Isn't there room for both men and women in AAA gaming?

Burnouts3s3

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I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?

In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics). So, why can't there be the same in video games? In other forms of media, there's content for women as well as men. Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
 

Sack of Cheese

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It's getting better. People (gamers and developers) start to be aware of the unnecessary "fanservice", hence we start to get more and more of these "sexism in games" discussions. It led to changes too. For example: Divinity Original Sin changed its concept art after receiving community feedback to be more serviceable to women.

Plus more games add women as its playable characters, such as in the case of the two latest Alien games. It's not a fast change, but it's still progress. Not to say that women don't want to play as men, or play games that aimed at the male audiences, but some find playing as their own gender, in a setting where their gender is treated with respect, more preferable.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, I dunno.
 

Lilani

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
Because there aren't as many AAA game devs as there are big Hollywood filmmakers just yet. Only a handful of studios and developers create what we think of as "AAA games." Hollywood does as much jumping onto bandwagons and market trends as video games do--have you SEEN the number of vampire and "teen female falls in love with hot supernatural teen male" movies coming out since Twilight? The difference is there are so fewer game devs that make AAA games that when they hop on a bandwagon, pretty much all of them do so because there simply aren't enough of them to fill two bandwagons. Hollywood has enough studios and filmmakers to supply both the "teen vampire" and the "Michael Bay splosion fest" bandwagons. But video games just don't have enough AAA devs to fill two bandwagons without one being the odd one out, and the entire point of hopping on a bandwagon is to NOT be the odd one out.

I think things are certainly getting better, but due to the nature of this cowardly bandwagon jumping it's not moving along as fast as we would like.
 

Elfgore

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I'd say it's because video games are generally a more niche market. And with triple A titles costing a shit ton of money to make, a game with a girl might not sell as well as COD or BF. It all falls down to money and possibly laziness.

Son a *****. Looks like I drastically underestimated the triple A games selling ability.
 

Something Amyss

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
You realise even The Hunger Games is a bit of an anomaly, right? Like, the comparison to film leads to some problems in itself because before The Huger Games, there wasn't much of a market[footnote]in the sense that nobody was selling, not that nobody would buy[/footnote] and even now people are antagonistic towards the movies and the "trend" of a mere half a dozen or so major productions aimed towards women within the genre.

Elfgore said:
I'd say it's because video games are generally a more niche market.
Except they're one of the biggest entertainment markets in the world.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
You realise even The Hunger Games is a bit of an anomaly, right? Like, the comparison to film leads to some problems in itself because before The Huger Games, there wasn't much of a market[footnote]in the sense that nobody was selling, not that nobody would buy[/footnote] and even now people are antagonistic towards the movies and the "trend" of a mere half a dozen or so major productions aimed towards women within the genre.
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.

If there's one thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right, I think it is her Bechdel testing of the Oscar nominees. It really highlights how underrepresented women still are in movies.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Except they're one of the biggest entertainment markets in the world.
Recent market figures seems to suggest that in terms of revenue, it is the biggest. True AAA games regularly cash in more than major blockbuster movies and have development costs that put many big production movies to shame. Calling that "niche" is kind of like calling Mont Blanc or K2 "hills".
 

Zhukov

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I believe the perception is that there aren't enough female gamers into the AAA-type games to provide enough of a market for a single female-aimed AAA title, let alone a bunch of them. AAA Developers/publishers believe that they need the male audience to buy into their games in order to turn a profit, period. If some women buy in a well, cool. If a lot of women buy in as well, then great. But Team Y Chromosome forms the core market.

I have absolutely no idea if any of that is true or not, but I believe that's the reasoning.
 

Redd the Sock

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Don't give Hollywood too much credit for diversity over video games. There's a lot out there that doesn't get the screen time of the blockbusters (foreign films, documentaries, art films, anime, even westerns) for the same reason female game characters the shaft, a perception of or a legitimate lack of demand. TV is no different as the big networks follow the prevailing trends, while some shows need specialty networks to get air time.

Some of the difference is financial. The games industry just isn't as full of entities with large capital pools or investment resources to draw from, or enough goodwill to weather out failure. A bad performing movie or tv show is just a blotch on the record, not the difference between staying in business and looking for new jobs. Distribution outlets are in the same place and can't afford 20 copies of a niche game.

On the other side has been a lack of demand on the one side to turn a niche release into a success. It's easy to forget thet the Hunger games was not original a blockbuster style film. It was just another optioned tween novel for film released in March where it wouldn't have to compete with the big movies, and they found they had a hit on their hands. Nothing breaks through the perceptions of what sells than something that by all rights shouldn't have been a major hit, suddenly being a major hit. Games hasn't really had one of those in a long time. The Tomb Raider reboot did well, but as an established series, it was expected to, but others flop or stay in their niches.
 

krazykidd

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Sack of Cheese said:
It's getting better. People (gamers and developers) start to be aware of the unnecessary "fanservice", hence we start to get more and more of these "sexism in games" discussions. It led to changes too. For example: Divinity Original Sin changed its concept art after receiving community feedback to be more serviceable to women.

Plus more games add women as its playable characters, such as in the case of the two latest Alien games. It's not a fast change, but it's still progress. Not to say that women don't want to play as men, or play games that aimed at the male audiences, but some find playing as their own gender, in a setting where their gender is treated with respect, more preferable.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, I dunno.
I prefer the original concept art. Hopefully we would be able to have both. Oh who am i kidding, this is the gaming community, it's all or nothing with you ( general "you") people.

Edit: i swear i must be playing games wrong, because i don't care if the charactees are guys/girls/animals, if they are sexy, ugly, clothed or naked.
 

Phasmal

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Yes, I suppose we could assume there is room in gaming for both men and women to be appealed to, but in a market where men are usually being exclusively appealed to, the idea of game developers appealing to anyone else can make some gamers feel like they are losing something that `belongs` to them.

It irks me when people talk about female gamers and then straight away switch to talking about casual gamers, as if they are one and the same, they really aren't.
I hear so many guys say `Well I'VE never seen a female on [popular online game]!`- like, how would you know? People are very quick to auto-penis you on the internet. Unless you go out of your way to say you are a woman, they will assume you are not. And if you DO say- god forbid.
 

mecegirl

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Phasmal said:
Yes, I suppose we could assume there is room in gaming for both men and women to be appealed to, but in a market where men are usually being exclusively appealed to, the idea of game developers appealing to anyone else can make some gamers feel like they are losing something that `belongs` to them.

It irks me when people talk about female gamers and then straight away switch to talking about casual gamers, as if they are one and the same, they really aren't.
I hear so many guys say `Well I'VE never seen a female on [popular online game]!`- like, how would you know? People are very quick to auto-penis you on the internet. Unless you go out of your way to say you are a woman, they will assume you are not. And if you DO say- god forbid.
Auto-penis...I'm gonna have to use that. My username is not always Mecegirl but even when it is I've had people auto-penis me. As for the "casual" games. Maybe i'm just getting older but I remember when "casual" games were on consoles. What exactally is the difference between Harvest Moon and Farmville again? And puzzle games used to be on consoles too. So it's odd for me to hear people talk about such games as if they are lesser.

OP: There technically is. They wouldn't even need to change much, just spread the protagonist love around and market appropriately. I think people make the mistake of trying to appeal to women who don't like speculative fiction. It's like, if all a woman wants to watch/read is romance and drama let her. That's cool, but you probably won't get that woman to play video games, not even by just inserting a sub plot for romance in your game. Of course most people have varied interests, and engage certain genre's when we are in the mood.

I know a lot of women love the Horror genre and when survival horror games were more mainstream a lot of women played those games. The same for rpg's with fantasy elements, especially the ones from Japan. But if you look at western RPG's with fantasy elements there are a lot of female fans of those franchises. It may be harder to sell military shooters to women but that's about it.

I dare to say that the PS2 era helped increase the number of female gamers. This is anecdotal, but I know a lot of women who restrict their gaming to handhelds because the type of games they enjoy are rarely released on consoles (especially if they like Japanese games). And some who stopped playing during the start of the PS3/Xbox 360 era because there were few games that looked interesting to them, but they were avid gamers before.
 

Vern5

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I would say No. Your average AAA game is designed from the ground up to appeal to the very lowest of brows first and everyone else afterward. A fool and his money are soon parted and all that. And the very lowest of brows are generally found attached to young, moneyed, white males so women will always be a tertiary audience.
 

Something Amyss

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Gethsemani said:
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
I remember "The L Word" got plenty of both of those. Which is funny, because you'd especially expect a show about lesbians to focus on women.

They could probably stand to have more variety in the casting, but it's amazing that's a slam when they're already a leg up.

If there's one thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right, I think it is her Bechdel testing of the Oscar nominees. It really highlights how underrepresented women still are in movies.
A braindead chimp could do that, and plenty of people (presumably not braindead) have done the same. In fact, you can find more than a few who have done it without drawing so much ire, so there's a chance the friend zoners will actually listen. Basically, other people have done the same thing and I think in a particularly better way.

The thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right is shown the hostility this community has for women. Even if nothing she said was at all true, the kneejerkers have made a point about sexism that is powerful and resounding.

Recent market figures seems to suggest that in terms of revenue, it is the biggest. True AAA games regularly cash in more than major blockbuster movies and have development costs that put many big production movies to shame. Calling that "niche" is kind of like calling Mont Blanc or K2 "hills".
Yeah, I don't have exact numbers so I hedged it. Wasn't GTA like the biggest entertainment release weekend last year? Larger than any movie? And Blops 2 the year before? I could be wrong, but I think I remember that.

Zhukov said:
I believe the perception is that there aren't enough female gamers into the AAA-type games to provide enough of a market for a single female-aimed AAA title, let alone a bunch of them. AAA Developers/publishers believe that they need the male audience to buy into their games in order to turn a profit, period. If some women buy in a well, cool. If a lot of women buy in as well, then great. But Team Y Chromosome forms the core market.

I have absolutely no idea if any of that is true or not, but I believe that's the reasoning.
It keeps getting reposted on here, so maybe it will again, but it's been claimed that the most popular games with women on consoles are in line with the most popular games overall/with men/however you want to phrase that. Women are still about a quarter of the population (That one I can source to Wikipedia), though, so you could sort of argue a population issue. But then again, a smaller body of women is hardly unexpected when they're not marketed to and don't necessarily feel included (and oft feel deliberately excluded or pushed away).

Vern5 said:
I would say No. Your average AAA game is designed from the ground up to appeal to the very lowest of brows first and everyone else afterward. A fool and his money are soon parted and all that. And the very lowest of brows are generally found attached to young, moneyed, white males so women will always be a tertiary audience.
Yes, women prefer classy things. Take, for example, Twilight. Highest of the brows.
 

Albino Boo

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The problem is what would be a AAA game that is aimed at women. Its not just a question of replacing a male lead character with a female one. Ripley and Sarah Connor are lead characters in big blockbusters but those films primary audience is still men. Hollywood very early on made "chick flicks" when budgets were low and it wasn't a huge risk to make something different. Apart from some of the sierra adventure games, most of the early days of gaming were games made by men for men. No one has established a genre of female oriented games at 50 million plus is a lot of money to risk on something that there is no established market for and no one knows what it would be like.



Gethsemani said:
Recent market figures seems to suggest that in terms of revenue, it is the biggest. True AAA games regularly cash in more than major blockbuster movies and have development costs that put many big production movies to shame. Calling that "niche" is kind of like calling Mont Blanc or K2 "hills".
Under some definitions gaming is the biggest market but look at the price point differential between a AAA game and a movie ticket. In terms of numbers of people buying, gaming is way behind. Avengers assemble sold 72 million tickets in the US and the best call of duty sold 28 million units worldwide. Having a larger audience means that the breakeven point is at a much smaller market share.
 

mecegirl

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Gethsemani said:
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
Why would they not include other minorities? I don't know if you meant to imply this, but being a racial minority and a woman is possible. The same as being a sexual minority and a woman. And when the show is set in New York, one of the most diverse cities in the U.S, yes it should have diversity. There are too many shows set in urban spaces without diversity for people to let that criticism drop.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Women are only "a niche market" because there is no marketing vis a vis gaming that is aimed at them, or if it is, it is done incredibly poorly.

Publishers assume that teenage boys are the only market worth noting, so they are primarily aiming their campaigns at that demographic, whilst ignoring all the others which are as, if not more significant than they.

And of course there should be more women in AAA gaming, as should there be more of anyone with genuine talent. Development is a bit of a secluded big boy's treehouse right now, but I feel like that is slowly starting to change.

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is and always will be the way women are treated in games, either because the devs don't understand what they are doing, or are too lazy to make well-rounded female characters, or the publishers don't understand gaming at all and are incredible retards.

I like to think its the latter, because it means that I can direct my hate further at Bobby Kotick.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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mecegirl said:
Gethsemani said:
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
Why would they not include other minorities? I don't know if you meant to imply this, but being a racial minority and a woman is possible. The same as being a sexual minority and a woman. And when the show is set in New York, one of the most diverse cities in the U.S, yes it should have diversity. There are too many shows set in urban spaces without diversity for people to let that criticism drop.
I see the point of the criticism and I understand your point, but it is also kind of inane to home in on Girls in particular when there are literally dozens of shows being released every year that features a bunch of middle class white guys as the main characters and all these shows avoid the flak. Girls got the criticism specifically because it aimed only to portray white middle class girls in New York, something which drew much, much more ire than it really should.

It is not that I disagree with the criticism, the problem is that the criticism was way out of proportion simply because Girls dared to be about white girls instead of being about white men. Much of the the criticism was even angled in such a way as to suggest that since Girls was about girls it was a show about "our generation of women", while Lena Dunham has repeatedly stated that it is only a show about her particular brand of New Yorker middle class women.
 

Sack of Cheese

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krazykidd said:
I prefer the original concept art. Hopefully we would be able to have both. Oh who am i kidding, this is the gaming community, it's all or nothing with you ( general "you") people.

Edit: i swear i must be playing games wrong, because i don't care if the charactees are guys/girls/animals, if they are sexy, ugly, clothed or naked.
I don't mind either way hehe.
The original concept art looks like it's gonna be cold to wear, so there's that...

Human is boring to play as anyway. I always pick other races first chance I got.
 

carnex

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Well, that is a question that sounds like a soundbite designed to get attention. Ofcourse there is room for everyone in AAA market. The fact that there are many females playing AAA games shows that. Almost nobody (well there are people who do have such agenda) are not about exclusion of players.

That said, as a publisher you go with what market spends money on. There are number of different studies and reasons why males spend much more money on games sold as packaged goods for 60USD (or your regional equivalent). Mass Effect 3, for example, heavily promoted female Sheppard and saw 18% of female Sheppard in game. 18% of market is not bad but 82% i better couple of times over. And even that is if we take that every femShep was actually a female player which is not the case. But since I don't have the data how many of players played opposite gender character i will go with that. You by games as a significant group, you get catered to, you don't buy games and you don't get catered to

Also, that example with cover of new divinity game only servers to reinforce my belief that most of advocates for "gender equality" are into it as shallow as a plate of soup. And I was the artist I would respond by removing guys abdomen and leg armor. I actually do believe that Dragon's Crown artist response, as far as graphics go (insinuations of ones sexual preferences were just to childish), was right thing to do. Treat characters equally if that's what you demand.

Actually I have my theory what is going on here and in similar cases (not just female representation in AAA games but many other things). It's a variation on reasons for geek culture explosion but i really need to bounce it of more people whose judgment I trust before I can put it to the public scrutiny.
 

Amaror

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?

