Is Games Workshop evil or just stupid?

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Just understand the context of everything I'm about to say, know that I am a veteran 40k player. I've been playing since 3rd Edition. I first got into the hobby when I was 7 when my dad bought me a pack of Citadel era Space Marine Combat Cards. I still have the deck.

So keep that in mind; I love this hobby and I want it to be lovable.

Is Games Workshop evil or just plain stupid?

I honestly think they started out just good old fashion stupid and lazy. Apparently a large percentage of their profit came from THQ and Dawn of War royalties. (see http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136515-Games-Workshop-Profits-Down-24-CEO-Happy) This is where they were lazy and just coasted off Dawn of War for a few years, and it led to them being stupid. GW at some point decided THQ would be around forever and that their flagship products, the tabletop games and models, were irrelevant to their profits and overall company strategy. Thus secondary games like Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Inquisitor, etc? were allowed to die off.

Then came the defining moment. THQ goes belly up and that gushing fountain of money dries up. And this is when I think GW shifted from stupid to evil. And let me just say I'm using evil in the sense that I as a gamer feel betrayed. As an outsider, what GW has done is simply greedy. As a stock holder, I would no doubt love GW.

Basically as far as I can tell GW needed cash fast. They had already begun a large store expansion plan and were laying the groundwork for dozens of new stores. Thus the Apocalypse formations were introduced. Then in short order, huge models. Titans, Stompas, Knights, etc... large, expensive models with tempting rules that turned the tide of the game. But it wasn't enough.

They had to ensure a steady supply of cash. 7th edition comes out. Unbound armies are released. Now strategy is out the window and the winner of the game is whoever spammed a single model the most. Don't tell me you haven't noticed. Chaos Marine armies of just Helldrakes. Tyranid swarms of nothing but Zoanthropes. Imperial Guards with more Leman Russes than actual guardsmen. Knights come out and they slaughter everything with a simple tactics; the more Knights you buy, the better the army. The game has turned into a grab-bag of whoever spends the most money wins. Before, in the old days, new units were a plus, but a clever player could beat a more expensive army if the points were balanced.

Now a days I'm seeing slaughters at the tables. No more close calls. Victory point matches 0-7. Whole armies being boarded by a swarm of only a few models. I've seen two Knights take on and destroy easily three land raiders worth of Plague Marines. Not a single Knight was lost.
I myself played against the new Orks, and I slaughtered them in a victory point match 8-4. I play Space Marine Legion and at 2000 points I outnumbered the Orks, model-for-model.
And I think that brings me to what may be the most evil thing GW is doing. The new Codices are terrible. And it?s a very precise, specific terrible. The most used units, for example, Ork Boyz, are now worthless because of the rule changes. Previously built armies, ones players spent years building, are not worthless. But it just so happened the new Morkanauts are awesome. And it just so happens you can filed as many as you want in an Unbound Army. And it just so happens the Morkanauts are $105 a pop.

I think GW is deliberately making the Codicies bad to force players into Unbound Armies and force them to buy the single unit that?s worth it, which just happens to be the most expensive money wise.

And I as a veteran gamer view this as complete evil. Its greedy and it?s a sound business plan, but its evil. I've had two friends stop playing 40k all together because the rules just leech the fun out of it. don?t get me wrong, winning is always preferable to losing, but there was a time the outcome wasn't as fun as the match. An epic duel between HQs was its own reward, armies beating each other bloody was fun to watch and God bless the Orks and their always fun hijinks.

Now the games are bitter. People aren't playing to have fun, they're playing to win. And you win by spending money. Might as well throw piles of cash on the table and whoever came in with the most wins.

Now I hear the Space Wolves are being neutered in the new codex. Sagas are gone. Grey Hunters aren't as good.

But you know what is good?! A new $80 flyer! Buy four of five of them! It?s the only way to win!
 

renegade7

New member
Feb 9, 2011
2,046
0
0
Well I'm not so sure Unbound is ultimately a huge deal. It's pretty easy to choose not to play with someone with an army that's only built to be an unbeatable win button. And also, as someone who still plays Rogue Trader, who's saying you have to use the most recent edition if you don't like it? From what I've seen, plenty of people are unhappy about 7th edition: get enough people using a previous edition and refusing to buy the new rulebooks and codices, and you'll send a strong message that the new rules were unwelcome.
 

NoX 9

I Want A Hug!
Jul 2, 2014
82
0
0
Silentpony said:
Unbound armies are released.
I only play with a small group of friends, and we are still stuck on 5th Ed for 40k (6th for Fantasy, slowly moving into 7th). We just never bothered moving on cause our armies were all set up and we were comfortable with the ruleset.

For someone that hasn't played or even looked at any new rules for many years, what is 'unbound armies'? How does it work?
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,435
4,070
118
Eh, troops have often been a bit rubbish, and there is always bad power creep. Bloody Centurions...

