itself and as the series progress and the pilot matures his experience suplants the "obsolence" of the unit.
In the One Year War the RX-78 was practically obsolete mid serie.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Gatlank said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Heero though, we can basically accurately label him a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, because he could basically do no wrong, despite having the emotional depth of a spoon.
Don't forget Kira "literally Jesus" Yamato from Seed.

crimson5pheonix said:
They're not super robots, but they range from "can take a dozen mobile suits" to "taking entire bases by themselves". They really are normally that strong. IBO is the weird one where the Gundam has to duel single plain mobile suits.
Isn't that also an effect of the growth of the pilot? With some exceptions at the start many Gundams strenght rely on the unit itself and as the series progress and the pilot matures his experience suplants the "obsolence" of the unit.
In the One Year War the RX-78 was practically obsolete mid serie.
Yes, some of the Gundams are like that and some aren't. UC series tend to follow that logic while the others tend not to. But in either case the Gundams tend to start off as super prototypes. Sometimes the regular suits catch up to them eventually.
 

Tanis

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Uh, isn't the the same for almost ALL the series?

I mean, come on, Gundam Wing was a group of TERRORISTS who MEANT to do TERRORIZING as their whole goal.
It might as well have been called Gundam Wing: Terrorists Watch.

Then there's 00 which had a lead that was basically part 'The Lords Army: Middle East Edition'.
Etc/etc/etc.
 

Obey

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gandhi the peacemake said:
Just one thing I wanted to talk about, and see what people think on the matter. Quoting from another forum I frequent:

EDIT:

So one thought on the third episode, kind of refining my point above: There's a lot of glorification of the child soldier in this show, and (I've slowly come to see) in mainstream (shounen?) anime overall. Youth violence is glamourized... And judging by how positive the reaction to it is, it seems many people both in Japan and outside seem to share this sentiment. It's understandable that kids/teens will be attracted to it, but the older ones among us should be approaching this with a bit more... trepidation, no? Apprehension? I say this with the ongoing suicide epidemic in Japan in mind. Perhaps that and this culture of encouraging youth militantism have some relation...? I'm no expert on said culture, obviously, and I'm not even sure if I'm thinking about the right things in the right frames of mind, so for now it's just a thought, an untestable hypothesis. From what I understand, the rate of youth suicide in Japan is especially alarming.

But it still remains that the show (and its fans) doesn't cast its commentary in the other direction, either.

I dunno. Anyway. Ten more to go.
Since that post, I've caught up on the episodes, but the show still shifts wildly for me from good solid writing to the dullest Gundam cliches. It, and the majority of Gundam really, is nothing I could ever recommend as good anime or just good entertainment in general. It's certainly no Macross Delta, which also just premiered (its prologue episode) and has generally left a stronger impression on me.

Anyway. Feel free to discuss and/or discredit, all.
Youth violence is glamorized? Maybe in battle-shounen genre like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Fairy Tail, etc. but even the "glamorized" violence are relevant to the world the characters live in. Please note that many shounen actions are set in different world with different values and I think the audiences are well aware of that. Heck, the Strawhat pirate (the MCs) from One Piece rarely kill any bad guys. But in Gundam shows, they don't glamorize or glorified the fact that teenagers are cold-blooded and killing people. In fact, those shows painted the likes of Heero Yuy, Soran Ibrahim (Setsuna's real name) & Mikazuki as tragic characters who need guidance to get out of their initial condition or at least get a better view about people and how the world works. The only things that is glamorized is the giant robots and how they fight. And let me refresh your memory: in episode 3 of IBO when Mika killed members of the CGS 1st squad, that scene was depicted as dark, gloomy, painful and disturbing. There?s no glamour in that scene whatsoever. Even the atmosphere of the duel between Mika & Crank feels heavy, tragic and painful for the audience coz we know that both fighters are essentially good people. How can you still call that glamorizing?

There's a reason why anime is divided into so many genres: because they're different. Battle-shounen genre like Naruto & Bleach that "glamorizes" killing techniques are not the same as real-robot mecha genre like Gundam who portrayed the cruelty of war and its effect on the main characters? psyche as its main theme. Yes, the fights in Gundam sometimes made to be flashy, but that's more to promote the sales of model kits, figures and video games, not to promote war or militant teenagers. You need to understand that (company that backs the Gundam franchise still needs to make money after all). Also, you seem to relate this show with youth suicide? What?s that has got to do with IBO? Anime rarely (if ever) make or caused a person to commit suicide unless the person is already mentally-challenged from the start. See the successful Japanese adults nowadays? They grew up watching "violent" animes & tokusatsu shows in the 60s,70s,80s & 90s where censorship wasn't as intense as today. How come they didn't kill themselves or became militant desperados?

