Isn't there room for both men and women in AAA gaming?

gargantual

New member
Jul 15, 2013
417
0
0
Lilani said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?
Because there aren't as many AAA game devs as there are big Hollywood filmmakers just yet. Only a handful of studios and developers create what we think of as "AAA games." Hollywood does as much jumping onto bandwagons and market trends as video games do--have you SEEN the number of vampire and "teen female falls in love with hot supernatural teen male" movies coming out since Twilight? The difference is there are so fewer game devs that make AAA games that when they hop on a bandwagon, pretty much all of them do so because there simply aren't enough of them to fill two bandwagons. Hollywood has enough studios and filmmakers to supply both the "teen vampire" and the "Michael Bay splosion fest" bandwagons. But video games just don't have enough AAA devs to fill two bandwagons without one being the odd one out, and the entire point of hopping on a bandwagon is to NOT be the odd one out.

I think things are certainly getting better, but due to the nature of this cowardly bandwagon jumping it's not moving along as fast as we would like.
pretty true, but it does FEEL like theres been too much bandwagoning. At least too much for the game industry's size. We've had too many World of Warcraft copycats, and hardly any alternative takes on Eve Online. Call of Duty's influence has made Capcom and Square Enix terribly shortsighted, in how they tried to action-up, and consolidate their franchises of FF and ResiEvil for demographics who mainly did console multiplayer and didn't care, leaving their real fans upset.

What games are better off doing is seeing the weakness in popular titles whether in theme content or gameplay and using that as a springboard to provide experiences that are only similar at surface level, since they take longer to program.
 

JonnyHG

New member
Nov 7, 2011
141
0
0
Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
I think what's more important in terms of AAA gaming is not how many women are playing them, but how many are BUYING them. This is something that often gets overlooked in these discussions. I would be really interested to know what percentage of money that was spent on new games was spent by females.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
JonnyHG said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
I think what's more important in terms of AAA gaming is not how many women are playing them, but how many are BUYING them. This is something that often gets overlooked in these discussions. I would be really interested to know what percentage of money that was spent on new games was spent by females.
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
mecegirl said:
Auto-penis...I'm gonna have to use that. My username is not always Mecegirl but even when it is I've had people auto-penis me. As for the "casual" games. Maybe i'm just getting older but I remember when "casual" games were on consoles. What exactally is the difference between Harvest Moon and Farmville again? And puzzle games used to be on consoles too. So it's odd for me to hear people talk about such games as if they are lesser.
It is strange, when you think about it. I know people are normally talking Facebook games and things, but it's not like there is a hard line between casual and `core`. I mean, would Fire Emblem be casual, just because it's on handheld? Unless we can agree on an actual distinction, I suppose there's not much point differentiating.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,757
653
118
Gethsemani said:
I see the point of the criticism and I understand your point, but it is also kind of inane to home in on Girls in particular when there are literally dozens of shows being released every year that features a bunch of middle class white guys as the main characters and all these shows avoid the flak. Girls got the criticism specifically because it aimed only to portray white middle class girls in New York, something which drew much, much more ire than it really should.
Er...they do? Surely people keep complaining about endless shows featuring nobody but straight white guys?

Possibly "Girls" got more attention for standing out (by having female characters), or people claiming it to be terribly progressive, but I didn't see it being unfairly attacked.
 

Doomtrack

New member
May 3, 2011
15
0
0
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,552
0
0
thaluikhain said:
Er...they do? Surely people keep complaining about endless shows featuring nobody but straight white guys?

Possibly "Girls" got more attention for standing out (by having female characters), or people claiming it to be terribly progressive, but I didn't see it being unfairly attacked.
Sure people do. But there was an disproportionately large number of people that levied the "white girl" criticism against Girls compared to how many levied "white guy" criticism against many other shows that had the exact same problem that year. As I said, it is a legit criticism of Girls but Girls got hit with it much harder than was customary, most likely because it also drew attention for being a show about women.
 

VoEC

New member
Dec 10, 2010
39
0
0
You should take a look at this article by Anjin Anhut: http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/2013/12/marketers-fear-female-geek-2/
I would say it pretty much sums up what the problem with marketing (especially in games) is.

(Also Anjin is a pretty cool guy, has very interesting stuff on his blog)
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
I don't really get that though.
What does pretending to be a woman do in the long run? Nothing. It doesn't do anything, or hurt anyone.
So it's not really a problem.

Mostly, on games that are more social, like with MMO's- if someone assumes I'm male, I just correct them and it's normally not a big thing. But they all start from the same assumption instead of just asking.
 

Lieju

New member
Jan 4, 2009
3,044
0
0
Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
So?

Why not then consider everyone non-gendered until you actually know, then?
Or take their word for it. Why not?

Why is 'male' the norm there?

