Is porn sexist? Yes, but so what?

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Big Snip with some interesting, if not disturbing implications

I want you to watch this video.


Now, if you simply asked people straight up 'Is it okay to rape?' I get the distinct feeling you would get about a 99% response of 'No'.

But surveys are seldom so straight forward. How the context questions are built and even the wording of the question (especially when you're 11) can confuse the ultimate aim.

This is not to say there still aren't some people out there with totally the wrong ideas on their sexual partners, but its well known that figures can be massaged, conflated or screwed with to get the result that you want.

 

[peruvianskys]

Now, if you simply asked people straight up 'Is it okay to rape?' I get the distinct feeling you would get about a 99% response of 'No'.

But surveys are seldom so straight forward. How the context questions are built and even the wording of the question (especially when you're 11) can confuse the ultimate aim.

This is not to say there still aren't some people out there with totally the wrong ideas on their sexual partners, but its well known that figures can be massaged, conflated or screwed with to get the result that you want.

But if you took the time to examine the studies, all of which are peer-reviewed or otherwise approved, you would see that they fit to the scientific and statistical rigor expected of all sociological surveys. So unless you are saying that not only do you know more about how to devise a question than the social scientists who put these surveys together, but that the entire methodology of sociology and anthropology is flawed, then you have to accept the fact the these results, which are not unique but standard across literally hundreds of examinations, are valid and reflective of the opinions of those surveyed.

Something tells me that if the numbers reflected what you wanted to believe, you would probably not be consumed with such a sincere concern for academic rigor.

Yes. I'm not claiming the opposite. I am stating that you cannot make that claim, and accept it to be self-evident. It's an epistemological impossibility. It's an assumption on your part, but assumptions do not make universals.

You are hiding behind your philosophical terminology, which is odd because you're wrong about it yourself - you can't even bring forth a universal from a statement which has no universal claim. I said that most women do not enjoy being ejaculated on for money by strangers; that is not a universal, that is simply a fact. Any the epistemic base for that knowledge is reasoned observation of reality.

And homosexual porn is free of any sexism? You are the one who substitutes a particular kind of porn for the entityy. Homosexual porn is part of pornography. Please elaborate how the two relate.

I didn't say it was free of sexism, I just said that I'm not talking about it right now. We are talking about heterosexual pornography. If it would please you, at least remove your ability to squirrel around the real issue, I'll be happy to add the word "heterosexual" from now on.

Alright. I'm interested in reading your explanation of how universal rape culture relates to consumption of porn and the myriad of different cultures throughout the world.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? I have stated many times that the rape culture and pornography are entities that reinforce and mirror each other. Not once have I said that pornography is the cause of rape; in fact, I have gone out of my way to say otherwise many times.

South Africa, for example, has a relatively low internet penetration (sorry for the "gendered" term, but that's what Wikipedia uses) and thus little access to the abundance of porn on the internet. It's a country in which 35% lives below the poverty line and 25% is unemployed (which means few financial resources to aquire the pornographic material you describe), and still has one of the highest levels of sexual violence in the world. Clearly, this is a culture that's not saturated with pornography, yet people still rape one another. Explain the dissonance between your (implicit) hypothesis and this case.

Unless you could show that South Africans had an overwhelmingly negative view of porn, or somehow did not support it, then all you've pointed out is that people can be shitty without having the means to embed their shittiness in the larger media landscape. Good job?

Influence? Probably. "Destructive"? That's a normative term based on your own mental model. Your argument rests on many assumptions which are not necessarily true nor real. Your own observations are only a single representation of reality, not reality itself.

It's a term based on my model of healthy versus unhealthy sexual politics, one which I think is supported by research in the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, and biology.

What's feminist porn? Some girls anally pegging guys? Because that's also a thing, and I wouldn't necessarily call it feminist. Again you miss the point that you find it degrading, but that it isn't necessarily degrading at all. Those women were paid for their services.

You aren't even trying anymore, sir. You again just avoid the fact that I did not say, and have many times made clear I do not believe, that all porn is necessarily degrading TO THE WOMAN INVOLVED. I'm talking about the effects of pornography on men and the wider effect its consumption has on sexual politics and the rape culture.

Normative statement, not a fact. First of all 'a culture' is too vague. Second, assuming you refer to the western world:

The burden of proof is on you to show me how we as a culture can enjoy sexually objectifying women while still maintaining a respect for them. I believe that a clear study of sociology, psychology, and biology will show that my position, i.e. that you can't, is the one based most clearly in actual research as well as common sense and parsimony. Ball is in your court.

