Isn't there room for both men and women in AAA gaming?

[Eve Charm]

Baby steps, Rebel Raven, People hate change, they are afraid of it, so it can only happen in Baby steps. Which in itself, it ISN'T or wasn't made into a big deal about Female characters in your modern military shooters, but it's there. It's Also why your add on DLC is getting in and not the main game or only sections.

Basically look at Microsoft with the Xbone, There will be a day like it or not our gaming will be 100% digital and connected online, Telling people TODAY is that day all of a sudden you had the pitchforks and torches and everyone not buying an XBone. Same when you all of a sudden "Hey Here's that game all the Females been asking for buy it buy it!" and you get basically nothing sales with games like Remember me and Beyond two souls and others.

Just give it time as long as you see progress being made, Not only do they have to lead in the Female gamers pretty much almost like tricking them, they have to get the Guys comfortable playing games with Female leads to.

 

[carnex]

@Rebel Raven
I guess you are console gamer. Make your own game is a valid remark for a small percentage of gamers who do have skills, desire and will to make a game. You obviously don't fulfill at least one of those requirements but that doesn't mean that you cant do anything about it other than complaining. Today it's even easier, or at least more credible with digital downloads. My idea would go something like this

- Buy a game digitally
- Play it so it stick to your profile both as purchase and playing material.
- Write a positive and constructive criticism to developers, publisher and company that created console (just CC that email). Even if the female character is highly flawed by your standards don't get caught up in it. You don't want to sound like you have unreasonably high standard for quality of protagonist or character. Make sure to mention name of the account your game is attached to so that they know you are a customer, full price customer if possible.

now comes the real work

- you probably know other female gamers. Convince them to buy game, play it and write their constructive letter.
- Convince them to seek other female gamers to do so.

Well, lastly, hope for the best. That is only way i know, and therefor the best way to really reach big money studios. Indies are easier, just contact their public persona but they are even less likely to hear you. If the had their female character in mind they if make it, otherwise probably not no matter how much you harass them. I know I'm not saying anything new but stating it again never hurts. And realize you are not going to get anything resembling your utopia. Be grateful for any success. Rest will come with time

 

[Therumancer]

I've heard the argument (forgive the straw man), "that women are a niche market" and "that's what social gaming is for". But, wouldn't that detract from sales in mainstream gaming? Also, I've heard that "past market trends say that women don't play games like Battlefield". Does that mean that AAA games are adverse to risk?

In movies and television, you see a variety of content made for men and made for women and made for both. So, there can be a Michael Bay movie here and playing in another theater, there can be a romantic comedy here (Not to imply that a man cannot enjoy a romantic comedy or a woman cannot enjoy a Michael Bay film. It's just a generalization for the sake of argument and the way films are marketed to demographics). So, why can't there be the same in video games? In other forms of media, there's content for women as well as men. Why can't there be a Hunger Games video game as a traditional AAA game while traditional market continues to have Battlefield on the other end of the spectrum?

Well, the thing is that both men and women co-exist within gaming as it is. For the most part video games are co-gender, as they focus on your basic action/adventure/doing exciting stuff premise since you need to have something to do to make them a game. For the most part when it comes to this kind of thing men and women both enjoy the same kind of stuff. To be honest the biggest problem with gender arguments is that people seem to think that the "fan service" and the like drives women away, when really that couldn't be further from the truth. To be honest these sexy female characters in games are exactly like the ones women create themselves when it comes to fantasy and science fiction
and the like. Female artists, writers (including women writing largely for other women), etc... make exactly the same kind of thing which is why it works and sells. For the most part the whole "women are turned off by all the sex appeal" schtick seems to largely come from guys who "don't get it" and seem to think that by making such arguments it's going to make them more desired by women and/or bring more of them into their circle. In reality that's far from the case, and it should be apparent to anyone whose looked at Kim Harrison's writing, "Tru Blood" (and the books it's based on), and numerous other things, not to mention the work of female fantasy artists like Julie Bell. Basically if you think there is a problem, your over analyzing.

As far as niche genera products, those exist too. Your typical AAA action game is already pretty much co-ed with those sexy female characters being like the ones women create for themselves (and indeed inspire all kinds of "Mary Sue" fiction in many cases). Outside of that you have romance games and the like, many of which are produced by companies like "Winter Wolves", not to mention whole sections of the whole "Light Novel" industry. Hidden Object and "Adventure" games have entire series largely created for and primarily marketed towards women in terms of their themes and such.