But, yeah, GW keeps giving the fluff and rules a bad kicking. Have done for ages...I miss the days when losing sustained fire dice was a big deal...I was younger and naive then.

NoX 9 said:
For someone that hasn't played or even looked at any new rules for many years, what is 'unbound armies'? How does it work?
Instead of choosing everything from one codex, or related codices, you take whatever you want from any.

So, 3 Bloodthirsters, a Tau Ethereal, and a Necron Scarab Swarm is a legitimate army now.

However, in missions where there are objectives to capture, if you both have units close enough to claim one, an unbound army won't claim it if a unit from a normal ("Battleforged") army can.

The idea...well, allows for some thematic armies...the UM 1st company at Macragge, or a DE Hellion force, but also for total rubbish.

Battleforged armies can take allies as well, so there is a lot more flexibility.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

Henchgoat Emperor
May 15, 2010
5,499
0
0
Greedy and lazy, not particularly stupid though. I've gotten off the GW Officially Licenesed Crackpipe[sup]TM[/sup].

[sub]I hate when I accidentally hit post[/sub]

I used to love GW, but I realize just how much they abuse their customers. Their prices are unreasonable for the product which even for a basic army is steep. Unlike M:tG (which is another kind of evil), GW directly targets the wallet, at least with M:tG you can get a working deck with less investment and enjoy a game without feeling like you just got mugged.
Games Workshop makes you buy multiple figures, the paints and such to make them look cool, also might want to pick up some bits to enhance your models, etc. And then you play your first game and get trounced because the guy had more money to spend than you. Pay to win, involving your firstborn, a deal with the devil and maybe a pound of flesh from you.
They're evil, yeah I'll grant that.
 

Batou667

New member
Oct 5, 2011
2,238
0
0
I started playing 40K in the last couple of years of 2nd Edition, played 3rd ed for it's lifespan, and have been watching from the sidelines ever since in mounting dismay.

I'd say it's stupidity and evil in equal parts. The constant price creep is a contrived and cynical practice, the transition from lead -> white metal -> finecash finecast -> "high quality" plastic is the most bare-faced disingenuous penny-pinching I've seen in quite some time, the recent flurry of new editions and codex releases is similarly a money grab, especially the shift in focus to fielding super-heavies as standard. We could say the same kind of thing about digital editions of codexes (that are only a pound or so cheaper than the paper version?!), discontinuing the entire paint range and bringing out a new one, and so on. Hell, the simple existence of Matt Ward is proof that evil personified is a real thing.

On the stupidity front, many of GW's decisions in the last 10 years have reeked of short-term thinking and self-harm. Not capitalising on successes like Space Marine and Dawn of War is bizarre. Discontinuing the Citadel Journal, Warhammer Monthly, Inferno, and basically all other supplementary reading aside from their shitty novels was a short-sighted decision that undoubtedly saved a little cash but also cut off many of the older and longest-serving fans/customers. Undermining the tournament play aspect of the hobby burned another bridge. And yet the company forged on with quixotic projects like that terrible Ultramarines movie, foreign currency trading as a key part of their financial strategy, and all this headed up by a guy from an accounting background who doesn't seem to be engaged with the hobby or hobbyists in any way.

GW are spiraling the drain, and in all honesty I think they deserve it. They've exhibited contempt for their fans and jaw-dropping incompetence for too long.
 

rosac

New member
Sep 13, 2008
1,205
0
0
I played for 8 years, quit for 3, then went back into the shop to see how it's going.

The prices made me lolnope, I then checked out some of the codexes/army books and got pretty upset. Ever fantasy army now has a big ass monster, every 40k army gets either big stuff or stuff that is OP to the point of silliness, and gets a new kit. I want to get back into it, but nah. For the price of 1 rulebook, 1 codex and a pack of space marines I can pay for a year gym membership, including being able to play my chosen sport.

nah.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
3,056
0
0
They're too stupid to realize they're pure evil, so both. I wish that someday they'd crash and burn, and I wish that the recent uprising of smaller model companies like Avatars of War or Mantic providing essentially the same models with a staggeringly more fair price for quantity would aid in their downfall. If they ever do, I'll be the first one to sing in the streets. I think the first sign might already have happened, as that godawful abomination White Dwarf was scrapped, and brought back as a thin, leaflet-like magazine. It doesn't have any more substance than it has had in the last 7 years, but at least they're not charging 7,50 ? for it anymore.