The amount, variety and availability of porn have increased immensily the past two decades. During that period, more and more women have risen to high cultural, economical and political positions. Men are completely incapable, according to you, of respecting women; yet women are becoming more and more influential.

Your surface-level, reductionist thinking is getting absurd. I never said that men were "completely incapable" of respecting women. I said that the culture of masculinity in this nation and around the world rests on the sexual and personal submission of women to men's interest.

Again a dissonance between your sweeping hypothesis and an occurence in the real world. How and why?

Unless I stated the absurd hypothesis that porn means women will never achieve anything ever, then I'm not sure what you think you've accomplished by pointing this out.

But for the record, how do you explain the pay gap, CEO gender gap, education gap, and other discrepancies between men and women in today's culture?

Yes.

Then you have an ability to analyze and dissect culture on par with a rodent.

It says nothing of "our culture", or even "culture" in general. It might say something of human nature, since humans have enjoyed violence, sex and (implicit) powerrelations since the dawn of time.

First off, anthropology would disagree with you, and second of all, "human nature" has nothing to say of right and wrong. Humans have also raped since the dawn of time; if I wanted to venture into your realm of half-hearted correlations, I could ask if you think rape is okay because of it.

Porn exists because people like to watch and/or to have sex. There's a difference.

That is not true. I like to watch and have sex. I hate pornography.

I can enjoy watching two women suck a guy off while he does not return any sexual favours, eventually ejaculating on their faces while they kiss and caress one another.

Here, have a medal.

 

[Falseprophet]

Here, have some asexual pron everyone...
Because someone asked:

Spoiler: video

I didn't need another reason to love James Gunn, but you just gave me one. Thanks!

 

[AnarchistFish]

Porn isn't particularly sexist but it does give a bad impression of sex, which can leak into what someone does in real life. That, in itself, is a bad thing

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Here, have some asexual pron everyone...
Because someone asked:

Spoiler: video

I didn't need another reason to love James Gunn, but you just gave me one. Thanks!

I actually bought the SUPER special edition, which came with the complete PG porn collection.
The guy is awesome.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Now, for some reason, there always seems to be that question circulating (especially among the more vocal, for lack of a better word, antisexual - or just right-wing - people) around: is porn sexist? To be honest, I think that's a stupid question. If we're deconstructing the actual definition of "sexist", then yes, porn is sexist. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's the fucking point.

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

You ARE aware that gay porn exists right? Are those guys also being as exploited in the same manner as the women? What about porn where women are taking the more dominating position in things?

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Either way, "masturbating to the thought of sex with another human being" is just what porn is, only taken out of your brain and plonked onto the screen.

No, it isn't. It's masturbating to an object, to one or two holes that are attached to a body. There's a huge difference. Healthy, positive sex views the partner as a human being to relate with, not a piece of meat to use in a utilitarian fashion.

Unless you're mentally retarded, I think you can still tell that a woman being fucked is still a person. Otherwise, they wouldn't be moaning.

More seriously, yeah, if you're going to go down that line of logic, it's technically "an object with no other purpose than for you to receive gratification", but again...what's the problem with that? We don't have to think about entertainment all the damn time, because then it gets boring. Similarly, how is turning off your brain to Crank so you can enjoy an hour and a half of ridiculous comedy and over-the-top violence possibly contributing to violent crime in the modern age? Same difference.

And you don't think some people aren't going to just fantasize about rape without the material available online anyway? Furthermore, since Rule 34 is a thing, "mainstream porn" is almost a meaningless phrase nowadays. It's not hard to find what you want with a quick Google search that takes less than a minute.

A lot of people jerk off to thoughts of raping children, but it's still bad to make child porn.

Oh please, don't give me that crap, those are two completely different things. And, for the record, I'd much rather paedophiles tug themselves off to lolicon/shotacon, where there are no real children harmed, than child porn, which is illegal for a very obvious reason.

The way you're talking sounds to me as if you think porn is just this sea of violent choke and bukkake trash videos with angry men constantly hurling insults at crying women while jackhammering the holes of their cold shells, when that's not the case. Like, at all.

Not all porn is like that. However, pornography apologists are consistently understating the amount of material out there that does fit this mold; I'm trying to show the other side.

Hmm. And I still disagree that that kind of porn contributes to any kind of violent misogynism within sane and healthy men today.

And I disagree with your notions of a "rape culture". It sounds just as stupid as the "gay lifestyle". Basically, unfounded assumptions with no physical evidence to support them. There isn't a "rape culture"; just a minority of macho dickheads who see any woman in a miniskirt as automatic, unconditional fuck-buddies.