As for you comparing Macross & Gundam. Again, anime is varied. Even within their own genre, two shows can be very different to each other. Macross franchise as a whole is one cheese-fest where culture is the main theme. It's bright, colorful and we have idols as part of the main characters (MCs) where the story centered on them. It's a world where war and conflict can be ended with the power of songs (with a little help of the military VFs aka. giant robots) so much that its creator, Shoji Kawamori, in an interview said that he regretted that (in SDF Macros series & Macross DYRL movie) the final battle still needs to be won with weapons. He wanted to make the story where the battle and war can be won mainly with the power of songs (ala Macross 7 and, to a certain extend, Macross Frontier). On the other hand, with various Gundam series, most of the main premises of the shows are to present the cruelty of war as is. It's a grey area filled with people who are scarred or screwed up mentally or physically or both. Gundam does not have pretty settings where we can have cheerful idols MCs fighting for their career, and it doesn't want to be that way either. It's a gloomy and brooding show by intention. Even when Gundam has actual idol characters like Lacus & Meer (Gundam SEED/Destiny) who are popular within their universe for their songs, it's no more than a fraction of background info within the larger war main-plot. This is not a biased assessment (at least I tried my hardest not to be biased here) coz I'm actually a fan of both Macross & Gundam. Yes, it's very much possible to like both once you realized that both franchise offer different things and have different appeals. If Macross is Superman then Gundam is the Batman of the real-robot mecha subgenre.

And for your comment about majority of Gundam not being a good anime.... well, if Gundam is not a good anime and entertainment, there's no way it will be as popular as it is now (for 30+ years) and there's no way many other anime since the first Mobile Suit Gundam series would be inspired and copying its formula to various degrees. Gundam helped shaped modern mecha anime (away from the super-robot formula) so much that it unintentionally started the mecha subgenre which now called "real-robot". Without Gundam, there'll be no Evangelion, Code Geass, Patlabor, etc.
 
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Why such a defensive tone? It seems I've struck a nerve. Well, you make some perfectly valid points; I don't think they rebut my argument (insofar as I have one; like I said, a lot of this is just a sort of thought exercise, an untested hypothesis), but they're valid points all the same.

Obey said:
even the "glamorized" violence are relevant to the world the characters live in. Please note that many shounen actions are set in different world with different values and I think the audiences are well aware of that.
I'm well aware of suspension of disbelief: the ability of the audience to accept that the world of the story operates on different rules than our own. However, this ability is limited, perhaps more limited than audiences like to think. Those worlds are themselves relevant to our world, with our multitudinous value sets; they do not exist in a vacuum, even though we might assume and treat them as if they do.

But in Gundam shows, they don't glamorize or glorified the fact that teenagers are cold-blooded and killing people. ... The only things that is glamorized is the giant robots and how they fight.
I could argue that because the robots are glamorized, the characters behind them are as well, to an extent. There is, after all, a pattern of mecha anime associating specific mecha with specific characters. The two are tied together; depicting one depicts the other, to an extent. Break the Gundam, and you break the character, to an extent. Upgrade the Gundam, and you upgrade the pilot, to an extent. Depict the Gundam in a cool pose, and you depict the character as a cool character. To an extent.

However the work treats something, it's how the world OUTSIDE that work treats that same something that matters here. These Gundam designs are made to look "cool," to appeal to and more importantly affect OUR sensibilities, not necessarily that world's.

Yes, the fights in Gundam sometimes made to be flashy, but that's more to promote the sales of model kits, figures and video games, not to promote war or militant teenagers.
Just because something is done to achieve one goal doesn't mean it doesn't achieve others. If I drain a lake to make space for more urban development, I am also displacing wildlife and disrupting an ecosystem. Intent is not necessarily the same thing as result.

Also, you seem to relate this show with youth suicide? What?s that has got to do with IBO? ... See the successful Japanese adults nowadays? ... How come they didn't kill themselves or became militant desperados?
Suicide in Japan has been a national epidemic for several decades now. (One of the criticisms of the recent Suicide Forest horror movie was that it reduced this national epidemic to a cheap ghost film.) How does it relate to IBO? I don't know, which is why I made the disclaimer in my OP.