In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics). So, why can't there be the same in video games? In other forms of media, there's content for women as well as men. Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
I feel a bit like Captain Obvious right now, but isn't this allready the case?
We allready have one of the biggest gaming franchises ever aimed mostly at women - The Sims.
Additionaly there are a ton of smaller titles aimed at women. Particullary hidden object games are really popular.
Most of the games we consider tripple A titles are aimed or at least advertised to men, but the same is true for most Movie Blockbusters. Most of them are action movies advertised towards men.
Hunger Games is a bit special, being an action franchise about a woman, but even that significantly decreased the action and increased the touchy, feely, romantic stuff as time went on. God, the third book was crap.
And then you have the mobile/casual market, which is mostly aimed to appeal to everyone regardless of gender.
 

gargantual

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Lilani said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
Because there aren't as many AAA game devs as there are big Hollywood filmmakers just yet. Only a handful of studios and developers create what we think of as "AAA games." Hollywood does as much jumping onto bandwagons and market trends as video games do--have you SEEN the number of vampire and "teen female falls in love with hot supernatural teen male" movies coming out since Twilight? The difference is there are so fewer game devs that make AAA games that when they hop on a bandwagon, pretty much all of them do so because there simply aren't enough of them to fill two bandwagons. Hollywood has enough studios and filmmakers to supply both the "teen vampire" and the "Michael Bay splosion fest" bandwagons. But video games just don't have enough AAA devs to fill two bandwagons without one being the odd one out, and the entire point of hopping on a bandwagon is to NOT be the odd one out.

I think things are certainly getting better, but due to the nature of this cowardly bandwagon jumping it's not moving along as fast as we would like.
pretty true, but it does FEEL like theres been too much bandwagoning. At least too much for the game industry's size. We've had too many World of Warcraft copycats, and hardly any alternative takes on Eve Online. Call of Duty's influence has made Capcom and Square Enix terribly shortsighted, in how they tried to action-up, and consolidate their franchises of FF and ResiEvil for demographics who mainly did console multiplayer and didn't care, leaving their real fans upset.

What games are better off doing is seeing the weakness in popular titles whether in theme content or gameplay and using that as a springboard to provide experiences that are only similar at surface level, since they take longer to program.
 

JonnyHG

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
I think what's more important in terms of AAA gaming is not how many women are playing them, but how many are BUYING them. This is something that often gets overlooked in these discussions. I would be really interested to know what percentage of money that was spent on new games was spent by females.
 

Phasmal

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JonnyHG said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
I think what's more important in terms of AAA gaming is not how many women are playing them, but how many are BUYING them. This is something that often gets overlooked in these discussions. I would be really interested to know what percentage of money that was spent on new games was spent by females.
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
mecegirl said:
Auto-penis...I'm gonna have to use that. My username is not always Mecegirl but even when it is I've had people auto-penis me. As for the "casual" games. Maybe i'm just getting older but I remember when "casual" games were on consoles. What exactally is the difference between Harvest Moon and Farmville again? And puzzle games used to be on consoles too. So it's odd for me to hear people talk about such games as if they are lesser.
It is strange, when you think about it. I know people are normally talking Facebook games and things, but it's not like there is a hard line between casual and `core`. I mean, would Fire Emblem be casual, just because it's on handheld? Unless we can agree on an actual distinction, I suppose there's not much point differentiating.
 

Thaluikhain

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Gethsemani said:
I see the point of the criticism and I understand your point, but it is also kind of inane to home in on Girls in particular when there are literally dozens of shows being released every year that features a bunch of middle class white guys as the main characters and all these shows avoid the flak. Girls got the criticism specifically because it aimed only to portray white middle class girls in New York, something which drew much, much more ire than it really should.
Er...they do? Surely people keep complaining about endless shows featuring nobody but straight white guys?

Possibly "Girls" got more attention for standing out (by having female characters), or people claiming it to be terribly progressive, but I didn't see it being unfairly attacked.
 

Doomtrack

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I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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thaluikhain said:
Er...they do? Surely people keep complaining about endless shows featuring nobody but straight white guys?

Possibly "Girls" got more attention for standing out (by having female characters), or people claiming it to be terribly progressive, but I didn't see it being unfairly attacked.
Sure people do. But there was an disproportionately large number of people that levied the "white girl" criticism against Girls compared to how many levied "white guy" criticism against many other shows that had the exact same problem that year. As I said, it is a legit criticism of Girls but Girls got hit with it much harder than was customary, most likely because it also drew attention for being a show about women.
 

VoEC

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You should take a look at this article by Anjin Anhut: http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/2013/12/marketers-fear-female-geek-2/
I would say it pretty much sums up what the problem with marketing (especially in games) is.

(Also Anjin is a pretty cool guy, has very interesting stuff on his blog)
 

Phasmal

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Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
I don't really get that though.
What does pretending to be a woman do in the long run? Nothing. It doesn't do anything, or hurt anyone.
So it's not really a problem.

Mostly, on games that are more social, like with MMO's- if someone assumes I'm male, I just correct them and it's normally not a big thing. But they all start from the same assumption instead of just asking.
 

Lieju

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Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
So?

Why not then consider everyone non-gendered until you actually know, then?
Or take their word for it. Why not?

Why is 'male' the norm there?

If someone tells me they're female on the net, I'm inclined to take their word for it, at least to the extent that I'd refer to them as female or something. I have no reason to treat them differently.
It's not like I'm going to try to have sex (or get nudes or whatever) with random people on the net.

What do you care if someone is pretending to be female or male?
 

Bluestorm83

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There WOULD be plenty of room in "AAA" gaming (whatever that means these days) for anyone who wants to Play Videogames...

But these days, it seems to be crowded full of hundreds upon hundreds of people who want to Censor Videogames, Ban Videogames, Shame Videogames, Change Videogames, Sell Videogames, or turn Videogames into "e-sports." Everyone needs to take their bullshit elsewhere, because VIDEOGAMES.

That said, I'm the Blue Guy from Contra, and I don't care if the Red Guy is a girl, a homosexual, a double amputee, a quadrapalegic utilizing some mouth control, or a baby with tentacles, compound eyes, and the face of that guy from the Norelco commercial where he declares that he'd fuck himself. So long as whoever Red Guy is has fun Playing Videogames.

VIDEO

GAMES
 

Doomtrack

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Lieju said:
Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
So?

Why not then consider everyone non-gendered until you actually know, then?
Or take their word for it. Why not?

Why is 'male' the norm there?

If someone tells me they're female on the net, I'm inclined to take their word for it, at least to the extent that I'd refer to them as female or something. I have no reason to treat them differently.
It's not like I'm going to try to have sex (or get nudes or whatever) with random people on the net.

What do you care if someone is pretending to be female or male?
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
 

Funyahns

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Its not only the female market being ignored though. They actively go after that 15-22 year old crowd of gamers. There is an older market out there as well who want more than just violence and gore.
 

ExtraDebit

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You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

So with that in mind, they will make shit to pander to whoever they think will give them the most money weather is male, female or dogs and they only going to do it to exactly fulfill your hunger like a cheese burger but never truly inspire or satisfy you like a well done steak.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
 

A-D.

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The thing is..marketing and audience. So you probably saw that "45% of all Gamers are Female" thing from the ESA, right? Quick show of hands, who here actually believes at least half of every Call of Duty Player is female? Starcraft? Battlefield? Okay, another test, how many people here think Candy Crush has at least 45% male players? FarmVille?

You see the problem, games are marketed at an audience that exists, not an audience that might possibly exist. Yes you could make a game that could have half its playerbase be female, you could also make a game that could make all of WoW subscribers leave WoW and come to your MMO. Just because something could potentially happen doesnt mean it will, even if you were to make the perfect game which would appeal to the potential female audience it does not mean that said audience would actually play your game.

Men and Women have different tastes in gaming, that doesnt say they all do, but most do, hence alot of women dont really play CoD or other big AAA Games, because the game does not appeal to them. We should not have to bend over backwards to get a bigger audience at the expense of the audience that we already know exists. We should not have to "broaden the appeal" or change something because some woman, somewhere, thinks that she MIGHT be more inclined to play a certain type of game if it was different. Because the logical assumption here is, she is not interested in that type of game to begin with. If you demand something about a existing genre has to be changed so you could be accomodated means that you dont want that particular genre, you want an entirely different genre that may include parts of an already existing one.

So is there "room" for both genders in the AAA Industry? Quite frankly, there is. But we cannot and should not demand change one way or the other to include both genders unless both genders actually want to play a specific title. Because in doing so, we destroy what already exists in the vain hope that both genders will actually play that game. In example if you were to take Battlefield and change it so it is appealing to more female gamers, you might risk alienating the already existing playerbase which could result in a drop of your audience entirely, rather than increasing the audience. You simply exchange one for the other.
 

Burnouts3s3

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I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so. You can't count on the vocal angry crowd, because they're mostly there to cry foul at all the injustices, rather than actually being interested in spending as much money on games as the usual gaming crowd.

Should there be space for both? Absolutely, but I do not envy anyone who has to make the decision of making such a game, not to mention the economical risk as well as the risk of the people you employ, that might suddenly find themselves jobhunting.

As for ESA's report... I'd like to see more of the actual research and less of the oversimplified results.

ExtraDebit said:
You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

So with that in mind, they will make shit to pander to whoever they think will give them the most money weather is male, female or dogs and they only going to do it to exactly fulfill your hunger like a cheese burger but never truly inspire or satisfy you like a well done steak.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
Amen.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
 

Doomtrack

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Phasmal said:
Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
It should not work, if it did i would not have said "try" but that is besides the point, the point is that i do not trust a single person on the internet before i get to know them, regardless of what topic it is.

I want to make this very clear, it is not the fact that they are trying to masquerade as female, it is the fact that some people try to trick other people as soon as they get a chance online.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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to the title thread:

Yes, yes there is plenty of room. Gaming is still relatively young compared to hollywood, and nowhere near as abundant in AAA development size, so there is always room to grow in that regard.

That being said, those big AAA companies are out to make money, so they're probably going to stick to tried formulas/ideas because they know how to do those and already have a fanbase for those, so unless you can convince tons of stockholders/publishers to change that, then it'll happen at a much slower pace. Changing established IP's and ideas for a POSSIBLE market while also POSSIBLY alienating the people you already have is a risky business decision, so thanks to capitalism that's probably not gonna change quickly anytime soon.


Kickstarter is probably the best bet for stuff like that, getting some new and awesome ideas out there and have it be bought up like crazy will cause pub's to rethink and try new things hopefully.

Phasmal said:
Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
Now I've never actually fallen for that crap and I don't distrust someone instantly as soon as they identify as female,I couldn't care less one way or the other, but it was pretty damn common (especially in mmo's) to pretend to be a girl so you'd get tons of free shit, especially gold, just for the electron sized chance that you might get to see some boobies. I had plenty of doucher friends in my teenage years who would do this all the time just to manipulate the market and get free stuff.(speaking as a male who works at a place that has quite possibly the biggest playboy collection in a 500 square mile radius, looking at the same boobs gets boring, so seeing new boobs sparks a slight interest in that theory)

if you still don't get it, then I don't think you'll ever understand how neanderthal like a guys brain can get when filled with testosterone and not shooting some baby gravy for a while.
 

mecegirl

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Gethsemani said:
mecegirl said:
Gethsemani said:
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
Why would they not include other minorities? I don't know if you meant to imply this, but being a racial minority and a woman is possible. The same as being a sexual minority and a woman. And when the show is set in New York, one of the most diverse cities in the U.S, yes it should have diversity. There are too many shows set in urban spaces without diversity for people to let that criticism drop.
I see the point of the criticism and I understand your point, but it is also kind of inane to home in on Girls in particular when there are literally dozens of shows being released every year that features a bunch of middle class white guys as the main characters and all these shows avoid the flak. Girls got the criticism specifically because it aimed only to portray white middle class girls in New York, something which drew much, much more ire than it really should.

It is not that I disagree with the criticism, the problem is that the criticism was way out of proportion simply because Girls dared to be about white girls instead of being about white men. Much of the the criticism was even angled in such a way as to suggest that since Girls was about girls it was a show about "our generation of women", while Lena Dunham has repeatedly stated that it is only a show about her particular brand of New Yorker middle class women.
It probably seems inane to you because you don't see the criticism of other shows. There is plenty of criticism about the racial/ sexual make up of shows, but its not like the opinions of minorities get pushed into mainstream discourse that often. And just like any other show with a lack of diversity this show was criticized by minorities. It is just that this time, because some who are not minorities shared the the criticism, that their seemed to be a louder outcry.

Lena may not have intended for her show to be about "our generation of women" but White and heterosexual individuals are considered the default. And with feminism, or what some call mainstream feminism, the same is true. To the point that women who are minorities are wary of the movement because they have noticed that issues specific to their experience as women are pushed to the wayside.

Viewers would take her show to be about "our generation of women" even if she doesn't mean for it to be because of the racial and sexual make up of the cast. That also makes it easier for her show to be put on the air.

Either way, I seriously doubt that the minority women who criticized the show criticized it because it dared to not be about white men.
 

carnex

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Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
Up to this point all statistic show that those numbers are radically different. And yes it matters who bought. Whoever bought is a customer. 10 other people might play the game but they didn't for over the cash. When whoever creates statistics he knows only of the buyer. And even if he knew about other players they are of much less value to his since they didn't pay.
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
But you see, Phasmal me-dear, that does make you a filthy pirate. Don't you know that game-sharing is wrong? :p

Obnoxious jab at the game industry out of the way, it is worth noting what kind of games women are typically associated with playing (regardless of what they're actually playing). Males gamers are typically seen as the people who'll buy a yearly / bi-yearly installment of a $60 franchise, plus all the applicable DLC. The ladies, on the otherhand, are primarily associated with F2P / $0.99 mobile games, Facebook games, and the Sims. Out of those, only the Sims is anywhere near AAA. The $60 annual / biannual games males are associated with are more-or-less the lifeblood of most of the AAA industry.

Long story short, it's the ever-obvious perception issue. Much of the AAA market runs under the assumption that, while a large female market exists, few women are actually going to play their game, and design said games with that philosophy in mind. At least here in the U.S. anyways - Japan in general seems pretty aware of its female fanbases.
 

Coakle

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ExtraDebit said:
You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
I think I'm getting off topic, but I disagree with some of this sentiment. Yeah, It's pretty self-evident that AAA games are in the business of making money. However, the AAA games industry was built in a way that rewards companies that include sexist elements in their games. Even if the motivation for including these elements are completely Capitalistic, it doesn't change the end product.

I don't there's some grand sexism conspiracy in the AAA industry. There are just some understandable pressures that influence how a game treats women.

OT: I got nothing. The OP is kind of weird because it asks if the AAA is capable of pandering to women. The answer is obviously yes. I don't know if we're suppose to talk about the kinds of obstacles the AAA faces, or what.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Apparently, according to some, no, unless women are willing to only play games aimed towards guys, and dudebros since women will never become viable consumers, thus should never be pandered to, ever, at all.


According to me? Sure! Sooner or later things will balance out. Talks like this will fuel this, and hopefully bring it about sooner.
 

AgedGrunt

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"AAA" sports are basically all men. Still, LPGA and WNBA are things. Anybody watch them?

Most porn is made with men in mind, despite the fact that a lot of women like porn (yet many are turned off by much of what's out there). But it's a perfect example because anyone can make porn and, if popular enough, would become mainstream.

But none of this means mainstream sports (or porn) needs to change. We don't get to choose what's popular and marketable; industries tend to figure that out so they make money.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Phasmal said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]

Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.

Now I actually had this happen, almost and have had other such things happen and wrote this rant [http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/TheKodu/it-s-not-for-lack-of-a-dick-i-insult-you-but-for-being-one-rant-long--253039.phtml]. Now the idea of offering nudes is meant to work on the grounds of well it's showing some level of trust and intimacy as well you're talking to the person it's not just another set of boobs on google image search. You can put a name and personality to them........ Yeh I'm almost making it seem like guys care about more than boobs.


Ok back to the main topic.
"Is there room in the AAA market for Female gamers ? "
Yes

"So what's the issue ?"

Firstly there is no existing market as such (there is a market but it's not seen as large enough to sustain AAA development)so any company making a female aimed AAA game would be taking a risk and the AAA market is more risk averse than it has been in a long time.

Next while people say that 45% of gamers are female that at present doesn't define what games those include so that 45% could simply be them playing Candy Crush Saga and nothing else. Because they play Candy Crush doesn't mean that will be into "core" gaming which is an integral part of the AAA market idea.

So the risk averse AAA market isn't going to take a shot at 45% of the market at best which isn't a solid figure.

It would be nice is there were more games for the female gamers ? Yes


So now people might be questioning what the issue is here now and rightfully so.

