Is porn sexist? Yes, but so what?

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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peruvianskys said:
Pornography always displays a power dynamic in sex where 99% of the time the man is completely and totally in charge and the woman is essentially a semen receptacle that can moan. Men are portrayed as powerful, strong, potent, and desirous, while women are portrayed as weak, submissive, vulnerable, willing, and without desires of their own. I'm sure some men are degraded in porn - hell, porn is degrading to anyone who comes in contact with it because it's nothing but the soulless mass production of what used to be a human act. It's degrading to everyone, but it's got special contempt for women.
Sorry, forgot to reply to this bit in the last post. Again, I say, so what? Who cares? The only problem you've presented so far is that you disagree with what's going on. Well I disagree with Justin Beiber's music, but I'm not about to say he can't publish it. There is a target audience for that, and they aim for it. But believe me that there are plenty of pornos where women are on top. Hell, there's stuff where the woman has a man tied up on his knees and she's stepping on his cock wearing stilettos.

I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm a woman. And I really couldn't care less about how women are displayed in porn. Seriously, I could search through my apartment all night and I don't think I could ever find a single fuck to give on the matter. Some men enjoy that, hell sometimes I've enjoyed that myself. Oh dear, the thought of being a bit helpless at the hands of a man turns me on, what a paradox of sexuality I am! Please, do tell me how wrong I am for liking that sort of thing. Tell me why me liking that is misogynistic. I can't wait to hear that explanation.

Again, the only problem you've put forward is that you don't like it. Well here's my advice if that's the case: then don't watch it. Hell, I think you're the one who's being misogynistic here. You seem to think there's something wrong with women expressing and fulfilling their sexuality in certain ways. You think it's your business where a woman is when she lets a man into her passage. You think you know better than her when it comes to how she should enjoy sex. You think there are only certain ways she should have sex, or at the very least there are only certain ways it should be recorded that she's having sex. Why don't you just let these women do what they want to do? As you said, they're consenting, so where the fuck does your opinion come into play?

I mean, how much more misogynistic does it get than that: you literally write the woman's pleasure and consent off as irrelevant because you think she's having sex wrong.
 

Burst6

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peruvianskys said:
Burst6 said:
This is like saying violent video games encourage violence. It doesn't work that way. Porn won't turn a decent man who respects women into a wife beating misogynist. It doesn't send any message. It's meant to be a simple fantasy aimed for the masturbatory enjoyment of its target gender and sexuality. And yes, porn aimed at men is often degrading towards women and is intended as a male fantasy, but so what? What's wrong with having a harmless output for that fantasy?
But it's not harmless. And let me be clear, I don't think pornography turns nice gentlemen into slobbering rapists. I do, however, think that pornography:

1) is motivated by the same internalized, nurtured misogyny that motivates rape, and

2) is incredibly influential when it comes to how men see women and women's bodies in terms of sexual interaction.

Pornography perpetuates the idea that women's bodies exist as things that can be bought and sold in the pursuit of male pleasure. It isn't benign; the acceptance of pornography, which is nothing more than the belief that women exist as objects to be fucked put into action, bolsters the general idea that a woman's body is male property, a collection of holes that exist to make men come. And that dehumanization and objectification is precisely the base of the rape culture. The two feed off each other. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men who see consent as irrelevant because they've been taught that female bodies are owed to them, that a good woman is one who fucks, and that it's okay to "take what you can get." Those ideas are reflected verbatim in the vast majority of pornography.

Porn doesn't cause rape, but it does reflect and justify it.
You said yourself pornography doesn't cause rape. What's the problem again? It shouldn't be accepted because a person that will commit rape anyway without it may rape?

And no, pornography isn't the belief that women exist purely for sex. Like i said, it's pure and simple masturbatory material for its target audience and nothing as complicated as what you're saying. To back myself up consider male homosexual pornography. The fact that it exists and people enjoy it suggests that what i'm saying is true.

