Isn't there room for both men and women in AAA gaming?

FieryTrainwreck

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Smilomaniac said:
You didn't hear? It is the sworn duty of privately owned and funded companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars catering to unproven markets. And if those markets don't even exist? Those same companies should be creating them out of thin air. Because equality.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Dragonbums said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?

That's quite a big misrepresentation of the argument you've got there haven't you?
When do we arrive at a suitable state? Who decides what that is? How do we get there?

The issue with this issue is that there is no acceptable mechanism for bringing about the "change" some people insist must happen. There isn't a big market for AAA games at women - not that we've seen. If one potentially exists, whose job is it to tap that market? Bearing in mind that a AAA production requires tens of millions of dollars, who exactly is going to make that leap or take that risk? Why should they? And what it it turns out there simply is no market? Is it suddenly incumbent upon the game makers to forcibly create it?

Do people even realize how AAA development works? When you're aiming for maximum profit, there is ONE target demographic - whichever demo makes you the most money when you succeed. Period. If it weren't young white men... it would be some other demo. And then EVERY game would target that demo. Games aren't made in aggregate. The publishers aren't a bunch of buddies working together to cover all of the available bases. They're aiming for the top spot, each and every one.

I guess I resent the notion that we have a representation issue in AAA gaming. It's an assertion that fundamentally misunderstands the reality of what is happening. And it's not sexism or racism or anything remotely of the sort. It's targeted development based on raw facts and figures. If you want them to aim for another demo, change everything else in the world to make another demo the most profitable for targeting... and then watch as that demo takes over just the same.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
You're excused.

Also, feel free to market western games to their women and see how it'll do.
Sarcasm aside, my thoughts was more on the western-type market, North America, Europe, the occasional aussie and so on.

If you have an argument to make, I'd be happy to hear it out.

Just like many people don't "get" Japanese videogames, well, a lot of Japanese players don't get our videogames. It makes sense and makes me wonder what point you were exactly trying to make.

Still, Japan has a big market of girls-oriented videogames, and on top of that, most of Japanese videogames of all kind contain some form of eyecandy for the ladies together with the eyecandy for the guys.

Ignoring the entire Asian market just to prove that companies don't make high quality videogames aimed at ladies (or, much more importantly, that take also female players and not only male players into account) seems quite wrong. I disproved your point by demonstrating the Japanese market can make money out of marketing videogames to ladies: we Western people could do that too if only we weren't culturally bound to ignore female sexuality.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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AAA are definitely more averse to risk, and while you say women detracting from the potential market is a point for more gender equality in games, I hate that attitude in regards to many other things in gaming, that you should aim to please everyone and go for the largest possible market. Instead I propose that they are already part of the gaming constituency of many games and would just be appreciative of better female characters and less fanservice. They're not an untapped market, they're playing the same games anyone would play and have the same range of tastes, but don't get the same experience because those games are made with guys mainly in mind, and most of the things that frustrate them - walking boobs characters, for instance - I would happily see gone in place of better characters. I do not however think male characters have it any better in general, for a host of reasons. But at the end of the day I think the kind of game I would think excellent doesn't need to include the things that detract from it for most female gamers. And I do think most female gamers realise the shallowness of male characters as well, and don't necessarily subscribe to the "everything is sexist" mentality. Then again, I don't have proof for or against that either.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
Smilomaniac said:
I sincerely doubt there's a proper opportunity for triple A games directed at women as the target audience. One or two games, maybe, but a market? I don't think so.


Excuse me, Japan would like to have a word with you....
You're excused.

Also, feel free to market western games to their women and see how it'll do.
Sarcasm aside, my thoughts was more on the western-type market, North America, Europe, the occasional aussie and so on.

If you have an argument to make, I'd be happy to hear it out.

Just like many people don't "get" Japanese videogames, well, a lot of Japanese players don't get our videogames. It makes sense and makes me wonder what point you were exactly trying to make.

Still, Japan has a big market of girls-oriented videogames, and on top of that, most of Japanese videogames of all kind contain some form of eyecandy for the ladies together with the eyecandy for the guys.

Ignoring the entire Asian market just to prove that companies don't make high quality videogames aimed at ladies (or, much more importantly, that take also female players and not only male players into account) seems quite wrong. I disproved your point by demonstrating the Japanese market can make money out of marketing videogames to ladies: we Western people could do that too if only we weren't culturally bound to ignore female sexuality.
You're not making a lot of sense. The reason I sarcasticly said to try to market western triple A in Japan was precisely because they have a different sense of aesthetics and values, which you're now trying to somehow use as an argument yourself, rendering your own point useless. It's a different market and it's a comparatively small one when the markets we're talking about are the combined western cultures.
And by the way, since when is Japan "the entire Asian market"? South Korea is just as dedicated, if not more, to games and are far more inclined to play western games. Furthermore, you're not disproving anything I've said, because I stated an opinion, not a fact, to which you responded with a flippant and frankly useless one liner.