The question should be "Is there room in AAA gaming for extremist second wave feminists ?"

Now let me pre-face this part by saying Feminism is a good idea, equal right is a good idea and third wave feminism has started to work to address the more problematic elements of second wave feminism.

So here the issue. The more extreme second wave feminists don't want games for female gamers........... that might come as a shocker but the reason for this is they product is specifying it is for one gender. According to second wave feminist beliefs this is wrong however people in this sector still want games tailored to them and the principals of second wave feminism which some people have taken to extremes.

The issue comes about with the idea that to promote equality then games must adhere to the second wave feminist principals including pacifism. What the perception is that the extreme second wave feminists want games tailored to them and that everyone should accept the games because if not you're against them and as such against what they stand for. It could be seen as a very manipulative stance because it is demanding games tailored to them and no-one else and then attacking people who claim the games isn't for them because it isn't just trying to adhere to equal rights but also extra things added in due to an interpretation of the original second wave feminist values.

Essentially a company could be seen as damned if they do and damned if they don't by the same people as if they make games for a female audience they'll be damned for appealing only to females and not trying to say the game is for guys and daring to make games also aimed at guys.



We're presently in a situation where the main voice of female gamers has become some-one who due to their beliefs could turn AAA gaming into a homogenised grey goop. Now let me say this, it is possible to make games appeal to both male and female gamers however no all games should have to do this.


Finally what I call the "boobs first" argument which is another problem as the look of a female character is often being used as the whole basis for a sexism argument which often overlooks personality.

what you could say is that the chain-mail bikini does have its place along with the loin cloth / fur pelt look.

To give an example of he issue if you look at Dead or Alive, on the surface it looks like pretty much fan service / eye candy (not helped by someone seeing the characters as dress up dolls as shown by the recent DLCs) however the story and characters actually have a fairly positive depth to it with female characters including but not limited to: the CEO of a multinational company and a world leading female geneticist / biologist.

what I could almost compare the complaints to would be me moaning (and not in a mocking way) that all Male characters are idealised and aren't all Rufus from Street Fighter because I'm closer to looking like Rufus than Kratos.



now for a final very odd thing. The community I've seen that had closest to the 45% female to male ratio in AAA console gaming was Gears of War 1. No I'm not joking either when I used to play it fairly regularly I used to run into a lot of female gamers on it.
 

JonnyHG

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Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
To be honest, I didn't even consider piracy. I have just seen statistics thrown around that say X% of people who play games are female. That's great but in a male dominated game industry, AAA games will be catered towards the male audience. My logic is that since this is true, males would be more likely to shell out the cash for a brand new game. I'm not saying that females don't, can't or shouldn't. Clearly, females do play AAA games. I would just be interested to know the difference in percentage between those that play AAA games aimed at a male audience and those that are willing to pay full price for those games. I believe the discrepancy is bigger than some might think. We just happen to disagree on the subject and that's okay.

Where is the money that is being used to buy the game coming from? Who is bringing home the cash? Do you both have jobs and throw all of your monies into the same account? If the game is being bought for both of you, then the one who earned the money bought the game. This is just my opinion. If your bf buys the game, then a male bought it but both a male and female played it. This situation would contribute to the discrepancy between females buying new AAA games and females playing AAA games. If you bought the game with money you earned then of it would be the other way around.
 

Eve Charm

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First there are only a few things that can brandish Triple A or at least Triple A sales. The problem tho, Big name FPS, Lumping all of sports together, and the occasional GTA/Elders Scrolls/Fallout are about the only thing triple A, and as far as their market data go, Are still bought more by men ages 14-35 and if a game is still going to be triple A, you have to target that.

Now that hasn't Stopped the Two big FPS's of last year and Titanfall to add a gender option for your character, Games like Last of us and Bioshock infinite story being more focused and about the Female character rather then the male player character, and your western RPG's not mattering what gender/race you are. Sports are still sports.

Sadly though no one praises any of that and want the all or nothing scenario. Like there should be "Female characters in gaming" reparations because of how dominate male characters were before in the past. I expect people to not be happy until it's GTA 6 with an all female cast which will most likely never happen.
 

carnex

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That is so true. As a group we are so quick to blame and to spread our disappointment and even hate all over the internet. But I wouldn't say it's up to gamers that much, although that is factor also. Gaming media which is steaming pile of excrement in my opinion is as sensationalistic as socialite magazines. Whenever some group complains, especially about some form of popular discrimination or that complain paints big publishers in bad light they sound their horns like it's 1944 and combined RAF and USAF are unloading bombs from all their bombers at once. In that atmosphere all the positive feedback and constructive criticism can easily be drowned out.

Luckily, at least in interviews, developers do acknowledge positive and constructive feedback that is there but I don't know how much publishers and their marketing/consumer research departments are versed in ignoring sensationalistic shouting. I'm afraid that they are more susceptible to loud noise than to thoughtful word. I may be giving them too little credit but, so far, results are not proving me wrong.
 

Atmos Duality

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There is plenty of room, but AAA is too addicted to their marketing data; believing it infallible.

And why not? It's made them a tremendous amount of money over the years. So like any large corporate entity, it will do everything in its power to maintain the status quo; abjectly refusing to change anything until it's already thrashing about in its death throes.

You can no more get the AAA to venture outside of their "safe" market zone than you could teach an elephant to tapdance; a blind, bloated, aging elephant.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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The_Kodu said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]


Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.
You know how many times a guy has given me something for free on a game for being a girl?
Never. Not even once.
Unless you count all the free harassment and insults. Gee, guys, you shouldn't have.

I mean it, seriously, I've been all kinds of involved in all kinds of games and have never had someone just GIVE me something because I was female.
The_Kodu said:
Now the idea of offering nudes is meant to work on the grounds of well it's showing some level of trust and intimacy as well you're talking to the person it's not just another set of boobs on google image search. You can put a name and personality to them........ Yeh I'm almost making it seem like guys care about more than boobs.
Ok if you're doing something just because some random username promised you nudes I am guessing you don't care about their personality. Or you would just do it for their personality.
Either way it's pretty dumb and I can't say I feel sorry for people who fall for it.
JonnyHG said:
Where is the money that is being used to buy the game coming from? Who is bringing home the cash? Do you both have jobs and throw all of your monies into the same account? If the game is being bought for both of you, then the one who earned the money bought the game. This is just my opinion. If your bf buys the game, then a male bought it but both a male and female played it. This situation would contribute to the discrepancy between females buying new AAA games and females playing AAA games. If you bought the game with money you earned then of it would be the other way around.
I am the only one with money right now so I guess all the games are belong to me.
I wouldn't be surprised if this situation happens a lot though, most of the girl gamers I know who play `core` are in long-term relationships with other gamers.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]


Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.
You know how many times a guy has given me something for free on a game for being a girl?
Never. Not even once.
Unless you count all the free harassment and insults. Gee, guys, you shouldn't have.

I mean it, seriously, I've been all kinds of involved in all kinds of games and have never had someone just GIVE me something because I was female.
I do recall a time way back when it seemed people would give you help if they thought you were a girl. This was way way back in my muding days. It wasn't like I actually got anything good, but people did treat me differently based on what gender they thought I was.

Now a days I find people still give me stuff, but they do it regardless of my avatar's gender. It's still mostly crap and that can be a little awkward as I have to think of a way to show appreciation before I sell the gifts off as vender trash.

The harassment or unwanted attention from being thought of as a women is about the same then and now. That is one thing that I don't think has changed much. I get some people asking for really personal information or naked pictures if they think I'm woman. They never ask if they think I am a guy. I use to be kind of evasive and avoid the creep, but now a days I straight up tell them how creepy that is.

It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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In regards to giving/being given stuff- generally in games I spend a reasonable amount of time on I am an officer of a guild, so I'm usually the one giving stuff out to guildies. I've been previously told I am `the nicest guy`.

nomotog said:
It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
I hear that, spent a few years being a dude on games, nobody was any the wiser. It was pretty cool, until I started wanting to be myself and use voice chat and things.
 

verdant monkai

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Thank you Andrew Siribohdi for showing us the way! no one had considered this before you led us to the light!!
 

Burnouts3s3

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There always was. It's just one of those things that 'AAA' decided on. You know like when they decided that Survival Horror games don't sell well. or when they decided that turn based JRPG's don't sell well.

Truth is far more complex than reality.

Gamers are actually pretty gender neutral when you get down to it. Proof?

You're playing Street FIghter MK, or any fighting game and notice your opponent is female... do you say 'Ah easy fight?' Or to put it this way.

"Whew! the boss is a chick, this will be easy' Said NO Gamer EVER (or at least more than once).
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Phasmal said:
In regards to giving/being given stuff- generally in games I spend a reasonable amount of time on I am an officer of a guild, so I'm usually the one giving stuff out to guildies. I've been previously told I am `the nicest guy`.

nomotog said:
It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
I hear that, spent a few years being a dude on games, nobody was any the wiser. It was pretty cool, until I started wanting to be myself and use voice chat and things.
I try to avoid guilds. They just don't mesh with me. They are so organized and I tend to... not be. I do notice that most of the time when someone is giving me items it's someone form a guild. Maybe they are just trying to butter me up so I won't auto reject their invitation as I tend to do. I'm ashamed to say it mostly works. (Have you noticed the how common uninsulated guild or group invites are? When I play, I normally get 3 or more a play station. They come with no tell or explanation attached and I normally just knock them down.

Being able to pick your genre is a nice aspect of mmos and ya it's part of why I shy away from voice chat. (The other reason being the increased bandwidth and the impression it makes me too hard core.) I tend to still be myself when I'm dudeing it. I don't try to dude up my style or anything though even if that leads to some interesting bits. Nor do I try to girl up my style when playing as a woman. That leads to different interesting bits.
 

Kerethos

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Based on my own experience I have to say yes, there is definitely room for both men and women in AAA gaming. And based on the women I game with I'd say the most common thing in what games they enjoy is mostly the same things that I enjoy. And what turns them away from certain games seem to overlapping to some degree as well.

So based on a quick check on what they play I've picked up this: Women like gender equal (basically you can be male or female) and capable female characters. RPG's, MMO games and some shooters come to mind.

Games that women seem to avoid, from my narrow male perspectives point of view, are games that suffer from sexualised character design. They - like men - want capable characters, not sexy ones. It's fine to be good looking, but sexualisation does not appeal. Portals Chell, Gears of Wars Anya Stroud, the sirens in Borderlands Lilith and Maya, Femshep those seem to be liked by the women I game with.

Basically, this type of character design does not appeal to the women I game with:


This does:


I'd hardy call my conclusions science, by any stretch of the imagination. But a little deduction tells me that there seems to be some kind of pattern to it. It also seems that there's certainly room for both genders. But who knows, maybe it's just the sleep deprivation, drugs and intense pain that's making me see things that are not there? Bedtime I think, before the Rabbid behind my TV tries to eat my cheese.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Eve Charm said:
First there are only a few things that can brandish Triple A or at least Triple A sales. The problem tho, Big name FPS, Lumping all of sports together, and the occasional GTA/Elders Scrolls/Fallout are about the only thing triple A, and as far as their market data go, Are still bought more by men ages 14-35 and if a game is still going to be triple A, you have to target that.

Now that hasn't Stopped the Two big FPS's of last year and Titanfall to add a gender option for your character, Games like Last of us and Bioshock infinite story being more focused and about the Female character rather then the male player character, and your western RPG's not mattering what gender/race you are. Sports are still sports.

Sadly though no one praises any of that and want the all or nothing scenario. Like there should be "Female characters in gaming" reparations because of how dominate male characters were before in the past. I expect people to not be happy until it's GTA 6 with an all female cast which will most likely never happen.
I certainly praised Titanfall, and CoD for having a female option. Still, it's just the option, and I doubt it matter much at all to the game which you pick. I'm not saying the option isn't nice, but saying "mission accomplished, equality's reached" is still an overstatement.
Honestly, neither event was publicized much, either. It wasn't a huge event. Not being something of a splash kinda dulled the impact of these events, so people don't talk about it. It's hard to make a huge deal out of these events due to that, and the fact it's just gender select.

Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.

TLOU added a DLC where you play as Ellie, and you could play as her temporarily in the main game. That's actual progress, but not entirely there. I doubt I'm alone in not wanting to play as the guy for most of the game just so I can play as the girl for a smaller fraction of it.

Pretty sure gender select has been in several sports games, but it's been so rare as I forgot which game. Still, lets not pretend NBA Jam doesn't exist, where there's several playable women who are in no way handicapped due to the fantasy world of NBA Jam. Peach is in mario sports to say the least. Frankly, we just gotta get the fantasy sporting game into more systems than just Nintendo's more often, IMO.
I've not heard much interest in "equality" in the front of fighting games since, IMO, the gender ratio's pretty decent in that single genre, and only that one for some reason.

As towards GTA 6 with an "all female cast" I'm guessing you're either aiming at extremes on purpose, or only looking at playable characters. The latter, if they abandon the multiple points of view mechanic from 5 (it could happen)and have one character, an all female cast would be sought after, yes.

If they don't abandon the multiple points of view mechanic from 5, I'm pretty sure at least one of them being female would be more than enough, provided she gets the same care as the guys get. Sure there'll be some demanding all of them to be women, but I doubt they'll be as many as the people sated for the time being on having even 1 badass female criminal in a GTA game.

Honestly, IMO, R* has twice over showed us a good candidate for a female lead (Unnamed woman from Read Dead Redemption's side quest "Who are you to judge" not to be confused with the promo art woman, and the female driver from GTA5, Taliana Martinez), even in a DLC side story, yet hasn't managed to capitalize on a female playable character beyond GTAO which is kinda halfassed. Sure female characters have their own swag, and customization, but picking up a prostitute shows obviously male interactions, and that dating site that says "free for women" still charges you, so that kinda hurts the GTAO case. Sure they're pretty trivial things, but they're still there.

In any event, gender select is assuredly not the end all, be all answer IMO. It's due to the fact that your choice so rarely makes a dang for the majority of the game. The equality is nice, but it forces a watered down, sterile, unisex personality for the most part. Few companies do the option any justice.
That said, people want a female playable lead with her own dedicated story. I can't imagine you're angry at people for wanting a playable female protagonist with her own dedicated point of view/script/plot. If it's too much to ask, then I dare say the people asking for a playable female lead are not the unreasonable side of the argument.

I'm not going to pretend progress hasn't been made towards a more palatable representation (at least for me) but it's still nowhere near the point I find acceptable, IMO. That point being nowhere near 50/50 gender ratio, mind you, just in a more common showing.

The more common something becomes, the less of a big deal it'll become, IMO. That said, the more common a female lead you play as from start to finish in a non-gender select game gets, the less of a big deal it becomes, and the less likely we'll see threads like this. Once some sort of equilibrium has been reached, and, frankly, only until then, we're going to see threads like this remain fairly common.
It'll stop being a big deal when it stops being a big deal.

Sorry for the rant. :p
 

michael87cn

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For any kind of content to exist, people have to want to make it. That's the reality of it. If no content that appeals to X exists, then its because nobody has made it yet. Someone has to -want- to make something and it will exist. If people really want to, they will find a way. And lately, it couldn't be easier to make-your-own-video-game.

The opinions of others, mean nothing. They spark drama and generate ad revenue for news channels. That's about it. If someone is really sitting around thinking about making a game they want, but then they hear that X doesn't want it, and that stops them, they must have not really wanted to do it to begin with if they are phased so easily.

You can point fingers at whoever you want, and cite blame or reason or excuse here, there and anywhere and anyway you want, but it doesn't matter. The truth is if someone wants to make something they will. If they don't, then they don't, and they haven't.

In my worthless opinion? Men like games more than women. By a massive majority. We single-handedly created this new world collectively. If women want games that appeal to them, with half-naked men if they want? They should go right ahead and make them. If they want buff-macho women that can be super-heroes, they should make them. If MEN want to make these games for women, why haven't they? They must not want to, and no whining in the world will change that.

There are always minorities and exceptions, but this is all true.
 

carnex

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Rebel_Raven said:
Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.
You might want to try Burial at the Sea DLC for Bioshock Infinite. You play whole 5 or so hours DLC content as Elizabeth.

michael87cn said:
There are quite a few women in both crating and consuming side of this industry. Yes, males were majority, especially around time of gen 2-3 and especially on creative side, but women did participate too.
 