You said that it's motivated by nurtured misogyny that motivates rape. No, it's motivated by sexuality, which is an undeniable part of humanity. There's pornography for everything and everyone. Men, women, transsexuals, everything. There is pornography for things that have no focus at all on women. There's plenty of porn for women too. It is a basic expression of human sexuality and the idea of pornography itself has nothing to do with objectifying women.
 

peruvianskys

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Lilani said:
What about it is misogynistic? You still haven't specified this. Is it the action that is happening on screen, or how the audience enjoys it? Because since you agree women are capable of making decisions and consenting to getting fucked, then that can't be the misogynistic part.
I think that even a cursory examination of the high levels of sexual abuse, childhood molestation, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. will show you that the porn industry does not exactly trade in the most healthy and sound individuals.


So the only thing I can guess you're seeing misogyny in is the audience and what they take from the media. Which begs the question, does that actually make the media itself sexist? If the fact that somebody can view the media and those involved in an objectifying and misogynistic way, then technically everything is misogynistic.
The difference is that while video of breast examines are not intended for misogynistic masturbation fodder, the entire porn industry condones, encourages, and actively depends on people viewing their products in a misogynistic light.

If there has ever been a single man who has ever gotten off on anything that involves a female--The Little Mermaid, My Little Pony, The Lion King, --that makes that media sexist. If you believe the misogyny of the audience causes the media itself to be misogynistic, that is the logic you are ascribing to.
You're being ridiculous, and your logical fallacy is not worth my time.

And so what if it is? It's all about target audience. The benefits and downsides of having media markets based on sexism and racism and the like can be debated, however the fact is those markets exist and a free-market means people are allowed to capitalize on them. Just because you happen to disagree with the viewpoint being shared doesn't automatically mean they have less of a right to sell it than you do.
Where did I fucking say that I want to ban porn at all? Because I don't. People are free to do whatever they want, just like I'm free to say that it's shitty.

Lilani said:
Sorry, forgot to reply to this bit in the last post. Again, I say, so what? Who cares? The only problem you've presented so far is that you disagree with what's going on. Well I disagree with Justin Beiber's music, but I'm not about to say he can't publish it. There is a target audience for that, and they aim for it. But believe me that there are plenty of pornos where women are on top. Hell, there's stuff where the woman has a man tied up on his knees and she's stepping on his cock wearing stilettos.
I'm aware how porn works, thank you.

I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm a woman. And I really couldn't care less about how women are displayed in porn. Seriously, I could search through my apartment all night and I don't think I could ever find a single fuck to give on the matter. Some men enjoy that, hell sometimes I've enjoyed that myself. Oh dear, the thought of being a bit helpless at the hands of a man turns me on, what a paradox of sexuality I am! Please, do tell me how wrong I am for liking that sort of thing. Tell me why me liking that is misogynistic. I can't wait to hear that explanation.
Have I ever, ever insinuated or implied in any way that bondage, sub/dom dynamics, or other sexualities are wrong or bad or misogynistic?

There's a difference between a woman entering into a trusting, mutually respectful sexual relationship that involves degradation and abuse versus a woman being paid spare change to get roughed up by strangers who will then sell the tapes to men who want to act their misogynistic, androcentric fantasies. One is a legitimate, healthy, appropriate sexual relationship and the other is a consumer-driven, capitalistic, soulless endeavor driven by greed and patriarchal assumptions about women's sexuality.

Again, the only problem you've put forward is that you don't like it. Well here's my advice if that's the case: then don't watch it.
My problem isn't that I don't like it, it's that I think it's shitty and destructive. How it affects me has nothing to do with it.

Hell, I think you're the one who's being misogynistic here. You seem to think there's something wrong with women expressing and fulfilling their sexuality in certain ways.
You are lying to yourself if you believe that pornography depicts women "expressing and fulfilling their sexuality." That's not what porn is. That might be the fantasy, the facade of decency, but that's not what it is.


You think it's your business where a woman is when she lets a man into her passage. You think you know better than her when it comes to how she should enjoy sex. You think there are only certain ways she should have sex, or at the very least there are only certain ways it should be recorded that she's having sex. Why don't you just let these women do what they want to do? As you said, they're consenting, so where the fuck does your opinion come into play?
Your ad hominems are useless. I don't care what the fuck women do. What I care about is what MEN do, mainly selling women's bodies for profit and sexual fulfillment through channels that subsist solely on male aggression and sexual dominance.