Saying that they can do it and so should we, is not a wellmade argument. We can agree on a lot of things about how the state of affairs should be, but that doesn't magically make it so. You're not going to change things by responding sourly to how I think things are.
If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?

I'm not hearing any sound reasoning here.
 

Dragonbums

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FieryTrainwreck said:
When do we arrive at a suitable state?
That's putting the cart before the horse isn't it? I wasn't aware there was a "suitable" state for equal representation. Honestly though it seems that the only people worried about this are simply those who fear that they may have just as much representation as minority groups beforehand. Of course, it's not like we even made any progress to begin with so that question is null.




Who decides what that is? How do we get there?
Nobody decides this. Like, what, do you expect us to enforce this? Us whining on internet forum boards is enough to get people crying "CENSORSHIP!" When the devs are literally under no obligation to even listen to us in the first place. As for how do we get there...really now. Is that honestly a question need asking?

The issue with this issue is that there is no acceptable mechanism for bringing about the "change" some people insist must happen.
What mechanism. You literally add in more minority characters, or women who aren't just meant to sexually appeal to men and actually have a fucking purpose in the game. Games in the past have done this. And the only "insisting" we do is that if the gaming medium actually wants to expand they are going to have to touch upon different demographics eventually. Or they can be like the comics industry is right now. Where the demographic they've pandered to for so long is dwindling and they can't seem to capture they new audience.


There isn't a big market for AAA games at women - not that we've seen.
Well yeah. Something can't exist if nobody has ever tried it before. What are we supposed to do about it?


If one potentially exists, whose job is it to tap that market?
I would assume the companies that make videogames and the ones who want to grab that untouched, non competitive market.



Bearing in mind that a AAA production requires tens of millions of dollars, who exactly is going to make that leap or take that risk?
Well that's not exactly our fault is it? They don't have to make games for $10 million dollars. Granted that such a budget in and of itself is already problematic for even regular AAA games. They can very easily put aside a tiny but reasonable budget to a new team to work on experimental games and see if it works. It worked swimmingly for Square Enix and Bravely Default. I'm not exactly sure why this wouldn't work for a company that has hundreds of millions of dollars.


And what it it turns out there simply is no market?
There is a market for everything. However those markets don't just come out over night. It's something that needs to be cultivated and harnessed until it becomes real money making machine.

Things like the Wii's "Lighting in a bottle" demographic don't happen to everyone.


Is it suddenly incumbent upon the game makers to forcibly create it?
How are we forcing game creators to make these games? They must have really weak minds if complaining on forums really has that big of an impact on them.

Do people even realize how AAA development works?
So what? That doesn't absolve our rights to complain about it.




When you're aiming for maximum profit, there is ONE target demographic - whichever demo makes you the most money when you succeed. Period.
I guess you should head on over and take a look at Jim's "Pastas not Pasta" video.

There is never one demographic. There are multiple demographics.

You have some people who like "Slice of Life games". Animal Crossing sells gangbusters with this demographic (that also has a lot of women playing it. Go figure)


Others love JRPG's- Bravely Default is selling Gangbusters with this game (also another genre that tends to have a sizeable female fanbase. Goooo figure)

I can go on honestly. That there already is two demographics. Not one. And it seems that the mentality of "maximizing profits" with only one demographic has seen companies shut down faster than it's ever been before. That "One" demographic is over saturated. With dozens more people having money in their wallets just waiting for a game to come out for them.



If it weren't young white men... it would be some other demo. And then EVERY game would target that demo.
Yeah, and the same crap would happen again. The thing is, videogames is an entertainment medium. Entertainment mediums get nowhere catering to one very specific group of people. That's why they are stagnating now. And regardless of if it were the opposite the same thing would happen. Why do you think the indie scene blew up like it did? There were literal millions of dollars laying on the ground for games nobody made and they were the ones that scooped it up.



The publishers aren't a bunch of buddies working together to cover all of the available bases. They're aiming for the top spot, each and every one.
Not all of them are aiming for the top spot. Some of them just want to make good fucking games. And honestly, that's how a lot of game studios and publishers started out as.

Dark Souls wasn't aiming for the top spot of anything. They just wanting to make 2 million dollars in sales. that's not top. That's the fucking bottom in terms of AAA releases.

I guess I resent the notion that we have a representation issue in AAA gaming. It's an assertion that fundamentally misunderstands the reality of what is happening. And it's not sexism or racism or anything remotely of the sort. It's targeted development based on raw facts and figures. If you want them to aim for another demo, change everything else in the world to make another demo the most profitable for targeting... and then watch as that demo takes over just the same.
So you don't like it because it may or may not hurt business? Why don't you come over to the other side of the pond and understand how it even feels to be at the bottom of representation of practically everything around you.

I couldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. And consumers shouldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. The only thing I care about is me having $60.00 and not really using it because a game I really would like to happen doesn't happen.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
You're not making a lot of sense. The reason I sarcasticly said to try to market western triple A in Japan was precisely because they have a different sense of aesthetics and values, which you're now trying to somehow use as an argument yourself, rendering your own point useless. It's a different market and it's a comparatively small one when the markets we're talking about are the combined western cultures.
And by the way, since when is Japan "the entire Asian market"? South Korea is just as dedicated, if not more, to games and are far more inclined to play western games. Furthermore, you're not disproving anything I've said, because I stated an opinion, not a fact, to which you responded with a flippant and frankly useless one liner.

Saying that they can do it and so should we, is not a wellmade argument. We can agree on a lot of things about how the state of affairs should be, but that doesn't magically make it so. You're not going to change things by responding sourly to how I think things are.
If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?

I'm not hearing any sound reasoning here.


Frankly, I'm tempted to drop the discussion whenever someone says "Japan is a sexually repressed country". As someone with an university degree in Japanese language and culture, let me tell you, it angers me more than it would a Japanese to hear racist idiocies like that. (Mostly because a Japanese wouldn't be offended - they'd snicker and shake their head as they think foreigners can't understand their culture, so anything a foreigner assumes about Japan doesn't matter.)

This "sexually repressed country" is the only country in which, as I mentioned before, videogames aimed at females exist. This "sexually repressed country" is the only country in which a male protagonist can be sexy without the videogame being considered "gay".
And that's only to bring examples related to videogames.

Japan isn't better than any other country. When you study foreign cultures, you learn that it is always wrong to assume "X country is better than Y country". Why, I personally don't like America, and yet I understand the many good things that country has.

So, Japan is not better than any other place. But what you are saying is that Japan is worse, and that, my friend, is pure racism. Don't judge other cultures like that.



Back on the original topic of discussion, what you said is that "there is no place for AAA games for women", which, being a woman myself, I find... another offensive thing. Probably I'm far too easily offended, I guess, but you did manage to irk me twice with your statements.
Let me recap our discussion to see if I got it right.
I said "if there's no place for AAA games for women, why do Japan and Asia have those?" you replied "Well I was talking of Western games".
I said "but if Asian games can do that, then Western games can too" to which you replied "No, Western games can't be aimed at women because it's a different culture. Also, Japan is sexually repressed!". So, it's sexually repressed because it recognizes there is such a thing as female sexuality... something our liberal, sexually free Western countries still can't do if not in the form of stuff like Twilight?


Long story short: there IS place for AAA games for women. This is my point.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
...we'll just ignore their lowest childbirth rate ever (in the world) and the fact that their government has to encourage people to date. And of course their immensely high suicide rate has nothing to do with social culture/issues in general. Nah, it's all fine and dandy.
Of course, now that you've pegged me as a racist (and most likely a sexist), nothing I say or do can possibly be remotely true and are only based in my vile prejudicial nature. Oh woe is me. How will I ever be a good enough person to debate on your level.

Despite the entire Japanese population snickering at my gaijin foolishness, I will however attempt to review your argument.

Your reasoning is because one country in the world has managed to produce triple A games to a female audience (despite lack of examples of said games, sold amount or demographic size), is that it should be possible in the rest of the world. I do not dispute that possibility because I have never even heard of these games, but I trust you're not lying to me, or worse, don't know what you're talking about.
I do know that Japan has a large population, so it's not completely unreasonable to imagine that these games have a massive budget and revenue akin to western triple A games sold across the globe (western triple A being the underlying topic of the thread, because that's where we're from and the games we mainly play - I assume).

So the logic is, because Japan has a market, obviously the rest of the world has it as well and it's just not exploited yet.

Nope, can't see any faults in any of it. You're right and I'm just a racist that can't see how women could possibly want games. Now that you've wowed me with your factual reasoning and shamed me and my ways, I must go and never return to these forums.

...

Honestly though, it's not that I don't see your point, I just don't see it as a reasonable one, especially when you're being hostile about it. This isn't about justice or equality, it's the simple fact that western studios won't take the risk of trying to find this market, when they already have several others that work.
As for my personal opinion on the matter, I don't think there's a pre-established audience. I sincerely don't think there's enough people out there interested in a game catering to them, that it warrants the entire industry to change the way they make games.

I think if you crowdfunded a game with overt intentions of marketing a game for women, that it'd kick off and get a lot of money. Then maybe a few more and from there, when it's been done, there might be an actual market because you've garnered enough interest or it'll die out because there are more people who say they want these games, than they actually want them.