My initial thoughts might go something like this:
1.) IBO promotes an unrealistic ideal of the young male by way of its main protagonist, Mikazuki.
2.) Boys and young men internalize this unrealistic ideal, and aim (either consciously or unconsciously) to shape themselves after that ideal.
3.) When they fail to meet those untenable standards, they are at greater risk to self-harm.

That's simplifying things significantly, and of course it must be reiterated that these are just some of my initial thoughts and have yet to be put to the test, but there you are. That's how suicide and IBO are potentially related.

"There are successful adults today" and "the suicide rate in Japan is abnormally high" can both be (and are) true statements that coexist.

And for your comment about majority of Gundam not being a good anime.... well, if Gundam is not a good anime and entertainment, there's no way it will be as popular as it is now (for 30+ years)
I've come to understand that such things as popularity and longevity rarely have to do with how "good" something is. There are dozens of mecha anime that I consider far better, far more "good," than Gundam, but they won't be nearly as popular or live as long in the public consciousness as Gundam. Whatever the quality of Gundam, it owes just as much of its existence to the confluence of external factors that propelled it to where it is.

In other words, Gundam didn't do it all on its own. It came out at the right time in the right place with the right story told to the right people.
 

Obey

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Oh, a reply. I didn't realize that. Been busy. Anyway, I'm glad I can interact.

gandhi the peacemake said:
Why such a defensive tone? It seems I've struck a nerve. Well, you make some perfectly valid points; I don't think they rebut my argument (insofar as I have one; like I said, a lot of this is just a sort of thought exercise, an untested hypothesis), but they're valid points all the same.
Did I? Maybe because I think you're underestimating the audience's (Japanese, in this case) intelligence or ability to differentiate between fantasy/fiction and reality. I'm already tired of people accusing games and anime "poisoning" the kids, yet here you are with similar comments to those people.

gandhi the peacemake said:
I'm well aware of suspension of disbelief: the ability of the audience to accept that the world of the story operates on different rules than our own. However, this ability is limited, perhaps more limited than audiences like to think. Those worlds are themselves relevant to our world, with our multitudinous value sets; they do not exist in a vacuum, even though we might assume and treat them as if they do.
So what? The anime shows that you're talking about already did their homework by building a universe different from ours with different morals and values. Furthermore, those series themselves still condemn the act of violence such as beatings, rape, killings, even robbing and stealing. In series like Naruto, One Piece or Bleach, the MCs are all peace-loving teenagers. They only do violence for training or because they are provoked or they see some bad guys doing violence to other innocent people and they want to stop them or fighting against tyranny. Context is important. Do people blame police officers when they arrest killers and robbers with some force or when they shoot at terrorists? Do people blame the young soldiers of Allied Forces during WW2 for blasting Nazi soldiers' asses in the past? How about Luke Skywalker in Star Wars who killed dozens (if not hundreds) of Imperial officers by blasting the Death Star? You wanna blame his character and the story too? You might wanna blame every work of fiction which has young protagonists fighting their enemies with violence in a kill-or-be-killed and survival situation while you're at it.

Since you prefer the colorful, cheerful, glamorous and Disney-ish Macross to Gundam, do you want every real-robot shows to be "Disney-fied" like that?

gandhi the peacemake said:
I could argue that because the robots are glamorized, the characters behind them are as well, to an extent. There is, after all, a pattern of mecha anime associating specific mecha with specific characters. The two are tied together; depicting one depicts the other, to an extent. Break the Gundam, and you break the character, to an extent. Upgrade the Gundam, and you upgrade the pilot, to an extent. Depict the Gundam in a cool pose, and you depict the character as a cool character. To an extent.
However the work treats something, it's how the world OUTSIDE that work treats that same something that matters here. These Gundam designs are made to look "cool," to appeal to and more importantly affect OUR sensibilities, not necessarily that world's.
Just because something is done to achieve one goal doesn't mean it doesn't achieve others. If I drain a lake to make space for more urban development, I am also displacing wildlife and disrupting an ecosystem. Intent is not necessarily the same thing as result.
Your "if the robot is cool, the MC is cool too"-argument is true to an extent. But most of the times, what the robots do won't affect the Japanese audience's psyche or personalities, not even the youngest ones. Heck, when Gundam Wing was new and popular in USA, do you see kids and teenagers there imitating whatever act of violence that the giant robots do? I don't think so. Most people in Japan who don't live under a rock and aware of the entertainment industry in their country (even children) know that the flashy robot-fights in Gundam series aren't made to be imitated and only there to sell toys. In fact, you'll see more children imitating the action of protagonists from live-action Tokusatsu shows (Ultraman, Kamen Rider, Sentai/Power Ranger, etc) than anything mecha shows, let alone real-robot shows like Gundam. After all, those children cannot fly, nor separate and combine their bodies in a glorious style, nor have the means to blow things up using cannons and beam sabers. That's what toys are for.

