Is piracy bad when you don't have a choice ?

triggrhappy94

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to tell you the truth i find it worse when its not an oppion
you can guess where I get all my music, movies, and computer games
 

tjcross

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meh it may be stupid to say but i don't see the problem in this if you plan on paying back for example you pirate the game then once you can afford it go buy it (or rent it if you can and bypass the whole save up 50-90 bucks to buy it v.s. pirate problem) i have pirated but only old games that companies don't make much money off anymore (nes-nintendo64 eras) since i don't have the disposable cash to go buy a wii then download all my favorite n64 when they are a few clicks away. but back on track as long as you pay down the road it's cool or wait till the title is a few years old either it's fine
p.s. I've downloaded Morrowind but i have the game for the x-box the disc was scratched to hell though so i downloaded the p.c. version to replace it is that wrong?
 

jtwolf85

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my question is if you cant afford a %50-some dollar game, how can you afford the said system your going to play your pirated game on? if you have the money for a system then you should have the money for the games, perhaps not every single game you want but do you really need them all? i want tons of games, i have tons of systems, i have 3 ataris and such sitting here in my house that all still work, i have a 360, yes i want a ps3 but i cant afford it thus i dont get it, but for my 360 i have the games i wanted the most to get. and ppl are saying that no one is hurt by the piracy is somewhat wrong, though you might be one person with a pirated copy of a game there are tons of other ppl out there doing the same thing. you might cost the company $5 lets say pirating a game but if 15,000 ppl pirate it then they lose $75,000. Look at some of the companies shutting down certain branches of their companies and others doing mass layoffs. All these payoffs and cutbacks and dept closings are preventing programers and such from making their games, who knows, the next Miyamoto of gaming might have been in those layoffs and we may never have his or her great game or games to play. You think piracy had nothing to do with it at all? im not saying its the only factor but it had to have contributed. I have also been jobless for over a year and just recently got a job but i did not get pirated copies of games, and others say that you pirate it to try it, there are usually DLC demos which are free and put out by the companies which i love so i can try games and see if i will like them. plus you could always trade in the games your done playing, ive done that with a few of mine that i saw no replay value in.
 

Ishadus

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Apr 3, 2010
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Aylaine said:
Ishadus said:
Aylaine said:
I don't have that problem...my issue is getting older games/property by pirating, but having no way of buying the real thing due to limited copies, it being old or other factors. In this case, I pirate a few things, then buy or gift something recent from the same developers to make up for it. Ir's not a perfect system, but their still getting my money. :)
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but when a company is no longer producing something and it can be obtained no other way, then doesn't it fall into a category of "shareware" where that is actually, in fact, legal?

Although your tenacity to then buy something else from the developer to "make up for it" is, I think, refreshingly noble of you. You have my respect, for what it's worth ;)
Thank you for that. I'm very glads I have your respect. It's worth a lot!
Aww...see now I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside! And it's not even because I ate something warm and fuzzy!
 

jtwolf85

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tjcross said:
meh it may be stupid to say but i don't see the problem in this if you plan on paying back for example you pirate the game then once you can afford it go buy it (or rent it if you can and bypass the whole save up 50-90 bucks to buy it v.s. pirate problem) i have pirated but only old games that companies don't make much money off anymore (nes-nintendo64 eras) since i don't have the disposable cash to go buy a wii then download all my favorite n64 when they are a few clicks away. but back on track as long as you pay down the road it's cool or wait till the title is a few years old either it's fine
p.s. I've downloaded Morrowind but i have the game for the x-box the disc was scratched to hell though so i downloaded the p.c. version to replace it is that wrong?
Actually that is legal, as long as you own the game they have no problem with emulated versions that you have of it. I have D&D warriors of the eternal sun but the save files dont hold so i have an emulated version of it on my pc.
 

SyphonX

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Mar 22, 2009
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Dormin111 said:
Nah uh uh, the burden of proof lies with you, not I. I do not have to disprove your profit hypothesis, you have to prove it since you brought it up. I like every other person with a brain stem acknowledges that piracy is a legal and moral wrong because it's theft. You some how work around this glaring truth with half baked theories about corporate moral bankruptcy and the idea that wants are not the same as entitlements. Romania would just be the start in your world. What about the rest of those poor countries which feel the need to steal the hard work of others? Don't they get the right to price reductions as well? Where does it stop? Where does it begin?
My burden of proof? My proof is already here, easy to see. People have been pirating games for many years, including Romania. The game industry isn't imploding, because of it. It's been gaining, immensely.

What has been imploding though, is indie developers being pushed out of the market by corporations like EA, who coincidentally, are the heavy-hitters of the DRM madness. Divide and conquer ruse, much?

