John TynesJohn Tynes laments the loss of roleplaying when the face-to-face roleplaying games were converted to modern CRPGs. Join The Contrarian as he contrasts these worlds, and looks at the players trying to force it back into MMOGs.
Issue 30 - The Contrarian: Masks in the Woods
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
- Start date
Original Comment by: parkbench
I agree wholeheartedly with the article--the problem game designers need to face is removing themselves from the formulaic frame of mind and thinking, 'okay, how can I relate as the player?'
Many games *do* give you an awkward disconnect from your avatar. But when it's executed masterfully, or even if it's just well-done, the game instantly feels a thousand times better. Even games like Animal Crossing; it feels like *your* village, *your* house, that *you* are building up and decorating. You don't say, 'he got a royal couch,' you say '*I* got a royal couch, and it looks good in *my* house.'
I think even the most 'typical' of the high-end MMORPGs, like Everquest, have room for this. I disagree that the game mechanics make the players unable to fully roleplay, though. Did The Escapist not have several articles about manufactured gameplay in EVE Online?
Indeed, one could argue that so-called 'manufactured gameplay' is the *only* way to let players do what they want. That is, to create a game with a ruleset, but a--here it comes--paidia so effectively set-up that it *is* a sandbox. I mean, think about it--why can't you really roleplay in Super Mario Brothers 3? You can barely even move two directions. Now think about real life, where physical games are created all the time. Most of the time, these can be done 'without restrictions;' without adhering to some, "oh, we can't trade items," or "yeah, Earth doesn't have pencils' rule. EVE Online had a bunch of people deciding they wanted to do something, and even though everyone else 'could' theoretically do 'anything' to *them* (ie, the neutral outpost in space), they didn't.
Why? People underestimate trust and cooperation. These are the fundamentals of Wikipedia. Hell, these are the fundamentals of Anarchism!
Anyway--if the game isn't *too* linear, I think players can always think of something. Sometimes, it is disheartening, sitting there, all looking at each other with your 3d models, not doing much of anything, but it gets better as time goes on. At least I think.
I agree wholeheartedly with the article--the problem game designers need to face is removing themselves from the formulaic frame of mind and thinking, 'okay, how can I relate as the player?'
Many games *do* give you an awkward disconnect from your avatar. But when it's executed masterfully, or even if it's just well-done, the game instantly feels a thousand times better. Even games like Animal Crossing; it feels like *your* village, *your* house, that *you* are building up and decorating. You don't say, 'he got a royal couch,' you say '*I* got a royal couch, and it looks good in *my* house.'
I think even the most 'typical' of the high-end MMORPGs, like Everquest, have room for this. I disagree that the game mechanics make the players unable to fully roleplay, though. Did The Escapist not have several articles about manufactured gameplay in EVE Online?
Indeed, one could argue that so-called 'manufactured gameplay' is the *only* way to let players do what they want. That is, to create a game with a ruleset, but a--here it comes--paidia so effectively set-up that it *is* a sandbox. I mean, think about it--why can't you really roleplay in Super Mario Brothers 3? You can barely even move two directions. Now think about real life, where physical games are created all the time. Most of the time, these can be done 'without restrictions;' without adhering to some, "oh, we can't trade items," or "yeah, Earth doesn't have pencils' rule. EVE Online had a bunch of people deciding they wanted to do something, and even though everyone else 'could' theoretically do 'anything' to *them* (ie, the neutral outpost in space), they didn't.
Why? People underestimate trust and cooperation. These are the fundamentals of Wikipedia. Hell, these are the fundamentals of Anarchism!
Anyway--if the game isn't *too* linear, I think players can always think of something. Sometimes, it is disheartening, sitting there, all looking at each other with your 3d models, not doing much of anything, but it gets better as time goes on. At least I think.
Original Comment by: ContraContrarian
"The saga of Lady Twilight, her Order, and the Legion that destroyed it but then died itself, will never really be told. It's just another story that doesn't have an ending, a myth whose gods have died leaving only their dreams behind."
That's truly remarkable. If I was to *try* to write something pretentious, I couldn't have done better than this article. I could go on and on, with examples but really, I'd end up quoting just about the whole thing.
Which is too bad, because the author has a point. I play both p&p and WoW with the same folks. One is a storytelling and roleplaying experience; the other is a fun game. We've had a couple moments in WoW which almost broke the barrier, but in the end, the world is too static.
But let's not mythologize our own hack writing, either.
"The saga of Lady Twilight, her Order, and the Legion that destroyed it but then died itself, will never really be told. It's just another story that doesn't have an ending, a myth whose gods have died leaving only their dreams behind."
That's truly remarkable. If I was to *try* to write something pretentious, I couldn't have done better than this article. I could go on and on, with examples but really, I'd end up quoting just about the whole thing.
Which is too bad, because the author has a point. I play both p&p and WoW with the same folks. One is a storytelling and roleplaying experience; the other is a fun game. We've had a couple moments in WoW which almost broke the barrier, but in the end, the world is too static.
But let's not mythologize our own hack writing, either.
Original Comment by: John Tynes
There's no shortage of hack writing out there, from yours truly or others. But honest to God, as I was pouring over the Mithril Twilight website for the first time and piecing together the story of what happened to the whole project, I was genuinely moved at the larger notion of this history of a campaign that failed. That was the source of the emotion I put into the piece.
