Bonnie RubergGaming coming into the mainstream brings many things, both good and bad. Bonnie Ruberg looks at the effects that the mainstream will have on the gamers of today, with comparisons to comics, books, and movies.
Issue 26 - Mainstream Shopping, Mainstream Gaming
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
- Start date
Original Comment by: Marduk
Great article - I continue to wonder if there is any hope though. I don't see a lot of small shops dedicated to movies where you have film-savants discussing the latest on-goings with the art. What makes us think that games are any different these days...?
*sighs*
If nothing else, the article makes me want to go out and open up my own geeky comic/wargame/D&D/PC-PS-Xbox-game shop!
Great article - I continue to wonder if there is any hope though. I don't see a lot of small shops dedicated to movies where you have film-savants discussing the latest on-goings with the art. What makes us think that games are any different these days...?
*sighs*
If nothing else, the article makes me want to go out and open up my own geeky comic/wargame/D&D/PC-PS-Xbox-game shop!
Original Comment by: Brinstar
http://acidforblood.blogspot.com/
Geeky things like comic book stories are developed into media that the mainstream enjoy, and yet the original source material is still enjoyed mainly by the subculture. Non-geeks in my office have seen the latest Batman film or A History of Violence, and yet I'll bet they haven't picked up a comic book in 10 or 15 years, much less ever been avid readers of comics. D&D and comic books aren't as mainstream-friendly as video games, I guess.
http://acidforblood.blogspot.com/
Geeky things like comic book stories are developed into media that the mainstream enjoy, and yet the original source material is still enjoyed mainly by the subculture. Non-geeks in my office have seen the latest Batman film or A History of Violence, and yet I'll bet they haven't picked up a comic book in 10 or 15 years, much less ever been avid readers of comics. D&D and comic books aren't as mainstream-friendly as video games, I guess.
Original Comment by: Andrew
It seems to me that console games have really driven up the amount of mainstreamity (that-a-word?) of video and computer gaming.
Think about it, just in terms of cost. A videogame console is incredibly cheaper than a PC, yet offers all the basics of a videogame that a console gamer might want.
Sure, console games are fun, and good for a half-decent part. The real indie scene, as I'm sure it has been stated before, has and always will rest in PC Gaming. From the CS nOOb, to the mod teams, indie gaming thrives on PCs.
It seems to me that console games have really driven up the amount of mainstreamity (that-a-word?) of video and computer gaming.
Think about it, just in terms of cost. A videogame console is incredibly cheaper than a PC, yet offers all the basics of a videogame that a console gamer might want.
Sure, console games are fun, and good for a half-decent part. The real indie scene, as I'm sure it has been stated before, has and always will rest in PC Gaming. From the CS nOOb, to the mod teams, indie gaming thrives on PCs.
That's likely just because it's not really possible for indie coders to develop for the console platform (Unless it's for an emulator?), without a dev kit. But anyone with knowledge of a game-capable programming language could feasibly put even a small game up for the PC.
What would happen if one of the big three released a console that was 'open' enough to accept programming from coders without dev kits.
Hmm
What would happen if one of the big three released a console that was 'open' enough to accept programming from coders without dev kits.
Hmm
Original Comment by: Andrea Appel (a.k.a. Alexandra Erenhart)
http://aerenhart.blogspot.com
"Both tabletop gaming (as represented to the masses by D&D and Magic: The Gathering) and comic books are still considered extremely nerdy."
Lol I'm extremely nerdy then!! hahaha
Here in Chile, being a gamer is very much a subculture and still a big nerdy sign. Even more paper-and-dice roleplay, because it isn't known by people but by those who play it. I still hear my relatives saying that roleplaying was demoniac and brainwasher... gladly, neither my mom nor me listened to them
Gaming is still very unique here, because prices are high, and all the merchandising around it is very rare (and very much pricer).
http://aerenhart.blogspot.com
"Both tabletop gaming (as represented to the masses by D&D and Magic: The Gathering) and comic books are still considered extremely nerdy."
Lol I'm extremely nerdy then!! hahaha
Here in Chile, being a gamer is very much a subculture and still a big nerdy sign. Even more paper-and-dice roleplay, because it isn't known by people but by those who play it. I still hear my relatives saying that roleplaying was demoniac and brainwasher... gladly, neither my mom nor me listened to them
Gaming is still very unique here, because prices are high, and all the merchandising around it is very rare (and very much pricer).