In short, the audiences (who like Gundam shows) might think the giant robots and their fights as cool, that's it. You wanna know the common reaction of audience who thought the Gundams are cool and like it very much? They ask to themselves: "I want more of those, where can I buy the toys & merchandise? " and followed by the act of buying the merchandise of the related Gundam shows, not imitating the act of violence done by the robots.

gandhi the peacemake said:
Suicide in Japan has been a national epidemic for several decades now. (One of the criticisms of the recent Suicide Forest horror movie was that it reduced this national epidemic to a cheap ghost film.) How does it relate to IBO? I don't know, which is why I made the disclaimer in my OP.
My initial thoughts might go something like this:
1.) IBO promotes an unrealistic ideal of the young male by way of its main protagonist, Mikazuki.
2.) Boys and young men internalize this unrealistic ideal, and aim (either consciously or unconsciously) to shape themselves after that ideal.
3.) When they fail to meet those untenable standards, they are at greater risk to self-harm.
That's simplifying things significantly, and of course it must be reiterated that these are just some of my initial thoughts and have yet to be put to the test, but there you are. That's how suicide and IBO are potentially related.
1. The MCs in IBO are never depicted as ideal role models. The MCs are all broken individuals and the show promotes and advertises them as such. Did you never seen or read fictional works where the protagonists are young antiheroes or downright villains? See Death Note, Overlord, Akame ga Kill, Ichi the Killer, etc. The MC in those anime do not scream 'role models IRL' to its audience.

2. It depends on the state of mind of those who does that. But mentally-healthy people with moral values will certainly not do that. They'll be busier trying to act normal to fit in their society by imitating real people than a broken anime character.


3. See my answer to your no. 2 thought. And why would a mentally-healthy people harm themselves for failing to live like a broken anime character? Many suicides in Japan are actually done by people who can't deal with the pressure of their working or school environment or intense bullying or even broken heart due to romantic reasons, not mere anime.

gandhi the peacemake said:
"There are successful adults today" and "the suicide rate in Japan is abnormally high" can both be (and are) true statements that coexist.
And the suicides are most likely aren't heavily connected to anime (let alone caused by it). If you think otherwise, you might wanna do some filtering:

Out of all those suicides, how many are done by people who routinely watch anime or fans of anime?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are actually related to anime in any way?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are related to Gundam franchise in any way?

I'm not gonna be surprised if the result is zero.

gandhi the peacemake said:
I've come to understand that such things as popularity and longevity rarely have to do with how "good" something is. There are dozens of mecha anime that I consider far better, far more "good," than Gundam, but they won't be nearly as popular or live as long in the public consciousness as Gundam. Whatever the quality of Gundam, it owes just as much of its existence to the confluence of external factors that propelled it to where it is.
In other words, Gundam didn't do it all on its own. It came out at the right time in the right place with the right story told to the right people.
You can be popular through sheer dumb luck and fans' persistence (see Twilights movies), but many popular things out there actually have merits. For example, I'm not a fan of Justin Bieber (even borderline on disliking his recent attitude caught by media) but his Youtube debut that made him popular is actually good. He has a nice voice & performance in it. So, in many cases, you still need a certain level of quality and competence in your field to be popular while the rest can be attributed to luck (being in the right time and the right place etc).

