Is porn sexist? Yes, but so what?

[Dogstile]

There is porn for ... asexuals

So... peopel not actually having sex? Because unless the whole point of asexulity is that you aren't interested in sex. I'm sorry, but I don't understand how asexual porn would exist.

Do you ever get a craving for something? Like, say a donut. Now, most people would crave that donut. Asexuals, in this case, would not. They may like the donut. They might even eat a donut from time to time, but they don't really have a craving for that donut.

That's basically what being an asexual is like in really simple terms. In even simpler terms, just because i'm not interested in sex, doesn't mean I won't have it every now and then.

... Oh to hell with it, just read this. http://queereka.com/2012/04/10/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-asexual-people-part-one/

OP: Porn isn't inherently sexist. Most porn is aimed at dudes, yes. But is marketing towards your audience sexist? If so, wouldn't that make lesbian porn sexist? Porn covers so many genres you can't just point at it and go "look, porn is sexist" without getting dragged into a massive debate over every single genre.

Trust me, you don't want to go there.

 

[Kargathia]

I like how legal porn is sometimes called out on being degrading to women when said women are consenting adults who made their choice to get plowed on film so I don't really see where the argument is coming from. Nobody is forcing the women or men to fuck on camera.

That said, there is a lot of forced pornography in third world countries that should really be stopped. Sex trade and what have you

Do keep in mind that "starve, or get fucked on camera" also falls under "consenting adult". It's like prostitution: most people don't choose it as career path: they end up in it.

That said I'd like to note that porn probably is one of the most commendably neutral forms of entertainment out there. Enough people are into furry armadillo's making out with triple amputees? They'll make porn of it - like they care about role models, censorship, or what have you.

If porn is sexist (and I certainly would think so), that tells us nothing more than that the private fap fantasies of its customers are sexist.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Here, have some asexual pron everyone...
Because someone asked:

 

[Deathlyphil]

-snip-
I don't fucking care about women - I'm talking about the effect porn has on men and on the larger male culture.
-snip

I think your problem lies in this statement.

OT: I view porn in the same way as any other media. It is fantasy, wish fulfilment. As long as you understand that, then the content doesn't matter. How you, personally, react to porn is far more telling that what is being watched.

***Edit

Remember that the Industry is not the Product. For example, the Games Industry employs some very shady, barely-legal practices, but we all still play the games that come...

 

[Smeatza]

There's simply too many types of pornography to classify all of them as "sexist", doing so is incredibly naïve and shows your lack of logic.

This

Porn is not inherently sexist.

 

[peruvianskys]

Honest question: how does porn (negatively) affect 'larger male culture'? Could you give some clear definitions and/or description of this process? At this point I get the impression you're playing a normative language game, if not committing a clear is-ought fallacy where porn is bad because it is bad.

I stated my opinions in an earlier post but let me recap:

Pornography reinforces the idea that women and women's bodies exist for male pleasure; it expresses openly a larger cultural emphasis on male pleasure and frames female pleasure as reactive and derivative of male pleasure; and it presents a situation where women happen to love exactly whatever men do - what they do, of course, usually involves things that the vast majority of women actively dislike.

Pornography mirrors the rape culture. Now, that doesn't mean that porn is going to turn a strapping young lad into a slobbering monster. But most rapists are not slobbering monsters. They're just men who have been raised to think that violence, control, aggression, and emotional deadness are the appropriate masculine traits - they're men who have been taught that a woman's body is owed to them and that it exists for their pleasure and not for her agency. Those concepts, the glamorization of domination and subjugation, the underlying assumption of constant female consent, and the idealization of women as beings existing for fucking, are all blatantly celebrated in pornography.

This, again, doesn't mean that rape is CAUSED by porn. But you also have to admit the obvious, which is that there are certainly different degrees between strapping young lad and slobbering rapist. For every person who rapes, there are ten men who will hear about it and say, "Well, it's a compliment!" or "She was begging for it the way she acted." And before you say anything, yes, those are things that I both hear very often. Pornography legitimizes and sanctions the kind of callous, aggressive, control-oriented, woman-as-thing-to-be-fucked conceptualization of masculinity that inspires, allows, and gives cover to the rape culture.

And in the end, no matter what it does, I think men are going to relate to women, whether professionally, personally, or sexually, if they don't go home from those interactions and watch two men vaginally and anally penetrate a 19 year-old, whom they call various abusive names, before ejaculating on her face and in her mouth. And if I'm somehow crazy for believing that such depictions of women are not completely benign, for being skeptical that a man can watch a woman be brutalized, choked, slapped, verbally harassed, and sexually exploited, then I'm sorry, but call me crazy.


I'll end with a quote from a very great writer, Robert Jensen.

