Is this right, or even legal?

[lacktheknack]

Personally, I think the kid is being manipulative (which happens a lot in "messed up kids", make no mistake). I've had to do toilet washing before against my will, and if they give you long gloves, it's not a quarter as bad as it sounds.

If you think a kid being manipulative is bad. The senior staff member who helped with the decision, from my mum's point of view had always been nice to the girls even if they were being right pricks, and punishing the boys for any little thing they do. He also says how pretty the girl's look right to their faces. Lets just say that many people in the school have their concerns.

Anyway, you should see our toilets, there is some persons half eaten lunch laying in the piss filled urinal. Half the time its out of order because the kids in our school block the urinal and the whole room kills with piss and water. So basically, it will not be nice for him.

...

...!

WTF is wrong with your school?!

Seriously, I can't imagine a senor staff member like that and bathrooms in that bad of a condition. This is foreign territory to me.

Umm, reduce it to scrubbing sinks, then. It's not like he was dying of thirst, there was water whether he liked it or not.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Personally, I think the kid is being manipulative (which happens a lot in "messed up kids", make no mistake). I've had to do toilet washing before against my will, and if they give you long gloves, it's not a quarter as bad as it sounds.

If you think a kid being manipulative is bad. The senior staff member who helped with the decision, from my mum's point of view had always been nice to the girls even if they were being right pricks, and punishing the boys for any little thing they do. He also says how pretty the girl's look right to their faces. Lets just say that many people in the school have their concerns.

Anyway, you should see our toilets, there is some persons half eaten lunch laying in the piss filled urinal. Half the time its out of order because the kids in our school block the urinal and the whole room kills with piss and water. So basically, it will not be nice for him.

...

...!

WTF is wrong with your school?!

Seriously, I can't imagine a senor staff member like that and bathrooms in that bad of a condition. This is foreign territory to me.

Yeh, our schools pretty bad. We do have some of the best exam results in the county, but the actual school is a limey shithole where the good teachers have left or been fired, and the bad not caring ones remain. I find it quite funny, the head has made us all wear a new school uniform (blazers replacing a jumper) and he honestly thinks that it will have an impact on our behavior when obviously it wont. The headteacher rewards and praises all the middle class kids, but suspends and gives horrible punishments to hard off kids like the one I spoke about. Honestly, your toilets must of been very well kept and clean, from my experience cleaning our toilets will probably be a sick inducing gross nightmare.

 

[Quigglebert]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

But think of this way, even adults don't have to clean peoples shit if they steal one can of beer. They would do into jail for on or two nights. Bearing im mind that he was crying not because of the punishment, its because he has had one of the worst life's you can have for a first world kid, and this may have just cemented the fact that he thinks he's a worthless kid in this society.

Also, you would never want to give kudos to my headteacher, he is one of the most unsympathetic and all around dickish headteachers ever. He once said that losing a family member is no excuse for slacking off and called all the kids in the school "not good enough for society". He would of just suspended him but he couldn't for some dumb legal reason, so this is what him and one of his staff thought would be a reasonable and good punishment for him.

the child was humiliated for his trangression, an adult has his/her right to freedom stripped, tell me again how this is an unfair punishment

 

[viranimus]

A:But think of this way, even adults don't have to clean peoples shit if they steal one can of beer. They would do into jail for on or two nights. Bearing im mind that he was crying not because of the punishment, its because he has had one of the worst life's you can have for a first world kid,B: and this may have just cemented the fact that he thinks he's a worthless kid in this society.

A: yes you would spend the night in jail and usually what happens during daytime hours in jail? They put you on work detail, slogging though drainage ditches and chore work on public property. So yeah, dependent on where were talking about they DO that, and sometimes worse.

B: Thats exactly my point and intended effect. You need to tell the kid so as they get it through their thick skulls that "if you do stupid shit like this, this is the kind of life your going to end up leading." Either the kid gets that and betters his behavior, or he doesnt.

Let me put it to you like this. Yes it might seem mean to punish a child because, well they are children. But you know whats cruel? Using ineffective techniques that do not properly correct the childs behavior, leaving them to grow up without proper tools of which to participate/contribute to society.

And what happens? You end up with a child who is either going to break/skirt the laws of society or you end up with some useless hipster kid who has no concept of the way the world works and expects everything to be handed to them.

This is corporal punishment, which is not permitted with minors and is a very grey area with adults

Im curious, which dictionary did you read to get corporal punishment is a form of punishment that does not involve inflicting physical pain in order to correct behavior? Because that is the definition of corporal punishment, and there was absolutely nothing (at least from the OPs description) that implies that the punishment handed down was corporal in any form.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The hell? Half the school day for a drink that costs £1?
I wonder how much cleaners get paid for half a days work. More than £1 at any rate.

Giving a kid who has a shit home life a job that is likely to humiliate him in front of all the other kids is just really, really fucking stupid.