The proof actually lies with you, because everyone in this entire thread keeps saying that the games industry is failing because of piracy, from Romania or otherwise, and that "if they keep it up" everyone will stop paying for games. So where is the proof in this, even though it's been going on for well over a decade in an insanely thriving industry, every single year, even in a recession. Show me evidence that suggests Romania negatively impacts the game industry, show me anything, anything other than your morals bullshit that doesn't even apply to any business model whatsoever, but only your own imaginary values.

Dormin111 said:
EDIT: "should be made reasonably obtainable and affordable." By what standard? Who decides this? Random Romanians?
Funny, but no. Market standards determine costs. This is why you can buy a car in Europe, in any given country, I don't know.. Finland for example, and pay a good 25% or more less than it would cost in Germany for instance. Even after currency conversion. And it does not impact the auto-industry negatively in any way. They in fact, do this intentionally, because of a changing market from border to border, otherwise, cars would collect dust in some countries and they would trigger a huge profit-loss. They are making their already distributed product affordable from region to region, in order to sell them.

 

unFunkiest

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Mar 24, 2010
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"Theft

1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny. [1913 Webster]

Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief."

Definition from Dictionary.net


"Art
n.
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value."

Definition from Dictionary.net


Just thought I'd post a few definitions, as there seems to be a bit of confusion over the meaning of these words. After all, correct usage of terms is the key to clear communication.

As for my thoughts on the OP, they've all been covered by others in this thread, so I'll leave it at that...
 

Limzz

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LordNue said:
Limzz said:
LordNue said:
If the simple fact is that you can't afford games then you can do without them. Games are a luxury, not a requirement for life. If you can't afford the price on something then you don't really have the right to own it, do you? Just because no one gets hurt doesn't make it right.
That's harsh. I doubt you would feel the same if you were in his financial situation. Just because it isn't right doesn't make it wrong. Even if it is wrong, to what degree? In my opinion this guy pirating a game is less morally wrong than say, stealing a pack of gum from the corner store.
I have been in the situation before and simply did without the game until I had enough money to afford it. I didn't sit around crying about it or steal it, I did without and enjoyed what I had. It's a shame that the OP can't afford it, but that doesn't give them the right to steal it. If it did then why do people who can afford it have to pay? If the people who can't afford the price of something and are allowed to get it free with no downsides then it's simply not right that the people who can afford would have to pay, therefore everyone should pirate it.
I'm not saying it's right, I just wouldn't think less of the OP for it. Sure, everyone can pirate, but we know what would happen then. Technically you're correct but considered tangibly that argument is less significant.
 

Guitarmasterx7

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Mar 16, 2009
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Dormin111 said:
Guitarmasterx7 said:
Meh. I don't really think piracy is too bad anyways. A corporation that grosses millions of dollars a year losing 50 dollars is not that big of a deal. A corporation that grosses millions of dollars a year having their game played by somebody who would have never bought it anyways is even less of one. Plus if the people pirating don't think it's wrong, then your morality really doesn't matter, now does it? Maybe if I owned a software company I would feel a lot differently, but as of now they're not stealing anything from me, so it's not my problem.
So you believe that the wealthier a person is, the less property rights they should have?
No, I believe that the wealthier a person is, the less of an impact it has when a small amount of money is taken from them. I also believe that the higher degree to which a person is not me, the less I should care. In this case it's a large company filled with multiple not-mes that makes more money in half an hour than I probably will in my entire life. A few pirated games are so insignificant that it's almost not even enough for THEM to get their panties in a bunch over, let alone me. I also think it doesn't fucking matter what I think, because even if I would rather cut my own balls off than see someone pirate left 4 dead, they're going to do it anyways.
 

tjcross

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Alpha1089 said:
Aylaine said:
I don't have that problem...my issue is getting older games/property by pirating, but having no way of buying the real thing due to limited copies, it being old or other factors. In this case, I pirate a few things, then buy or gift something recent from the same developers to make up for it. Ir's not a perfect system, but their still getting my money. :)
BURN IN HELL YOU DIRTY PIRATE!!!
Suck it.
if one cannot acquire an item legally due to the limit of the copies i see no problem in pirating an item that in no way effects the company since the item is not physical anyway it's a program on a chunk of plastic newer games i do have a problem with since when you have the money and see it at the store most would not buy something they already have let us put this in my way of thinking
new game =no profit to store (the company was already paid by the store)
difficulty: easy to find
old game=no profit to some guy on e-bay or no profit because it is not on sale
difficulty:depending medium to impossible to find and very inconvenient (possibility of being lost or the the wrong item being shipped possibilty of being in bad condition or not working all together)
plus this individual buys an item of the company to make up for it so basicly he's taking some trash from the company and on the way out he's buying somthing they are selling i see nothing wrong.
now that that is out of the way i'm going back to my life do with yours what you will and by the way have a wonderful day
 

SyphonX

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Mar 22, 2009
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Dormin111 said:
No one said the games industry is FAILING because of piracy, we said it is being HURT. I can not comprehend how you can't grasp how piracy hurts an industry. Maybe you need to be walked through basic economics.