It's not about women. It's about men. Why are you trying to smear me instead of addressing my points?
 

peruvianskys

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Burst6 said:
You said yourself pornography doesn't cause rape. What's the problem again? It shouldn't be accepted because a person that will commit rape anyway without it may rape?
No, it shouldn't be accepted because it contributes to a larger cultural landscape that condones and encourages rape - just because something doesn't have a causal 1-to-1 relationship doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Do handguns "cause" higher murder rates? Not by themselves, but the ownership and trade of guns helps contribute to a gun culture that certainly encourages violence.


And no, pornography isn't the belief that women exist purely for sex. Like i said, it's pure and simple masturbatory material for its target audience and nothing as complicated as what you're saying. To back myself up consider male homosexual pornography. The fact that it exists and people enjoy it suggests that what i'm saying is true.
To say that a depiction of a woman engaging in sexual intercourse is "pure and simple masturbation material" is to say that the woman is being reduced to a sexual aid instead of a human being.

You said that it's motivated by nurtured misogyny that motivates rape. No, it's motivated by sexuality, which is an undeniable part of humanity. There's pornography for everything and everyone. Men, women, transsexuals, everything. There is pornography for things that have no focus at all on women. There's plenty of porn for women too. It is a basic expression of human sexuality and the idea of pornography itself has nothing to do with objectifying women.
First off, there's a huge difference between the monolithic entity of the "porn industry" and any possible depiction of sexuality. Just like I'm comfortable saying that Nazism is shitty, even though there might be some good Nazis out there, I'm comfortable saying porn is shitty even if some people can dredge up some reactionary "look we aren't misogynistic look look!" production to validate an industry that is DEPENDENT on negative views towards women.
 

Snowblindblitz

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I think porn is very sexist.

Anytime I meet a girl who likes porn, I know I won't meet expectations.

Most guys in porn look the same. And that is a damn hard stereotype to live up to. The, uuumm, 6 pack and, 8 and up club.
 

Tiger Sora

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Adamantium93 said:
One thing about porn: Even if it was sexist (which it isn't, because porn covers so many different genres of porn for every possible fetish that it is impossible to blanket all porn with one adjective), you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Really, porn is just one of those things that doesn't care what you think.
Ahh but you forgot the most magically versatile word of them all. How odd due to it's abundant use these days, even though no one ever seems to have one to spare.

Yes I'm talking about the F word.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've no other reason to be here.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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peruvianskys said:
I think that even a cursory examination of the high levels of sexual abuse, childhood molestation, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. will show you that the porn industry does not exactly trade in the most healthy and sound individuals.
If you're going to equate the perfectly legal market of pornography to the perfectly illegal actions of sexual and child abuse, I think it's pretty clear you have no intention of engaging this discussion on any plane of reality. Again, just because you do not partake does not make something illegitimate, and just because something can be abused or used in a negative manner doesn't mean it just shouldn't exist. Hell, we tried getting rid of alcohol once already, and that lead to a pretty humiliating backfire.

The difference is that while video of breast examines are not intended for misogynistic masturbation fodder, the entire porn industry condones, encourages, and actively depends on people viewing their products in a misogynistic light.
And...? What exactly is the difference? Both are making a profit off of people buying the product for "misogynistic" reasons. The result is the same. What difference does it make if one is doing it consciously? You seem to have a problem with the very fact that people are getting a "misogynistic" hard-on from it, so just eliminating the porn industry wouldn't solve that problem.

Where did I fucking say that I want to ban porn at all? Because I don't. People are free to do whatever they want, just like I'm free to say that it's shitty.
For somebody who doesn't feel compelled to find a way to stop it you sure seem to think it's having a totally apocalyptic impact on society. Sorry that I made this assumption, it's just always been my experience that people who have such strong feelings against pornography would gleefully take steps to eliminate it if the opportunity arose.

I'm aware how porn works, thank you.
You really had me wondering there, for a while.

Have I ever, ever insinuated or implied in any way that bondage, sub/dom dynamics, or other sexualities are wrong or bad or misogynistic?

There's a difference between a woman entering into a trusting, mutually respectful sexual relationship that involves degradation and abuse versus a woman being paid spare change to get roughed up by strangers who will then sell the tapes to men who want to act their misogynistic, androcentric fantasies. One is a legitimate, healthy, appropriate sexual relationship and the other is a consumer-driven, capitalistic, soulless endeavor driven by greed and patriarchal assumptions about women's sexuality.
Okay, so here's what's been happening in this conversation from my perspective:

You have been claiming that "pornography" (non-specific, could be any branch of it, I assumed it was the 100% consensual and legal part of the industry) is always inherently misogynistic, always done at the woman's expense, and is always abusive towards her.