To be brutally honest if there is any kind of gender discrepancy in gaming, or the media in general, it's actually against men. For all the complaints about the treatment of women in the media, it seems to me that guys are the ones who are really abused. It seems you can hardly put on a TV show without seeing a commercial having women belittle men and present them as dumb, clumsy, buffoons. Even in TV shows you typically have the female characters one-upping the guys constantly, being mildly insulting and patronizing at times, and even going so far as to slapping guys around, grabbing their sex organs, and other assorted things... a common point being that if a guy did anything like that to a girl in one of these shows there would be an outcry, yet it's considered "cool" or "okay" when a girl does it, because it shows "what a strong person she is". In reality in a lot of cases it goes from being "a bit sassy" to "complete and total B@tch" depending on the scene. You even have entire shows built around some girl running around with more than one male love interest, perhaps even cheating on both of them, and again that's okay when a girl does it as it's all about "love and emotion". A guy doing the same thing is of course presented as being scum nowadays. Look at something like say "True Blood" (which gets even worse in the books).

I find it kind of ironic that people got all upset about "Duke Nukem" based on the guy's behavior, when it was simply the same kind of empowerment fantasy in reverse. Portraying women as being not too bright and handling them as scene dressing or set ups for humor (sometimes off color), and of course Duke apparently shamelessly banging numerous women left and right. Basically Duke acts just like half those "strong female characters" do, except he happens to be a dude... and at least with Duke it's a satire (starting with his name) as opposed to being presented somewhat seriously. Now granted the last game blew chips on it's own merits, but it sort of illustrates the dual standards that when a guy with a name like "Duke Nukem" acts like an arrogant muscle-bound, man-whore, while saving the world and people hate him. On the other hand a character named "Sookie Stackhouse" can run around reading people's minds (which has been compared to brain rape, not that it's been followed through on), lead a bunch of guys around by the nose, and save the world with her mystical fairy powers (she's actually more powerful than any of the dudes who show up to rescue her), and nobody bats an eye there... indeed it sells millions of books and gets it's own highly praised TV series... and let's be honest here, in the intellect department Sookie and Duke are about equal, if they both got together they could each rub their one functioning brain cell together and hope to make a spark.

To be honest I'll actually be kind of relieved when we see more "Duke Nukem" type stuff succeeding without being called out every 15 seconds by crusaders wanting to make an issue. It shouldn't be everywhere of course, but the way I see things is the general run of gaming is fine, and men and women are entitled to their own games, and honestly one thing that both genders tend to appreciate is the playful mockery of the other gender. Right now things have actually swung pretty far in the direction of the feminine despite people insisting there is still an issue, I think things need to move back a little more in the other direction and just stay there in the middle.

 

[Strazdas]

Is there space for women there? definitely. Are women a significant population of current AAA? no their not. I do not care what sex the other player is, i treat them the same and usually only find out their sex when they speak in teamspeak or ventrillo, and by that time we have already chatted some anyway. however it is simply inescapable truth that there are more men than women in tripleA gaming. It may change, it may not, personally, i do not care as i dont care what sex my opponents/teammates are.

As far as "huger games" of gaming? first of all please no that was an awful movie.
But im sure what you mean here is female protagonist. Well, game studios tried. the result was abusmal to nonexistent sales, massive loss and closing down of studios. whether it was the female protagonist or anything else within a game at fault is irrelevant, the thing is they wont try again. at least for some time. Naughty Dog is probably the only one that got away with it with Last of Us, and even then the main progonist was still male.

I don't really get that though.
What does pretending to be a woman do in the long run? Nothing. It doesn't do anything, or hurt anyone.
So it's not really a problem.

Mostly, on games that are more social, like with MMO's- if someone assumes I'm male, I just correct them and it's normally not a big thing. But they all start from the same assumption instead of just asking.

I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).

But yeah, in singleplayer games it wont hurt anyone of course. actually, i am currently playing a female character in oblivion. the reaosn i picked that is because i have never played one and wanted to see what it feels like.

 

[Phasmal]

I know it sounds mad hence I posted a link to that Rant I wrote which included an experience when I was attacked for being sexist because I didn't help a female player kill a boss and didn't give her free stuff.

For a while in WOW I believe it was pretty common, at least for a short while.

I read your link the first time- I just didn't have anything to say about it. The first experience was weird, sure.
Your second one, wasting time aruging with beggars will always end in an argument. How many guys have whispered me asking for free stuff? Plenty.
I just don't see either of those things as a reason to distrust, disbelieve or dislike people who identify as female.

I dunno, I played WoW for five years and I ONCE ran into someone ask that people go easy on their DPS because they were a girl. And that was the entirety of my negative experience with internet ladies.
Also no one gave me free stuff there either. I must have missed that phase.

It is pretty dumb but again it really is an issue to an extent of exploiting the stupid . Gullible.

Yeah, but there are plenty of people who exploit the gullible in plenty of ways.
I remember making a threads, ages back, asking if people had pretended to be female. Many guys responded that they had.