GW's evil extends beyond their business practices though. They hold their customers and even employees in active contempt: suing bloggers, not cooperating with hobbyist websites, not communicating with their customers in any meaningful fashion, effectively taking a shit in our faces and calling it chocolate cake (Failcast cough cough), reducing staff in stores to one person and so on. I still can't for the life of me figure out why they effectively destroyed their website in 2007 by turning it into a bloated, ugly, masturbatory webstore with absolutely no worthwhile content whatsoever.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
NoX 9 said:
Silentpony said:
Unbound armies are released.
I only play with a small group of friends, and we are still stuck on 5th Ed for 40k (6th for Fantasy, slowly moving into 7th). We just never bothered moving on cause our armies were all set up and we were comfortable with the ruleset.

For someone that hasn't played or even looked at any new rules for many years, what is 'unbound armies'? How does it work?
An Unbound Army is basically anything you want. I could field 5 Leman Russes, Logan Grimnar, a Hive Tyrant and three Daemon Princes and so long as the point cost is the same as my opponent, its good. What it does is limit your tactics to just trying to kill your enemy. You can't effectively hold points or objectives with an Unbound Army.

And some people think that's enough of an offset. They have never fought against an Unbound Army; you simply get massacred. It always boils down to your troops, Tactical Squads let go with, vs a Daemon Prince and a Leman Russ. You DO outnumber the unbound army sometimes, but it doesn't matter. I played against an Unbound Army - 8 Zoanthropes. I was dead in three turns.
 

SweetShark

Shark Girls are my Waifus
Jan 9, 2012
5,147
0
0
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Greedy and lazy, not particularly stupid though. I've gotten off the GW Officially Licenesed Crackpipe[sup]TM[/sup].

[sub]I hate when I accidentally hit post[/sub]

I used to love GW, but I realize just how much they abuse their customers. Their prices are unreasonable for the product which even for a basic army is steep. Unlike M:tG (which is another kind of evil), GW directly targets the wallet, at least with M:tG you can get a working deck with less investment and enjoy a game without feeling like you just got mugged.
Games Workshop makes you buy multiple figures, the paints and such to make them look cool, also might want to pick up some bits to enhance your models, etc. And then you play your first game and get trounced because the guy had more money to spend than you. Pay to win, involving your firstborn, a deal with the devil and maybe a pound of flesh from you.
They're evil, yeah I'll grant that.
Well, to be fare, many people just want the models only to paint them and put them to their "Awesome Table of Awesome Miniatures" :p
I would love to have to a cosplay my personal Amry of Grey Knights to my room....*snif*...this will not happen....

Also by the sound of it, it is a Pay to Win game, and it is not even a F2P game XD
 

Vivi22

New member
Aug 22, 2010
2,300
0
0
Silentpony said:
As a stock holder, I would no doubt love GW.
I doubt their stock holders will love them for long. For the past few years they've been steadily increasing prices and consolidating their control over the sale of their product completely. It might seem like a good thing on paper to people who know jack about business and economics, but it's the sort of behaviour which consistently backfires in the end. Hence they're losing market share to better games with better prices, and their position in the industry will continue to erode until they either figure their shit out or their present business practices become unsustainable.

As for whether they're stupid or evil, I'd say both. They're evil enough to be greedy as fuck, and stupid enough to think that their blatant money grabs are good business practice (not to mention stupid enough to continue releasing rule sets which are terrible on pretty much every level, and which they know are terrible prior to release). And let's not kid ourselves here: this sort of stuff started years ago. It's not some recent thing that only occurred with them losing some gaming revenue and the release of unbound rules.
 

Zero=Interrupt

New member
Nov 9, 2009
252
0
0
@ OP: How the hell did you manage to outnumber an ork army with a marine army? Had the guy just never used orks before, or was he asleep? Was your list only composed of scouts?

Details! Give us details!

(and to answer your question, they're both evil AND stupid)
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Zero=Interrupt said:
@ OP: How the hell did you manage to outnumber an ork army with a marine army? Had the guy just never used orks before, or was he asleep? Was your list only composed of scouts?

Details! Give us details!

(and to answer your question, they're both evil AND stupid)
Its not that hard with the Legion lists. Just about every troop choice can be maxed out to 20. And the Ork player used a lot of the updated units, lootas, flashgitz and those gretchin artillery units. I used a 20man assault squad, 2 20 man tactical squads, a 10man flamer support squad, a 10man missile launcher heavy support squad, 10 terminators and a centurion.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
3,056
0
0
Zero=Interrupt said:
@ OP: How the hell did you manage to outnumber an ork army with a marine army? Had the guy just never used orks before, or was he asleep? Was your list only composed of scouts?

Details! Give us details!

(and to answer your question, they're both evil AND stupid)
You can outnumber an Ork army with Space Marines 15 to 1 with an army list consisting only of Terminators these days. A 1,5k list of Orks with the new codex and rules can consist of two Stompas (close to 800 pts apiece), and maybe one character to be your Warlord, and nothing else. Yep, you can now wield super-heavies in normal games of 40k, that's how stupid it's become.
 