Rebel_Raven

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michael87cn said:
For any kind of content to exist, people have to want to make it. That's the reality of it. If no content that appeals to X exists, then its because nobody has made it yet. Someone has to -want- to make something and it will exist. If people really want to, they will find a way. And lately, it couldn't be easier to make-your-own-video-game.

The opinions of others, mean nothing. They spark drama and generate ad revenue for news channels. That's about it. If someone is really sitting around thinking about making a game they want, but then they hear that X doesn't want it, and that stops them, they must have not really wanted to do it to begin with if they are phased so easily.

You can point fingers at whoever you want, and cite blame or reason or excuse here, there and anywhere and anyway you want, but it doesn't matter. The truth is if someone wants to make something they will. If they don't, then they don't, and they haven't.

In my worthless opinion? Men like games more than women. By a massive majority. We single-handedly created this new world collectively. If women want games that appeal to them, with half-naked men if they want? They should go right ahead and make them. If they want buff-macho women that can be super-heroes, they should make them. If MEN want to make these games for women, why haven't they? They must not want to, and no whining in the world will change that.

There are always minorities and exceptions, but this is all true.
I disagree on so many levels.

There's been many cases where developers had wanted to make female leads, but were put off on this due to the interference of others.

People -want- to make female leads. The opinions of other have stopped them from realizing this.

Lets not forget the pastel monstrosities that are Bratz games, and the sort. Or the games we'll likely never see stateside that are made in Japan that focus on women seeking romance.
The rare offering like Assassin's Creed Liberation, or Child of Light.

The want is there to make female leads. Creativity's being stifled, however.

Making one's own game to try and bring change is a fool's errand, IMO.
1: By the time you finish the game you'll likely hate it. Moreover you'll likely know the game inside and out so playing it is likely worthless because you know what will happen, when it'll happen.
2: Even massive successes on the indie front haven't done much, if anything to influence the greater console market. Game designs, and mechanics from Portal, or Minecraft for example, have seen no major showings in the main game market. Expecting to make an impact, and create pretenders, imitators, or followers is just unrealistic, beyond the indie scene.
3: Not everyone's got the time, funds, vision, or resources to make their own game.
Make your own game is not the answer, bluntly.

Not saying you can't make your own game, but suggesting it as a fix-all is not a sound idea.
If a person wanted to make their own game, they would have by now, most likely.

carnex said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.
You might want to try Burial at the Sea DLC for Bioshock Infinite. You play whole 5 or so hours DLC content as Elizabeth.
Shame it's not standalone DLC AFAIK. I'll get Infinite on the cheap when I can. Paying that much to play as Elisabeth for 5 hours is a bit steep.
Still, it's good news, and some signs of progress.
 

Eve Charm

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Baby steps, Rebel Raven, People hate change, they are afraid of it, so it can only happen in Baby steps. Which in itself, it ISN'T or wasn't made into a big deal about Female characters in your modern military shooters, but it's there. It's Also why your add on DLC is getting in and not the main game or only sections.

Basically look at Microsoft with the Xbone, There will be a day like it or not our gaming will be 100% digital and connected online, Telling people TODAY is that day all of a sudden you had the pitchforks and torches and everyone not buying an XBone. Same when you all of a sudden "Hey Here's that game all the Females been asking for buy it buy it!" and you get basically nothing sales with games like Remember me and Beyond two souls and others.

Just give it time as long as you see progress being made, Not only do they have to lead in the Female gamers pretty much almost like tricking them, they have to get the Guys comfortable playing games with Female leads to.
 

carnex

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@Rebel Raven
I guess you are console gamer. Make your own game is a valid remark for a small percentage of gamers who do have skills, desire and will to make a game. You obviously don't fulfill at least one of those requirements but that doesn't mean that you cant do anything about it other than complaining. Today it's even easier, or at least more credible with digital downloads. My idea would go something like this

- Buy a game digitally
- Play it so it stick to your profile both as purchase and playing material.
- Write a positive and constructive criticism to developers, publisher and company that created console (just CC that email). Even if the female character is highly flawed by your standards don't get caught up in it. You don't want to sound like you have unreasonably high standard for quality of protagonist or character. Make sure to mention name of the account your game is attached to so that they know you are a customer, full price customer if possible.

now comes the real work

- you probably know other female gamers. Convince them to buy game, play it and write their constructive letter.
- Convince them to seek other female gamers to do so.

Well, lastly, hope for the best. That is only way i know, and therefor the best way to really reach big money studios. Indies are easier, just contact their public persona but they are even less likely to hear you. If the had their female character in mind they if make it, otherwise probably not no matter how much you harass them. I know I'm not saying anything new but stating it again never hurts. And realize you are not going to get anything resembling your utopia. Be grateful for any success. Rest will come with time
 

Therumancer

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?

In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics). So, why can't there be the same in video games? In other forms of media, there's content for women as well as men. Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
Well, the thing is that both men and women co-exist within gaming as it is. For the most part video games are co-gender, as they focus on your basic action/adventure/doing exciting stuff premise since you need to have something to do to make them a game. For the most part when it comes to this kind of thing men and women both enjoy the same kind of stuff. To be honest the biggest problem with gender arguments is that people seem to think that the "fan service" and the like drives women away, when really that couldn't be further from the truth. To be honest these sexy female characters in games are exactly like the ones women create themselves when it comes to fantasy and science fiction
and the like. Female artists, writers (including women writing largely for other women), etc... make exactly the same kind of thing which is why it works and sells. For the most part the whole "women are turned off by all the sex appeal" schtick seems to largely come from guys who "don't get it" and seem to think that by making such arguments it's going to make them more desired by women and/or bring more of them into their circle. In reality that's far from the case, and it should be apparent to anyone whose looked at Kim Harrison's writing, "Tru Blood" (and the books it's based on), and numerous other things, not to mention the work of female fantasy artists like Julie Bell. Basically if you think there is a problem, your over analyzing.

As far as niche genera products, those exist too. Your typical AAA action game is already pretty much co-ed with those sexy female characters being like the ones women create for themselves (and indeed inspire all kinds of "Mary Sue" fiction in many cases). Outside of that you have romance games and the like, many of which are produced by companies like "Winter Wolves", not to mention whole sections of the whole "Light Novel" industry. Hidden Object and "Adventure" games have entire series largely created for and primarily marketed towards women in terms of their themes and such.

To be brutally honest if there is any kind of gender discrepancy in gaming, or the media in general, it's actually against men. For all the complaints about the treatment of women in the media, it seems to me that guys are the ones who are really abused. It seems you can hardly put on a TV show without seeing a commercial having women belittle men and present them as dumb, clumsy, buffoons. Even in TV shows you typically have the female characters one-upping the guys constantly, being mildly insulting and patronizing at times, and even going so far as to slapping guys around, grabbing their sex organs, and other assorted things... a common point being that if a guy did anything like that to a girl in one of these shows there would be an outcry, yet it's considered "cool" or "okay" when a girl does it, because it shows "what a strong person she is". In reality in a lot of cases it goes from being "a bit sassy" to "complete and total [email protected]" depending on the scene. You even have entire shows built around some girl running around with more than one male love interest, perhaps even cheating on both of them, and again that's okay when a girl does it as it's all about "love and emotion". A guy doing the same thing is of course presented as being scum nowadays. Look at something like say "True Blood" (which gets even worse in the books).

I find it kind of ironic that people got all upset about "Duke Nukem" based on the guy's behavior, when it was simply the same kind of empowerment fantasy in reverse. Portraying women as being not too bright and handling them as scene dressing or set ups for humor (sometimes off color), and of course Duke apparently shamelessly banging numerous women left and right. Basically Duke acts just like half those "strong female characters" do, except he happens to be a dude... and at least with Duke it's a satire (starting with his name) as opposed to being presented somewhat seriously. Now granted the last game blew chips on it's own merits, but it sort of illustrates the dual standards that when a guy with a name like "Duke Nukem" acts like an arrogant muscle-bound, man-whore, while saving the world and people hate him. On the other hand a character named "Sookie Stackhouse" can run around reading people's minds (which has been compared to brain rape, not that it's been followed through on), lead a bunch of guys around by the nose, and save the world with her mystical fairy powers (she's actually more powerful than any of the dudes who show up to rescue her), and nobody bats an eye there... indeed it sells millions of books and gets it's own highly praised TV series... and let's be honest here, in the intellect department Sookie and Duke are about equal, if they both got together they could each rub their one functioning brain cell together and hope to make a spark. :)

To be honest I'll actually be kind of relieved when we see more "Duke Nukem" type stuff succeeding without being called out every 15 seconds by crusaders wanting to make an issue. It shouldn't be everywhere of course, but the way I see things is the general run of gaming is fine, and men and women are entitled to their own games, and honestly one thing that both genders tend to appreciate is the playful mockery of the other gender. Right now things have actually swung pretty far in the direction of the feminine despite people insisting there is still an issue, I think things need to move back a little more in the other direction and just stay there in the middle.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Sack of Cheese said:
It's getting better. People (gamers and developers) start to be aware of the unnecessary "fanservice", hence we start to get more and more of these "sexism in games" discussions. It led to changes too. For example: Divinity Original Sin changed its concept art after receiving community feedback to be more serviceable to women.

Plus more games add women as its playable characters, such as in the case of the two latest Alien games. It's not a fast change, but it's still progress. Not to say that women don't want to play as men, or play games that aimed at the male audiences, but some find playing as their own gender, in a setting where their gender is treated with respect, more preferable.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, I dunno.

Hey!
I like what they did with changing Divinity Original Sin's concept art to make the male and the female as equals.

I wish more games, nay, ALL games did the same. If the lady is skimpily dressed, make the man show skin too. Or, if you don't wanna do that, if the man is properly dressed, then make the lady properly dressed too.
 

Strazdas

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Is there space for women there? definitely. Are women a significant population of current AAA? no their not. I do not care what sex the other player is, i treat them the same and usually only find out their sex when they speak in teamspeak or ventrillo, and by that time we have already chatted some anyway. however it is simply inescapable truth that there are more men than women in tripleA gaming. It may change, it may not, personally, i do not care as i dont care what sex my opponents/teammates are.

As far as "huger games" of gaming? first of all please no that was an awful movie.
But im sure what you mean here is female protagonist. Well, game studios tried. the result was abusmal to nonexistent sales, massive loss and closing down of studios. whether it was the female protagonist or anything else within a game at fault is irrelevant, the thing is they wont try again. at least for some time. Naughty Dog is probably the only one that got away with it with Last of Us, and even then the main progonist was still male.



Phasmal said:
I don't really get that though.
What does pretending to be a woman do in the long run? Nothing. It doesn't do anything, or hurt anyone.
So it's not really a problem.

Mostly, on games that are more social, like with MMO's- if someone assumes I'm male, I just correct them and it's normally not a big thing. But they all start from the same assumption instead of just asking.
I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).

But yeah, in singleplayer games it wont hurt anyone of course. actually, i am currently playing a female character in oblivion. the reaosn i picked that is because i have never played one and wanted to see what it feels like.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]


Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.
You know how many times a guy has given me something for free on a game for being a girl?
Never. Not even once.
Unless you count all the free harassment and insults. Gee, guys, you shouldn't have.

I mean it, seriously, I've been all kinds of involved in all kinds of games and have never had someone just GIVE me something because I was female.
I know it sounds mad hence I posted a link to that Rant I wrote which included an experience when I was attacked for being sexist because I didn't help a female player kill a boss and didn't give her free stuff.

For a while in WOW I believe it was pretty common, at least for a short while.

Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
Now the idea of offering nudes is meant to work on the grounds of well it's showing some level of trust and intimacy as well you're talking to the person it's not just another set of boobs on google image search. You can put a name and personality to them........ Yeh I'm almost making it seem like guys care about more than boobs.
Ok if you're doing something just because some random username promised you nudes I am guessing you don't care about their personality. Or you would just do it for their personality.
Either way it's pretty dumb and I can't say I feel sorry for people who fall for it.
It is pretty dumb but again it really is an issue to an extent of exploiting the stupid . Gullible.

Rebel_Raven said:
The question should be though, should every game have to include a male / female option or does that detract from the story ?

Would playing college graduated explorer Larry Croft learning to survive and become a strong independent man on an island work so much as a story or does it being the female Lara Croft actually help the story ?

I'm not saying the option is always a bad thing but asking for all games to have it brings up the question of story etc. If it fits then sure but I really don't think it would always fit. A better option would be to see more games with female protagonists rather than trying to have gender options in every game.
 

Phasmal

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The_Kodu said:
I know it sounds mad hence I posted a link to that Rant I wrote which included an experience when I was attacked for being sexist because I didn't help a female player kill a boss and didn't give her free stuff.

For a while in WOW I believe it was pretty common, at least for a short while.
I read your link the first time- I just didn't have anything to say about it. The first experience was weird, sure.
Your second one, wasting time aruging with beggars will always end in an argument. How many guys have whispered me asking for free stuff? Plenty.
I just don't see either of those things as a reason to distrust, disbelieve or dislike people who identify as female.

I dunno, I played WoW for five years and I ONCE ran into someone ask that people go easy on their DPS because they were a girl. And that was the entirety of my negative experience with internet ladies.
Also no one gave me free stuff there either. I must have missed that phase.



The_Kodu said:
It is pretty dumb but again it really is an issue to an extent of exploiting the stupid . Gullible.
Yeah, but there are plenty of people who exploit the gullible in plenty of ways.
I remember making a threads, ages back, asking if people had pretended to be female. Many guys responded that they had.


Strazdas said:
I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).
TBH this sounds more like a dude problem than a lady problem, no offence.
I remember a while back playing a round of Trouble in Terrorist Town, and I'd found a `safe server` (a server I can use my real voice on without people being major fucktards), and mostly the guys there were being nice to me. One of them was talking to me a lot and then another player suddenly snapped angrily about how when a girl comes in everyone wants to talk to them all the time. I apologised if I was annoying them, and they stated it wasn't me who annoyed them, but everyone's reaction to me.
That was actually quite revealing.
I want it to be no big deal, playing games as me. I just don't know how to make everyone else see it as no big deal.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
I know it sounds mad hence I posted a link to that Rant I wrote which included an experience when I was attacked for being sexist because I didn't help a female player kill a boss and didn't give her free stuff.

For a while in WOW I believe it was pretty common, at least for a short while.
I read your link the first time- I just didn't have anything to say about it. The first experience was weird, sure.
Your second one, wasting time aruging with beggars will always end in an argument. How many guys have whispered me asking for free stuff? Plenty.
I just don't see either of those things as a reason to distrust, disbelieve or dislike people who identify as female.

I dunno, I played WoW for five years and I ONCE ran into someone ask that people go easy on their DPS because they were a girl. And that was the entirety of my negative experience with internet ladies.
Also no one gave me free stuff there either. I must have missed that phase.
I think the issue is if they announce it without a reason more than anything or that's brought up pretty quickly. Mainly due to the beggar attitude.


Maybe you didn't get free stuff because unlike some you have self respect and aren't trying to manipulate people.
Note: that applies to both genders who did it.


Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
It is pretty dumb but again it really is an issue to an extent of exploiting the stupid . Gullible.
Yeah, but there are plenty of people who exploit the gullible in plenty of ways.
I remember making a threads, ages back, asking if people had pretended to be female. Many guys responded that they had.
Case and point why people doubt it most of the time.
 

Phasmal

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The_Kodu said:
I think the issue is if they announce it without a reason more than anything or that's brought up pretty quickly. Mainly due to the beggar attitude.


Maybe you didn't get free stuff because unlike some you have self respect and aren't trying to manipulate people.
Note: that applies to both genders who did it.
So I guess you don't get stuff -just- for being a girl then.


The_Kodu said:
Case and point why people doubt it most of the time.
I dunno man, I am STILL not getting this as a big issue.
Either way, doubting people's self-expressed gender and autopenising just serves to make female gamers invisible and the ones who do identify `suspicious` thus causing women not to want to identify on games which I'm sure we can all agree is more shitty than some guy whispering you asking for free shit pretending to be a flirty girl.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
I think the issue is if they announce it without a reason more than anything or that's brought up pretty quickly. Mainly due to the beggar attitude.