I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).

TBH this sounds more like a dude problem than a lady problem, no offence.
I remember a while back playing a round of Trouble in Terrorist Town, and I'd found a `safe server` (a server I can use my real voice on without people being major fucktards), and mostly the guys there were being nice to me. One of them was talking to me a lot and then another player suddenly snapped angrily about how when a girl comes in everyone wants to talk to them all the time. I apologised if I was annoying them, and they stated it wasn't me who annoyed them, but everyone's reaction to me.
That was actually quite revealing.
I want it to be no big deal, playing games as me. I just don't know how to make everyone else see it as no big deal.

 

[Phasmal]

I think the issue is if they announce it without a reason more than anything or that's brought up pretty quickly. Mainly due to the beggar attitude.


Maybe you didn't get free stuff because unlike some you have self respect and aren't trying to manipulate people.
Note: that applies to both genders who did it.

So I guess you don't get stuff -just- for being a girl then.

Case and point why people doubt it most of the time.

I dunno man, I am STILL not getting this as a big issue.
Either way, doubting people's self-expressed gender and autopenising just serves to make female gamers invisible and the ones who do identify `suspicious` thus causing women not to want to identify on games which I'm sure we can all agree is more shitty than some guy whispering you asking for free shit pretending to be a flirty girl.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

-Snip

The question should be though, should every game have to include a male / female option or does that detract from the story ?

Would playing college graduated explorer Larry Croft learning to survive and become a strong independent man on an island work so much as a story or does it being the female Lara Croft actually help the story ?

I'm not saying the option is always a bad thing but asking for all games to have it brings up the question of story etc. If it fits then sure but I really don't think it would always fit. A better option would be to see more games with female protagonists rather than trying to have gender options in every game.

Of course not. I'm almost as against gender select in all games as anything else. Gender Select is almost always pointless beyond cosmetics in the long run, sometimes amusing, but assuredly not the answer 100% of the time.
Gender select almost always waters down a personality into something unisex, which is fine in doses, but as a norm? No thanks, as it does, indeed detract from the story fairly often.
We can have games where the protagonist is mono-gendered, or have games where you can select from a cast of characters with assorted genders, especially in the name of story/plot. In fact we should.

Few companies actually make one gender over the other matter. I think that's problematic.

Still, in story/plot shallow games like WWE games (*Mutters about restrictions for divas still existing*), and assorted sports games, and driving games, and so forth, gender select is more welcome than not.

Honestly, wouldn't Nathan Drake be the male equivalent to Lara Croft, anyhow? Or Whazzizname from Farcry 3?
Honestly, Larry Croft probably wouldn't make a huge difference from what I remember. Not a whole lot of the game revolved around Lara's gender. It's not like Lara got much of a relationship. Sure she had a crush on a guy, but nothing really came of it, and she sure as heck didn't act on it. Sure there was that QTS that sparked a rape controversy, but it wasn't near as bad as people thought.
Most games where you play as a woman, there's small odds of having a relationship anyhow. At least one as grand as Nathan Drake's, or Kratos', or most guys. Heck, even Bionic Commando had a closer relationship that I've seen in most games with women as playable characters go in terms of monogender protagonists.
Sure you can cite Mass effect, and Dragon Age, and the ilk but honestly it saved their butts as much as it was a good thing for femshep/Hawke players considering the hell Bioware would catch if only the male gender got romance options.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Of course not. I'm almost as against gender select in all games as anything else. Gender Select is almost always pointless beyond cosmetics in the long run, sometimes amusing, but assuredly not the answer 100% of the time.
Gender select almost always waters down a personality into something unisex, which is fine in doses, but as a norm? No thanks, as it does, indeed detract from the story fairly often.
We can have games where the protagonist is mono-gendered, or have games where you can select from a cast of characters with assorted genders, especially in the name of story/plot. In fact we should.

Few companies actually make one gender over the other matter. I think that's problematic.

Still, in story/plot shallow games like WWE games (*Mutters about restrictions for divas still existing*), and assorted sports games, and driving games, and so forth, gender select is more welcome than not.

Honestly, wouldn't Nathan Drake be the male equivalent to Lara Croft, anyhow? Or Whazzizname from Farcry 3?
Honestly, Larry Croft probably wouldn't make a huge difference from what I remember. Not a whole lot of the game revolved around Lara's gender. It's not like Lara got much of a relationship. Sure she had a crush on a guy, but nothing really came of it, and she sure as heck didn't act on it. Sure there was that QTS that sparked a rape controversy, but it wasn't near as bad as people thought.