Littaly

New member
Jun 26, 2008
1,810
0
0
It seems one of these threads pop out every half a year or so. And every time I thank my lucky start that I never got hooked on Warhammer, despite being pretty heavily involved with it at one point.

It really does sound like Games Workshop is digging their own grave. I wouldn't call this a sound business strategy as much as an effective but short sighted one. The last five years or so, I've never heard anyone praise anything Games Workshop has done. The only thing I've heard is complaints from fans who are slowly losing faith.

And how a property like Warhammer plans on surviving without fans I don't know. I would guess miniature wargaming is the kind of business where everything depends on customer loyalty...

In conclusion, I'd put my money on stupid, rather than evil.
 

Josh Wirfs

New member
Jul 13, 2012
1
0
0
Sounds like a lot of changes have been made since I last was into 40k. I played a Grey Knight army and had fun but all this unbound stuff sounds unpleasant. Luckily, I just play with friends but if I played in tournaments I'd be more pissed. Seriously, they are choosing poorly if they want to keep loyal fans. Let's be honest, each new addition does not bring all that many new fans. Any sane person would be turned off by the insane price tag attached to the game. I'm redoing a Space Wolves army and it's almost worth it to take a 3d modeling class and buy a 3d printer to make your own damn armies for you and your friends. The only thing GW sells that's a fair price is paint.

Edit: I lost most of my faith when they stopped Mordheim. Why pay a little when they can gouge you and bleed you dry. I love 40k, but the only reason I still buy is cause I have friends and family that likes to play.
 

Khadhar

New member
Dec 5, 2007
24
0
0
Shit, there's a 7th edition? Last one I played was 4th... I had to quit cause school ended and all my friends moved away and the nearest games workshop was so far away. This "unbound" army rules idea does seem like a good idea in theory, I once considered making a "chaos orc" army... But yeah, it sounds like it quickly falls apart... Give people the chance to abuse the rules, and they will. I am kinda glad it wasn't around while I played. It would have totally undermined the epicness of my tyranid army when I discovered I could field like 4-5 Carnifexes by converting some to Elites with the 4th ed rules... Think I had 4 Carnifexes, 2 zoanthropes, a hive tyrant with tyrant guards, and some ripper swarms to fill out the obligatory troops...

But yeah, I did take a gander through their store a few months ago and you're right, everything is insanely expensive now, which is saying something, considering they have cut back hugely on the amount of models that require white metal pieces, which I was led to believe is what drove up the cost of the bigger models.

Also, you're right Josh, I freakin' loved Mordheim... Was so sad they never got anything done for it really...
 
Aug 31, 2012
1,774
0
0
Silentpony said:
As a stock holder, I would no doubt love GW.
I doubt it, their stock lost 25% of it's value when the drop in profits vs last year came out.

I think just very short sighted, aimed at making as much money in the short term without regard to keeping people involved. Personally I don't have much of a problem with the prices in overall terms (primarily since I've had more models than I'll ever be able to paint since about 1993), it's more the "fuck you" of it all. New guard codex? Yeah, that'll be a 50% increase in price, oh yeah, and there's another different one for Stormtroopers now, so basically 300% increase in price. You can't buy Kasrkin or Stormtroopers anymore, but look at these new plastic ones! Same price for half as many, and in a much cheaper material. 10 standard guardsmen cost less. Same when you look at the price of tac marines vs assault or Vanguard. Why so much more?

Killing of Specialist games angered a lot of people. If GW still did their back catalogue/parts mail order they might win back a few hearts.

As for the rules, unbound stuff etc I don't really care, I've played since Rogue Trader when it was in the RaW that you could choose your chaos attributes when putting together a warband and the rules were full of total dickbag weapons and equipment that pretty much any army could abuse and if someone turned up with an army like that, you just didn't play them. I can see how people who only get to play at GW might be pissed off about it, and it's definitely not good for the hobby if it is that problematic.
 

Angelowl

New member
Feb 8, 2013
256
0
0
My vote is on stupid. Too long have they hold a monopoly, so they stopped caring about quality or community response. When the last Elder Codex came out the white dwarf was basically all "look at these new shiny models". When the previous codex came out they discussed rule changes, reasoning behind it, fluff, army building, strategies and tactics. By refusing to patch the codi when new editions rolls out and refusing to actually balance their game they are driving away long time customers. They keep increasing the model prices in response to actual competetion, wtith increasingly complex and unbalanced rules. New players have to by starter sets (several), paint, modelling tools, rulebooks and so on. The entry level is simply too steep. Compare this to when I was new and I got a booklet with the current Warhammer Fantasy rules in my local language, FOR FREE. A healthy motivator to newcomers.

In short, they are doing EVERYTHING wrong. I have no clue where they intend to get their customer base from.