Maybe you didn't get free stuff because unlike some you have self respect and aren't trying to manipulate people.
Note: that applies to both genders who did it.
So I guess you don't get stuff -just- for being a girl then.
Oh not it doesn't work if people know the person is a guy.

Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
Case and point why people doubt it most of the time.
I dunno man, I am STILL not getting this as a big issue.
Either way, doubting people's self-expressed gender and autopenising just serves to make female gamers invisible and the ones who do identify `suspicious` thus causing women not to want to identify on games which I'm sure we can all agree is more shitty than some guy whispering you asking for free shit pretending to be a flirty girl.
My guess is it depends how you come off and how you act more than anything as to if people are suspicious of you. Also if they have run into people begging etc and doing like I had happen them accusing me of sexism and trying to get the community to harass me off the game because I refused to fight a boss for them.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Of course there is. But the flaccid old men who control the AAA market don't think so, because teenaged boys give the most money, and teenaged boys are total cunts who think that women are just tits.
 

Rebel_Raven

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The_Kodu said:
Rebel_Raven said:
The question should be though, should every game have to include a male / female option or does that detract from the story ?

Would playing college graduated explorer Larry Croft learning to survive and become a strong independent man on an island work so much as a story or does it being the female Lara Croft actually help the story ?

I'm not saying the option is always a bad thing but asking for all games to have it brings up the question of story etc. If it fits then sure but I really don't think it would always fit. A better option would be to see more games with female protagonists rather than trying to have gender options in every game.
Of course not. I'm almost as against gender select in all games as anything else. Gender Select is almost always pointless beyond cosmetics in the long run, sometimes amusing, but assuredly not the answer 100% of the time.
Gender select almost always waters down a personality into something unisex, which is fine in doses, but as a norm? No thanks, as it does, indeed detract from the story fairly often.
We can have games where the protagonist is mono-gendered, or have games where you can select from a cast of characters with assorted genders, especially in the name of story/plot. In fact we should.

Few companies actually make one gender over the other matter. I think that's problematic.

Still, in story/plot shallow games like WWE games (*Mutters about restrictions for divas still existing*), and assorted sports games, and driving games, and so forth, gender select is more welcome than not.

Honestly, wouldn't Nathan Drake be the male equivalent to Lara Croft, anyhow? :p Or Whazzizname from Farcry 3?
Honestly, Larry Croft probably wouldn't make a huge difference from what I remember. Not a whole lot of the game revolved around Lara's gender. It's not like Lara got much of a relationship. Sure she had a crush on a guy, but nothing really came of it, and she sure as heck didn't act on it. Sure there was that QTS that sparked a rape controversy, but it wasn't near as bad as people thought.
Most games where you play as a woman, there's small odds of having a relationship anyhow. At least one as grand as Nathan Drake's, or Kratos', or most guys. Heck, even Bionic Commando had a closer relationship that I've seen in most games with women as playable characters go in terms of monogender protagonists.
Sure you can cite Mass effect, and Dragon Age, and the ilk but honestly it saved their butts as much as it was a good thing for femshep/Hawke players considering the hell Bioware would catch if only the male gender got romance options.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Rebel_Raven said:
Of course not. I'm almost as against gender select in all games as anything else. Gender Select is almost always pointless beyond cosmetics in the long run, sometimes amusing, but assuredly not the answer 100% of the time.
Gender select almost always waters down a personality into something unisex, which is fine in doses, but as a norm? No thanks, as it does, indeed detract from the story fairly often.
We can have games where the protagonist is mono-gendered, or have games where you can select from a cast of characters with assorted genders, especially in the name of story/plot. In fact we should.

Few companies actually make one gender over the other matter. I think that's problematic.

Still, in story/plot shallow games like WWE games (*Mutters about restrictions for divas still existing*), and assorted sports games, and driving games, and so forth, gender select is more welcome than not.

Honestly, wouldn't Nathan Drake be the male equivalent to Lara Croft, anyhow? :p Or Whazzizname from Farcry 3?
Honestly, Larry Croft probably wouldn't make a huge difference from what I remember. Not a whole lot of the game revolved around Lara's gender. It's not like Lara got much of a relationship. Sure she had a crush on a guy, but nothing really came of it, and she sure as heck didn't act on it. Sure there was that QTS that sparked a rape controversy, but it wasn't near as bad as people thought.
Not so much in the new Tomb raider where they tried to have a story such as the stuff about the deer etc. With Farcry 3 it was more "Privileged white dude gets shook out of comfortable life and learns he might be more of a killer that he though and ends up wondering if he can go back to normality"

Rebel_Raven said:
Most games where you play as a woman, there's small odds of having a relationship anyhow. At least one as grand as Nathan Drake's, or Kratos', or most guys. Heck, even Bionic Commando had a closer relationship that I've seen in most games with women as playable characters go in terms of monogender protagonists.
That's very true and honestly needs to be changed, infact the only one I know of is Remember Me which had the publishers trying to stop it. That is unless you could Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit)and I think there were romance options in Beyond Two souls and heavy rain (if very clunky because David cage)
 

Rebel_Raven

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The_Kodu said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Of course not. I'm almost as against gender select in all games as anything else. Gender Select is almost always pointless beyond cosmetics in the long run, sometimes amusing, but assuredly not the answer 100% of the time.
Gender select almost always waters down a personality into something unisex, which is fine in doses, but as a norm? No thanks, as it does, indeed detract from the story fairly often.
We can have games where the protagonist is mono-gendered, or have games where you can select from a cast of characters with assorted genders, especially in the name of story/plot. In fact we should.

Few companies actually make one gender over the other matter. I think that's problematic.

Still, in story/plot shallow games like WWE games (*Mutters about restrictions for divas still existing*), and assorted sports games, and driving games, and so forth, gender select is more welcome than not.

Honestly, wouldn't Nathan Drake be the male equivalent to Lara Croft, anyhow? :p Or Whazzizname from Farcry 3?
Honestly, Larry Croft probably wouldn't make a huge difference from what I remember. Not a whole lot of the game revolved around Lara's gender. It's not like Lara got much of a relationship. Sure she had a crush on a guy, but nothing really came of it, and she sure as heck didn't act on it. Sure there was that QTS that sparked a rape controversy, but it wasn't near as bad as people thought.
Not so much in the new Tomb raider where they tried to have a story such as the stuff about the deer etc. With Farcry 3 it was more "Privileged white dude gets shook out of comfortable life and learns he might be more of a killer that he though and ends up wondering if he can go back to normality"

Rebel_Raven said:
Most games where you play as a woman, there's small odds of having a relationship anyhow. At least one as grand as Nathan Drake's, or Kratos', or most guys. Heck, even Bionic Commando had a closer relationship that I've seen in most games with women as playable characters go in terms of monogender protagonists.
That's very true and honestly needs to be changed, infact the only one I know of is Remember Me which had the publishers trying to stop it. That is unless you could Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit)and I think there were romance options in Beyond Two souls and heavy rain (if very clunky because David cage)
I dunno, your farcry 3 synopsis syncs pretty well with Tomb Raider.
"Privileged white girl gets shook out of comfortable life and learns she might be more of a killer than she thought and ends up wondering if she can go back to normality"

Though, not much of a spoiler, here, since it's a prequel, but her decision is a resounding no, she can't go back to "normal."

In fact, I'm not entirely sure where your synopsis of FC3, and TR reboot differ. :p

Remember Me'd relationship -was- stopped. Nilin was supposed to kiss a guy. Never did. Never really got too close to any guy, really.

The love scene (where you only play as a guy, so it doesn't really count) in indigo prophecy still freaks me out, graphically.
Pretty sure B2S had a romance in it, and according to reports, it was indeed a jarring one. I can't say I played it yet since the female protagonist screaming/sobbing/crying for help while I failed to figure out a puzzle as Aiden was quite the turn off. I never could stand such a thing. It killed my desire to play an old spiderman game, and damn near did in fable.

I wholeheartedly agree the lack of romance for female protagonists needs to change.
 

Strazdas

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Phasmal said:
Strazdas said:
I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).
TBH this sounds more like a dude problem than a lady problem, no offence.
I remember a while back playing a round of Trouble in Terrorist Town, and I'd found a `safe server` (a server I can use my real voice on without people being major fucktards), and mostly the guys there were being nice to me. One of them was talking to me a lot and then another player suddenly snapped angrily about how when a girl comes in everyone wants to talk to them all the time. I apologised if I was annoying them, and they stated it wasn't me who annoyed them, but everyone's reaction to me.
That was actually quite revealing.
I want it to be no big deal, playing games as me. I just don't know how to make everyone else see it as no big deal.
I agree its a male problem here, was merely pointing out what they could be gaining from pretending to be female, since you asked. Personally i treat both sexes the same. as far as im concerned there are no males and females on the internet, there are people.
I too have observed however how a female in a group can attract attention to the point of making others uncomfortable. it is not her fault (most of the time anyway, i saw some that was really asking for it). This is usually due to the effect of females being rare in these places and people treating it like some rare event that "a female has came". which i find silly but they still exist.
 

Phasmal

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Strazdas said:
I agree its a male problem here, was merely pointing out what they could be gaining from pretending to be female, since you asked. Personally i treat both sexes the same. as far as im concerned there are no males and females on the internet, there are people.
I too have observed however how a female in a group can attract attention to the point of making others uncomfortable. it is not her fault (most of the time anyway, i saw some that was really asking for it). This is usually due to the effect of females being rare in these places and people treating it like some rare event that "a female has came". which i find silly but they still exist.
I understand the basic principle of it. It still confuses me though.
I have no idea how people go about it.
I mean, if it was as easy as going `I am girl- give me thing` I would have probably done it because scrubs who fall for that don't deserve their stuff. :D

I mean it sounds so obviously like a scam I have no idea how anyone falls for it. So there should be no reason to distrust someone saying they are female unless maybe they are asking for all your stuff in the same breath.

Guys who treat me as just another gamer are the best. I like the guys to be impressed by my mad skillz, not my gender. ;)
I think doing what you and that guy I gamed with do is best, just call out dudes for freaking out that a girl is playing, cause it's silly.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
You're excused.

Also, feel free to market western games to their women and see how it'll do.
Sarcasm aside, my thoughts was more on the western-type market, North America, Europe, the occasional aussie and so on.

If you have an argument to make, I'd be happy to hear it out.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?
 

Dragonbums

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FieryTrainwreck said:
I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?

That's quite a big misrepresentation of the argument you've got there haven't you?
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Smilomaniac said:
You didn't hear? It is the sworn duty of privately owned and funded companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars catering to unproven markets. And if those markets don't even exist? Those same companies should be creating them out of thin air. Because equality.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Dragonbums said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?

That's quite a big misrepresentation of the argument you've got there haven't you?
When do we arrive at a suitable state? Who decides what that is? How do we get there?

The issue with this issue is that there is no acceptable mechanism for bringing about the "change" some people insist must happen. There isn't a big market for AAA games at women - not that we've seen. If one potentially exists, whose job is it to tap that market? Bearing in mind that a AAA production requires tens of millions of dollars, who exactly is going to make that leap or take that risk? Why should they? And what it it turns out there simply is no market? Is it suddenly incumbent upon the game makers to forcibly create it?

Do people even realize how AAA development works? When you're aiming for maximum profit, there is ONE target demographic - whichever demo makes you the most money when you succeed. Period. If it weren't young white men... it would be some other demo. And then EVERY game would target that demo. Games aren't made in aggregate. The publishers aren't a bunch of buddies working together to cover all of the available bases. They're aiming for the top spot, each and every one.

I guess I resent the notion that we have a representation issue in AAA gaming. It's an assertion that fundamentally misunderstands the reality of what is happening. And it's not sexism or racism or anything remotely of the sort. It's targeted development based on raw facts and figures. If you want them to aim for another demo, change everything else in the world to make another demo the most profitable for targeting... and then watch as that demo takes over just the same.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
You're excused.

Also, feel free to market western games to their women and see how it'll do.
Sarcasm aside, my thoughts was more on the western-type market, North America, Europe, the occasional aussie and so on.

If you have an argument to make, I'd be happy to hear it out.

Just like many people don't "get" Japanese videogames, well, a lot of Japanese players don't get our videogames. It makes sense and makes me wonder what point you were exactly trying to make.

Still, Japan has a big market of girls-oriented videogames, and on top of that, most of Japanese videogames of all kind contain some form of eyecandy for the ladies together with the eyecandy for the guys.

Ignoring the entire Asian market just to prove that companies don't make high quality videogames aimed at ladies (or, much more importantly, that take also female players and not only male players into account) seems quite wrong. I disproved your point by demonstrating the Japanese market can make money out of marketing videogames to ladies: we Western people could do that too if only we weren't culturally bound to ignore female sexuality.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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AAA are definitely more averse to risk, and while you say women detracting from the potential market is a point for more gender equality in games, I hate that attitude in regards to many other things in gaming, that you should aim to please everyone and go for the largest possible market. Instead I propose that they are already part of the gaming constituency of many games and would just be appreciative of better female characters and less fanservice. They're not an untapped market, they're playing the same games anyone would play and have the same range of tastes, but don't get the same experience because those games are made with guys mainly in mind, and most of the things that frustrate them - walking boobs characters, for instance - I would happily see gone in place of better characters. I do not however think male characters have it any better in general, for a host of reasons. But at the end of the day I think the kind of game I would think excellent doesn't need to include the things that detract from it for most female gamers. And I do think most female gamers realise the shallowness of male characters as well, and don't necessarily subscribe to the "everything is sexist" mentality. Then again, I don't have proof for or against that either.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
You're excused.

Also, feel free to market western games to their women and see how it'll do.
Sarcasm aside, my thoughts was more on the western-type market, North America, Europe, the occasional aussie and so on.

If you have an argument to make, I'd be happy to hear it out.

Just like many people don't "get" Japanese videogames, well, a lot of Japanese players don't get our videogames. It makes sense and makes me wonder what point you were exactly trying to make.

Still, Japan has a big market of girls-oriented videogames, and on top of that, most of Japanese videogames of all kind contain some form of eyecandy for the ladies together with the eyecandy for the guys.

Ignoring the entire Asian market just to prove that companies don't make high quality videogames aimed at ladies (or, much more importantly, that take also female players and not only male players into account) seems quite wrong. I disproved your point by demonstrating the Japanese market can make money out of marketing videogames to ladies: we Western people could do that too if only we weren't culturally bound to ignore female sexuality.
You're not making a lot of sense. The reason I sarcasticly said to try to market western triple A in Japan was precisely because they have a different sense of aesthetics and values, which you're now trying to somehow use as an argument yourself, rendering your own point useless. It's a different market and it's a comparatively small one when the markets we're talking about are the combined western cultures.
And by the way, since when is Japan "the entire Asian market"? South Korea is just as dedicated, if not more, to games and are far more inclined to play western games. Furthermore, you're not disproving anything I've said, because I stated an opinion, not a fact, to which you responded with a flippant and frankly useless one liner.

Saying that they can do it and so should we, is not a wellmade argument. We can agree on a lot of things about how the state of affairs should be, but that doesn't magically make it so. You're not going to change things by responding sourly to how I think things are.
If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?

I'm not hearing any sound reasoning here.
 

Dragonbums

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FieryTrainwreck said:
When do we arrive at a suitable state?
That's putting the cart before the horse isn't it? I wasn't aware there was a "suitable" state for equal representation. Honestly though it seems that the only people worried about this are simply those who fear that they may have just as much representation as minority groups beforehand. Of course, it's not like we even made any progress to begin with so that question is null.




Who decides what that is? How do we get there?
Nobody decides this. Like, what, do you expect us to enforce this? Us whining on internet forum boards is enough to get people crying "CENSORSHIP!" When the devs are literally under no obligation to even listen to us in the first place. As for how do we get there...really now. Is that honestly a question need asking?