Original Comment by: Slartibartfast
Interesting article, although I am not sure how much I agree with it. It seems to me that gaming itself is already experiencing a bit of stratification from within, and that in itself is very fascinating. For example, I consider myself to be a somewhat "indie" gamer. I have very specific tastes, and am always hunting down rare, obscure titles. I just got a PS2 last week, primarily so I could play Shadow Of The Colossus. The only other games I have for it so far are Katamari Damacy and Viewtiful Joe 2 (haven't located a copy of the original for PS2 yet). I have no interest in big-launch games such as the Madden's or even Doom 3. I know I am not alone. So within gaming, I feel like that indie aesthetic is starting to develop already.
This is interesting to me though because that "open platform" mentioned above already exists: the PC. It may not be as cheap or as accessible, but it's what Jon is looking for. Also, check out the Dreamcast homebrew scene, it's pretty hopping.
Finally, more on topic: I went home for the first time since May for Christmas, and one of the top things on my list to do was visit the local independently-owned game store. Unfortunately the owner was not there (he and I can talk for hours). That's the only store I've ever been in that had a CD-i for sale, complete with crappy Zelda games.
Interesting article, although I am not sure how much I agree with it. It seems to me that gaming itself is already experiencing a bit of stratification from within, and that in itself is very fascinating. For example, I consider myself to be a somewhat "indie" gamer. I have very specific tastes, and am always hunting down rare, obscure titles. I just got a PS2 last week, primarily so I could play Shadow Of The Colossus. The only other games I have for it so far are Katamari Damacy and Viewtiful Joe 2 (haven't located a copy of the original for PS2 yet). I have no interest in big-launch games such as the Madden's or even Doom 3. I know I am not alone. So within gaming, I feel like that indie aesthetic is starting to develop already.
This is interesting to me though because that "open platform" mentioned above already exists: the PC. It may not be as cheap or as accessible, but it's what Jon is looking for. Also, check out the Dreamcast homebrew scene, it's pretty hopping.
Finally, more on topic: I went home for the first time since May for Christmas, and one of the top things on my list to do was visit the local independently-owned game store. Unfortunately the owner was not there (he and I can talk for hours). That's the only store I've ever been in that had a CD-i for sale, complete with crappy Zelda games.
Original Comment by: Raja
On the computer side of things, Game Tunnel [http://www.gametunnel.com/] is a site dedicated to the indie gaming scene. For consoles, the Xbox 360 could easily support an indie gaming community provided small games of the type delivered via the Xbox Live Arcade could be developed without investing in dev kits. An Xbox SDK for use with Visual Studio would be an excellent way to stimulate this sort of developer community.
On the computer side of things, Game Tunnel [http://www.gametunnel.com/] is a site dedicated to the indie gaming scene. For consoles, the Xbox 360 could easily support an indie gaming community provided small games of the type delivered via the Xbox Live Arcade could be developed without investing in dev kits. An Xbox SDK for use with Visual Studio would be an excellent way to stimulate this sort of developer community.
Original Comment by: robustyoungsoul
http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com
I have never heard of "Kirby: Canvas Curse".
I suppose my l33t h4xx0r card is hereby revoked.
Fanboy culture can still exist in an interest that has become mainstream... it is defined by the level of knowledge and attention to detail within that sphere of interest.
For example, I'm a software engineer. I like to play video games. I like this magazine. But I've never heard of "Kirby: Canvas Curse" or "Shadow of the Colossus" (from the previous post). So I would not be able to call myself a fanboy. I highly doubt that the frat boys playing Madden '06 would know about most of these games as well.
So indie culture can still exist despite the area of interest becoming mainstream.
http://soulkerfuffle.blogspot.com
I have never heard of "Kirby: Canvas Curse".
I suppose my l33t h4xx0r card is hereby revoked.
Fanboy culture can still exist in an interest that has become mainstream... it is defined by the level of knowledge and attention to detail within that sphere of interest.
For example, I'm a software engineer. I like to play video games. I like this magazine. But I've never heard of "Kirby: Canvas Curse" or "Shadow of the Colossus" (from the previous post). So I would not be able to call myself a fanboy. I highly doubt that the frat boys playing Madden '06 would know about most of these games as well.
So indie culture can still exist despite the area of interest becoming mainstream.
Original Comment by: Slartibartfast
Robust:
Kirby: Canvas Curse is a fun little game on the DS.
As for Shadow Of the Colossus: if games can be art, this game is art. And may be the first game to actually be art.
Why?
Because art is meant to challenge you, make you think and feel differently from how you normally would, and to make yourself ask why you feel the way you do. No other game has ever done that for me. There has never been a game that I have been ashamed of enjoying, because no other game forces you to destroy beauty for such selfish reasons.