If you were referring to women who are borderline non-consensual, you should have said so. Up until this point, you have pretty much been saying the entire porn industry is made up of people in non-mutually respectable sexual relationships. Of course I don't support that, and I don't think anybody here would. If that is the part of the porn industry you wanted to talk about, you should have said earlier. Because that is certainly not what I'm talking about, or everyone else for that matter. We're talking about the 100% legit porn industry, with regulations and happy, consensual workers. And that is what I'll be continuing to talk about from now on, as the non-legit porn industry is a separate discussion as far as I'm concerned.

You are lying to yourself if you believe that pornography depicts women "expressing and fulfilling their sexuality." That's not what porn is. That might be the fantasy, the facade of decency, but that's not what it is.
If she's enjoying it, who cares? How is that your business? Again, I can't think of anything more misogynistic than telling a woman who agreed to have sex under certain conditions that she's "doing it wrong." So she's decided to let somebody use her and her vagina a certain way. What does that have to do with you?

Your ad hominems are useless. I don't care what the fuck women do. What I care about is what MEN do, mainly selling women's bodies for profit and sexual fulfillment through channels that subsist solely on male aggression and sexual dominance.

It's not about women. It's about men. Why are you trying to smear me instead of addressing my points?
What points? So far, I've gotten that you disagree with women being pressured into situations they don't want to be in (which I also disagree with) and you disapprove of the way other women happily and consensually allow their vaginas to be used (which I find to be in and of itself misogynistic, putting your opinion of what she should be doing with her body above the pleasure she has sought out). Have I missed anything?
 

Burst6

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peruvianskys said:
No, it shouldn't be accepted because it contributes to a larger cultural landscape that condones and encourages rape - just because something doesn't have a causal 1-to-1 relationship doesn't mean you can just ignore it.

Do handguns "cause" higher murder rates? Not by themselves, but the ownership and trade of guns helps contribute to a gun culture that certainly encourages violence.
This is drawing so many parallels to the whole "video games contribute to violence" argument. I think that the massive debates this website had about how people are able to differentiate between fantasy and reality and how people that commit violent acts because of what they were taught by their parents or psychological issues and not because of the entertainment itself said my argument for me on this a long time ago.

Also the gun thing has a very loose bearing on the topic at hand, and even then a lot of people can easily argue that they don't help encourage violence. It's being hotly debated everywhere right now, like the fun gun control threads we have here on the escapist.


To say that a depiction of a woman engaging in sexual intercourse is "pure and simple masturbation material" is to say that the woman is being reduced to a sexual aid instead of a human being.
And so is the man, or whoever else is participating in the scene. That's pornography. It's just supposed to be about sex. Everyone is reduced to a sexual aid to help get to the sex scenes faster.

First off, there's a huge difference between the monolithic entity of the "porn industry" and any possible depiction of sexuality. Just like I'm comfortable saying that Nazism is shitty, even though there might be some good Nazis out there, I'm comfortable saying porn is shitty even if some people can dredge up some reactionary "look we aren't misogynistic look look!" production to validate an industry that is DEPENDENT on negative views towards women.
And just what is your criteria for pornography that is or isn't misogynist? You implied for a while that all pornography was misogynist, so i couldn't gather that from any of your posts.
 

Ryan Minns

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It is very sexist, seriously, massive sized penises, last 30+ minutes of CONSTANT action? Making the woman sound like she's having the greatest time ever and only a man with a 50000000 inch cock and unforgiving stamina is the only one who can make them scream like that gives a disgusting representation of men. Sure I have had hourly+ sessions before but that was with slowdowns in between but I believe this misrepresentation of the male gender does indeed need to stop!


