Is porn sexist? Yes, but so what?

[TrollFase]

All I have to say about this: Rule 34.

Of course porn is sexist.

And that's why I stick with trees.

 

[Arakasi]

Sexist porn is sexist

Why even watch porn when you CAN USE YOUR IMAGINAAAAAATION?!

Somehow I doubt that's what Spongebob had in mind...

 

[Quaxar]

There is porn for ... asexuals

So... peopel not actually having sex? Because unless the whole point of asexulity is that you aren't interested in sex. I'm sorry, but I don't understand how asexual porn would exist.

.

I'm sure there is . Weirder things have happened . But i mostly added as a joke not wanting to exclude anyone. Maybe some intellectual arousal .

"Uh, oh, don't give it to me you beast! Yes, yes, yes, don't ever fuck me!"

I could watch that.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

I don't understand the objection to sexism anyway. Nothing wrong with treating people differently who are, you know, different.

 

[peruvianskys]

Now, for some reason, there always seems to be that question circulating (especially among the more vocal, for lack of a better word, antisexual - or just right-wing - people) around: is porn sexist? To be honest, I think that's a stupid question. If we're deconstructing the actual definition of "sexist", then yes, porn is sexist. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's the fucking point.

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

I think if someone is legitimately concerned about whether or not porn is sexist, they have so little knowledge on both sexism and porn that they really shouldn't be granted any authority on the matter or attention for trying to bring the topic up. There are so many things wrong with the very question of "Is porn sexist" that if somebody needs them explained to them, it can't even be considered a discussion anymore. It would be like a person who doesn't understand gravity trying to have a serious discussion about the tides[footnote]Insert Bill O'Reilly joke here.[/footnote]. It's just an exercise in futility.

 

[Risingblade]

Is the porn with the dominatrix sexist too?

 

[CarlsonAndPeeters]

I don't understand the objection to sexism anyway. Nothing wrong with treating people differently who are, you know, different.

That's just not what sexism is. Its treating people worse, not differently. Yes, men and women are different. No, women are not inferior.

OT: Here's what I see as the "sexism" issue in porn. Yeah, porn is kinda sexist: the vast majority of porn is a guy having sex with a girl like she's an object and she loves him for it. Its unrealistic, its stupid, but it gets us off so we don't mind. I see no problem with that; porn is just a jerk off tool.

The problem comes when people fail to realize that porn is not real. And this is a real issue. A lot of guys I've met don't understand that women are not objects and that every girl is not dying to have sex with you. This is the sexist ideal that porn teaches, and people believe it.

So yes, I think porn is sexist, no, I don't think we should get rid of porn, but I do think its a sexism that we should be aware of.

 

[Adamantium93]

One thing about porn: Even if it was sexist (which it isn't, because porn covers so many different genres of porn for every possible fetish that it is impossible to blanket all porn with one adjective), you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Really, porn is just one of those things that doesn't care what you think.

 

[Burst6]

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

This is like saying violent video games encourage violence. It doesn't work that way. Porn won't turn a decent man who respects women into a wife beating misogynist. It doesn't send any message. It's meant to be a simple fantasy aimed for the masturbatory enjoyment of its target gender and sexuality. And yes, porn aimed at men is often degrading towards women and is intended as a male fantasy, but so what? What's wrong with having a harmless output for that fantasy?

 

[Lilani]

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

Well, not always. I've seen a bit of porn in my day, and while it's usually geared toward men, I don't think it can be said the women weren't having a good time themselves. Not to mention the whole dichotomy of S&M and women finding pleasure in being degraded (or men finding pleasure in being degraded). Most porn made is for men so it features men "being in charge," so to speak, but there's just so much of it and so many different foreplays, fetishes, and power dichotomies out there I think it's impossible to say that all porn made features women being treated strictly as objects.

And if the argument you're making is that women are the ones being degraded just because they're being fucked on camera, then unless you're going to argue in that process the man isn't getting fucked as well, the argument has to work both ways. It's easy to say that because the man is on top and he's got his hands on her that he's the one "using her," but unless you're going to just pretend she isn't getting anything out of it, it isn't always that simple.

 

[lwm3398]

There is porn for men , women , homosexuals,transexuals , transgenders , asexuals and everything in between .

The concept of "porn for asexuals" is intriguing in its own right.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

I don't understand the objection to sexism anyway. Nothing wrong with treating people differently who are, you know, different.

That's just not what sexism is. Its treating people worse, not differently. Yes, men and women are different. No, women are not inferior.

'Inferior' as a quality is a perspective. If you are going to assume difference, in your treatment of someone you are going to have to also adopt a perspective on whether that difference is better or worse.

 

[corvuscorrax]

How does the saying go?

You don't pay a hooker to have sex with you.

You pay her to leave afterwards.