"What does it say about our society?s conception of sexuality and masculinity that large numbers of men can find pleasure in watching a young woman gag while a penis is pushed into her throat followed by six men ejaculating on her face and in her mouth?"

I don't think it says anything good at all.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Part of what you don't understand is that it's not PORN that's sexist (meaning the video which you seem to enjoy). It's the INDUSTRY itself. I don't know what side of the issue you may fall on in that regard, so I won't argue. But in reality, that's what people have a problem with. And it's on both sides of the fence.

This right here. Well said.

Porn itself is not inherently sexist - but the western (ie US and Europe) porn industry is very sexist. Almost all porn is made for men - mostly straight men, with a strong niche market for gay men.

One thing I will give the Japanese porn industry - while their porn for men is on occasion terrifying in it's wrongness, Japan also has a booming porn industry for Women. Not many porn industries cater to both men and women, but Yaoi (while not my cup of tea) is porn made for women and bought by women. Lots of women.

So it is possible for the porn industry to be fair and equal to both sexes. It just isn't in most places.

 

[Icehearted]

Wow, another one of these. Okay, um, porn is not sexist. Male and female sex drives, genitals, what have you, they're not the same. To claim it's wrong for heterosexual men to be turned on by something heterosexual women do not find arousing is moronic. Also it's a thing meant for a targeted demographic.

Funny thing is most women I know enjoy porn more than most men I know, though most of what they're into isn't the shit you find on the internet with slapping and choking and things like that. Any jackass with a camera on his phone and an internet connection can make "porn" these days, but that's like calling most of what youtube has on it "cinema".

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men.

I could say as much about cosmetics, clothing, music, movies, television (just watch Fox news for a day), most service jobs where women specifically gravitate to for employment, periodicals, even food.

Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with.

No really, have you ever seen a music video including those starring female singers?

It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work.

Actually you have that backward, as it's not exactly uncommon knowledge that women are more likely to perpetrate violence against men (both physical and sexual abuse). Also, in most mainstream media depictions violence, including sexual violence, against men are broadly more predominant. When was the last time you saw a women being forcefully penetrated by men for comedy? When was the last time you saw a guy taking a painful shot to the balls for comedy?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Yes, gay pornography is so exploitative and degrading to women.

You'd be right if feminism did unequivocally say that ALL porn was sexist. But that's just a strawman people on this forum are using to misrepresent feminism.

That's Second Wave feminism. Please don't equate all feminists with them.

If you actually looked up feminist-friendly porn, you would probably find that it involves safe sex with all people involved wearing protection (and not just a condom), performers who embrace their role and are not forced into it because of economic circumstances, and a concern for content that involves all parties feeling pleasure and having a good time.

Another type of porn that Third Wave feminists like myself approve of (and, in some cases, are fans of) are porn projects created BY female porn stars.

One thing about the internet - it has allows many women to become wealthy and powerful in a previously male dominated porn industry. Why should a female actress let some producer or director take her profits when she can start her own website? Direct her own films? THAT is feminist porn - women making money for themselves and screw (pun intended) the middle man.

Also, I find it odd that "safe sex with a condom" was on your list of requirements. The pill is typically safer, more effective, etc - and anyway most professional porn actors/actresses are constantly being tested for STDs to make sure that no one gets sick. So long as everything is consensual, informed (ie, the woman isn't 'surprised' by the lack of a condom), and all parties are enjoying themselves, it is all good as far as Third Wave feminists are concerned (in general - I can't speak for every one of us, but I can speak in general based on our principles).

 

[corvuscorrax]

The only sexist problem I see with porn is that women get paid more for it than men.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Well... To be fair... Women are the ones in charge in mainstream porn. Underground, grainy camera porn isn't cool anyway.

If you check out Lois Theroux's Weird Weekend, he takes a look at the porn industry in one episode. Very interesting. Other episodes are better but racism and wrestling isn't applicable here.

Women are idolized in that business. So... Sexist? I don't think so. But this subject is a huge, vague... blob of a thing. A whole bunch of female porn stars have their own production companies, they direct, etc. From what I can tell, mainstream porn is one of the most progressive industries going. Obviously, it has flaws.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Now, for some reason, there always seems to be that question circulating (especially among the more vocal, for lack of a better word, antisexual - or just right-wing - people) around: is porn sexist? To be honest, I think that's a stupid question. If we're deconstructing the actual definition of "sexist", then yes, porn is sexist. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's the fucking point.

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

What else would men masturbate to? That?s exactly what I?m talking about: it?s not made to be thought about. It?s made for you to whack off to. It's just a source of entertainment, no more harmful than the '80s violent action films that made stars out of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bruce Willis. I could say a similar thing about them promoting violence to young men, existing to do nothing more than titillate their fantasies of wreaking violence on their peers, especially those that had bullied them, and subsequently sending the message than violence and using your fists to solve any problem is okay, because you'll be seen by all as a hero by the end of it anyway.