The issue with this issue is that there is no acceptable mechanism for bringing about the "change" some people insist must happen.
What mechanism. You literally add in more minority characters, or women who aren't just meant to sexually appeal to men and actually have a fucking purpose in the game. Games in the past have done this. And the only "insisting" we do is that if the gaming medium actually wants to expand they are going to have to touch upon different demographics eventually. Or they can be like the comics industry is right now. Where the demographic they've pandered to for so long is dwindling and they can't seem to capture they new audience.


There isn't a big market for AAA games at women - not that we've seen.
Well yeah. Something can't exist if nobody has ever tried it before. What are we supposed to do about it?


If one potentially exists, whose job is it to tap that market?
I would assume the companies that make videogames and the ones who want to grab that untouched, non competitive market.



Bearing in mind that a AAA production requires tens of millions of dollars, who exactly is going to make that leap or take that risk?
Well that's not exactly our fault is it? They don't have to make games for $10 million dollars. Granted that such a budget in and of itself is already problematic for even regular AAA games. They can very easily put aside a tiny but reasonable budget to a new team to work on experimental games and see if it works. It worked swimmingly for Square Enix and Bravely Default. I'm not exactly sure why this wouldn't work for a company that has hundreds of millions of dollars.


And what it it turns out there simply is no market?
There is a market for everything. However those markets don't just come out over night. It's something that needs to be cultivated and harnessed until it becomes real money making machine.

Things like the Wii's "Lighting in a bottle" demographic don't happen to everyone.


Is it suddenly incumbent upon the game makers to forcibly create it?
How are we forcing game creators to make these games? They must have really weak minds if complaining on forums really has that big of an impact on them.

Do people even realize how AAA development works?
So what? That doesn't absolve our rights to complain about it.




When you're aiming for maximum profit, there is ONE target demographic - whichever demo makes you the most money when you succeed. Period.
I guess you should head on over and take a look at Jim's "Pastas not Pasta" video.

There is never one demographic. There are multiple demographics.

You have some people who like "Slice of Life games". Animal Crossing sells gangbusters with this demographic (that also has a lot of women playing it. Go figure)


Others love JRPG's- Bravely Default is selling Gangbusters with this game (also another genre that tends to have a sizeable female fanbase. Goooo figure)

I can go on honestly. That there already is two demographics. Not one. And it seems that the mentality of "maximizing profits" with only one demographic has seen companies shut down faster than it's ever been before. That "One" demographic is over saturated. With dozens more people having money in their wallets just waiting for a game to come out for them.



If it weren't young white men... it would be some other demo. And then EVERY game would target that demo.
Yeah, and the same crap would happen again. The thing is, videogames is an entertainment medium. Entertainment mediums get nowhere catering to one very specific group of people. That's why they are stagnating now. And regardless of if it were the opposite the same thing would happen. Why do you think the indie scene blew up like it did? There were literal millions of dollars laying on the ground for games nobody made and they were the ones that scooped it up.



The publishers aren't a bunch of buddies working together to cover all of the available bases. They're aiming for the top spot, each and every one.
Not all of them are aiming for the top spot. Some of them just want to make good fucking games. And honestly, that's how a lot of game studios and publishers started out as.

Dark Souls wasn't aiming for the top spot of anything. They just wanting to make 2 million dollars in sales. that's not top. That's the fucking bottom in terms of AAA releases.

I guess I resent the notion that we have a representation issue in AAA gaming. It's an assertion that fundamentally misunderstands the reality of what is happening. And it's not sexism or racism or anything remotely of the sort. It's targeted development based on raw facts and figures. If you want them to aim for another demo, change everything else in the world to make another demo the most profitable for targeting... and then watch as that demo takes over just the same.
So you don't like it because it may or may not hurt business? Why don't you come over to the other side of the pond and understand how it even feels to be at the bottom of representation of practically everything around you.

I couldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. And consumers shouldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. The only thing I care about is me having $60.00 and not really using it because a game I really would like to happen doesn't happen.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
You're not making a lot of sense. The reason I sarcasticly said to try to market western triple A in Japan was precisely because they have a different sense of aesthetics and values, which you're now trying to somehow use as an argument yourself, rendering your own point useless. It's a different market and it's a comparatively small one when the markets we're talking about are the combined western cultures.
And by the way, since when is Japan "the entire Asian market"? South Korea is just as dedicated, if not more, to games and are far more inclined to play western games. Furthermore, you're not disproving anything I've said, because I stated an opinion, not a fact, to which you responded with a flippant and frankly useless one liner.

Saying that they can do it and so should we, is not a wellmade argument. We can agree on a lot of things about how the state of affairs should be, but that doesn't magically make it so. You're not going to change things by responding sourly to how I think things are.
If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?

I'm not hearing any sound reasoning here.


Frankly, I'm tempted to drop the discussion whenever someone says "Japan is a sexually repressed country". As someone with an university degree in Japanese language and culture, let me tell you, it angers me more than it would a Japanese to hear racist idiocies like that. (Mostly because a Japanese wouldn't be offended - they'd snicker and shake their head as they think foreigners can't understand their culture, so anything a foreigner assumes about Japan doesn't matter.)

This "sexually repressed country" is the only country in which, as I mentioned before, videogames aimed at females exist. This "sexually repressed country" is the only country in which a male protagonist can be sexy without the videogame being considered "gay".
And that's only to bring examples related to videogames.

Japan isn't better than any other country. When you study foreign cultures, you learn that it is always wrong to assume "X country is better than Y country". Why, I personally don't like America, and yet I understand the many good things that country has.

So, Japan is not better than any other place. But what you are saying is that Japan is worse, and that, my friend, is pure racism. Don't judge other cultures like that.



Back on the original topic of discussion, what you said is that "there is no place for AAA games for women", which, being a woman myself, I find... another offensive thing. Probably I'm far too easily offended, I guess, but you did manage to irk me twice with your statements.
Let me recap our discussion to see if I got it right.
I said "if there's no place for AAA games for women, why do Japan and Asia have those?" you replied "Well I was talking of Western games".
I said "but if Asian games can do that, then Western games can too" to which you replied "No, Western games can't be aimed at women because it's a different culture. Also, Japan is sexually repressed!". So, it's sexually repressed because it recognizes there is such a thing as female sexuality... something our liberal, sexually free Western countries still can't do if not in the form of stuff like Twilight?


Long story short: there IS place for AAA games for women. This is my point.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
...we'll just ignore their lowest childbirth rate ever (in the world) and the fact that their government has to encourage people to date. And of course their immensely high suicide rate has nothing to do with social culture/issues in general. Nah, it's all fine and dandy.
Of course, now that you've pegged me as a racist (and most likely a sexist), nothing I say or do can possibly be remotely true and are only based in my vile prejudicial nature. Oh woe is me. How will I ever be a good enough person to debate on your level.

Despite the entire Japanese population snickering at my gaijin foolishness, I will however attempt to review your argument.

Your reasoning is because one country in the world has managed to produce triple A games to a female audience (despite lack of examples of said games, sold amount or demographic size), is that it should be possible in the rest of the world. I do not dispute that possibility because I have never even heard of these games, but I trust you're not lying to me, or worse, don't know what you're talking about.
I do know that Japan has a large population, so it's not completely unreasonable to imagine that these games have a massive budget and revenue akin to western triple A games sold across the globe (western triple A being the underlying topic of the thread, because that's where we're from and the games we mainly play - I assume).

So the logic is, because Japan has a market, obviously the rest of the world has it as well and it's just not exploited yet.

Nope, can't see any faults in any of it. You're right and I'm just a racist that can't see how women could possibly want games. Now that you've wowed me with your factual reasoning and shamed me and my ways, I must go and never return to these forums.

...

Honestly though, it's not that I don't see your point, I just don't see it as a reasonable one, especially when you're being hostile about it. This isn't about justice or equality, it's the simple fact that western studios won't take the risk of trying to find this market, when they already have several others that work.
As for my personal opinion on the matter, I don't think there's a pre-established audience. I sincerely don't think there's enough people out there interested in a game catering to them, that it warrants the entire industry to change the way they make games.

I think if you crowdfunded a game with overt intentions of marketing a game for women, that it'd kick off and get a lot of money. Then maybe a few more and from there, when it's been done, there might be an actual market because you've garnered enough interest or it'll die out because there are more people who say they want these games, than they actually want them.

Either way, I'm just expressing my opinion, because at the end of the day I honestly don't care what happens. I've lost so much sympathy for the "cause" because of the way people go about promoting it - by bullying, shaming and guilting.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
...we'll just ignore their lowest childbirth rate ever (in the world) and the fact that their government has to encourage people to date. And of course their immensely high suicide rate has nothing to do with social culture/issues in general. Nah, it's all fine and dandy.
Of course, now that you've pegged me as a racist (and most likely a sexist), nothing I say or do can possibly be remotely true and are only based in my vile prejudicial nature. Oh woe is me. How will I ever be a good enough person to debate on your level.

And so by your same logic, all Americans are stupid, ignorant, fat, warmongering self-centered jerks? Because hey, that's what I would judge from the news.

And what next? All of Islam hates women? All Chinese people are good at maths? Black people are savage?


Just a suggestion, if you'll accept that: when you make statements such as "Japan is sexist", "there is no market for AAA games for women because I say so (and I'm probably a male)".... it's not like you're a poor victim of people being so aggressive towards you that you can't defend a good position. No, it's that you're saying offensive things that in turn make people answer aggressively to you.

Then again, if someone is expressing strong racist prejudices towards a country, it becomes very difficult to me to listen to anything this person has to say.

By the way, if you really need me to provide examples of my point about how Japan considers female sexuality in their videogames, I'm assuming you've never played a Japanese videogame ever.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
And so by your same logic, all Americans are stupid, ignorant, fat, warmongering self-centered jerks? Because hey, that's what I would judge from the news.

And what next? All of Islam hates women? All Chinese people are good at maths? Black people are savage?


Just a suggestion, if you'll accept that: when you make statements such as "Japan is sexist", "there is no market for AAA games for women because I say so (and I'm probably a male)".... it's not like you're a poor victim of people being so aggressive towards you that you can't defend a good position. No, it's that you're saying offensive things that in turn make people answer aggressively to you.

Then again, if someone is expressing strong racist prejudices towards a country, it becomes very difficult to me to listen to anything this person has to say.

By the way, if you really need me to provide examples of my point about how Japan considers female sexuality in their videogames, I'm assuming you've never played a Japanese videogame ever.
At no point did I say Japan is sexist - I said trying to emulate their culture won't benefit gender equality in ours.
Also, I did not claim that there was no market - only that it's my opinion that it's an economical detriment to try to explore it. Because I say that I think there isn't one, it doesn't mean there isn't, that it's fact or that you have to take it as granted.

You're just putting words in my mouth because you're pissed off, for no fucking eligible reason that I can think of other than not agreeing with you. I'm not the one randomly accusing people and labeling them. Read your own comments and see where you took down this discussion, before you keep pissing on random people you don't know. I don't want or need your sympathy, I'd just prefer to see you behave like a decent person rather than a bratty nuisance.

Also, I'm not the one who turned the discussion over to a market on the other side of the world that has no relation to the topic at hand, so it's not my responsibility to find examples for you - factual examples that clearly indicate whether or not what you say might have any value or merit in this discussion. Do your own fucking work.

I couldn't give less of a shit of how Japanese developers handle sexuality, because that's only a tiny part of what a game catering to women might contain: It's possibly the worst argument you've made so far. If you want to give an example of something, find a game that sold well to women, show me the figures, the development cost and revenue and then we have an actual basis for the debate of whether or not it's already been done and might be a good idea to influence western markets with.

Unless of course you just want to keep insulting me - go ahead, keep demonstrating what a superior human being you are.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
At no point did I say Japan is sexist - I said trying to emulate their culture won't benefit gender equality in ours.

What?

"If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?"

Well you got a point: you didn't call Japan sexist yet, you called it sexually repressed. Funny, seeing how from an Asian's point of view, it's OUR culture that is sexually repressive. Which culture is the one who doesn't want female protagonists? Ours. Which culture is the one whose leading religion shamed sexuality? Ours. Which culture is the one who doesn't want overtly sexy male protagonists? Ours.
But wait. I could say the exact opposite too. Which culture has a problem with groping on trains? Japan. Which culture censors genitalia in porn? Japan. Which culture partially still sees women as being housewives? Japan.

Do you understand the point I am making here? I could make Japan look like the most sexually repressed country ever, or I could make Western countries look like they've got the worst problems with sexuality. Does this mean it's all true? Then what, all countries are hyper-repressed? Or could it be... that it all depends on the informations you want to show?

If you're saying Japan is the most sexually repressed country ever, allow me to conclude that you are being racist and you're also showing you don't know much about Japan except the news that Western media tell you.









I couldn't give less of a shit of how Japanese developers handle sexuality, because that's only a tiny part of what a game catering to women might contain: It's possibly the worst argument you've made so far.

Are you saying that since it's Japan, we shouldn't care?

I disagree. Human beings are human beings. The reason Japanese anime became so popular among Western teens is because, despite the extremely different culture, there's something they can all like as human beings.
The same thing applies with games for women. Let's look at Japan for an idea of how to make games that appeal also to women, and then of course, let's change it to fit our culture.


As for the example, I won't mention girls-oriented videogames. I could do that, as I love those games, but they're so far oriented towards females, that a male can't possibly find them appealing.

I will instead mention games aimed at everyone, that still appealed ALSO to girls.







The list could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

Look at the examples I brought: not games aimed solely at girls - they're awesome, but they're not what I want Western audience to try yet (they couldn't).
The examples I brought are games for males and very popular among males.... that are also popular among girls because there's stuff they might like that doesn't make them feel excluded.


Does only Japan do this awesome thing of making videogames appealing to both genders?
Well, not always.
Bioware's rpg are very popular among the girls because they can make a female protagonist and date pretty and interesting boys: it's not about having some pointless virtual dating part, but it's about making the ladies feel this game caters to them too.
Nathan Drake is quite handsome and sexy: when I discovered Uncharted's writer was a woman, it all suddenly made sense.
Beyond Two Souls made all players happy: attractive female heroine to look at, but also dating guys if you'd like and well, the very fact being a female protagonist that doesn't wear slutty attire.

We're certainly not inferior to Japan, because as I said all countries are different but no country is inferior. So if Japan can make videogames that feel appealing to women, the three examples of Western games I mentioned show that we can do just that, too. In our own way.
 

Vrach

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To turn your post upside-down a bit:

Andrew Siribohdi said:
In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics).
Andrew Siribohdi said:
"that's what social gaming is for"
If you're willing to make the generalization for the sake of argument that women enjoy romantic comedies, then why push away the idea of "that's what social gaming's for"? I'm not making this argument myself mind you, just saying, if your idea of making "games for women" is to be analogous to the movies, then social games hold up just as well, if not better, than most romantic comedies.

That said, most content can be enjoyed by both sexes, it's just that both of them have certain preferences, in general (and even more so depending on the person obviously). The market is leaning towards making games for men/boys, because that's the larger part of their demographic (at least from what I've seen personally - I know a number of women who play games, but that number doesn't even begin to compare to the amount of male gamers; yes, I've seen all the "50% gamers are girls" surveys and articles, but I'm just not seeing that myself [unless you count social gaming of course, which I'm not scoffing at, but I don't think that's the subject at hand here], not that I have anything against the concept).

As for what it takes to get women to enjoy a game... I can't tell. My first thought would be "less violence, more story", but then again, most girls I know who've played any "real" games (ie. not Facebook/phone games) tend to love stuff like Mortal Combat and scoff at games with story in them. Maybe it's because the stories are not as good as in other media (let's be honest here, we're just not there yet when compared to movies/books), but what I mostly see is impatience. I think the time commitment of games is what puts off most women. What we consider a good story is generally a 30+ hour experience, most of which is spent in some form of combat gameplay.

In fact, there may be something to that. Don't get me wrong, I know a few girls who are as much of gamers as any men, but they're in the minority. The rest however, generally want something they can play for as long as they want and then put it down. Mario, Mortal Combat, even stuff like Counter Strike. The best thing I can think of is that they're not willing to put time in a game with a story, because that story is a few hours long (if that) and the rest is gameplay which just doesn't appeal to most of them. Boys like fighting more than girls, I think that's a fair generalization if there ever was one.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Dragonbums, mine was a fairly hyper aggressive response here. Sorry. I don't mean to come off like a raving lunatic. These discussions are a little predictable, and that can obviously generate frustration. I'm not going to run through and tone everything down. I'm just going to ask your forgiveness if the following stuff is too confrontational or pissy. Wasn't intentional.