It's worth $200 to buy a PS2 and this game.
This is a game that will be worth three digits on ebay in 10 years, maybe less. And I sure as hell won't sell mine.
Robust:
Kirby: Canvas Curse is a fun little game on the DS.
As for Shadow Of the Colossus: if games can be art, this game is art. And may be the first game to actually be art.
Why?
Because art is meant to challenge you, make you think and feel differently from how you normally would, and to make yourself ask why you feel the way you do. No other game has ever done that for me. There has never been a game that I have been ashamed of enjoying, because no other game forces you to destroy beauty for such selfish reasons.
It's worth $200 to buy a PS2 and this game.
This is a game that will be worth three digits on ebay in 10 years, maybe less. And I sure as hell won't sell mine.
RYS: But is that really the definition of indie culture? Kirby is pretty mainstream - it's a big franchise. Not knowing what it is just means you're like a lot of people - too busy to keep up to date on every release, especially those on platforms or in genres that don't interest you a whole lot. Someone's knowledge of obscure titles, or even ones outside their area of interest doesn't necessarily label them indie. In fact, if someone knew everything about every game release - a walking Gamespot - but didn't play non-triple-A titles, I wouldn't call them an Indie gamer.
I'd qualify someone who is incapable of not judging a game primarily by its gameplay as an indie gamer. Someone with the ability to appreciate titles that innovate the industry through game design instead of rendering power.
What do you think?
I'd qualify someone who is incapable of not judging a game primarily by its gameplay as an indie gamer. Someone with the ability to appreciate titles that innovate the industry through game design instead of rendering power.
What do you think?
Original Comment by: Raja
Heck, I got my used PS2 (to play Katamari Damacy) with controllers, memory cards, and a copy of Bloody Roar 3 (that I traded away) for CDN$120.
If you can find a copy of ICO, play that before Shadow of the Colossus. I found mine for $10 in the bargain bin at a grocery store. It was so good that I went out to buy Shadow on release day, sight unseen and reviews unread -- only to find it sold out. I bought it the following week.
The only problem is that now I'm contemplating buying a widescreen HDTV to do the game justice.
Heck, I got my used PS2 (to play Katamari Damacy) with controllers, memory cards, and a copy of Bloody Roar 3 (that I traded away) for CDN$120.
If you can find a copy of ICO, play that before Shadow of the Colossus. I found mine for $10 in the bargain bin at a grocery store. It was so good that I went out to buy Shadow on release day, sight unseen and reviews unread -- only to find it sold out. I bought it the following week.
The only problem is that now I'm contemplating buying a widescreen HDTV to do the game justice.
Original Comment by: Slartibartfast
Raja:
Ico is on my list, believe me. I want to get it before the PS2 goes out the door because then the price will go up, I'm just a tad broke at the moment, what with xmas and all. So I'll probably have Shadow done before I even get a copy of Ico.
Jon:
I am confused by your definition of an indie gamer: are you saying that indie gamers only judge games based on who made them (as in the case of the dreaded indie rockers)? You seem to be saying that indie gamers only appreciate games for their "rendering power," when I am saying the opposite. Was this a typo or did I miss something?
Raja:
Ico is on my list, believe me. I want to get it before the PS2 goes out the door because then the price will go up, I'm just a tad broke at the moment, what with xmas and all. So I'll probably have Shadow done before I even get a copy of Ico.
Jon:
I am confused by your definition of an indie gamer: are you saying that indie gamers only judge games based on who made them (as in the case of the dreaded indie rockers)? You seem to be saying that indie gamers only appreciate games for their "rendering power," when I am saying the opposite. Was this a typo or did I miss something?
Original Comment by: Mark
Local, geek-run game stores don't exist any more?
That's news to me.
I think we can't overlook the power of the mainstream retailers to provide that sort of environment, however. I think even in a franchise store, there's room to create a sort of community experience - set aside a portion of your store as a place where people can show up and immerse themselves in gamer culture. Invest in a TV with some consoles attached, sell drinks, host tournaments, whatever you want. Independent stores have been doing this since their inception, partly out of necessity, but the first retailer to provide such an environment will find itself sitting on a gold mine.
I have a friend who manages a Gamestop. I don't doubt that he's considered such a thing.
Local, geek-run game stores don't exist any more?
That's news to me.
I think we can't overlook the power of the mainstream retailers to provide that sort of environment, however. I think even in a franchise store, there's room to create a sort of community experience - set aside a portion of your store as a place where people can show up and immerse themselves in gamer culture. Invest in a TV with some consoles attached, sell drinks, host tournaments, whatever you want. Independent stores have been doing this since their inception, partly out of necessity, but the first retailer to provide such an environment will find itself sitting on a gold mine.