If someone tells me they're female on the net, I'm inclined to take their word for it, at least to the extent that I'd refer to them as female or something. I have no reason to treat them differently.
It's not like I'm going to try to have sex (or get nudes or whatever) with random people on the net.

What do you care if someone is pretending to be female or male?
 

Bluestorm83

New member
Jun 20, 2011
199
0
0
There WOULD be plenty of room in "AAA" gaming (whatever that means these days) for anyone who wants to Play Videogames...

But these days, it seems to be crowded full of hundreds upon hundreds of people who want to Censor Videogames, Ban Videogames, Shame Videogames, Change Videogames, Sell Videogames, or turn Videogames into "e-sports." Everyone needs to take their bullshit elsewhere, because VIDEOGAMES.

That said, I'm the Blue Guy from Contra, and I don't care if the Red Guy is a girl, a homosexual, a double amputee, a quadrapalegic utilizing some mouth control, or a baby with tentacles, compound eyes, and the face of that guy from the Norelco commercial where he declares that he'd fuck himself. So long as whoever Red Guy is has fun Playing Videogames.

VIDEO

GAMES
 

Doomtrack

New member
May 3, 2011
15
0
0
Lieju said:
Doomtrack said:
I just want to address the "autopenis" thing. I can only speak for myself here, but there are men trying to trick other people into thinking they are women for various reasons online, which is probably why people tend to "autopenis" a lot.
So?

Why not then consider everyone non-gendered until you actually know, then?
Or take their word for it. Why not?

Why is 'male' the norm there?

If someone tells me they're female on the net, I'm inclined to take their word for it, at least to the extent that I'd refer to them as female or something. I have no reason to treat them differently.
It's not like I'm going to try to have sex (or get nudes or whatever) with random people on the net.

What do you care if someone is pretending to be female or male?
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
 

Funyahns

New member
Sep 2, 2012
140
0
0
Its not only the female market being ignored though. They actively go after that 15-22 year old crowd of gamers. There is an older market out there as well who want more than just violence and gore.
 

ExtraDebit

New member
Jul 16, 2011
533
0
0
You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

So with that in mind, they will make shit to pander to whoever they think will give them the most money weather is male, female or dogs and they only going to do it to exactly fulfill your hunger like a cheese burger but never truly inspire or satisfy you like a well done steak.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
 

A-D.

New member
Jan 23, 2008
637
0
0
The thing is..marketing and audience. So you probably saw that "45% of all Gamers are Female" thing from the ESA, right? Quick show of hands, who here actually believes at least half of every Call of Duty Player is female? Starcraft? Battlefield? Okay, another test, how many people here think Candy Crush has at least 45% male players? FarmVille?

You see the problem, games are marketed at an audience that exists, not an audience that might possibly exist. Yes you could make a game that could have half its playerbase be female, you could also make a game that could make all of WoW subscribers leave WoW and come to your MMO. Just because something could potentially happen doesnt mean it will, even if you were to make the perfect game which would appeal to the potential female audience it does not mean that said audience would actually play your game.

Men and Women have different tastes in gaming, that doesnt say they all do, but most do, hence alot of women dont really play CoD or other big AAA Games, because the game does not appeal to them. We should not have to bend over backwards to get a bigger audience at the expense of the audience that we already know exists. We should not have to "broaden the appeal" or change something because some woman, somewhere, thinks that she MIGHT be more inclined to play a certain type of game if it was different. Because the logical assumption here is, she is not interested in that type of game to begin with. If you demand something about a existing genre has to be changed so you could be accomodated means that you dont want that particular genre, you want an entirely different genre that may include parts of an already existing one.

So is there "room" for both genders in the AAA Industry? Quite frankly, there is. But we cannot and should not demand change one way or the other to include both genders unless both genders actually want to play a specific title. Because in doing so, we destroy what already exists in the vain hope that both genders will actually play that game. In example if you were to take Battlefield and change it so it is appealing to more female gamers, you might risk alienating the already existing playerbase which could result in a drop of your audience entirely, rather than increasing the audience. You simply exchange one for the other.
 

Burnouts3s3

New member
Jan 20, 2012
746
0
0
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so. You can't count on the vocal angry crowd, because they're mostly there to cry foul at all the injustices, rather than actually being interested in spending as much money on games as the usual gaming crowd.

Should there be space for both? Absolutely, but I do not envy anyone who has to make the decision of making such a game, not to mention the economical risk as well as the risk of the people you employ, that might suddenly find themselves jobhunting.

As for ESA's report... I'd like to see more of the actual research and less of the oversimplified results.

ExtraDebit said:
You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

So with that in mind, they will make shit to pander to whoever they think will give them the most money weather is male, female or dogs and they only going to do it to exactly fulfill your hunger like a cheese burger but never truly inspire or satisfy you like a well done steak.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
Amen.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
 

Doomtrack

New member
May 3, 2011
15
0
0
Phasmal said:
Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
It should not work, if it did i would not have said "try" but that is besides the point, the point is that i do not trust a single person on the internet before i get to know them, regardless of what topic it is.