Either way, I'm just expressing my opinion, because at the end of the day I honestly don't care what happens. I've lost so much sympathy for the "cause" because of the way people go about promoting it - by bullying, shaming and guilting.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
Zira said:
...we'll just ignore their lowest childbirth rate ever (in the world) and the fact that their government has to encourage people to date. And of course their immensely high suicide rate has nothing to do with social culture/issues in general. Nah, it's all fine and dandy.
Of course, now that you've pegged me as a racist (and most likely a sexist), nothing I say or do can possibly be remotely true and are only based in my vile prejudicial nature. Oh woe is me. How will I ever be a good enough person to debate on your level.

And so by your same logic, all Americans are stupid, ignorant, fat, warmongering self-centered jerks? Because hey, that's what I would judge from the news.

And what next? All of Islam hates women? All Chinese people are good at maths? Black people are savage?


Just a suggestion, if you'll accept that: when you make statements such as "Japan is sexist", "there is no market for AAA games for women because I say so (and I'm probably a male)".... it's not like you're a poor victim of people being so aggressive towards you that you can't defend a good position. No, it's that you're saying offensive things that in turn make people answer aggressively to you.

Then again, if someone is expressing strong racist prejudices towards a country, it becomes very difficult to me to listen to anything this person has to say.

By the way, if you really need me to provide examples of my point about how Japan considers female sexuality in their videogames, I'm assuming you've never played a Japanese videogame ever.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Zira said:
And so by your same logic, all Americans are stupid, ignorant, fat, warmongering self-centered jerks? Because hey, that's what I would judge from the news.

And what next? All of Islam hates women? All Chinese people are good at maths? Black people are savage?


Just a suggestion, if you'll accept that: when you make statements such as "Japan is sexist", "there is no market for AAA games for women because I say so (and I'm probably a male)".... it's not like you're a poor victim of people being so aggressive towards you that you can't defend a good position. No, it's that you're saying offensive things that in turn make people answer aggressively to you.

Then again, if someone is expressing strong racist prejudices towards a country, it becomes very difficult to me to listen to anything this person has to say.

By the way, if you really need me to provide examples of my point about how Japan considers female sexuality in their videogames, I'm assuming you've never played a Japanese videogame ever.
At no point did I say Japan is sexist - I said trying to emulate their culture won't benefit gender equality in ours.
Also, I did not claim that there was no market - only that it's my opinion that it's an economical detriment to try to explore it. Because I say that I think there isn't one, it doesn't mean there isn't, that it's fact or that you have to take it as granted.

You're just putting words in my mouth because you're pissed off, for no fucking eligible reason that I can think of other than not agreeing with you. I'm not the one randomly accusing people and labeling them. Read your own comments and see where you took down this discussion, before you keep pissing on random people you don't know. I don't want or need your sympathy, I'd just prefer to see you behave like a decent person rather than a bratty nuisance.

Also, I'm not the one who turned the discussion over to a market on the other side of the world that has no relation to the topic at hand, so it's not my responsibility to find examples for you - factual examples that clearly indicate whether or not what you say might have any value or merit in this discussion. Do your own fucking work.

I couldn't give less of a shit of how Japanese developers handle sexuality, because that's only a tiny part of what a game catering to women might contain: It's possibly the worst argument you've made so far. If you want to give an example of something, find a game that sold well to women, show me the figures, the development cost and revenue and then we have an actual basis for the debate of whether or not it's already been done and might be a good idea to influence western markets with.

Unless of course you just want to keep insulting me - go ahead, keep demonstrating what a superior human being you are.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Smilomaniac said:
At no point did I say Japan is sexist - I said trying to emulate their culture won't benefit gender equality in ours.

What?

"If you think we'd improve our gender culture by imitating one of, if not the most sexually repressed countries in the world, you're doing it wrong. Why do you think they have so much pervy and boundary pushing porn?"

Well you got a point: you didn't call Japan sexist yet, you called it sexually repressed. Funny, seeing how from an Asian's point of view, it's OUR culture that is sexually repressive. Which culture is the one who doesn't want female protagonists? Ours. Which culture is the one whose leading religion shamed sexuality? Ours. Which culture is the one who doesn't want overtly sexy male protagonists? Ours.
But wait. I could say the exact opposite too. Which culture has a problem with groping on trains? Japan. Which culture censors genitalia in porn? Japan. Which culture partially still sees women as being housewives? Japan.

Do you understand the point I am making here? I could make Japan look like the most sexually repressed country ever, or I could make Western countries look like they've got the worst problems with sexuality. Does this mean it's all true? Then what, all countries are hyper-repressed? Or could it be... that it all depends on the informations you want to show?

If you're saying Japan is the most sexually repressed country ever, allow me to conclude that you are being racist and you're also showing you don't know much about Japan except the news that Western media tell you.









I couldn't give less of a shit of how Japanese developers handle sexuality, because that's only a tiny part of what a game catering to women might contain: It's possibly the worst argument you've made so far.

Are you saying that since it's Japan, we shouldn't care?

I disagree. Human beings are human beings. The reason Japanese anime became so popular among Western teens is because, despite the extremely different culture, there's something they can all like as human beings.
The same thing applies with games for women. Let's look at Japan for an idea of how to make games that appeal also to women, and then of course, let's change it to fit our culture.