 

[Lilani]

'Inferior' as a quality is a perspective. If you are going to assume difference, in your treatment of someone you are going to have to also adopt a perspective on whether that difference is better or worse.

sex·ism   [sek-siz-uhm]noun
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexism?s=t

There's the textbook definition, for you. Since what constitutes traditional gender roles is pretty well established in the world of academia already, that doesn't leave a lot of room for "perspective."

 

[peruvianskys]

This is like saying violent video games encourage violence. It doesn't work that way. Porn won't turn a decent man who respects women into a wife beating misogynist. It doesn't send any message. It's meant to be a simple fantasy aimed for the masturbatory enjoyment of its target gender and sexuality. And yes, porn aimed at men is often degrading towards women and is intended as a male fantasy, but so what? What's wrong with having a harmless output for that fantasy?

But it's not harmless. And let me be clear, I don't think pornography turns nice gentlemen into slobbering rapists. I do, however, think that pornography:

1) is motivated by the same internalized, nurtured misogyny that motivates rape, and

2) is incredibly influential when it comes to how men see women and women's bodies in terms of sexual interaction.

Pornography perpetuates the idea that women's bodies exist as things that can be bought and sold in the pursuit of male pleasure. It isn't benign; the acceptance of pornography, which is nothing more than the belief that women exist as objects to be fucked put into action, bolsters the general idea that a woman's body is male property, a collection of holes that exist to make men come. And that dehumanization and objectification is precisely the base of the rape culture. The two feed off each other. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men who see consent as irrelevant because they've been taught that female bodies are owed to them, that a good woman is one who fucks, and that it's okay to "take what you can get." Those ideas are reflected verbatim in the vast majority of pornography.

Porn doesn't cause rape, but it does reflect and justify it.

Well, not always. I've seen a bit of porn in my day, and while it's usually geared toward men, I don't think it can be said the women weren't having a good time themselves. Not to mention the whole dichotomy of S&M and women finding pleasure in being degraded (or men finding pleasure in being degraded). Most porn made is for men so it features men "being in charge," so to speak, but there's just so much of it and so many different foreplays, fetishes, and power dichotomies out there I think it's impossible to say that all porn made features women being treated strictly as objects.

Does it matter if the woman is enjoying it? Does that change what I'm saying? Women are human beings who are capable of making decisions, and they're free to consent to getting fucked. That doesn't change the fact the the industry around the action and the product that comes from the action is misogynistic and shitty.

Hundreds of black actors made their livings in minstrel shows; does that mean minstrel shows aren't racist?

And if the argument you're making is that women are the ones being degraded just because they're being fucked on camera, then unless you're going to argue in that process the man isn't getting fucked as well, the argument has to work both ways. It's easy to say that because the man is on top and he's got his hands on her that he's the one "using her," but unless you're going to just pretend she isn't getting anything out of it, it isn't always that simple.

Pornography always displays a power dynamic in sex where 99% of the time the man is completely and totally in charge and the woman is essentially a semen receptacle that can moan. Men are portrayed as powerful, strong, potent, and desirous, while women are portrayed as weak, submissive, vulnerable, willing, and without desires of their own. I'm sure some men are degraded in porn - hell, porn is degrading to anyone who comes in contact with it because it's nothing but the soulless mass production of what used to be a human act. It's degrading to everyone, but it's got special contempt for women.

 

[Lilani]

Does it matter if the woman is enjoying it? Does that change what I'm saying? Women are human beings who are capable of making decisions, and they're free to consent to getting fucked. That doesn't change the fact the the industry around the action and the product that comes from the action is misogynistic and shitty.

What about it is misogynistic? You still haven't specified this. Is it the action that is happening on screen, or how the audience enjoys it? Because since you agree women are capable of making decisions and consenting to getting fucked, then that can't be the misogynistic part. So the only thing I can guess you're seeing misogyny in is the audience and what they take from the media. Which begs the question, does that actually make the media itself sexist? If the fact that somebody can view the media and those involved in an objectifying and misogynistic way, then technically everything is misogynistic. If there has ever been a single man who has ever gotten off on anything that involves a female--The Little Mermaid, My Little Pony, The Lion King, Pocahontas, Robin Hood--that makes that media sexist. If you believe the misogyny of the audience causes the media itself to be misogynistic, that is the logic you are ascribing to.

Hundreds of black actors made their livings in minstrel shows; does that mean minstrel shows aren't racist?

My point isn't that porn is never sexist. There are plenty of pornos that have men totally degrading women. My point is just that it's not always sexist.

And so what if it is? It's all about target audience. The benefits and downsides of having media markets based on sexism and racism and the like can be debated, however the fact is those markets exist and a free-market means people are allowed to capitalize on them. Just because you happen to disagree with the viewpoint being shared doesn't automatically mean they have less of a right to sell it than you do.