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

In a survey of 11 to 14 year-olds, 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience.

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

In a survey of college students, 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it.

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.

43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

Sources:

1. Dupre, A.R., Hampton, H.L., Morrison, H., and Meeks, G.R. Sexual Assault. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey. 1993;48:640-648.

2. National Crime Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16

3. National Victim Center, and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16.

4. Koss M.P., Hidden rape: sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of students in higher education. In: Burgess A.W., ed Rape and Sexual Assault. New York, NY: Garland Publishing: 1988;2:3-25.

5. White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

6. Koss M.P., Dinero, T.E., Seibel, C.A. Stranger and acquaintance rape: Are there differences in the victim's experience? Psychology of Women Quarterly. 1988:12:1-24.

7. Malamuth N.M. Rape proclivity among males. J Soc Issues. 1981;37:138-157.

Response?

Give me links for those sources, and I'm still doubtful of them. Questions can be vague, answers can be fabricated and exaggerated, etc.

Furthermore, those surveys are from the 80s and 90s. Things have changed a lot in two decades, so link me to some more recent surveys and then we'll talk.

And you still haven't answered my question on what you think about BDSM.

 

[Dags90]

You ARE aware that gay porn exists right? Are those guys also being as exploited in the same manner as the women? What about porn where women are taking the more dominating position in things?

Mainstream gay porn isn't hugely different from mainstream hetero porn, hasn't been for years. It does present the men/boys largely as body parts and is fairly mechanical. It might sound silly to say, but mainstream gay porn can be very heteronormative at times. It falls into a lot of the awful racial/age/masculinity stereotyping and tropes of straight porn.

You'd be hard pressed to find a scene where a big black dude takes it up the bum from a skinny white boy. Flip it around and you'll find a fair amount of "black on blondes" style porn where the woman is largely just replaced with a teenage/early 20's guy (a twink).

It's not entirely this way, but there are clear influences from mainstream heterosexual porn (and vice versa).

 

[TheAdam]

[http://imgur.com/vnS6P]

On a side note, who else would have loved to be on that ship? Must have been an amazing sight. Everytime I see that image I feel like I missed out on something.

I don't care about this porn question, I want to talk about that boat. In all seriousness though, porn isn't sexist, women enjoy as much as men, men just might in larger quantities.
/thread

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Something tells me that if the numbers reflected what you wanted to believe, you would probably not be consumed with such a sincere concern for academic rigor.

If I was printing figures who's gist was '60% of 11-14 year olds think rape is a-okay', then I'd want to be as fucking sure as possible my figures weren't being slanted.

The reason I look at those figures you presented and my inner alarms start ringing 'Bullshit' or 'Deception Ahoy' is because I cannot fathom how anyone can justify the violation of another human being based on money, time spent together or the whims of idiocy and if they are accurate then there has been a failure of epic proportions across society as a whole.

 

[bluepilot]

I feel conflicted about porn. On one hand, women are depicted as objects only suitable for a good pounding. On the other hand, as a woman, don't I need a good pounding every now and again.

It is possible for me to be a smart career woman, with three gender-neutral kids who were breast-fed for 6 months each, to come home from the office everyday to a husband who will help me cook the dinner, wash the dishes, read the kids a bed time story while a pour myself a glass of wine, and then tear of my underwear with his teeth?

 

[Schadrach]

But if you took the time to examine the studies, all of which are peer-reviewed or otherwise approved, you would see that they fit to the scientific and statistical rigor expected of all sociological surveys. So unless you are saying that not only do you know more about how to devise a question than the social scientists who put these surveys together, but that the entire methodology of sociology and anthropology is flawed, then you have to accept the fact the these results, which are not unique but standard across literally hundreds of examinations, are valid and reflective of the opinions of those surveyed.

The specific choice of survey questions is well known to influence the outcome of the survey. That's why studies of the same phenomenon in social sciences can have wildly different results while still being an "unbiased" methodology. Especially if the goal is to reaffirm an existing entrenched position.

Unless you could show that South Africans had an overwhelmingly negative view of porn, or somehow did not support it, then all you've pointed out is that people can be shitty without having the means to embed their shittiness in the larger media landscape. Good job?

Umm, no. The point was to note that in a culture with less pornography there's even more rape going on, which kind of shits all over "pornography correlates to rape" view. Likewise, the explosion in availability of pornography in the past two decades or so should logically correspond to a likewise explosion in rape and sexual assault. However, that really doesn't seem to be the case.