As for longevity, that is something you definitely cannot get by just luck or external factors alone, especially in entertainment business where people can easily get bored. McDonalds may be able to remains this long coz (almost) everybody likes burgers by default ever since the food is introduced to the masses. But there's no such convenience in entertainment business, especially the competitive and unforgiving anime-industry. If the animated show that you produce is not inherently good and liked by the audience, they'll just ignore your product and leave your business in the dust (something that a former Manglobe anime studio has experienced. They finally went bankrupt despite being a producer of such great anime like Samurai Champloo & Ergo Proxy during their heydays). You have to continually adapt and evolve your product to meet audience's expectation or even surpass them. The fact that the Gundam franchise survives and being embraced by a lot of people (Japanese or otherwise) for 30+ years is a testament to how good their products are in general. Sure, there have been stumbles and duds along the way just like what happened to any other big franchises out there, but Gundam managed to survive a continuous bombardment of other real-robot anime series (which themselves born thanks to the first Gundam series) due to their quality products. In fact, did you know that the very first Gundam show (MSG) actually flopped when it aired? It's probably due to its unique, pioneering, almost- deconstructive (closer to realistic) approach compared to other super-robots shows at the time that audience were taken aback and considered it weird at first. Yeah, the franchise did not get instant popularity like, say, Twilight movies. But thanks to Sunrise/Bandai who saw the potential in it and continued to promote it using toys, Japanese audience were willing to give it a second chance and it becomes extremely popular after that coz people finally realized the quality in its storytelling and great characters which other series have tried to replicate some of those formulas for their own series. For example, Shinji in Evangelion is just an extreme version of Amuro Ray (MC of MSG), Lelouch from Code Geass is basically an extreme teenage version of Char Aznable if you place him in the MC shoes, and the fact that the giant robots are just military vehicles that can be mass produced instead of a one-of-a-kind super-duper-ultra special weapons like in super-robot series. They're practically just advanced tanks/subs /fighter-planes with arms and legs which aren't really the focus of the story.

It's funny how you largely dismiss Gundam's inner quality and longevity and claim its success are mostly due to external factors when in actuality the franchise always strife to be relevant by taking notes from the condition of the world we're living in and continually trying to make and release fresh social-commentary products where the consumers can relate to and enjoy.
 
Jul 9, 2011
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Obey said:
Hey, nice to hear back. Unfortunately, most of your response is for nought as I've largely come to the conclusion that while there's something worth exploring there, that something isn't the smoking gun I thought it might be. :) I suppose much of my thesis was simply founded upon a disappointment with the series' schizophrenic writing, with the majority of the lows centered around the two supposedly central characters, Mikazuki and Kudelia. I'm dropping the show (as of this latest episode... 15?) and might binge it once the season/series ends, but based on my latest thoughts on the show, I've lost a lot of conviction in my initial hypothesis.

Getting to some specific statements:

Since you prefer the colorful, cheerful, glamorous and Disney-ish Macross to Gundam, do you want every real-robot shows to be "Disney-fied" like that?
You've assumed a lot about me and that show when all I ever said was that the preview episode of Delta left a stronger impression on me than (15 episodes now of) IBO did. In fact, you've done more talking about Macross than I have.

But you did manage to get me thinking about why I like Macross (generally) more than I like Gundam (generally). In so doing, I think the closest I can come to a single answer is to say that Macross is optimistic whereas Gundam is cynical. The fact that Macross (and Shoji Kawamori, specifically) tells stories better is also a plus. A Macross Plus, you might say. Har har.

(Actually, I quite liked Stargazer, too. The scientist lady cum Gundam pilot cum all-around go-getter. She (and that Gundam, and that OAV as a whole) was revitalizing; it's a shame it was only 40 minutes long. Add another hour and it could have been an even more amazing standalone feature.)

And the suicides are most likely aren't heavily connected to anime (let alone caused by it). If you think otherwise, you might wanna do some filtering:

Out of all those suicides, how many are done by people who routinely watch anime or fans of anime?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are actually related to anime in any way?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are related to Gundam franchise in any way?

I'm not gonna be surprised if the result is zero.
I think you again missed my point, which wasn't that anime causes suicide or is even heavily connected to it. My point was that the culture around anime contributes to the suicide epidemic in some fashion. (But again, that wasn't even my point; that was a thought exercise I had that I've since abandoned.) I'm arguing systems and you're arguing individuals.

I would also warn that your questions are unintentionally broad. For instance, I could answer them in the following manner:
- Given the overlap in age of suicide victims and age of routine anime viewing, and how ubiquitous anime is in Japan, I'd say that the overwhelming majority of suicide victims were routine anime watchers/fans. But let's say 60% to be on the conservative side.
- Of that 60%, 100% of those suicides are related to anime, because those people routinely watched anime.
- Of that 100%, 100% of suicides are related to Gundam because Gundam has had a lasting cultural impact on anime.