In all seriousness though when we're talking strictly mainstream porn one could say there is a difference in how each gender is treated but first of all the woman chooses this and probably does enjoy her job a great deal and sex in general(Many female pornstars are quite intelligent and actively sought out the profession because they enjoyed the idea) and women get paid a metric fuck ton more than their male(s) counterpart so calling it sexist is probably more sexist in itself due to the fact it's telling a woman she's wrong for making her own decisions in life and getting paid well for it...
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Relish in Chaos said:
Now, for some reason, there always seems to be that question circulating (especially among the more vocal, for lack of a better word, antisexual - or just right-wing - people) around: is porn sexist? To be honest, I think that's a stupid question. If we're deconstructing the actual definition of "sexist", then yes, porn is sexist. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's the fucking point.
You've aligned the right wing with gender studies? The religious right aren't going to claim that porn is sexist. They'd be far more likely to claim it's immoral.

Right off the bat, I'm disappointed with this thread.

SaintlyTurkey said:
The majority of porn is aimed at Straight men.

To make it less sexist they'd have to do things that'd squick out the majority of the people watching it, like focusing on the men participating in the act rather than the women.
You know there's more to sexism than the makeup of the cast or who gets the most screen time, right? There's recurring themes, the portrayal of women, who has control/lack of it, the roles of the parties involved. A lot of porn portrays men as suave and women as vapid and gullible. I misplaced a link to a more comprehensive website, but this Wikipedia article contains a decent overview of how men and women are portrayed in advertising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_advertisement

Wikipedia said:
Masculinity in advertising
In advertising, men are often portrayed in the following ways:[5]
-Alert and conscious of surroundings
-Standing upright
-Eyes open and looking around
-Bodies are controlled
-Mean expression on face
-Gripping things tightly with hands
-Hands in pockets
-Serious
-Physically active

Femininity in advertising
Woman as delicate, not alert, and self-touching: Feminine
Portrayals of women in advertising:[5]
-Touching self
-Caressing an object
-Lying on the floor
-Sitting on a bed or chair
-Eyes closed
-Not alert
-Confused
-Vulnerable
-Body contorted
-Dressed like a child
-Holding an object or a man for support
-Sexy and sexually available
-Seductive
-Playful
That said, it would be a mistake to use advertising analysis directly on porn; when the people involved are in the process of having sex it's a different context, one in which self-touching actually makes sense.

Surprisingly Dan Savage has a harsher critique about porn's tone. Dan did a show recently where he described that (and I'm paraphrasing) a lot of porn seemed to him to be very aggressive, almost a depiction of revenge against women for the imagined male viewer who isn't getting laid.

I can see how, considering sex-ed funding is being cut (and the sex-education and discourse that does exist basically begins and ends with 'don't get pregnant') and a downright depressing amount of people get their information from porn that the portrayal of women in porn is a concern for women.

I'm not saying that it's porn's job to educate men or that porn shouldn't indulge male fantasies about control over women... it's just that it doesn't have to be overwhelmingly negative or diminishing towards women. That's not everyone's requirement for getting their rocks off, but from the majority of porn you wouldn't know it.
lwm3398 said:
krazykidd said:
There is porn for men , women , homosexuals,transexuals , transgenders , asexuals and everything in between .
The concept of "porn for asexuals" is intriguing in its own right.
Oh, they have tumblr photo blogs about cake.
 

peruvianskys

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Lilani said:
If you're going to equate the perfectly legal market of pornography to the perfectly illegal actions of sexual and child abuse, I think it's pretty clear you have no intention of engaging this discussion on any plane of reality. Again, just because you do not partake does not make something illegitimate, and just because something can be abused or used in a negative manner doesn't mean it just shouldn't exist. Hell, we tried getting rid of alcohol once already, and that lead to a pretty humiliating backfire.
I'm not equating them - I'm saying that women who work in pornography do have a higher than average chance of being sexually abused as children, in sexually abusive relationships, addicting to drugs, or other shitty things that shatter the whole "friendly happy porn" image that you seem to have bought into.

And...? What exactly is the difference? Both are making a profit off of people buying the product for "misogynistic" reasons. The result is the same. What difference does it make if one is doing it consciously? You seem to have a problem with the very fact that people are getting a "misogynistic" hard-on from it, so just eliminating the porn industry wouldn't solve that problem.
Of course it wouldn't. Do you think I'm arguing that porn is the root of all evil?

For somebody who doesn't feel compelled to find a way to stop it you sure seem to think it's having a totally apocalyptic impact on society. Sorry that I made this assumption, it's just always been my experience that people who have such strong feelings against pornography would gleefully take steps to eliminate it if the opportunity arose.
Well that's your fault for assuming - I have no interest in laws that make a woman's body "dirty" or "shameful." I have an interest in social movements that give young women better options than degradation on camera.