A lot of people are saying that a punishment like this is good but it gets a response. But if that had been me as a kid, after getting over the tears, I would have thought about the 'crime.' I would have rationalised stealing the drink and then quickly started to resent the authority figures that were humiliating me.
Teaching a kid like that to hate authority is not a good idea.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

A:But think of this way, even adults don't have to clean peoples shit if they steal one can of beer. They would do into jail for on or two nights. Bearing im mind that he was crying not because of the punishment, its because he has had one of the worst life's you can have for a first world kid,B: and this may have just cemented the fact that he thinks he's a worthless kid in this society.

A: yes you would spend the night in jail and usually what happens during daytime hours in jail? They put you on work detail, slogging though drainage ditches and chore work on public property. So yeah, dependent on where were talking about they DO that, and sometimes worse.

B: Thats exactly my point and intended effect. You need to tell the kid so as they get it through their thick skulls that "if you do stupid shit like this, this is the kind of life your going to end up leading." Either the kid gets that and betters his behavior, or he doesnt.

Let me put it to you like this. Yes it might seem mean to punish a child because, well they are children. But you know whats cruel? Using ineffective techniques that do not properly correct the childs behavior, leaving them to grow up without proper concepts of responsibility, cause and effect and properly participating in the flow of society. And what happens? You end up with a child who is either going to break/skirt the laws of society or you end up with some useless hipster kid who has no concept of the way the world works and expects everything to be handed to them.

This is corporal punishment, which is not permitted with minors and is a very grey area with adults

Im curious, which dictionary did you read to get corporal punishment is a form of punishment that does not involve inflicting physical pain in order to correct behavior? Because that is the definition of corporal punishment, and there was absolutely nothing (at least from the OPs description) that implies that the punishment handed down was corporal in any form.

But, if he somehow caught a flu or some other virus from cleaning our putrid toilets. Then technically its inflicted physical pain in the form of illness.

[EDIT] Also, this kid will not be affected by this. My mum has been working with him for ages now and he seems that after this punishment the only effect will be that he will try harder to not get caught. So, this is basically innefectual too. If you think that the crying thing was him showing that he wont do it again, its not. It was him crying because he has got a crap life, a crap family and now has to do a humiliating job infront of his peers. My point is that this wont make him not do it, but it will affect his mind and thinking of himself and the school.

 

[Trivun]

Well the punishment worked. The child felt punished, and probably learned that what he did was wrong. In that regard, the punishment was fitting, although it may have been a bit excessive, I don't see anything wrong with it. Also, why are the cleaners not cleaning the toilets?

That is, bring back caning and corporal punishment, and National Service.

I don't agree with a teacher hitting a child. A parent hitting their own child is acceptable in my view, but a teacher isn't. Why should teachers get to beat other peoples children? National service I do not see anything wrong with though.

Believe it or not, I do see your point. However, with society the way it is now, parents are too afraid to hit their kids. I was hit as a child, when I desevred it, and I turned out pretty damn well. And that's not bad parenting, my parents were always great to me in normal circumstances, they only hit me when I was being properly naughty (and by 'hit' I mean a slap, not a punch). But because the 'political correctness' crowd have deemed it as being cruel to hit kids, even when naughty, and because we apparently live in a more 'enlightened' time, society deems it unacceptable. That's why I feel that bringing back corporal punishment in places like schools will show people that it's a perfectly valid disciplinary tool, provided it's not used to excess. If teachers can do it, then parents can hardly complain to the government that would in this situation be allowing it to occur, and parents would start to realise the simple fact that a lot of kids today need a good slap, and they shouldn't be afraid to do it if necessary.

That being said, we do live in a society where parents expect the state to raise their kids for them and most crappy parents can't be bothered to discipline their kids anyway, so giving proper discipline at school would also be a bit of a help on that front too...

 

[DaysBefore]

His fault, Should'a just gotten water.

 

[viranimus]

But, if he somehow caught a flu or some other virus from cleaning our putrid toilets. Then technically its inflicted physical pain in the form of illness.

No its not. The hypothetical illness is a byproduct of the punishment. Not the punishment itself. The only way illness could be deemed corporal is if it was directly injected into the child.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

One the one hand, if you're desperate enough to steal then you're desperate enough to drink something you don't particularly like the taste of rather than steal.

On the other, a punishment that harsh over £1 worth of drink? You have got to be kidding me! The schools excuse is the worst part. "Normal punishment's don't work on him"? So-fucking-what! Imagine if the Justice system applied that sort of logic on adults... "This thief has proven time and again that prison does not deter him, so instead we're going to cut his hands off". Yeah, I don't see that one going down well.

I do not think the excuse "he didn't like water" is in any way valid, unless he's got some kind of serious mental aversion to water. However, all this punishment will do to him is reinforce his belief that people will always judge someone in his position more harshly than everyone else no matter what he does. If you believed that, do you think it would motivate you top better yourself?

Edit: Also, I'm not a teacher, but I would think that the time he will spend doing this punishment would have been better spent, oh I don't know, in lessons! I'd say that's the place where he'd most likely learn something constructive.

 

[Saelune]

Its a fucking can of "drink". Know what you do? Tell him not to do it again, and leave it as that. Like seriously? My dad was a Janitor at my middle school. I must have gotten over $50 of free food from generous cafeteria people. The school is apaprently run by shits who are looking to run a prison. People need to be fired.