As for longevity, that is something you definitely cannot get by just luck or external factors alone
I never claimed you could.

did you know that the very first Gundam show (MSG) actually flopped when it aired?
I did. But see, it doesn't owe its success quite so much to...

Sunrise/Bandai who saw the potential in it
...as you might think. Sunrise were ready to move on to their next cash cow. The show had flopped, the toys weren't selling particularly well. Space Runaway Ideon, its next project after Gundam, was much better-received and would win it major anime awards. So Sunrise had no reason to hang on to a failed product, even something as good as Gundam. Towards the end of the broadcast run, however...

another toy company, Bandai, was responsible for making model kits for the series. It appears that somebody at Bandai had the perceptive idea of producing model kits that were screen accurate of the mecha in a standard scale and as they appeared in anime series rather than produce inaccurate and gimmick filled buildable toys, which was the industry standard at the time for anime and tokusatsu model kits. When these Gundam kits, now named Best Mecha Collection, were finally released during the end of the first run of Mobile Suit Gundam in 1979 it would spark a Gundam and Gunpla mania...

Source: http://www.collectiondx.com/toy_review/1980/gundam_rx78
So Gundam's popularity had nothing at all, in the beginning, to do with how GOOD it was. The show WAS good, but what made it POPULAR was the line of model kits that came from it (and which could just as easily have been produced for the Ideon series, propelling the popularity of THAT show even more).

Shinji in Evangelion is just an extreme version of Amuro Ray (MC of MSG)
We'll have to agree to disagree, because I could write multiple essays discussing the similarities and differences between the two as characters and pop culture icons at once critiquing, defying, and establishing genre conventions and industry practices and what I'm saying is you're completely wrong.

:p

(That's a dig, I know, but it's done in jest.)

It's funny how you largely dismiss Gundam's inner quality and longevity and claim its success are mostly due to external factors when in actuality the franchise always strife to be relevant by taking notes from the condition of the world we're living in and continually trying to make and release fresh social-commentary products where the consumers can relate to and enjoy.
1.) Again, I'm not dismissing Gundam's "inner quality and longevity," nor do I "claim its success are mostly due to external factors." The most I've ever said is that its "inner quality" is not necessarily and/or wholly tied to its popularity and longevity. If it seems like I'm implying anything more than that, then... well, the only thing I can control is my intent, not my effect.

2.) We'll have to agree to disagree on the "fresh social commentary products where the consumers can relate to and enjoy..." bit as well. But I'm happy for you if you're enjoying IBO. I hope you had a positive reaction to the latest episode.
 

Obey

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Jan 13, 2016
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gandhi the peacemake said:
Obey said:
Unfortunately, most of your response is for nought as I've largely come to the conclusion that while there's something worth exploring there, that something isn't the smoking gun I thought it might be. :) I suppose much of my thesis was simply founded upon a disappointment with the series' schizophrenic writing, with the majority of the lows centered around the two supposedly central characters, Mikazuki and Kudelia. I'm dropping the show (as of this latest episode... 15?) and might binge it once the season/series ends, but based on my latest thoughts on the show, I've lost a lot of conviction in my initial hypothesis.
Since you already said above that my my response is for nought and that you yourself has lost a lot of conviction in your initial hypothesis, I guess me commenting further will be meaningless.

But I'll just say this, I think IBO's portrayal of Mika is a bit refreshing. Although he is the MC, he's not the central figure of the story, which is more of an ensemble-cast than anything. I think not many people will get and appreciate this approach and will just say that Mika doesn't do much and he is boring (which is true to an extent), but as a fan of Mobile Police Patlabor, I know that sometimes, MC (see Noa Izumi) can be put on the background to allow other (more interesting) characters (in an ensemble-cast) to shine and move the plot forward. I honestly think that's a good approach to a story when you have an MC who doesn't have much going for him aside from killing bad guys and piloting a giant robot like Mika. Rather than forcing that MC to the forefront and make the audience bored with a story that revolve around him, you can push him aside for a considerable amount of time for the bigger picture and let other characters from the ensemble that has more agency like Orga (practically the 2nd MC) drive the plot.

As for Kudelia, well, she doesn't impress me either so far. So, yeah.