Okay, so here's what's been happening in this conversation from my perspective:

You have been claiming that "pornography" (non-specific, could be any branch of it, I assumed it was the 100% consensual and legal part of the industry) is always inherently misogynistic, always done at the woman's expense, and is always abusive towards her.
I'm saying that the industry relies on and encourages misogyny, and that without patriarchy and sexism, the porn industry as we know it could not possibly exist.

If you were referring to women who are borderline non-consensual, you should have said so. Up until this point, you have pretty much been saying the entire porn industry is made up of people in non-mutually respectable sexual relationships. Of course I don't support that, and I don't think anybody here would.
I hardly think that a young woman being paid to let strangers fuck her for the entertainment of strangers is edifying or healthy for most people. And if you disagree then I suggest you do some research on how "into it" most porn performers are. It's not all Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy - today's it's equally likely to be Olga the poor Hungarian woman and a man dangling money in front of her, or Claire, the sexually insecure teenager seeking male approval.

It doesn't matter anyway - just because a woman consents to doing something doesn't mean that such an action has to be a positive thing for women. Phyllis Schafly argues against abortion rights and Ann Coulter doesn't think women should vote. Is it wrong for me to say that such things are negatives for women too?


If she's enjoying it, who cares? How is that your business? Again, I can't think of anything more misogynistic than telling a woman who agreed to have sex under certain conditions that she's "doing it wrong." So she's decided to let somebody use her and her vagina a certain way. What does that have to do with you?
Again, back to the minstrel shows. Just because one person is okay with doing something that negatively influences cultural attitudes towards the group the belong to, suddenly that action is beyond reproach? As a Jew, if I joined the Nazi party, would it be anti-Semitic to say that I did something shitty?

What points? So far, I've gotten that you disagree with women being pressured into situations they don't want to be in (which I also disagree with) and you disapprove of the way other women happily and consensually allow their vaginas to be used (which I find to be in and of itself misogynistic, putting your opinion of what she should be doing with her body above the pleasure she has sought out). Have I missed anything?
You've missed the part where I say that pornography, as a concept and as an industry, encourages negative views of women and women's sexuality that feed directly into the larger culture of rape and misogyny. This isn't about individual women or attacking performers for doing anything; it's about taking to task the men, and yes, it is largely men by far, who make money off selling stereotypes and shitty, fucked-up messages to sexist men.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Could someone please TELL me what the 'actual definition' of sexist is? Because honestly I haven't seen one yet, and the OP seems to know what it is.

I don't think porn is sexist.

Oh no he didn't!

Really, while it portrays females often as subservient and idealised physically and whatnot, porn does not make any pretence that this is normal. They're ridiculous scenarios, and I don't buy that humans would ever interact in that way. In games, I have an issue with realistic games that portray females in a way that conflicts with real life, because that implies that whoever made the game thought the portrayal was realistic. Fighting games though, which are pretty much the most reliable source of idealised females in games, do not say or even imply that it's commonplace. The game's universe is ridiculous and so their females can be however they want, it has not bearing on real life. Lastly, games that have a semi-realistic universe (Gears of War, for example) vary, but generally are based on human society, and thus are still sexist for having unfair portrayals of females if they conflict with the rest of the game's universe.

tl;dr porn is not trying to be anything like real life, and thus can idealise every woman and have them act however it likes because it is not reflecting reality.

So there you go. Have at.
 

Thaluikhain

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A few things.

Firstly, while there are all sorts of porn out there, it's not equally proportioned, there are definite trends towards some things more than others. Porn defaults to white women for the pleasure of men. It's not all that there is, but it's teh majority. However, this is merely a reflection (perhaps reinforcement) of social trends.

Secondly, whether or not you think that porn is of itself sexist, the porn industry definitely has issues. Even in the civilised world, there is a lot of very dubious goings on that could do with some scrutiny.

Thirdly, again whether or not you think that porn is of itself sexist, porn gets used as sex education, and this has real social implications. You have women getting labiaplasty because they feel abnormal for not looking like pornstars, shaving and waxing was popularised by porn, etc. There's an expectation that women should be into the things pornstars are paid to do, and this isn't healthy.