See, it works both ways. But if you seriously believe that "PORN IS A BAD THING, CENSOR ALL TEH PORN TO PROTECT OUR KIDDIES", then I don't have much to say to you either, because you don't know much about porn or sexuality in general, for that matter. I mean, you act as if these women didn?t, you know, agree to be filmed being ?degraded by men? in the first place. Don?t give me that ?internalized misogyny? crap, because there?s only a minority of men that actually have some kind of strong desire to abuse women and treat them as sex objects in real-life. Do you listen to yourself speak (or type)?

I also like how you seem to leave out the fact that, while porn is primarily aimed at men, ?man fucks woman? isn?t the only type of porn there is. It?s just the prevalent mainstream one. That shows more of your ignorance to the world of sex and porn. I mean, you know a lot of men actually like dominant women, with many preferring them to the submissive li?l darlings that were all the rage in the 1950s?

You?re basically prejudicing all those men who indulge in these fantasies as being a bunch of woman-haters, subconsciously or not. I?m sorry, but that?s bullshit, and you?re just jumping to conclusions without any actual research on the subject. ?Illegitimate?? Do you really have any authority to class anyone?s fantasies as ?illegitimate?? Have you ever actually talked to any of these men?

So, to conclude, your argument is similar to the ?video games cause violence? one, which is based on zero factual evidence or studies made to support this argument. This is all from your own prejudices about gender, so if anything, you?re the sexist/misogynistic one, not me, since you apparently completely ignore what the woman in question has to say about this.

In the porn "industry", women pretty much control it. So it cannot be sexist IMO if the people being "victimized" actually run the damn thing.

The women in porn get paid up to 10x as much as the men do, stay in the industry longer, and if you asked any of them, they'd likely tell you they LOVE what they do.

They set their own rules as well, they don't like anal? Don't have to do it. Don't wanna do scenes with any men? Don't have to. Don't like gang bangs? You get where this is going.

Ask Jenna Haze. She is a huge name in the industry (and really really hot), she got a boyfriend she was into...straight up stopped doing scenes with men for him. It kinda hurt her career, as she made less money as a result...but she still did it.

Yeah, another good example is Lily Cade, a lesbian porn star and adult film director, who insists on only acting in girl-on-girl films, but still directs guy-on-girl films. She was even nominated for a Feminist Porn Award.

You seriously don't have to look very hard to find girl-on-girl or even guy-on-girl porn that shows the woman clearly enjoying herself rather than just being a passive fuck-toy. I've found more than a few "female-friendly" porn sites myself.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Here is another angle that you might not have considered.

Women use sex to get what they want, you see it all the time in gold diggers ... sexy young women dating or even marrying old rich men. Women use there sexual attractiveness to persuade men to buy them things and treat them like queens.

Women are exploiting men's sexual desires to gain either financially or emotionally, they either get bought things or called "sexy/beautiful" and they like the attention men give them.

What do a lot of girls wear when they go to a club? What do guys usually say to women? "Can I get you a drink?" a guy is buying a woman a drink.

I have to be honest, it sounds like you're posts are ones being degrading and disrespectful to women. You're posts make it sound like women are nothing but mindless beings who can't resist men so they blindly let themselves be abused.

Female porn stars have agreed to be filmed while having sex, they are doing what they want to with there bodies. Nobody has forced them to do anything.

Lemme ask you this, do you think the cases of rape will rise or fall if all forms of porn are removed from the earth? There is no such thing as a low cut top or thong, basically all women are dressed like Islamic women. There are no longer models selling cars and no more cheer leaders.

I think there would a lot more sexually frustrated men, to be honest.

What about female "nympho's", they're going to have a hard time if they can no longer work in porn. They are safer in porn 'cos they're tested so much.

 

[Stu35]

Dunno if this has been pointed out yet, but women earn more than men in the Porn industry. Furthermore women are far more likely to be employed in the porn industry than men.

In short, Yes, porn is sexist - I can't get my career as a porn actor off the ground specifically because of their hiring policies.



...

Oh I'm sorry, am I not supposed to be treating the sex industry like any other job, despite the fact that aside from 'morals' cooked up by a bunch of asexual religious nutcases a few thousand years ago, there's nothing inherently wrong with it?




Disclaimer: The above post is firmly tongue-in-cheek, the first person to actually take the top two paragraphs seriously will be the laughing stock of me.

edit:

Many European countries on the other hand are commendable. Not only do they have legalized industries for "sex workers", many prostitutes and porn stars are given full benefits and labor rights, including things like unions. I've seen documentaries and news reports on brothels that honestly seem upstanding, where the women truly enjoy their work.

This.

Legalised, regulated prostitution, along with a more mature attitude towards pornography is the way forward.

In my opinion.