I want to make this very clear, it is not the fact that they are trying to masquerade as female, it is the fact that some people try to trick other people as soon as they get a chance online.
 
Sep 14, 2009
9,073
0
0
to the title thread:

Yes, yes there is plenty of room. Gaming is still relatively young compared to hollywood, and nowhere near as abundant in AAA development size, so there is always room to grow in that regard.

That being said, those big AAA companies are out to make money, so they're probably going to stick to tried formulas/ideas because they know how to do those and already have a fanbase for those, so unless you can convince tons of stockholders/publishers to change that, then it'll happen at a much slower pace. Changing established IP's and ideas for a POSSIBLE market while also POSSIBLY alienating the people you already have is a risky business decision, so thanks to capitalism that's probably not gonna change quickly anytime soon.


Kickstarter is probably the best bet for stuff like that, getting some new and awesome ideas out there and have it be bought up like crazy will cause pub's to rethink and try new things hopefully.

Phasmal said:
Doomtrack said:
I have had several incidents where people i know are males in real life try to trick me by promising nudes etc which i personally find disturbing, and as i said "i can only speak for myself" so i was simply trying to add some insight as to why some people do it.
Firstly, trick you how?
And secondly, how does that even WORK on guys? I mean, you know this is the INTERNET, right? It's not like there is a shortage of titties on the internet.

I still don't see why it would give you (or anyone else) cause to distrust someone who says they are female.
Now I've never actually fallen for that crap and I don't distrust someone instantly as soon as they identify as female,I couldn't care less one way or the other, but it was pretty damn common (especially in mmo's) to pretend to be a girl so you'd get tons of free shit, especially gold, just for the electron sized chance that you might get to see some boobies. I had plenty of doucher friends in my teenage years who would do this all the time just to manipulate the market and get free stuff.(speaking as a male who works at a place that has quite possibly the biggest playboy collection in a 500 square mile radius, looking at the same boobs gets boring, so seeing new boobs sparks a slight interest in that theory)

if you still don't get it, then I don't think you'll ever understand how neanderthal like a guys brain can get when filled with testosterone and not shooting some baby gravy for a while.
 

mecegirl

New member
May 19, 2013
737
0
0
Gethsemani said:
mecegirl said:
Gethsemani said:
Point in case: The criticism aimed at Girls for daring to be a show that's mainly aimed at women and featuring mostly women doing things that only occasionally involve men. Oh and its' failure to include people of ethnicities other than caucasian, since if you portray one "minority" (women) you have to include others.
Why would they not include other minorities? I don't know if you meant to imply this, but being a racial minority and a woman is possible. The same as being a sexual minority and a woman. And when the show is set in New York, one of the most diverse cities in the U.S, yes it should have diversity. There are too many shows set in urban spaces without diversity for people to let that criticism drop.
I see the point of the criticism and I understand your point, but it is also kind of inane to home in on Girls in particular when there are literally dozens of shows being released every year that features a bunch of middle class white guys as the main characters and all these shows avoid the flak. Girls got the criticism specifically because it aimed only to portray white middle class girls in New York, something which drew much, much more ire than it really should.

It is not that I disagree with the criticism, the problem is that the criticism was way out of proportion simply because Girls dared to be about white girls instead of being about white men. Much of the the criticism was even angled in such a way as to suggest that since Girls was about girls it was a show about "our generation of women", while Lena Dunham has repeatedly stated that it is only a show about her particular brand of New Yorker middle class women.
It probably seems inane to you because you don't see the criticism of other shows. There is plenty of criticism about the racial/ sexual make up of shows, but its not like the opinions of minorities get pushed into mainstream discourse that often. And just like any other show with a lack of diversity this show was criticized by minorities. It is just that this time, because some who are not minorities shared the the criticism, that their seemed to be a louder outcry.

Lena may not have intended for her show to be about "our generation of women" but White and heterosexual individuals are considered the default. And with feminism, or what some call mainstream feminism, the same is true. To the point that women who are minorities are wary of the movement because they have noticed that issues specific to their experience as women are pushed to the wayside.

Viewers would take her show to be about "our generation of women" even if she doesn't mean for it to be because of the racial and sexual make up of the cast. That also makes it easier for her show to be put on the air.

Either way, I seriously doubt that the minority women who criticized the show criticized it because it dared to not be about white men.
 

carnex

New member
Jan 9, 2008
828
0
0
Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
Up to this point all statistic show that those numbers are radically different. And yes it matters who bought. Whoever bought is a customer. 10 other people might play the game but they didn't for over the cash. When whoever creates statistics he knows only of the buyer. And even if he knew about other players they are of much less value to his since they didn't pay.