There's no shortage of hack writing out there, from yours truly or others. But honest to God, as I was pouring over the Mithril Twilight website for the first time and piecing together the story of what happened to the whole project, I was genuinely moved at the larger notion of this history of a campaign that failed. That was the source of the emotion I put into the piece.
Original Comment by: ContraContrarian
Then I'll eat my spirit-of-Scrooge channeled words.
The real question is what to do about it? How can you on one hand obtain true suspension of disbelief, while on the other hand watch the uber-monster you just killed respawn or the plague-tainted deer you just cured come right back again because the next person in line wants to do the quest?
A DM puts a framework in place and tweaks and adjusts things based on what resonates with the players. And that means much more than just the usual be nice/be mean choices that computer RPGs give you. Planescape came close, but the end was foretold before you started.
Real flexibility and real choices mean that the world gets altered because of the player's actions. Those alterations aren't always good. In fact, for dramatic tension, they're often bad. I've seen an attempt to play something like this out in EQ2 - anyone remember the plague? The idea was that everyone could contribute to cure it, but it didn't work out that way. Really, only Uber-guilds had a chance at it, while everyone else turned green and coughed. Not heroic.
Even if the world-changes were completely scripted (like the Searing in Guild Wars) that would be an improvement in terms of storytelling, but the population segmentation approach (as in GW) isn't a great solution, and doesn't address the roleplaying aspect at all.
Any great ideas for the MMORPG developers so we don't have to let more gods die?
Then I'll eat my spirit-of-Scrooge channeled words.
The real question is what to do about it? How can you on one hand obtain true suspension of disbelief, while on the other hand watch the uber-monster you just killed respawn or the plague-tainted deer you just cured come right back again because the next person in line wants to do the quest?
A DM puts a framework in place and tweaks and adjusts things based on what resonates with the players. And that means much more than just the usual be nice/be mean choices that computer RPGs give you. Planescape came close, but the end was foretold before you started.
Real flexibility and real choices mean that the world gets altered because of the player's actions. Those alterations aren't always good. In fact, for dramatic tension, they're often bad. I've seen an attempt to play something like this out in EQ2 - anyone remember the plague? The idea was that everyone could contribute to cure it, but it didn't work out that way. Really, only Uber-guilds had a chance at it, while everyone else turned green and coughed. Not heroic.
Even if the world-changes were completely scripted (like the Searing in Guild Wars) that would be an improvement in terms of storytelling, but the population segmentation approach (as in GW) isn't a great solution, and doesn't address the roleplaying aspect at all.
Any great ideas for the MMORPG developers so we don't have to let more gods die?
Original Comment by: Seasought
A worthwhile article.
Where there are players there is always hope for RP.
A worthwhile article.
Where there are players there is always hope for RP.
Original Comment by: Voxaryx
I would just like to point out that there is an existing option for those who wish to roleplay in a multiplayer environment: NeverwinterNights Persistent Worlds. Absolutely anyone can create their own world from scratch using the included toolset, set up their own rules, create their own mythology, host it on a server, and let people in to play. I personally don't have much experience with them, but I hardly ever get to talk to my best friend anymore because he's so busy playing on The Three Kingdoms (http://www.3kds.com/) all the time.
This is perfect for people like Eversong, because they can create the stories and mythologies they want, and craft the world to their liking, and stay in total control. Unlike WoW and all the rest, where the suits make all the decisions, NWN Persistent Worlds are owned and run by the players, and are absolutely free. *This* is the future of online RP.
I would just like to point out that there is an existing option for those who wish to roleplay in a multiplayer environment: NeverwinterNights Persistent Worlds. Absolutely anyone can create their own world from scratch using the included toolset, set up their own rules, create their own mythology, host it on a server, and let people in to play. I personally don't have much experience with them, but I hardly ever get to talk to my best friend anymore because he's so busy playing on The Three Kingdoms (http://www.3kds.com/) all the time.
This is perfect for people like Eversong, because they can create the stories and mythologies they want, and craft the world to their liking, and stay in total control. Unlike WoW and all the rest, where the suits make all the decisions, NWN Persistent Worlds are owned and run by the players, and are absolutely free. *This* is the future of online RP.
Original Comment by: Cole_SAH
I really enjoyed the stuff at the beginning concerning this game you ran, where can I get more details on that? The link didnt seem to help me.
I really enjoyed the stuff at the beginning concerning this game you ran, where can I get more details on that? The link didnt seem to help me.
Original Comment by: Cole_SAH
Well I feel stupid, I just went back and looked it over again and saw it. Well dang, now I have to find a copy of that product. Have you done any other adventures/scenarios?
Well I feel stupid, I just went back and looked it over again and saw it. Well dang, now I have to find a copy of that product. Have you done any other adventures/scenarios?
Original Comment by: John Tynes
Hi Cole,
I wrote many gaming scenarios over the years. If you search for "John Tynes" at Amazon.com you'll find a fat list of stuff I worked on.
Hi Cole,
I wrote many gaming scenarios over the years. If you search for "John Tynes" at Amazon.com you'll find a fat list of stuff I worked on.