In a normal company:
STEP 1: producer presents a product
STEP 2: consumer gives money to the producer in exchange for the product
STEP 3: Producer uses money to make more products

In a pirated company:
STEP 1: producer presents a product
STEP 2: consumer takes product with no money exchange
STEP 3: Producer cannot make more products
Yes, in "theory", piracy will hurt the economic model of an industry, games included. However, there is no proof to back this up, at this current time, in the real world. On paper, in the "morally sound, justified world", it adds up, but in the current real-time market, there is no proof whatsoever that the industry is being hurt.

Is the industry being hurt morally? Are the corporations being scorned, and subsequently, their feelings being hurt? Sad face.

These people CANNOT buy these games because in most cases, it is the equivalent of you having to pay retail on a new TV, for the price of a single game, in relevance to the level of their country's inflation/economy. It just can't happen. This isn't - "Oh, I'm short on cash this month, I have to go without for now." - it is - "Wow, that game costs as much as my mortgage payment, guess I have to go without forever." There is no "saving up", or counting pennies, it just never will be.

My whole point is, if these companies are going to piss and moan all day long, 365 days a week, and spend millions on DRM saying that pirates are to blame for some unfounded "hurt to the industry", then they deserve every loss they get, From That. Their losses are from their paranoia, not mine, or anyone else's. Until they can provide quantifiable proof that the majority of "pirates", leeching and seeding every single day, are all a lost sale, each and every one of them, then there never will be any justification for the action they take against their paying customers, or the people they ridicule.
 

tjcross

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jtwolf85 said:
tjcross said:
meh it may be stupid to say but i don't see the problem in this if you plan on paying back for example you pirate the game then once you can afford it go buy it (or rent it if you can and bypass the whole save up 50-90 bucks to buy it v.s. pirate problem) i have pirated but only old games that companies don't make much money off anymore (nes-nintendo64 eras) since i don't have the disposable cash to go buy a wii then download all my favorite n64 when they are a few clicks away. but back on track as long as you pay down the road it's cool or wait till the title is a few years old either it's fine
p.s. I've downloaded Morrowind but i have the game for the x-box the disc was scratched to hell though so i downloaded the p.c. version to replace it is that wrong?
Actually that is legal, as long as you own the game they have no problem with emulated versions that you have of it. I have D&D warriors of the eternal sun but the save files dont hold so i have an emulated version of it on my pc.
ok that's one thing of my mind thanks for that i've had people call me a thief ect. 'cause i downloaded morrowind and they still say it's wrong when i point to the copy of the x-box game i have kicking around man are most teenagers dumb as a stump or am i just crazy?
 

tjcross

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Apr 14, 2008
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SyphonX said:
Dormin111 said:
No one said the games industry is FAILING because of piracy, we said it is being HURT. I can not comprehend how you can't grasp how piracy hurts an industry. Maybe you need to be walked through basic economics.

In a normal company:
STEP 1: producer presents a product
STEP 2: consumer gives money to the producer in exchange for the product
STEP 3: Producer uses money to make more products

In a pirated company:
STEP 1: producer presents a product
STEP 2: consumer takes product with no money exchange
STEP 3: Producer cannot make more products
Yes, in "theory", piracy will hurt the economic model of an industry, games included. However, there is no proof to back this up, at this current time, in the real world. On paper, in the "morally sound, justified world", it adds up, but in the current real-time market, there is no proof whatsoever that the industry is being hurt.

Is the industry being hurt morally? Are the corporations being scorned, and subsequently, their feelings being hurt? Sad face.

These people CANNOT buy these games because in most cases, it is the equivalent of you having to pay retail on a new TV, for the price of a single game, in relevance to the level of their country's inflation/economy. It just can't happen. This isn't - "Oh, I'm short on cash this month, I have to go without for now." - it is - "Wow, that game costs as much as my mortgage payment, guess I have to go without forever." There is no "saving up", or counting pennies, it just never will be.

My whole point is, if these companies are going to piss and moan all day long, 365 days a week, and spend millions on DRM saying that pirates are to blame for some unfounded "hurt to the industry", then they deserve every loss they get, From That. Their losses are from their paranoia, not mine, or anyone else's. Until they can provide quantifiable proof that the majority of "pirates", leeching and seeding every single day, are all a lost sale, each and every one of them, then there never will be any justification for the action they take against their paying customers, or the people they ridicule.
you know if companies just stopped putting money into drm wouldn't that make up for most if not all or the pirated sales?
 