Not so much in the new Tomb raider where they tried to have a story such as the stuff about the deer etc. With Farcry 3 it was more "Privileged white dude gets shook out of comfortable life and learns he might be more of a killer that he though and ends up wondering if he can go back to normality"

Most games where you play as a woman, there's small odds of having a relationship anyhow. At least one as grand as Nathan Drake's, or Kratos', or most guys. Heck, even Bionic Commando had a closer relationship that I've seen in most games with women as playable characters go in terms of monogender protagonists.

That's very true and honestly needs to be changed, infact the only one I know of is Remember Me which had the publishers trying to stop it. That is unless you could Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit)and I think there were romance options in Beyond Two souls and heavy rain (if very clunky because David cage)

I dunno, your farcry 3 synopsis syncs pretty well with Tomb Raider.
"Privileged white girl gets shook out of comfortable life and learns she might be more of a killer than she thought and ends up wondering if she can go back to normality"

Spoiler

Though, not much of a spoiler, here, since it's a prequel, but her decision is a resounding no, she can't go back to "normal."

In fact, I'm not entirely sure where your synopsis of FC3, and TR reboot differ.

Remember Me'd relationship -was- stopped. Nilin was supposed to kiss a guy. Never did. Never really got too close to any guy, really.

The love scene (where you only play as a guy, so it doesn't really count) in indigo prophecy still freaks me out, graphically.
Pretty sure B2S had a romance in it, and according to reports, it was indeed a jarring one. I can't say I played it yet since the female protagonist screaming/sobbing/crying for help while I failed to figure out a puzzle as Aiden was quite the turn off. I never could stand such a thing. It killed my desire to play an old spiderman game, and damn near did in fable.

I wholeheartedly agree the lack of romance for female protagonists needs to change.

 

[Strazdas]

I knew a guy who pretended to be a girl on a MMO called TIBIA. Half of the items he had was gifts he recieved from me thinking he was actual female. When i asked him why is he playing a female the gifts and "better treatment" was his reasons. he would come to a cave, pretend to be silly teen girl and they would let him hunt there where if i were to come there they would shoo me away (and if i dont leave they just kill me).

TBH this sounds more like a dude problem than a lady problem, no offence.
I remember a while back playing a round of Trouble in Terrorist Town, and I'd found a `safe server` (a server I can use my real voice on without people being major fucktards), and mostly the guys there were being nice to me. One of them was talking to me a lot and then another player suddenly snapped angrily about how when a girl comes in everyone wants to talk to them all the time. I apologised if I was annoying them, and they stated it wasn't me who annoyed them, but everyone's reaction to me.
That was actually quite revealing.
I want it to be no big deal, playing games as me. I just don't know how to make everyone else see it as no big deal.

I agree its a male problem here, was merely pointing out what they could be gaining from pretending to be female, since you asked. Personally i treat both sexes the same. as far as im concerned there are no males and females on the internet, there are people.
I too have observed however how a female in a group can attract attention to the point of making others uncomfortable. it is not her fault (most of the time anyway, i saw some that was really asking for it). This is usually due to the effect of females being rare in these places and people treating it like some rare event that "a female has came". which i find silly but they still exist.

 

[Phasmal]

I agree its a male problem here, was merely pointing out what they could be gaining from pretending to be female, since you asked. Personally i treat both sexes the same. as far as im concerned there are no males and females on the internet, there are people.
I too have observed however how a female in a group can attract attention to the point of making others uncomfortable. it is not her fault (most of the time anyway, i saw some that was really asking for it). This is usually due to the effect of females being rare in these places and people treating it like some rare event that "a female has came". which i find silly but they still exist.

I understand the basic principle of it. It still confuses me though.
I have no idea how people go about it.
I mean, if it was as easy as going `I am girl- give me thing` I would have probably done it because scrubs who fall for that don't deserve their stuff.

I mean it sounds so obviously like a scam I have no idea how anyone falls for it. So there should be no reason to distrust someone saying they are female unless maybe they are asking for all your stuff in the same breath.

Guys who treat me as just another gamer are the best. I like the guys to be impressed by my mad skillz, not my gender.
I think doing what you and that guy I gamed with do is best, just call out dudes for freaking out that a girl is playing, cause it's silly.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?

 

[Dragonbums]

I'm really looking forward to the day when we have exactly the right number of men and women (and everything in between), blacks and whites (and everything in between), heterosexuals and homosexuals (and everything in between), old and young (and everything in between) all properly represented in every type of job, every political office, every form of media, every conceivable nook and cranny of society. I'm sure the true wants and desires of all those people will very naturally line up with their lots in life, too. No autonomous choices, no fluctuations or imperfections or anomalies based on individual preference. Won't it be glorious?

That's quite a big misrepresentation of the argument you've got there haven't you?