I have a friend who manages a Gamestop. I don't doubt that he's considered such a thing.
Original Comment by: Patrick Dugan
http://www.kingludic.blogspot.com
In any industry, service sucks in America. I like the manifesto call at the end, particularily "some amoung us are already breaking new ground", made me feel like part of the community.
"Riding the Sea Change: The Death and Rebirth of Subculture"
Hmmm, I think someone has been letting Evangelion subconsciously slip into their writing.
http://www.kingludic.blogspot.com
In any industry, service sucks in America. I like the manifesto call at the end, particularily "some amoung us are already breaking new ground", made me feel like part of the community.
"Riding the Sea Change: The Death and Rebirth of Subculture"
Hmmm, I think someone has been letting Evangelion subconsciously slip into their writing.
Original Comment by: Bonnie Ruberg
http://www.heroine-sheik.com
Thanks to those who said they enjoyed the article, and to all for such a constructive conversation!
Patrick, there will always be Eva references in my writing. They don't even have to be subconscious.
Mark, interesting point about mainstream stores creating a community feel. While I would say that, in some ways, that has potential, I haven't personally experienced it at any of a large number of retail shops across the country. It would take a number of dedicated managers (like your friend), and most probably have other priorities.
robustyoungsoul, I would argue that the subculture you mention, the one that still exists in the face of the mainstream, either manifests itself as a hardcore culture (which you hint at in discussing level of knowledge) or as an indie culture, which stands aside from the mainstream, and, I quite agree, can exist simultaneously and dynamically with the "norm."
Startibartfast, I think you're right that there is an indie culture underway, but it's still in its early stages, building steam.
Andrea, another big difference (or maybe the same one restated) is that Chile is much less commercialized than America. I think the overall economic feeling of the culture has a significant impact.
http://www.heroine-sheik.com
Thanks to those who said they enjoyed the article, and to all for such a constructive conversation!
Patrick, there will always be Eva references in my writing. They don't even have to be subconscious
.Mark, interesting point about mainstream stores creating a community feel. While I would say that, in some ways, that has potential, I haven't personally experienced it at any of a large number of retail shops across the country. It would take a number of dedicated managers (like your friend), and most probably have other priorities.
robustyoungsoul, I would argue that the subculture you mention, the one that still exists in the face of the mainstream, either manifests itself as a hardcore culture (which you hint at in discussing level of knowledge) or as an indie culture, which stands aside from the mainstream, and, I quite agree, can exist simultaneously and dynamically with the "norm."
Startibartfast, I think you're right that there is an indie culture underway, but it's still in its early stages, building steam.
Andrea, another big difference (or maybe the same one restated) is that Chile is much less commercialized than America. I think the overall economic feeling of the culture has a significant impact.
Weighing in on the 'Indie Scene' of gaming - I'll say flat out that I don't believe it exists in the face of the mainstream or in spite of it, but because of it. Think about it. Most of those indie developers from back in the day? They've pioneered the mainstream. The industry wasn't born from the tinkerers who were left behind as it became mainstream. Those tinkerers made it mainstream. Atari, id software, Origin, Bungie, etc. The industry was never about being insular and independant from the mainstream - it's always been about being ubiquitous. Those same independant developers from 20 years ago are the mainstream of today.
The problem with that is mainstream products - with very few exceptions - are diluted. When you have everything to lose, you risk little. When you have nothing to lose, then the risks don't matter much. Because of that freedom, the indie scene grows from that lacklustre mainstream. Some are industry vets, others aren't anything more than disillusioned fans, but the fact is the indie scene forms after the mainstream proves itself incapable of more than fiscal growth. They're free to do what many developers knee-deep in the industry are unable to do - experiment.
So, it's important to realise that the indie scene isn't simply a group of rebels who have it out for the man, but a necessary force of evolution to further gaming (or any other phenomenon) toward something better.
The problem with that is mainstream products - with very few exceptions - are diluted. When you have everything to lose, you risk little. When you have nothing to lose, then the risks don't matter much. Because of that freedom, the indie scene grows from that lacklustre mainstream. Some are industry vets, others aren't anything more than disillusioned fans, but the fact is the indie scene forms after the mainstream proves itself incapable of more than fiscal growth. They're free to do what many developers knee-deep in the industry are unable to do - experiment.
So, it's important to realise that the indie scene isn't simply a group of rebels who have it out for the man, but a necessary force of evolution to further gaming (or any other phenomenon) toward something better.