 

[That One Six]

I'm all for this. Real punishment is better than a slap-on-the-wrist detention any day. And after that, he probably won't be stealing anymore. Schools should teach morals, and the kids with bigger issues probably need more boundaries than those who never cause problems.

 

[Scarim Coral]

While the punishment is extreme but it did get the result. (I mean he won't be stealing again?) Overall however this probably wouldn't help him in the long run.

 

[The SettingSun]

I'm in two minds about this.

If they didn't punish him then the only lesson he'll have learned that when he's desperate stealing is the best option. He needs to be taught that stealing is wrong even when he has no money and is in hard pressed times.

On the other hand this punishment isn't really about the stealing. It's humiliating and if he's turning up crying at the school support room then it's clearly putting him under way too much stress he can deal with right now. Expelling him for stealing a can is way too overboard and shouldn't even be option for this type of kid. Excluding him from school would only make him feel more excluded than he already is.

Ideally the punishment would address the issue, stealing, without putting him under too much stress. The school really need to get this kid involved with class and address the reasons why he is behaving badly. Maybe, get him in detention and have somebody speak to him when he's in detention. It's a tricky one.

To answer your question is it legal? I see no reason why it shouldn't be. It won't do him any harm physically unless he accidentally drinks a bottle of bleach or something.

 

[tjarne]

My mother works in the same school that I go to, so I normally get lots of very private and secret information said to me. She works as a teacher to the more challenging kids, also doing stuff like looking after the ones with very, very bad home lives and basically just helping the worse off students. So today she came out of the school very angry at the head and one of the senior team. Here's what she told me happened.

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons) and he really does not like water (the only free drink we have). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

How old was this kid?

 

[SinisterGehe]

Well... In Finnish laws it would be legal, since the school can order the student to do basically anything in school (long as it is safe and legal) from 8am -16pm long as it is set so that the student can not be punished for being absent from class(es) during that time and it has been ordered by the headmaster.

And some Finnish schools do make people who get detention to do something useful, I have seen plenty of students having to swipe hallways, empty trashcans... etc under the supervision of the schools janitor/cleaner, but the time they have to spend doing it only the time of detention. My gymnasium (school - look it up on Wikipedia if don't know) shares science labs music- , art class, gym and some of the 1st floor classrooms with the middle school that is next to us, they are basically part of the same school unit, we share some teachers even and some management, but the middle school is under another name.

But it think it was right think to do to the kid, if detention doesn't work on him - what else can you do. It might been bit too harsh in a sense of the magnitude that he had to clean. But if he got him to realize and open up about hes feelings and understand what he has done wrong and that he can not use hes situation as an excuse for hes behavior. I think it would been worse if he would been suspended or let go without punishment, because if he sees that he can use hes situation as an excuse it can lead to him doing worse things and not realize hes wrong doing. I can't say for sure that this would be the case since I don't know the kid. But I think this was a better solution compared to the others.

But still, sounds like your schools is bad... really bad. And to be honest what I have seen, your public school system isn't generally better either, teachers being (By Finnish standards) under qualified and most of students lacking desire and motivation to learn. It all stacks up and can cause issues. Ofc I think the kids issues were mainly family related, but I still think American school system could use an overhaul.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

If he was an entitled little brat I doubt you would be so conflicted OP. The fact his home life is shite is horrible but doesn't change the fact he stole and broke the rules. Without sounding like an old cranky fart the real world won't give him any sympathy so he needs to learn now that stealing is not on. As for the punishment: It's only horrible if he doesn't learn anything.

Scrubbing the Jax might seem cruel and unusual to you. but some people have to do it their whole lives. It's not the worst

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

Not sure of the legality of the punishment, but the sharing of the information with you, and in turn anyone who visits this thread probably isn't.

 

[jawakiller]

Water: it's fucking delicious.

If he had stolen water I would have been cool with that. If he had stolen some food because he was hungry, I could sympathize. But the reason he stole a can of soda was retarded. That's like me stealing a steak because I don't like McDonalds. I don't like the food here at the homeless shelter (which is free) so I think I'll go steal some cake. That's the logic.

OFF TOPIC: I can't stand people who dislike water. I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you, dumb ass? You kinda need that shit to live.

BACK OT: As far as fairness goes, he got caught. That means he has to get in trouble. And cleaning isn't that bad. I don't care how bad the bathrooms are. Kid could probably use the skills he gained if his logic for stealing is that he doesn't like water. Act like that in the real world and you won't last long.

The hell? Half the school day for a drink that costs £1?
I wonder how much cleaners get paid for half a days work. More than £1 at any rate.
Giving a kid who has a shit home life a job that is likely to humiliate him in front of all the other kids is just really, really fucking stupid.

That made so little sense. It was a punishment. The kid wasn't working to pay back the price of the drink, he was working as a punishment. Should a kid with a shitty life be given special treatment? Wouldn't that encourage him to do it again?

Just a question.