Bruce Nielson"Are your avid fans your best fans?" Bruce Nielson looks at how modern games with content creation tools often have the same expectation of support as expensive professional development tools.
Issue 31 - Show Me the Money
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
- Start date
Original Comment by: Monkey
Why on earth is did you mention the HP thing? It is not at all true. I have plyed on NWN PW servers for two years and relogging has never reset HP to full.
As you apparently are a NWN enthusiast having made a module, you should know better. Shame on you.
This is the second article I have read at this site about NWN and both have inconsistencies and half truths.
Why on earth is did you mention the HP thing? It is not at all true. I have plyed on NWN PW servers for two years and relogging has never reset HP to full.
As you apparently are a NWN enthusiast having made a module, you should know better. Shame on you.
This is the second article I have read at this site about NWN and both have inconsistencies and half truths.
Original Comment by: Lanessar
http://www.depoetica.org
Just as a note, the problem mentioned by players for a "persistent world" community is solved by Bioware.
Bioware added a DBase function with Hordes of the Underdark. It records whatever information you wish for persistency... location, hit points, spells used, whatever.
And if you cannot write the code yourself to utilize these functions, guess what? The community has done so already, at no cost, with very simple setup instructions.
Persistent locations, for example, were added in about 15 minutes by following a simple readme.
I've been running a persistent world for three years, and the only complaint I have about Bioware as with the basic engine and not having the foresight to code stuff into the "hard code" which solves certain problems, but I am by no means "rabid" about it.
That and the fact that guys in their mom's basements (CODI, DLA) can somehow manage to produce better models and modules than "paid professionals" in this business. With millions of dollars in revenue, the fact that the models released for the last game are simply horrible compared to what a fan can produce in the same amount of time for no pay seems a bit strange.
For your VB analogy, imagine someone releasing .net framework functionality for free on a website, working solo and so forth.
But I think the real problem for what you mention in this article is simply users who are illiterate, unable to even read or folllow basic instructions, or just wanting everything done for them.
http://www.depoetica.org
Just as a note, the problem mentioned by players for a "persistent world" community is solved by Bioware.
Bioware added a DBase function with Hordes of the Underdark. It records whatever information you wish for persistency... location, hit points, spells used, whatever.
And if you cannot write the code yourself to utilize these functions, guess what? The community has done so already, at no cost, with very simple setup instructions.
Persistent locations, for example, were added in about 15 minutes by following a simple readme.
I've been running a persistent world for three years, and the only complaint I have about Bioware as with the basic engine and not having the foresight to code stuff into the "hard code" which solves certain problems, but I am by no means "rabid" about it.
That and the fact that guys in their mom's basements (CODI, DLA) can somehow manage to produce better models and modules than "paid professionals" in this business. With millions of dollars in revenue, the fact that the models released for the last game are simply horrible compared to what a fan can produce in the same amount of time for no pay seems a bit strange.
For your VB analogy, imagine someone releasing .net framework functionality for free on a website, working solo and so forth.
But I think the real problem for what you mention in this article is simply users who are illiterate, unable to even read or folllow basic instructions, or just wanting everything done for them.
Original Comment by: Cael
http://www.edgecase.net/devsite
"For your VB analogy, imagine someone releasing .net framework functionality for free on a website, working solo and so forth."
http://www.go-mono.org/
You were saying?
http://www.edgecase.net/devsite
"For your VB analogy, imagine someone releasing .net framework functionality for free on a website, working solo and so forth."
http://www.go-mono.org/
You were saying?
Original Comment by: JFK
http://www.lazygenius.com
This was an idea I had one day, when I realized NWN was slowly dying . . .
The problem is one of continued income from an aging game. How can a game company, such as Bioware, continue to support a product after its normal lifespan has been reached? Clearly, some form of income from this product needs to be generated to offset the costs. Not only must Bioware have income, but Atari/Hasbro, WoTC, and whomever else is involved must receive income too. One possibility is the licensing of 'Official' gameworlds. There could be two forms of license. The first is a General License, which allows the holder to run a generic world of their own devising, and charge players to play. The initial cost is $500.00, and monthly fees are between $25 -$30. The second is a Campaign Setting License, which allows the holder to run a specific world based on a licensed campaign setting, such as Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. Note that a Campaign Setting License requires many more obligations and more criteria must be met to qualify the gameworld. A Campaign Setting License has an initial fee of $750.00, and a monthly fee of $50.00 to operate. Note: The above monthly fees are per server. If more than one server is used for a gameworld, more than one license must be obtained. Player fees are set strictly by the license owner.