Now, these aren't to do with porn as such, rather the way society deals with it, but that's the way things are.
 

Derek Westlund

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i read every single post in yahtzee's voice and it left me laughing really really hard and very confused in weird ways..............

OT: some people can't enjoy anything other than the suffering of others and so they seek to ruing anything and everythign that they see others enjoy, especially if there are previousl yexisting complaints of that topic they can use as ammo to start things off with. porn, drugs, violence, sex in general, basically anything that soem religious jackass has said is bad at any point in history will always the favorite topics of hate for these particular people and are, therefore, not worth listening to. one of the hardest, if not THE hardest, things to learn in life is "who can you truly truly trust", so talk to many people and try to build up your ability to accurately determine "is this person a friend or a possible future murder victim for when i finally go mad".
 

Toy Master Typhus

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This infuriates me.

peruvianskys said:
I'm not equating them - I'm saying that women who work in pornography do have a higher than average chance of being sexually abused as children, in sexually abusive relationships, addicting to drugs, or other shitty things that shatter the whole "friendly happy porn" image that you seem to have bought into.
Sources? That is a very anecdotal thing to say. The porn industry isn't the way it was in the 50's where it was strictly rape videos. It today is in a cleaner, safer environment that is regulated. You are thinking of prostitutes and the symptoms of its criminalization.

peruvianskys said:
Well that's your fault for assuming - I have no interest in laws that make a woman's body "dirty" or "shameful." I have an interest in social movements that give young women better options than degradation on camera.
I bet you're a kind of person who has a problem with choice as well; because whether or not you enjoy porn people still have the option to join it. Cam girls have money thrown at them because they have no problem taking their pants off and people seeing. More over you completely erase the idea that perhaps woman watch porn as well. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2355510/Shock-Sun-sex-survey-reveals-66-of-women-watch-porn.html .

peruvianskys said:
I'm saying that the industry relies on and encourages misogyny, and that without patriarchy and sexism, the porn industry as we know it could not possibly exist.
No, industry starts when there is a demand for it, we are creatures of base needs and sex is a motivator that constantly sells. It doesn't exist because there is a patriarchy in the industry there appears to be a patriarchy because most people who watch porn fantasize about power. Is it wrong to want power? Also it isn't strickly geared towards men, as there is porn that is made with women in mine. People have a right to enjoy what they want so long as it doesn't endanger or infringe upon the well being or right of others here in the first world.


peruvianskys said:
I hardly think that a young woman being paid to let strangers fuck her for the entertainment of strangers is edifying or healthy for most people. And if you disagree then I suggest you do some research on how "into it" most porn performers are. It's not all Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy - today's it's equally likely to be Olga the poor Hungarian woman and a man dangling money in front of her, or Claire, the sexually insecure teenager seeking male approval.
peruvianskys said:
It doesn't matter anyway - just because a woman consents to doing something doesn't mean that such an action has to be a positive thing for women. Phyllis Schafly argues against abortion rights and Ann Coulter doesn't think women should vote. Is it wrong for me to say that such things are negatives for women too?
Again but that is the thing about choice, even if it has an effect that you believe is wrong is it still not her right to do it. More over how is it negative? Because it shatters the illusion that all men care about inner beauty? There are men who care only about appearances but in the end it is the choice whether or not to appeal to their liking.

peruvianskys said:
Again, back to the minstrel shows. Just because one person is okay with doing something that negatively influences cultural attitudes towards the group the belong to, suddenly that action is beyond reproach? As a Jew, if I joined the Nazi party, would it be anti-Semitic to say that I did something shitty?
No because people would question whether or not you were really with them because you don't share the same ideals if you are saying that joining them was a bad idea. That is a really bad example because it in no way equates to what you are saying. and again this goes into the fact that even if it does negatively effect other people, she still has the choice to do it.

peruvianskys said:
You've missed the part where I say that pornography, as a concept and as an industry, encourages negative views of women and women's sexuality that feed directly into the larger culture of rape and misogyny. This isn't about individual women or attacking performers for doing anything; it's about taking to task the men, and yes, it is largely men by far, who make money off selling stereotypes and shitty, fucked-up messages to sexist men.
No it doesn't. I think you are still stuck on this horribly delusional idea that any(man) who wants sex is sexist or any man who likes or has a fetish for submissive, shy or demear girls are sexist. Let me ask you by that logic do you think gay men are sexist? Are women who want sex sexist or are they unable to be sexist because them wanting sex is control of their body?
 