As for the example, I won't mention girls-oriented videogames. I could do that, as I love those games, but they're so far oriented towards females, that a male can't possibly find them appealing.

I will instead mention games aimed at everyone, that still appealed ALSO to girls.







The list could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

Look at the examples I brought: not games aimed solely at girls - they're awesome, but they're not what I want Western audience to try yet (they couldn't).
The examples I brought are games for males and very popular among males.... that are also popular among girls because there's stuff they might like that doesn't make them feel excluded.


Does only Japan do this awesome thing of making videogames appealing to both genders?
Well, not always.
Bioware's rpg are very popular among the girls because they can make a female protagonist and date pretty and interesting boys: it's not about having some pointless virtual dating part, but it's about making the ladies feel this game caters to them too.
Nathan Drake is quite handsome and sexy: when I discovered Uncharted's writer was a woman, it all suddenly made sense.
Beyond Two Souls made all players happy: attractive female heroine to look at, but also dating guys if you'd like and well, the very fact being a female protagonist that doesn't wear slutty attire.

We're certainly not inferior to Japan, because as I said all countries are different but no country is inferior. So if Japan can make videogames that feel appealing to women, the three examples of Western games I mentioned show that we can do just that, too. In our own way.
 

Vrach

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To turn your post upside-down a bit:

Andrew Siribohdi said:
In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics).
Andrew Siribohdi said:
"that's what social gaming is for"
If you're willing to make the generalization for the sake of argument that women enjoy romantic comedies, then why push away the idea of "that's what social gaming's for"? I'm not making this argument myself mind you, just saying, if your idea of making "games for women" is to be analogous to the movies, then social games hold up just as well, if not better, than most romantic comedies.

That said, most content can be enjoyed by both sexes, it's just that both of them have certain preferences, in general (and even more so depending on the person obviously). The market is leaning towards making games for men/boys, because that's the larger part of their demographic (at least from what I've seen personally - I know a number of women who play games, but that number doesn't even begin to compare to the amount of male gamers; yes, I've seen all the "50% gamers are girls" surveys and articles, but I'm just not seeing that myself [unless you count social gaming of course, which I'm not scoffing at, but I don't think that's the subject at hand here], not that I have anything against the concept).

As for what it takes to get women to enjoy a game... I can't tell. My first thought would be "less violence, more story", but then again, most girls I know who've played any "real" games (ie. not Facebook/phone games) tend to love stuff like Mortal Combat and scoff at games with story in them. Maybe it's because the stories are not as good as in other media (let's be honest here, we're just not there yet when compared to movies/books), but what I mostly see is impatience. I think the time commitment of games is what puts off most women. What we consider a good story is generally a 30+ hour experience, most of which is spent in some form of combat gameplay.

In fact, there may be something to that. Don't get me wrong, I know a few girls who are as much of gamers as any men, but they're in the minority. The rest however, generally want something they can play for as long as they want and then put it down. Mario, Mortal Combat, even stuff like Counter Strike. The best thing I can think of is that they're not willing to put time in a game with a story, because that story is a few hours long (if that) and the rest is gameplay which just doesn't appeal to most of them. Boys like fighting more than girls, I think that's a fair generalization if there ever was one.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Dragonbums, mine was a fairly hyper aggressive response here. Sorry. I don't mean to come off like a raving lunatic. These discussions are a little predictable, and that can obviously generate frustration. I'm not going to run through and tone everything down. I'm just going to ask your forgiveness if the following stuff is too confrontational or pissy. Wasn't intentional.

Dragonbums said:
That's putting the cart before the horse isn't it? I wasn't aware there was a "suitable" state for equal representation. Honestly though it seems that the only people worried about this are simply those who fear that they may have just as much representation as minority groups beforehand. Of course, it's not like we even made any progress to begin with so that question is null.
I'm not worried about. I'm tired of fucking hearing about it. And yeah, I could just flee every single goddamn video game forum in existence and never see it again, but I think I'm also within my rights to address the conversation head on - as pointless, useless, and intellectually infuriating.


Nobody decides this. Like, what, do you expect us to enforce this? Us whining on internet forum boards is enough to get people crying "CENSORSHIP!" When the devs are literally under no obligation to even listen to us in the first place.
I completely fucking expect "you" (if you're included) to "enforce" this if enforcing it means speaking with your wallet instead of running your mouth for the umpteenth time in the same ineffectual place and pattern. Step up and make the games you want to see made. Don't expect private investors to roll the dice with tens of millions of dollars to appease a market that might not fucking exist. At the very least, get out and stump for the games doing it right... and realize that if you and people with similar points of view can't actually make such games financially viable, there might be a real and equally viable reason for it.