Dragonbums said:
That's putting the cart before the horse isn't it? I wasn't aware there was a "suitable" state for equal representation. Honestly though it seems that the only people worried about this are simply those who fear that they may have just as much representation as minority groups beforehand. Of course, it's not like we even made any progress to begin with so that question is null.
I'm not worried about. I'm tired of fucking hearing about it. And yeah, I could just flee every single goddamn video game forum in existence and never see it again, but I think I'm also within my rights to address the conversation head on - as pointless, useless, and intellectually infuriating.


Nobody decides this. Like, what, do you expect us to enforce this? Us whining on internet forum boards is enough to get people crying "CENSORSHIP!" When the devs are literally under no obligation to even listen to us in the first place.
I completely fucking expect "you" (if you're included) to "enforce" this if enforcing it means speaking with your wallet instead of running your mouth for the umpteenth time in the same ineffectual place and pattern. Step up and make the games you want to see made. Don't expect private investors to roll the dice with tens of millions of dollars to appease a market that might not fucking exist. At the very least, get out and stump for the games doing it right... and realize that if you and people with similar points of view can't actually make such games financially viable, there might be a real and equally viable reason for it.

What mechanism. You literally add in more minority characters, or women who aren't just meant to sexually appeal to men and actually have a fucking purpose in the game. Games in the past have done this.
Games in the past have absolutely done this. And they didn't make more money. They didn't tap into new markets. That's why it's not common practice. The publishers aren't "scared old white men afraid to make more money". It's a fucking ludicrous assumption or implication right on its face. It's no different than decrying the gender wage gap out one side of your mouth while denouncing the unfettered greed of capitalism and the free market from the other. That corporations will do anything for a buck AND fail to capitalize on new markets seem mutually exclusive to me. You'd need old school sexist/racist people at the top of those trees, and if you haven't noticed? Those folks are getting bounced hard these days by share-holders, board members, anyone who cares exclusively about the bottom line.


And the only "insisting" we do is that if the gaming medium actually wants to expand they are going to have to touch upon different demographics eventually. Or they can be like the comics industry is right now. Where the demographic they've pandered to for so long is dwindling and they can't seem to capture they new audience.
Can gaming as a whole expand? Abso-fucking-lutely. But that's not Capcom's job. Or Sony's. Or any existing dev's. If you want the industry to actually grow (rather than, you know, SHIFT), we need new developers and studios, new investors. People willing to put up their own time and capital to accomplish what they feel needs to be accomplished. Instead we have endless hand-wringing and faux-journalistic bullshit aimed at shaming or otherwise altering the behavior of current publishers and devs. And that's bullshit.


Well yeah. Something can't exist if nobody has ever tried it before. What are we supposed to do about it?
Make it yourself, create a huge uproar on those rare occasions where it does happen, or accept that it's not up to privately owned companies to risk tens of millions of dollars to maybe prove to the world that a certain market might conceivably exist. Based largely, of course, on the say so of runaway internet gender equality ideology.


I would assume the companies that make videogames and the ones who want to grab that untouched, non competitive market.
First of all, it's not a privately owned (or more accurately, any company that isn't funded with taxpayer money) company's job to do anything it doesn't decide to do. It's not up toe Jaguar to satiate the compact economy market. It's not up to McDonald's to deliver $100 steak. If a company doesn't want to make money doing something, they don't have to.

That said... you assure me this is fertile ground? That they can release a AAA game aimed at, say, women, and the rewards will be substantial as well as virtually guaranteed? Strange, though... why aren't you trying to tap that market? Why aren't the Anita Sarkeesians of the world turning their media might and considerable fund-raising ability towards correcting the perceived imbalances in representation and treatment with their own productions? Why is the only answer "complain loudly and unceasingly until maybe the thing I want to happen happens"?



Well that's not exactly our fault is it? They don't have to make games for $10 million dollars. Granted that such a budget in and of itself is already problematic for even regular AAA games. They can very easily put aside a tiny but reasonable budget to a new team to work on experimental games and see if it works. It worked swimmingly for Square Enix and Bravely Default. I'm not exactly sure why this wouldn't work for a company that has hundreds of millions of dollars.
So now we're switching the argument to a general admonishing of the AAA development strategy, which everyone already knows to be horseshit. When you step outside of AAA, guess what happens? Minority and female representation! Better writing! More attention to character and variety! It's a conflation of separate issues. I detest AAA gaming, by in large, because it is idiotic. I want smarter, more complicated fare. But you know what? I realize I'm not a big enough potential market for some company to spend ~100 million targeting. You know how I solve this problem? I buy the games that interest me and ignore the ones that don't. What I don't do is complain about a lack of representation of my personal interests in AAA gaming when I understand perfectly why it is so.


There is a market for everything. However those markets don't just come out over night. It's something that needs to be cultivated and harnessed until it becomes real money making machine.
You're talking about creating markets. Spend enough on advertising and hype, you can sell practically anything to anyone. Is that what we're really advocating here, though? That the AAA publishers should just keep throwing money at alternative markets until they eventually become profitable? When their margins are already thin and most of them are already dying or gone? Feel free to go present this idea at the next board meeting and see what happens. You'll be laughed out of the room. And not by racists or sexists, but by intelligent, reasoned business people who know what the fuck they're doing. With respect to making money, anyways. Just not with respect to your or my idea of the gaming industry.


How are we forcing game creators to make these games? They must have really weak minds if complaining on forums really has that big of an impact on them.
Pronoun confusion on this one; I was asking if it their job to force the existence of such markets. It is obviously within their power to do so, but are the markets legitimate if they must be coerced? Is there a generation of young women waiting patiently for "their games"? Or do they simply, on a large enough scale, not give a shit about games? And is that a bad thing that must be corrected or just "a thing"?

So what? That doesn't absolve our rights to complain about it.
Knowing how AAA gaming works doesn't change the fact that you're allowed to complain about it? Can't argue with that. You get mad at gravity, too?

I guess you should head on over and take a look at Jim's "Pastas not Pasta" video.

There is never one demographic. There are multiple demographics.

You have some people who like "Slice of Life games". Animal Crossing sells gangbusters with this demographic (that also has a lot of women playing it. Go figure)


Others love JRPG's- Bravely Default is selling Gangbusters with this game (also another genre that tends to have a sizeable female fanbase. Goooo figure)

I can go on honestly. That there already is two demographics. Not one. And it seems that the mentality of "maximizing profits" with only one demographic has seen companies shut down faster than it's ever been before. That "One" demographic is over saturated. With dozens more people having money in their wallets just waiting for a game to come out for them.
I very carefully said "maximizing profits". And of course it's a bad business strategy for long-term growth/success. But that doesn't make it a moral or social issue, which is what virtually all of these threads assume. People doing stupid shit with their money has always been a thing and always will be a thing. If it's a free market situation with literally no one getting legitimately hurt, you just let them piss away their money. Something else will take their place - if they should even exist in the first place. Play the other games. Play the indies. Let AAA gaming die because it's inefficient and unsustainable - NOT because it is sexists or racist. Because it isn't. It's just stupid.

Yeah, and the same crap would happen again. The thing is, videogames is an entertainment medium. Entertainment mediums get nowhere catering to one very specific group of people. That's why they are stagnating now. And regardless of if it were the opposite the same thing would happen. Why do you think the indie scene blew up like it did? There were literal millions of dollars laying on the ground for games nobody made and they were the ones that scooped it up.
EXACTLY correct. Video games is an entertainment medium. It's not the public sector. It's not government work. It's not a utility, a necessity, or a fact of life. As such, this is one arena where the free market should be allowed to do its thing. If a person believes there is room for AAA games aimed at minorities or women, that person is free to make it a reality through actual labor and risking of assets. Of course, he or she is also free to attempt to make it a reality through constant complaining and shaming of others. This does, however, make said person a giant fucking twat deserving of no one's respect.



Not all of them are aiming for the top spot. Some of them just want to make good fucking games. And honestly, that's how a lot of game studios and publishers started out as.

Dark Souls wasn't aiming for the top spot of anything. They just wanting to make 2 million dollars in sales. that's not top. That's the fucking bottom in terms of AAA releases.
What is your point here? The ones who aren't "doing it right" in terms of representation are absolutely the ones aiming for the top spot. The ones who aren't aiming for the top spot aren't handcuffed into "doing it wrong". You're talking about two different groups of publishers/developers here.

So you don't like it because it may or may not hurt business? Why don't you come over to the other side of the pond and understand how it even feels to be at the bottom of representation of practically everything around you.

I couldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. And consumers shouldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. The only thing I care about is me having $60.00 and not really using it because a game I really would like to happen doesn't happen.
Or you could shove your assumptions about who you think I am and realize that someone who is every bit as shafted by the AAA gaming industry as yourself (if for entirely different reasons) can still be rational about the reasons why things are the way they are. You want a certain sort of AAA game that doesn't exist, yes? Maybe, based on your stringent participation in this discussion, you want a game with more minority or female representation or higher quality representations of the same. Unfortunately, a very, very small percentage of games give you this. Me? I want games that challenge my preconceived notions about narrative and gameplay, that subvert my expectations in clever and impressive ways. Guess what? They don't make my games either. And they probably shouldn't. Because there aren't enough people who share my expectations and interests to make a $20 million gamble worthwhile.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
The term AAA comes from credit. The safest (and thus least risky) bonds are AAA.
When companies looked for financing of big budget games they had to sell the idea of why they should be invested in to investors. They coined the term AAA games, invoking the idea that they were the safest return on investment for games you could get.

So I'd say, yes. Yes AAA games are adverse to risk.
It's not where the passion is. It's not where the bold experiments are taking place. It's where gameswith proven structure, proven gameplay and proven demand is. Since it's proven, you know that it's not going to be very original or groundbreaking.

And the demand for female protagonists in for example shooters or female football hasn't been proven as far as I know.

AAA will give you exactly what the people as a mass bought yesterday. If multiple indy games that could work as a big AAA game did amazingly well in online marketplaces and had only female protagonists, then AAA games would follow. If you believe the demand to be there, make yourself rich and make that game.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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of course, but AAA games and gaming in general still have this really archaic, backward boys club mentality. They seem to have trouble admitting women EXIST let alone that they're suitable for being protagonists or major supporting characters. Not just on the executive side either as a lot of dev teams seems to be comprised of the white, privileged, male demographic thus they make games for the same demographic, thus effectively themselves. And on the gamers side of things one need only see the reaction towards that ESA survey revealing that nearly 50% of gamers are women (one of worst examples of this being the comments section on Bob's Game Overthinker video on the matter (though admittedly Bob seems to get the WORST trolls on the internet in regards to that; seriously, cowardly chauvanists everywhere it seems). But anyway, there is room, but we're gonna have to tear the boys club down first. And the people who refuse to have it torn down are either going to be dragged kicking and screaming or left behind. Probably the latter as usually is the case.
 

Eve Charm

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I highly doubt Otome are reaching AAA status in Japan or their respective country, While the only thing that seems to come out of it to the west is an Hakuoki otome and kinda fate stay. I'd say Tokimeki Memorial might me the most noticeable one but I doubt you'd get more then 1 person out of 1000 to know what it is on the other side of the world. Things that are Huge in a part of a world do tend to travel.

Anyway the funny thing seems to be is AAA is doing the best it can do to capture women gamers... At least on the western side of things. Using dragonburns's examples why do games like Animal crossing, Bravely default, games marketed to everyone or the male audience 14-35 (but still be inviting to females)) get a female following but games trying to go for it like Remember me, Beyond two souls get noses turned up at it.

It's like you can lead of horse to water but can't make it drink. I'd put money down that the next call of duty game would have an higher female to male ratio then the next beyond good and evil or mirrors edge would if we could get those numbers in the west.
 

carnex

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Again with 50% (and it not 50% even if it's close) and the misrepresentation of the facts (rather leaving out any unconvincing ones). 50% of gamers doesn't mean 50% of players in every genre just like 50% of workforce doesn't mean 50% of miners are female or that 50% of cashiers are male. We are sexually dimorphic species and we have different interests between sexes. So, that same statistic also showed that single largest group of gamers (male or female) are adult women and that their preferred genres are played by mouse and mouse only or on touchscreen. Even more importantly they can find those games absolutely for free on numerous portals like Kongregate or ArmorGames. Even when they pay to play those are your Zumas, Time management games, Hidden object games etc. Not games that benefit from high production values, and where competition in insanely high.

Next most numerous are young adult males who not only play games with high production values but are also group with personal income that is willing to divert largest part of their income towards games.

And that is just the snowflake on the top of the iceberg. Publishers are not out of the touch with market, that is their bread on table.
 

white_wolf

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Using dragonburns's examples why do games like Animal crossing, Bravely default, games marketed to everyone or the male audience 14-35 (but still be inviting to females)) get a female following but games trying to go for it like Remember me, Beyond two souls get noses turned up at it.

It's like you can lead of horse to water but can't make it drink. I'd put money down that the next call of duty game would have an higher female to male ratio then the next beyond good and evil or mirrors edge would if we could get those numbers in the west.
It's probably the marketing not just TV wise but internet and in stores how was each marketed? I know with Remember Me in my area there was one poster up in the GS and that was it no commercials, you had to go to YT to find any trailers, so no wonder no one knew anything about it. When they're testing their trailers they need to involve women gamers and if they want to get non-gamers into the mix then you need to have your feedback firm also tap non-gamers of a specific criteria to come and review with you your latest marketing pitch so that they can all help you figure out is this trailer you want to place out there going to pull in the demographics you want or is it turning them away? Last of Us did very well because they included women in testing and marketing feedback so women didn't get offended and had marketing that co-appealed to them as well so they bought the game. They also need to crash the stigma of this is a man's only playground, my nephew had all his friends over and several fem friends as well one admitted to me she wanted to play games, even told her parents she wanted to play and they said, " Its a boy thing its not for girls." what if movies did that? Its only for girls men shouldn't enjoy them?

More to OPs question though is there room for both men and women in gaming? Yeah they've both been playing games from the onset and with marketing it was already done (albeit by accident) before but it hasn't been that way for along time for the majority of games out there. You need to include story, mechanics, and themes that appeal to both sexes believe it or not there are many things men and women can both like across the board there are other things that they differ on so try not to do those things or if you have to place in things fem players find annoying for your male audience then make sure you do the same amount of things your men will find annoying so your women audience will have their turn to enjoy things, even it out. Its not like this site isn't filled with threads on women actively telling you what annoys them in games and giving you remedies to solve the issues. And baring the remedies part they're at least saying this is annoying stop it!

The trick isn't just about the games art, mechanics, story arch, characters, and themes presented its also advertising to appeal towards the women who already play your male orientated game and if you want to bring in new fem gamers then you need to actively try not just make your male theme game slap some pink and bows on it during marketing and try to lie to the fem gamers they'd enjoy this game too make it appeal ingame to them lots of women like rpgs like men because of the broader appeal. ME has a large fem base when they're doing things right we all love it when they're doing things deliberately to irk us we let them know it like you wouldn't believe because we like the men want them to fix the things they broke and in doing so made us enjoy the game less. Game devs just need to stop thinking as if men play this game only because its never been the case ever even it you only have 5% of women playing your god of war that's 5% you shouldn't want to stop playing it because you are beating a dead horse give them something in the content, story, and art that appeals to them so they can be even more connected to the game then before and they'll tell their friends and buy lots of collectables and heck cosplay.
 