You aren't even trying anymore, sir. You again just avoid the fact that I did not say, and have many times made clear I do not believe, that all porn is necessarily degrading TO THE WOMAN INVOLVED. I'm talking about the effects of pornography on men and the wider effect its consumption has on sexual politics and the rape culture.

The problem you're hitting is that that entire argument (as well as the concept of "rape culture" in the first place) is going to be astoundingly hard to sell to this audience because it more or less mirrors the Jack Thompson argument, only with rape specifically replacing violence generally, and in your specific case "pornography" replacing "video games."

The burden of proof is on you to show me how we as a culture can enjoy sexually objectifying women while still maintaining a respect for them. I believe that a clear study of sociology, psychology, and biology will show that my position, i.e. that you can't, is the one based most clearly in actual research as well as common sense and parsimony. Ball is in your court.

Doesn't the ever increasing number of women in positions of power, authority, or acclaim over the same period as the rapid explosion of pornography due to the internet fly in the face of your position? Of course, I'd argue that women sexually objectify men to, at least the straight ones. So do women at large not respect men either?

But for the record, how do you explain the pay gap, CEO gender gap, education gap, and other discrepancies between men and women in today's culture?

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf has some interesting things to say about the pay gap (in short that there are a *lot* of confounding factors that make "median total pay of all FTYR women / median total pay of all FTYR men" an astoundingly meaningless number, and that as you start accounting for factors other than simple discrimination the presumed gap gets smaller and smaller -- it suggests a maximum effect due to discrimination of 5-7% wage differential, that being difference not accounted for by factors they had measured, though estimates for some known factors they didn't include exist those estimates are not sufficiently separated from either each other or other known confounding variables to give a good measure [that is to say that you can't just apply those estimates because you'd be double counting parts of the effect without a good way of knowing how much of the effect is being double counted]).

As for the CEO gap, I don't have a good explanation, though I find it interesting that it's one of those things that gets focused on so heavily in feminist discourses. Specifically, the male slanted imbalance at the very top is something that time and again is somehow of the utmost importance, yet the similar imbalance at the bottom isn't (most of the dirty, dangerous, unpleasant shit jobs are held by men as well). As someone I know once said to me "you never see the feminists trying to put more women down in the mines, funny that."

As for the education gap, in the US women are outperforming men in every level of the educational system. The only real exception is the subset of college fields referred to as STEM (for Science Technology Engineering Math) fields, which remain male slanted and which there's been a push to demand "Title IX solutions" for. Interestingly, you don't see a push to improve boy's educational outcomes at every other level and area of education, except by a subset of MRAs. Women get a majority of college dergees, and also receive preferential options for financial aid (and do so without any strings attached -- student aid is one of the areas that is dependent on being registered for Selective Service for men).

Porn exists because people like to watch and/or to have sex. There's a difference.

That is not true. I like to watch and have sex. I hate pornography.

I don't think he said that all individuals that like sex like pornography, but rather that pornography exists because there's a market for it, formed of people that, well, like to watch people having sex.

 

[peruvianskys]

If I was printing figures who's gist was '60% of 11-14 year olds think rape is a-okay', then I'd want to be as fucking sure as possible my figures weren't being slanted.

The reason I look at those figures you presented and my inner alarms start ringing 'Bullshit' or 'Deception Ahoy' is because I cannot fathom how anyone can justify the violation of another human being based on money, time spent together or the whims of idiocy and if they are accurate then there has been a failure of epic proportions across society as a whole.

Then I'd encourage you to examine the studies; you'll find them to be accurate and scientifically rigorous - and yes, you will find them pointing to a failure of epic proportions across society as a whole.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I feel conflicted about porn. On one hand, women are depicted as objects only suitable for a good pounding. On the other hand, as a woman, don't I need a good pounding every now and again.

It is possible for me to be a smart career woman, with three gender-neutral kids who were breast-fed for 6 months each, to come home from the office everyday to a husband who will help me cook the dinner, wash the dishes, read the kids a bed time story while a pour myself a glass of wine, and then tear of my underwear with his teeth?

Your husband sounds like a champ

 

[bluepilot]

I feel conflicted about porn. On one hand, women are depicted as objects only suitable for a good pounding. On the other hand, as a woman, don't I need a good pounding every now and again.

It is possible for me to be a smart career woman, with three gender-neutral kids who were breast-fed for 6 months each, to come home from the office everyday to a husband who will help me cook the dinner, wash the dishes, read the kids a bed time story while a pour myself a glass of wine, and then tear of my underwear with his teeth?