What mechanism. You literally add in more minority characters, or women who aren't just meant to sexually appeal to men and actually have a fucking purpose in the game. Games in the past have done this.
Games in the past have absolutely done this. And they didn't make more money. They didn't tap into new markets. That's why it's not common practice. The publishers aren't "scared old white men afraid to make more money". It's a fucking ludicrous assumption or implication right on its face. It's no different than decrying the gender wage gap out one side of your mouth while denouncing the unfettered greed of capitalism and the free market from the other. That corporations will do anything for a buck AND fail to capitalize on new markets seem mutually exclusive to me. You'd need old school sexist/racist people at the top of those trees, and if you haven't noticed? Those folks are getting bounced hard these days by share-holders, board members, anyone who cares exclusively about the bottom line.


And the only "insisting" we do is that if the gaming medium actually wants to expand they are going to have to touch upon different demographics eventually. Or they can be like the comics industry is right now. Where the demographic they've pandered to for so long is dwindling and they can't seem to capture they new audience.
Can gaming as a whole expand? Abso-fucking-lutely. But that's not Capcom's job. Or Sony's. Or any existing dev's. If you want the industry to actually grow (rather than, you know, SHIFT), we need new developers and studios, new investors. People willing to put up their own time and capital to accomplish what they feel needs to be accomplished. Instead we have endless hand-wringing and faux-journalistic bullshit aimed at shaming or otherwise altering the behavior of current publishers and devs. And that's bullshit.


Well yeah. Something can't exist if nobody has ever tried it before. What are we supposed to do about it?
Make it yourself, create a huge uproar on those rare occasions where it does happen, or accept that it's not up to privately owned companies to risk tens of millions of dollars to maybe prove to the world that a certain market might conceivably exist. Based largely, of course, on the say so of runaway internet gender equality ideology.


I would assume the companies that make videogames and the ones who want to grab that untouched, non competitive market.
First of all, it's not a privately owned (or more accurately, any company that isn't funded with taxpayer money) company's job to do anything it doesn't decide to do. It's not up toe Jaguar to satiate the compact economy market. It's not up to McDonald's to deliver $100 steak. If a company doesn't want to make money doing something, they don't have to.

That said... you assure me this is fertile ground? That they can release a AAA game aimed at, say, women, and the rewards will be substantial as well as virtually guaranteed? Strange, though... why aren't you trying to tap that market? Why aren't the Anita Sarkeesians of the world turning their media might and considerable fund-raising ability towards correcting the perceived imbalances in representation and treatment with their own productions? Why is the only answer "complain loudly and unceasingly until maybe the thing I want to happen happens"?



Well that's not exactly our fault is it? They don't have to make games for $10 million dollars. Granted that such a budget in and of itself is already problematic for even regular AAA games. They can very easily put aside a tiny but reasonable budget to a new team to work on experimental games and see if it works. It worked swimmingly for Square Enix and Bravely Default. I'm not exactly sure why this wouldn't work for a company that has hundreds of millions of dollars.
So now we're switching the argument to a general admonishing of the AAA development strategy, which everyone already knows to be horseshit. When you step outside of AAA, guess what happens? Minority and female representation! Better writing! More attention to character and variety! It's a conflation of separate issues. I detest AAA gaming, by in large, because it is idiotic. I want smarter, more complicated fare. But you know what? I realize I'm not a big enough potential market for some company to spend ~100 million targeting. You know how I solve this problem? I buy the games that interest me and ignore the ones that don't. What I don't do is complain about a lack of representation of my personal interests in AAA gaming when I understand perfectly why it is so.


There is a market for everything. However those markets don't just come out over night. It's something that needs to be cultivated and harnessed until it becomes real money making machine.
You're talking about creating markets. Spend enough on advertising and hype, you can sell practically anything to anyone. Is that what we're really advocating here, though? That the AAA publishers should just keep throwing money at alternative markets until they eventually become profitable? When their margins are already thin and most of them are already dying or gone? Feel free to go present this idea at the next board meeting and see what happens. You'll be laughed out of the room. And not by racists or sexists, but by intelligent, reasoned business people who know what the fuck they're doing. With respect to making money, anyways. Just not with respect to your or my idea of the gaming industry.


How are we forcing game creators to make these games? They must have really weak minds if complaining on forums really has that big of an impact on them.
Pronoun confusion on this one; I was asking if it their job to force the existence of such markets. It is obviously within their power to do so, but are the markets legitimate if they must be coerced? Is there a generation of young women waiting patiently for "their games"? Or do they simply, on a large enough scale, not give a shit about games? And is that a bad thing that must be corrected or just "a thing"?

So what? That doesn't absolve our rights to complain about it.
Knowing how AAA gaming works doesn't change the fact that you're allowed to complain about it? Can't argue with that. You get mad at gravity, too?

I guess you should head on over and take a look at Jim's "Pastas not Pasta" video.

There is never one demographic. There are multiple demographics.