Eve Charm

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Oh BS on marketing, It could help but you can have all the Marketing in the world but if it doesn't catch on with the actual people early adopters and the like the game is going nowhere. Ya Remember Me didn't get any marketing, it also came out in the Dead zone of summer so if someone was looking for a new game that month it'd be the only thing there. But besides that Mirror's edge had a decent campaign on tv magazines and online. Also rag on David Cage all you want Beyond Two soul starring Ellen Page and William Defoe came out at that big time of the year and had big names to go alone with it's marketing, from the same line of Heavy rain that sold millions and was a greatest hit. Lastly titles that are going after markets that are "Supposedly" starving for games, doesn't need much marketing at all, Word of mouth on demand sells plenty of niche titles to niche markets. How the heck else would something like spec ops the line or junk like lollipop chainsaw along with other suda 51 games if not for word of mouth cause I can bet they were marketed a lot less.

I think people are just over estimating the amount of people that care what gender or anything the main character there playing as as long as it makes sense still in the story or game if it matters.
 

carnex

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I will ask you all to do something. But first to present my mindset to see where I'm coming from. Anyway can we agree on these assertions

- On forums in general and especially on gaming forums only geeks and nerds reside
- Out of that community in general females are vastly more likely to be gamers then out of general public
- Out of that subset of females they are vastly more likely to play games that require and benefit from AAA treatment
- Out of all users in this forums females are more likely to participate in threads dealing with sexuality and female representation in games since it's more of an issue to them.

If you can agree to all of that, read posts in this and similar threads. Count the number of female and male posters. Now given the heavily slanted odds this forum has for participation of female gamers that play that certain type of games I would hold that as a overestimate of potential target market for female oriented games of such design. And it doesn't look good even when looked at that way.

Sorry, capitalism doesn't give a damn about me or you, just how much pockets and how deep they dip in.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Aiddon said:
of course, but AAA games and gaming in general still have this really archaic, backward boys club mentality. They seem to have trouble admitting women EXIST let alone that they're suitable for being protagonists or major supporting characters. Not just on the executive side either as a lot of dev teams seems to be comprised of the white, privileged, male demographic thus they make games for the same demographic, thus effectively themselves. And on the gamers side of things one need only see the reaction towards that ESA survey revealing that nearly 50% of gamers are women (one of worst examples of this being the comments section on Bob's Game Overthinker video on the matter (though admittedly Bob seems to get the WORST trolls on the internet in regards to that; seriously, cowardly chauvanists everywhere it seems). But anyway, there is room, but we're gonna have to tear the boys club down first. And the people who refuse to have it torn down are either going to be dragged kicking and screaming or left behind. Probably the latter as usually is the case.
Quick notes;

The white male (not all privileged) thing is because even at best on computer programming and game programming courses the highest % was 30% female with the average being just 10%. Why aren't there more women developers ? Because there just aren't many training in that field, however Psychology oddly has around 60% female take. If you say "All dev teams must have a women on them" then it actually causes more problems than it solves. you might think this is a joke but it's true. If being female helps with getting the job then it's possible for more highly skilled developers to be passed over for being male. If a female dev with lesser skills joins a team because she's female then it actually creates resentment in members of the team as they are being held to a higher standard as such and has lead to female employees feeling they were treated "As window dressing or like a potted plant". That quote was from a few years ago when the UK parliament saw a mass exodus of female MPs because of such policies causing some of them to have been promoted based on gender and because some had all ended up tarred with that image many wrongly so.

Next that 50% thing doesn't actually specify the type of gaming. There's the issue. AAA gaming requires people in "core" gaming and that means major console or PC. However gaming could also include simple internet games or smartphone apps. So because 50% of women play some kind of video game it doesn't mean they will buy the AAA kind, its a risk.
To put it in context I drink alcohol more specifically gin, rum but mostly cider as such I am very unlikely to be found drinking beer or whine as such making a type of wine for me won't get me to buy it without far more effort as first and foremost I don't look at wine normally and blank most adverts or wine products.

Question, do we need to tear down the boys club or do we need to expand it to add more rooms and diversity and maybe rename it to just the gamer club. Claiming we need to tear down the walls and have every game for everyone is going to result in some very muddy very grey games which try to appeal to everyone and end up appealing to no-one at all really. Games that tone down anything anyone might find offensive etc etc. Hence I said the room idea. Is there room in gaming for a chainmail bikini ? Yes right next to the belted fur lion cloth. The issue is when "realism" or "sensibility" is applied to armour design for one gender and Fanservice applied to the other such that it breaks the world building and doesn't fit in with everything else in the game.

Maybe Remember Me did badly and other games don't get female players because they aren't that good ? I can get the anger at games which change from a female Protagonist (watchdogs with a female lead would have been kind of cool, just hopefully not with the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo backstory and events...........)


Now as for the difference with Lara Croft and the guy from Farcry 3 other than the "rape" scene. In Lara Croft Lara was going to explore and to an extend expected everything not to be quite all 3 star hotels and heated baths but ended up in a far worse situation than she'd planned. While in Far Cry 3 it was someone out to have fun with friends and not care with no idea what would happen and what they'd get into they are thrown deeper in as they didn't expect this to start with. the motivations could be said to be for Lara her loved ones and in far Cry 3 partly your friends but a lot of it could be said to be revenge / vengeance.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Sack of Cheese said:
It's getting better. People (gamers and developers) start to be aware of the unnecessary "fanservice", hence we start to get more and more of these "sexism in games" discussions. It led to changes too. For example: Divinity Original Sin changed its concept art after receiving community feedback to be more serviceable to women.

Plus more games add women as its playable characters, such as in the case of the two latest Alien games. It's not a fast change, but it's still progress. Not to say that women don't want to play as men, or play games that aimed at the male audiences, but some find playing as their own gender, in a setting where their gender is treated with respect, more preferable.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, I dunno.
"Better"? You call it BETTER, really?

The organized harassment that the developers got? The barrage of insults? The threats of boycott from the media?

And that's all because of... a belly button in a small-budget game.

"getting better"
 

Burnouts3s3

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mecegirl said:
Why would they not include other minorities?
And why not include majorities first? The Catholicism is the biggest religion in the world. How many game protagonists are even Catholic? Are Catholics feeling excluded because of that? Should they?

VoEC said:
You should take a look at this article by Anjin Anhut: http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/2013/12/marketers-fear-female-geek-2/
I would say it pretty much sums up what the problem with marketing (especially in games) is.
Then she should become superior marketer.

And design these games that do "not suck".

What's stopping her? The evil patriarchy's keeping a womyn down?

Edit: I just googled this person, and it's a guy. An artist, dabbling in TRIGGER WARNING SEXISM: http://anjinanhut.deviantart.com/art/Rogue-Mutant-212303352 http://anjinanhut.deviantart.com/art/october-girl-2-ivy-138731619

Zira said:
I like what they did with changing Divinity Original Sin's concept art to make the male and the female as equals.

I wish more games, nay, ALL games did the same.
Jesus Christ. And then you wonder why people fear the SJW.

Recent events and a large exposure to unhealthy criticism had gotten me thinking and checking with my fellow artists. I'm sure people will say that as an artist we should learn how to deal with harsh and often unfair criticism, as if this is mandatory to being an artist. Yet at the same time artists have to be more and more careful of all those people out there we might possibly offend.

In a lot of ways you're forced to self-censorship when it comes to publishing your work.

Our kickstarter campaign for Divinity: Original Sin has gotten quite some criticism on its original poster art. Apparently it was deemed to be sexistic and women unfriendly by the way the female protagonist was portrayed: with a bare belly.

A bare belly was for some enough a trigger to send our company enough hate and threatening mails to persuade my boss to ask me to change the cover. I did, but did so reluctantly. Disagreeing wholeheartedly with the claim of the artwork being sexistic, the better half of me decided to meet "offended-by-design" people somewhere in the middle.

In the world of journalism there are channels that take an aggressive stance against everything they judge even remotely sexistic and in many instances denying the word of opposition by disabling criticism and reactions on their articles or blogs. Also blackmails in the form of "change your game art or we won't publish a single word about you." is a common behavior found among those.
Gethsemani said:
Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
And how many Caucasians even were in the games from 2013 except the Abkhazia thing in Metal Gear Rising?

Most of people in games are actually either Japanese or Western Europeans (or Americans of Japanese or Western European descent). Caucasians are extremely rare. And when they appear, they're usually only as cannon fodder to be killed, like the Chechens in some Russian games (for example Alfa Antiterror) also actually in several other Western games too. Mmmmaybe Khan in Metro: Last Light, but it seems it's just adopted name because he think he's Genghis (seriously?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_game_characters_by_nationality - quite a lot of Chinese too. Eastern Europeans represented just by Russians, or Greeks if they even count. The Poles there? I can only think of BJ Blazkowicz (Polish-American). The others? A Serb war criminal in GTAIV and... that's all, I think. Why is the Slavs are not whining how they're under-represented and how it HAS to be changed RIGHT NOW?

Even games made in Poland usually don't have Polish characters.

Zachary Amaranth said:
The thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right is shown the hostility this community has for women. Even if nothing she said was at all true, the kneejerkers have made a point about sexism that is powerful and resounding.
The thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right is shown the hostility this community has for Anita Sarkeesian.

And she did it already in 2011:


Look, a kneejerking sexist.
 

Zontar

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Sonichu said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
The thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right is shown the hostility this community has for women. Even if nothing she said was at all true, the kneejerkers have made a point about sexism that is powerful and resounding.
The thing Anita Sarkeesian has done right is shown the hostility this community has for Anita Sarkeesian.

And she did it already in 2011:

Look, a kneejerking sexist.
You also forgot the fact that a good 95% of the hate she got was in response to her spamming advertisement for her Kickstarter (which was for a show which was insultingly flawed by its very premise from an argumentative point of view) on /v/, and woe and behold she got the reaction that anyone who knows the first thing about /v/ would expect.

Professional victim 101: provoke them into giving you a reaction, use the reaction to make yourself look like the victim you aren't, then twist it in a way which makes you money. The fact that people can get away with it in this age of instant information speaks volumes about internet culture. And the reaction from games news sites also served to remind us why games journalism is considered on par with TMZ in the journalistic hierarchy (and after all the revelations which have come about since her kickstarter, it just makes her defenders look all the worst now that we know it was in fact a scam to make money).

On the bright side, her arguments (the ONLY thing she even tried to have going for her) have been countered, broken and destroyed so much by so many that now all she has going for her is the "online harassment" she got because of the fact she provoked it in the first place. I give her 2 more years before everyone forgets about her completely and she ends up a footnote in gaming history right next to Jack Thompson.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zontar said:
You also forgot the fact that a good 95% of the hate she got was in response to her spamming advertisement for her Kickstarter (which was for a show which was insultingly flawed by its very premise from an argumentative point of view) on /v/, and woe and behold she got the reaction that anyone who knows the first thing about /v/ would expect.

Professional victim 101: provoke them into giving you a reaction, use the reaction to make yourself look like the victim you aren't, then twist it in a way which makes you money. The fact that people can get away with it in this age of instant information speaks volumes about internet culture. And the reaction from games news sites also served to remind us why games journalism is considered on par with TMZ in the journalistic hierarchy (and after all the revelations which have come about since her kickstarter, it just makes her defenders look all the worst now that we know it was in fact a scam to make money).

On the bright side, her arguments (the ONLY thing she even tried to have going for her) have been countered, broken and destroyed so much by so many that now all she has going for her is the "online harassment" she got because of the fact she provoked it in the first place. I give her 2 more years before everyone forgets about her completely and she ends up a footnote in gaming history right next to Jack Thompson.
This too, but I was talking about her lies of "male gamers". While she's always had female gamer haters like this girl threatening to beat her up, even on this forum there is a female user that basically wishes her to die. But that's not because Sarkeesian is (also) a woman, it's because she's so incredibly obnoxious (which I'm pretty sure is how she acts on purpose).

Btw: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.849639-Online-Study-Women-are-just-as-likley-to-be-misogynistic-as-men-online?page=1 (no, I don't think it's "misogynistic", just like the men attacking other men is not "misandric" - just the fact they do it so often, which really should surprise no one).

But what you think was just gaming media's fault unfortunately isn't true. It was all kinds of media, including very respectable outlets (many of them), all just repeating the sob story and praising her.

And it continues still - like in the case of BBC earlier this month (go to 35:50):


And I'm afraid what Sarkeesian in this video called "their little videos" did really nothing to hurt her newfound reputation of the modern feminist icon and "pop culture expert" outside of gamer crowd.

Including among the Western developers (it's especially infuriating when Druckmann says "she loves playing video games"):

 

Tono Makt

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy Hell Batman, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Andrew Siribohdi said:
In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics). So, why can't there be the same in video games? In other forms of media, there's content for women as well as men. Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
AAA Game Cost: 15,000,000 USD as an extreme minimum.
Cost per unit: $30 (used for easy math, but based partially on this blog post: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/anatomy-of-a-60-dollar-video-game.html)
Number needed to sell in order to break even: 500,000

It's more risk than many investors would be willing to take. And there isn't much of a return on investment - particularly for the first game. For that first game the investor might be asked to take a financial loss in order to pay for marketing. Using Grand Theft Auto as an example:

GTA 1: Sold 100,000 copies.
GTA 2: Sold 200,000 copies.

GTA 3: Sold 14,500,000 copies.
GTA 4: Sold 25,000,000 copies.
GTA 5: Sold 30,000,000 copies.
(http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto ; I won't argue at the exact numbers, just using them as an example)

GTA is one of the highest selling video game series, but it took two games to find its groove. This is probably a best case scenario for any investor, and given today's standards they may be looking at having to invest $30,000,000 (2 games) before potentially having any return on their investment. And this would be over at least a 5 year time frame.

So $30,000,000 and 5 years, with no guaranteed return. Nor would they be able to sell much to recoup the losses as most of the costs were sunk into things that either you can't get back (salaries, marketing, utilities) or that retain very little of their value over time (computers, software). Compare that with a simple savings account or GIC at 2% over 5 years and there's a guaranteed profit of more than $3,000,000. And a guarantee of $3,000,000 is a better risk than the possibility of a loss of $30,000,000 at worst, or breaking even at best. With no guarantee that it's going to sell 14,500,000 copies in the next game.

There aren't many people out there who are willing to toss that much money down on what is pretty much a throw of the dice.

Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a AAA game? There can be - I'm surprised there isn't one. But let's not pretend like that's a game for women. Putting a woman in the role of an arse-kicking survivor doesn't make it a game for women. Unless you translate the internal struggle that Katniss goes through in the books into some sort of video game mechanic you can quite easily make a Hunger Games type game where you can play any of the 24 contestants, male or female, with little to no difference. Heck, it's not exceptionally hard to take the internal struggles of Katniss and turn her male. (I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea, only that it's not a difficult thing to do)

As for games for women in the AAA market, there will be - eventually. Video games are 40 years old (give or take), and are far more limiting than other forms of media (like movies) because of programming and technology. You don't have to create a whole new set of programming rules to make a movie aimed at women, but you might have to do that to make a game aimed at women. Most AAA video games are set up around three actions: Running, Jumping and Hitting With A Weapon. You toss in acting like "Driving", "Persuasion" and "Solve Puzzle" for many of them as well, but in general you can find Running, Jumping and Hitting With A Weapon (fist, melee or projectile) in almost all of them. These are quintessential traits that males are expected to use to solve problems. You have a problem with a bully, how do you solve it? Hit Them With Your Fist or Move Away. Also most of these games have similar outcomes for dealing with enemies - destruction. You kill enemies, you drain them of health, you knock them down to the point they can't get back up. Again very male traits - you hit the bully until he stops bullying you. Most of the games have either War or Standing Up To A Bully as a focus as well, both exceptionally masculine. What are the female equivalents? How do they translate into games? What sorts of problems would make games seem aimed at women? How would those be translated into games?

Or are we to assume that most women would prefer to deal with Khalisah al-Jilani in Mass Effect by punching her in the mouth? Using that situation as an example, how would women prefer to deal with her, if they wanted to be a Renegade? How could that be translated into a video game, if it's not "Punch her in the mouth."

It's going to take video game developers actually asking those questions, then experimenting in individual games, before we get to a point where there's a game that's actually aimed at women. Maybe we'll see something in the next Mass Effect game, where there are options that a Fem(Shep) can take that are more feminine in nature and aren't open to Male(Shep)? That's the sort of little step that's going to need to be taken, over a wide variety of games, before we start to get AAA games aimed directly at women. And the first one that's aimed directly at women is still going to be one heck of a risk.