Your husband sounds like a champ

I wish, men like that are about as elusive as a 13 inch ding dong

 

[Evil Smurf]

yes, women are payed more then men.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

You ARE aware that gay porn exists right? Are those guys also being as exploited in the same manner as the women? What about porn where women are taking the more dominating position in things?

Mainstream gay porn isn't hugely different from mainstream hetero porn, hasn't been for years. It does present the men/boys largely as body parts and is fairly mechanical. It might sound silly to say, but mainstream gay porn can be very heteronormative at times. It falls into a lot of the awful racial/age/masculinity stereotyping and tropes of straight porn.

You'd be hard pressed to find a scene where a big black dude takes it up the bum from a skinny white boy. Flip it around and you'll find a fair amount of "black on blondes" style porn where the woman is largely just replaced with a teenage/early 20's guy (a twink).

It's not entirely this way, but there are clear influences from mainstream heterosexual porn (and vice versa).

Yeah, I agree. It's probably because gay porn, as well as the majority of porn, is, obviously, aimed at men. I recently watched a gay striptease porn video where, if you were to compare it side-by-side with a straight striptease porn video, you'd barely see the difference. Aside from, obviously, the former having a man and the latter having a woman. But you know what I mean. It mostly drew from the same pools of sexual arousal.

@peruvianskys: My last response to you is: pornography is a pretty fucking massive market. It's called "supply and demand". Now, are you telling me all, or even just the majority of people who watch porn, are misogynists who see all women (except, maybe, their female relatives or those with whom they have a similar relationship - unless they're into that - and women they deem unattractive) as nothing more than passive fuck-toys whose opinions and desires in life have lesser significance than their own?

OK, how many rape fantasy videos have you seen where the woman who's being forcibly violated actually ends up enjoying it just as much, if not moreso, than the man? Maybe that's a completely inaccurate portrayal of actual rape, but it doesn't have to be accurate, because the clue's in the name: fantasy. I don't know why this isn't getting through to you, but it's designed with the singular and specific purpose of getting you off, and no-one (unless they're a paedophile or something) should feel guilty about that, unless they know it's hurting someone without their consent.

*drops microphone, walks off stage*

 

[Olas]

Maybe the question shouldn't be "is porn sexist", but "is it a problem how porn depicts people" and the answer is most definitely "sometimes".

SNIP-a-Dee-Doo-Dah, Snip-a-Dee-Day

I wish, men like that are about as elusive as a 13 inch ding dong

Be careful what you wish for.

Spoiler

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Shades of grey(not 50 though,) there is porn that is sexist and porn that isn't and everything in between. And collective guilt is a silly concept. Attack an individual website, video, image. Also I would say most porn is as degrading to men as women with it's weird trying to high-five you through the screen vibe and the meat head 'bros' that appear everywhere in it.

No, it isn't. It's masturbating to an object, to one or two holes that are attached to a body. There's a huge difference. Healthy, positive sex views the partner as a human being to relate with, not a piece of meat to use in a utilitarian fashion.

Which does not make it sexist unless you want to levy the argument that women never masturbate to porn. And if that isn't your argument, then sex even healthy sex does not always have to be about love. It can be about two people mutually using each other for enjoyment. Is that really such a bad thing?

Also we relate to people all the time through a screen. It's why the end of Saving Private Ryan with an old Ryan in a graveyard can make people who have never seen war or known hardship: cry. It's why when a cartoon lion loses his father, in a horrific way we can feel bad about it.

And porn is capable of that as well though it simply conveys different emotions. It's the reason why almost all porn is genre porn. Because we don't just get off on nicely shaped bodies, though they can help, we usually require something more. People like BDSM because it's the idea of trusting someone enough to put yourself under their control. It's not because people find leather straps sexy on their own. Theres a lot more going on than simple 'meat.'

And you don't think some people aren't going to just fantasize about rape without the material available online anyway? Furthermore, since Rule 34 is a thing, "mainstream porn" is almost a meaningless phrase nowadays. It's not hard to find what you want with a quick Google search that takes less than a minute.

A lot of people jerk off to thoughts of raping children, but it's still bad to make child porn.

Rape porn is between consenting adults reenacting something as dictated by rules in a legally binding agreement signed by both parties. Child porn is the abuse of minors unable to give consent legally, emotionally or intellectually. They are not the same at all

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.

The legal definition includes being drunk while having sex as mutual rape. So that does not surprise me at all, and I would hardly call it rape in most cases.