You have some people who like "Slice of Life games". Animal Crossing sells gangbusters with this demographic (that also has a lot of women playing it. Go figure)


Others love JRPG's- Bravely Default is selling Gangbusters with this game (also another genre that tends to have a sizeable female fanbase. Goooo figure)

I can go on honestly. That there already is two demographics. Not one. And it seems that the mentality of "maximizing profits" with only one demographic has seen companies shut down faster than it's ever been before. That "One" demographic is over saturated. With dozens more people having money in their wallets just waiting for a game to come out for them.
I very carefully said "maximizing profits". And of course it's a bad business strategy for long-term growth/success. But that doesn't make it a moral or social issue, which is what virtually all of these threads assume. People doing stupid shit with their money has always been a thing and always will be a thing. If it's a free market situation with literally no one getting legitimately hurt, you just let them piss away their money. Something else will take their place - if they should even exist in the first place. Play the other games. Play the indies. Let AAA gaming die because it's inefficient and unsustainable - NOT because it is sexists or racist. Because it isn't. It's just stupid.

Yeah, and the same crap would happen again. The thing is, videogames is an entertainment medium. Entertainment mediums get nowhere catering to one very specific group of people. That's why they are stagnating now. And regardless of if it were the opposite the same thing would happen. Why do you think the indie scene blew up like it did? There were literal millions of dollars laying on the ground for games nobody made and they were the ones that scooped it up.
EXACTLY correct. Video games is an entertainment medium. It's not the public sector. It's not government work. It's not a utility, a necessity, or a fact of life. As such, this is one arena where the free market should be allowed to do its thing. If a person believes there is room for AAA games aimed at minorities or women, that person is free to make it a reality through actual labor and risking of assets. Of course, he or she is also free to attempt to make it a reality through constant complaining and shaming of others. This does, however, make said person a giant fucking twat deserving of no one's respect.



Not all of them are aiming for the top spot. Some of them just want to make good fucking games. And honestly, that's how a lot of game studios and publishers started out as.

Dark Souls wasn't aiming for the top spot of anything. They just wanting to make 2 million dollars in sales. that's not top. That's the fucking bottom in terms of AAA releases.
What is your point here? The ones who aren't "doing it right" in terms of representation are absolutely the ones aiming for the top spot. The ones who aren't aiming for the top spot aren't handcuffed into "doing it wrong". You're talking about two different groups of publishers/developers here.

So you don't like it because it may or may not hurt business? Why don't you come over to the other side of the pond and understand how it even feels to be at the bottom of representation of practically everything around you.

I couldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. And consumers shouldn't give two fucks about how the AAA industry works. The only thing I care about is me having $60.00 and not really using it because a game I really would like to happen doesn't happen.
Or you could shove your assumptions about who you think I am and realize that someone who is every bit as shafted by the AAA gaming industry as yourself (if for entirely different reasons) can still be rational about the reasons why things are the way they are. You want a certain sort of AAA game that doesn't exist, yes? Maybe, based on your stringent participation in this discussion, you want a game with more minority or female representation or higher quality representations of the same. Unfortunately, a very, very small percentage of games give you this. Me? I want games that challenge my preconceived notions about narrative and gameplay, that subvert my expectations in clever and impressive ways. Guess what? They don't make my games either. And they probably shouldn't. Because there aren't enough people who share my expectations and interests to make a $20 million gamble worthwhile.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Andrew Siribohdi said:
Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?
The term AAA comes from credit. The safest (and thus least risky) bonds are AAA.
When companies looked for financing of big budget games they had to sell the idea of why they should be invested in to investors. They coined the term AAA games, invoking the idea that they were the safest return on investment for games you could get.

So I'd say, yes. Yes AAA games are adverse to risk.
It's not where the passion is. It's not where the bold experiments are taking place. It's where gameswith proven structure, proven gameplay and proven demand is. Since it's proven, you know that it's not going to be very original or groundbreaking.

And the demand for female protagonists in for example shooters or female football hasn't been proven as far as I know.

AAA will give you exactly what the people as a mass bought yesterday. If multiple indy games that could work as a big AAA game did amazingly well in online marketplaces and had only female protagonists, then AAA games would follow. If you believe the demand to be there, make yourself rich and make that game.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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of course, but AAA games and gaming in general still have this really archaic, backward boys club mentality. They seem to have trouble admitting women EXIST let alone that they're suitable for being protagonists or major supporting characters. Not just on the executive side either as a lot of dev teams seems to be comprised of the white, privileged, male demographic thus they make games for the same demographic, thus effectively themselves. And on the gamers side of things one need only see the reaction towards that ESA survey revealing that nearly 50% of gamers are women (one of worst examples of this being the comments section on Bob's Game Overthinker video on the matter (though admittedly Bob seems to get the WORST trolls on the internet in regards to that; seriously, cowardly chauvanists everywhere it seems). But anyway, there is room, but we're gonna have to tear the boys club down first. And the people who refuse to have it torn down are either going to be dragged kicking and screaming or left behind. Probably the latter as usually is the case.
 