peruvianskys

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Toy Master Typhus said:
Sources? That is a very anecdotal thing to say. The porn industry isn't the way it was in the 50's where it was strictly rape videos. It today is in a cleaner, safer environment that is regulated. You are thinking of prostitutes and the symptoms of its criminalization.
The issues I'm talking about have nothing to do with the status of pornography as legal or illegal. And as for sources, just listen to a large percentage of the porn performers who are no longer getting paid to present a facade of cleanliness and responsibility.


I bet you're a kind of person who has a problem with choice as well; because whether or not you enjoy porn people still have the option to join it. Cam girls have money thrown at them because they have no problem taking their pants off and people seeing. More over you completely erase the idea that perhaps woman watch porn as well. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2355510/Shock-Sun-sex-survey-reveals-66-of-women-watch-porn.html .
I don't fucking care about women - I'm talking about the effect porn has on men and on the larger male culture.

No, industry starts when there is a demand for it, we are creatures of base needs and sex is a motivator that constantly sells. It doesn't exist because there is a patriarchy in the industry there appears to be a patriarchy because most people who watch porn fantasize about power. Is it wrong to want power? Also it isn't strickly geared towards men, as there is porn that is made with women in mine. People have a right to enjoy what they want so long as it doesn't endanger or infringe upon the well being or right of others here in the first world.
And while they do have the right to enjoy it, I'm arguing that it isn't harmless or free from destructive capabilities.


Again but that is the thing about choice, even if it has an effect that you believe is wrong is it still not her right to do it. More over how is it negative? Because it shatters the illusion that all men care about inner beauty? There are men who care only about appearances but in the end it is the choice whether or not to appeal to their liking.
It's negative because it sends a cultural message that women exist to be bought and sold for male sexual pleasure. And stop telling me it's a choice, obviously it is. Where did I say I wanted to make porn illegal?


No because people would question whether or not you were really with them because you don't share the same ideals if you are saying that joining them was a bad idea. That is a really bad example because it in no way equates to what you are saying. and again this goes into the fact that even if it does negatively effect other people, she still has the choice to do it.
You aren't even being coherent now.

No it doesn't. I think you are still stuck on this horribly delusional idea that any(man) who wants sex is sexist or any man who likes or has a fetish for submissive, shy or demear girls are sexist. Let me ask you by that logic do you think gay men are sexist? Are women who want sex sexist or are they unable to be sexist because them wanting sex is control of their body?
I'm a man and I enjoy sex. I enjoy mutually satisfactory, consensual, and respectful sex, which is the kind you will never ever come across in pornography.

MeChaNiZ3D said:
Could someone please TELL me what the 'actual definition' of sexist is? Because honestly I haven't seen one yet, and the OP seems to know what it is.

I don't think porn is sexist.

Oh no he didn't!

Really, while it portrays females often as subservient and idealised physically and whatnot, porn does not make any pretence that this is normal. They're ridiculous scenarios, and I don't buy that humans would ever interact in that way. In games, I have an issue with realistic games that portray females in a way that conflicts with real life, because that implies that whoever made the game thought the portrayal was realistic. Fighting games though, which are pretty much the most reliable source of idealised females in games, do not say or even imply that it's commonplace. The game's universe is ridiculous and so their females can be however they want, it has not bearing on real life. Lastly, games that have a semi-realistic universe (Gears of War, for example) vary, but generally are based on human society, and thus are still sexist for having unfair portrayals of females if they conflict with the rest of the game's universe.

tl;dr porn is not trying to be anything like real life, and thus can idealise every woman and have them act however it likes because it is not reflecting reality.

So there you go. Have at.
Except people can and do take porn seriously - to deny that pornography has influenced our sexual mores is ridiculous. You act like every single human being cordons off porn as this fantasy but that's not true.
 

Smooth Operator

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It is as sexist as any target product, say jeans for men/women... sexist! How dare you take our body types into consideration!

But they exist because people desire them same as in porn, 95% of video porn is made for straight men because that is the market demand, and 50 Shades of Gray sells like crazy with women because that is also the demand.