ModReap

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Apr 3, 2008
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LordNue said:
If the simple fact is that you can't afford games then you can do without them. Games are a luxury, not a requirement for life. If you can't afford the price on something then you don't really have the right to own it, do you? Just because no one gets hurt doesn't make it right.
Ding ding ding!
We have a winner!
 

Steppin Razor

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Dec 15, 2009
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tjcross said:
Suck it.
if one cannot acquire an item legally due to the limit of the copies i see no problem in pirating an item that in no way effects the company since the item is not physical anyway it's a program on a chunk of plastic newer games i do have a problem with since when you have the money and see it at the store most would not buy something they already have let us put this in my way of thinking
new game =no profit to store (the company was already paid by the store)
difficulty: easy to find
old game=no profit to some guy on e-bay or no profit because it is not on sale
difficulty:depending medium to impossible to find and very inconvenient (possibility of being lost or the the wrong item being shipped possibilty of being in bad condition or not working all together)
plus this individual buys an item of the company to make up for it so basicly he's taking some trash from the company and on the way out he's buying somthing they are selling i see nothing wrong.
now that that is out of the way i'm going back to my life do with yours what you will and by the way have a wonderful day
*facepalm*
Here's what I said straight afterwards:

Moving on from that, if a product is no longer produced then the company isn't making money from it anymore. Legally it falls into a bit of a grey area, but I don't really consider it all that bad. Especially if you then go and buy something else the developers made.
Maybe I could have made it clearer, but I'm tired and stuck at work so I'll attempt to now. If a game is no longer produced and you can't find copies of it anywhere, I fully support the downloading. Legally it falls into a grey area, but morally I have no issue with it as the company stands to make no profit no matter how you get it. Besides that, she was buying products that the company still offers so I respect her stance on it. It's certainly a hell of a lot more than I would do for most developers when their products fall by the wayside.
 

Quaidis

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Jun 1, 2008
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I have a friend in the Netherlands who pirates games and I find it a whole different thing than American, European, Australian, and Japanese gamers that pirate heavily.

The main reason I don't mind that he does is that he does not get the releases that normal gamers thrive on. He was bawing over the fact that Artilier Iris 3 is coming out on the PS3, but not in the Netherlands. How most rpgs in history are completely missing from his land's history. I think this is the main reason that pirating is so big in some places.

That's okay. He can pirate those games if he can't get them by other means.

Then he has a problem of the other games being largely over-priced. They are. Importing and shipments to random smaller countries jacks up the price like none other. That and he will buy a game if he has money, usually doing so for a company he loves or a game he pirates, then later is able to afford a copy of.

Now if I have a friend in, say, Canada who does nothing but pirate games and believes that he can take games for free because he doesn't feel the need to pay. Even if the games are readily available for pocket-change price on the shelf. They are pretty bad and need a talking to.
 

12capital

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Krelias said:
I live in Romania where the minimum wage varies around 350 euros (430 dollars) and the average new release costs around 40 euro (50 dollars) most of the times more expensive than in the US or UK for example(this i think is beacause they fall in a certain category of products that are heavly taxed). Here software piracy is a way of life most releases are played waaay before the hit the stores and most people justify their abuse of software piracy by their lack of money to spend on games or other software.

Now, i respect the western point of view that intelectual property and creation in general has to be financially rewarded otherwise the entertainment business would cease to exist but for most people here if there wouldn't be piracy they wouldn't afford to buy games -period- so if you look at it my way verry few potential customers are lost really.

I know that the argument against what i'm saying would be something along the lines of: "people who use pirated software just don't care about morals or the fate of the sudios that developed their favourite games" and i have to admit that i've seen that mentality showcased around those around me "why pay money for something i can get for free" or "i will never pay for a game as long as there's piracy" and i agree that those people no matter how hardcore they think they are don't deserve to be called gamers, but i've also seen recently people who save up to buy the most anticipated titles or sequels to their favourites, even collectors editions after playing a game just to reward the satisfaction given to them by that game's developers.

Romanian society as a whole is really primitive when it comes to understanding a market economy even if it's been around for twenty years, but people are starting to understand why it is better to buy rather then steal even when it comes to software. Even if things are starting too look up piracy remains rampant cause it simply determined by economy.

So my question is "should someone feel guilty for pirating a software that he or she can't afford ?" since there's really no affected party involved i mean the developer is losing only the chance to sell the product to one more person who wouldn't have aforded it anyway.
I'm sorry but you're whole argument is rendered void by the simple fact just because you can't afford something doesn't mean you can take it. Using the inability to purchase items doesn't make it right to steal them. That would mean you have some kind of entitlement to the product, which you don't, it was worked on for many thousands of hours and the producers have a right to charge people to play their hard work. I would love to get every game I want, however I can't afford to buy that many, therefore I play what I can and make smart choices based on replay value.