Eve Charm

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I highly doubt Otome are reaching AAA status in Japan or their respective country, While the only thing that seems to come out of it to the west is an Hakuoki otome and kinda fate stay. I'd say Tokimeki Memorial might me the most noticeable one but I doubt you'd get more then 1 person out of 1000 to know what it is on the other side of the world. Things that are Huge in a part of a world do tend to travel.

Anyway the funny thing seems to be is AAA is doing the best it can do to capture women gamers... At least on the western side of things. Using dragonburns's examples why do games like Animal crossing, Bravely default, games marketed to everyone or the male audience 14-35 (but still be inviting to females)) get a female following but games trying to go for it like Remember me, Beyond two souls get noses turned up at it.

It's like you can lead of horse to water but can't make it drink. I'd put money down that the next call of duty game would have an higher female to male ratio then the next beyond good and evil or mirrors edge would if we could get those numbers in the west.
 

carnex

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Again with 50% (and it not 50% even if it's close) and the misrepresentation of the facts (rather leaving out any unconvincing ones). 50% of gamers doesn't mean 50% of players in every genre just like 50% of workforce doesn't mean 50% of miners are female or that 50% of cashiers are male. We are sexually dimorphic species and we have different interests between sexes. So, that same statistic also showed that single largest group of gamers (male or female) are adult women and that their preferred genres are played by mouse and mouse only or on touchscreen. Even more importantly they can find those games absolutely for free on numerous portals like Kongregate or ArmorGames. Even when they pay to play those are your Zumas, Time management games, Hidden object games etc. Not games that benefit from high production values, and where competition in insanely high.

Next most numerous are young adult males who not only play games with high production values but are also group with personal income that is willing to divert largest part of their income towards games.

And that is just the snowflake on the top of the iceberg. Publishers are not out of the touch with market, that is their bread on table.
 

white_wolf

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Using dragonburns's examples why do games like Animal crossing, Bravely default, games marketed to everyone or the male audience 14-35 (but still be inviting to females)) get a female following but games trying to go for it like Remember me, Beyond two souls get noses turned up at it.

It's like you can lead of horse to water but can't make it drink. I'd put money down that the next call of duty game would have an higher female to male ratio then the next beyond good and evil or mirrors edge would if we could get those numbers in the west.
It's probably the marketing not just TV wise but internet and in stores how was each marketed? I know with Remember Me in my area there was one poster up in the GS and that was it no commercials, you had to go to YT to find any trailers, so no wonder no one knew anything about it. When they're testing their trailers they need to involve women gamers and if they want to get non-gamers into the mix then you need to have your feedback firm also tap non-gamers of a specific criteria to come and review with you your latest marketing pitch so that they can all help you figure out is this trailer you want to place out there going to pull in the demographics you want or is it turning them away? Last of Us did very well because they included women in testing and marketing feedback so women didn't get offended and had marketing that co-appealed to them as well so they bought the game. They also need to crash the stigma of this is a man's only playground, my nephew had all his friends over and several fem friends as well one admitted to me she wanted to play games, even told her parents she wanted to play and they said, " Its a boy thing its not for girls." what if movies did that? Its only for girls men shouldn't enjoy them?

More to OPs question though is there room for both men and women in gaming? Yeah they've both been playing games from the onset and with marketing it was already done (albeit by accident) before but it hasn't been that way for along time for the majority of games out there. You need to include story, mechanics, and themes that appeal to both sexes believe it or not there are many things men and women can both like across the board there are other things that they differ on so try not to do those things or if you have to place in things fem players find annoying for your male audience then make sure you do the same amount of things your men will find annoying so your women audience will have their turn to enjoy things, even it out. Its not like this site isn't filled with threads on women actively telling you what annoys them in games and giving you remedies to solve the issues. And baring the remedies part they're at least saying this is annoying stop it!

The trick isn't just about the games art, mechanics, story arch, characters, and themes presented its also advertising to appeal towards the women who already play your male orientated game and if you want to bring in new fem gamers then you need to actively try not just make your male theme game slap some pink and bows on it during marketing and try to lie to the fem gamers they'd enjoy this game too make it appeal ingame to them lots of women like rpgs like men because of the broader appeal. ME has a large fem base when they're doing things right we all love it when they're doing things deliberately to irk us we let them know it like you wouldn't believe because we like the men want them to fix the things they broke and in doing so made us enjoy the game less. Game devs just need to stop thinking as if men play this game only because its never been the case ever even it you only have 5% of women playing your god of war that's 5% you shouldn't want to stop playing it because you are beating a dead horse give them something in the content, story, and art that appeals to them so they can be even more connected to the game then before and they'll tell their friends and buy lots of collectables and heck cosplay.