Unlicensed PWs can continue to operate just as they do now, with no fees or 'donations' of any kind, of course.
Bioware and Atari( and WOTC/Hasbro) agree to this:
An individual or group may apply for a limited license of NWN ownership. This license gives the holder the rights to charge whatever they wish for their PW or gameworld. To obtain the license, the applicant must pay a one time fee, and meet all the criteria set forth by the above groups. Adherence to this criteria must be continually met, or the license may be revoked. A monthly fee of 20 dollars will be generated for as long as the license is owned. A license may be ended at any point, but the current month and the following month's fees will still apply. A license holder will have certain obligations they must meet beyond the fees, to be detailed below.
Owner obligations:
All sites must bear the official banner and seal, and a statement verifying that they are licensed, and what that means. There must be no special treatment of players or their characters because of monetary donations, etc. All fees must be payed in advance, monthly. Owners must police their own games, and enforce their own rules.
Benefits:
Licensed sites get to display the banner, and can charge their players. Note that charging players means you'd better deliver a good game, or you will have license fees and no income to offset them. Unlicensed PWs can continue to operate just as they do now, with no fees or 'donations' of any kind, of course. If you feel your world is good enough, apply for a license and start making payments. Maybe you can generate enough player income to offset it. It doesn't matter either way, as long as the fees are payed to Bioware, etc...
Other benefits may include such things as participation in licensed world-wide campaigns, promotion, etc.
Why this might work:
PW owners must pay to run their worlds. The costs either come from their own pockets or those of the players. It is illegal to charge players to use NWN, so there is a problem. If the PW owner could charge enough to offset his/her costs, they could continue running the PW, and players would continue buying/upgrading NWN. The owner who manages this is just getting by, as they need more now for the licensing fees. This setup forces an owner to provide a PW that is so good, the players are willing to pay enough that all fees, including the monthly license fees, are covered. Of course, the very best PWs might even turn a profit.
However, if a PW has enough players, the player fees could be very low. If the monthly license fee is $30.00, and the PW has 50 players, a fee of $5/month generates $250.00 - $30.00 = $220.00. Server space and other costs to run the PW might total $100.00/month, leaving $120.00 profit for the owner. That is with only 50 paying players, a low estimate for any PW good enough to be licensed and charge a fee. The game companies, meanwhile, receive the initial $500.00, and $30.00/month. That $360.00/year x the number of licensees! If there were 1000 licensed PWs, that would be $360,000/year from the monthly fees, plus $500,000 for the initial fee! Maybe there would not be that many servers willing to pay and be licensed, but consider the fact that a good enough server turns the owner a profit too. Many people would be attracted to the idea of running a great server, and making $100+ a month to do it.
This idea might be outlandish for NWN, but perhaps in the future game companies will adopt something similar. It might continue generating income long after a game has passed its 'normal lifespan.'
JFK
http://www.lazygenius.com
This was an idea I had one day, when I realized NWN was slowly dying . . .
The problem is one of continued income from an aging game. How can a game company, such as Bioware, continue to support a product after its normal lifespan has been reached? Clearly, some form of income from this product needs to be generated to offset the costs. Not only must Bioware have income, but Atari/Hasbro, WoTC, and whomever else is involved must receive income too. One possibility is the licensing of 'Official' gameworlds. There could be two forms of license. The first is a General License, which allows the holder to run a generic world of their own devising, and charge players to play. The initial cost is $500.00, and monthly fees are between $25 -$30. The second is a Campaign Setting License, which allows the holder to run a specific world based on a licensed campaign setting, such as Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. Note that a Campaign Setting License requires many more obligations and more criteria must be met to qualify the gameworld. A Campaign Setting License has an initial fee of $750.00, and a monthly fee of $50.00 to operate. Note: The above monthly fees are per server. If more than one server is used for a gameworld, more than one license must be obtained. Player fees are set strictly by the license owner.
Unlicensed PWs can continue to operate just as they do now, with no fees or 'donations' of any kind, of course.
Bioware and Atari( and WOTC/Hasbro) agree to this:
An individual or group may apply for a limited license of NWN ownership. This license gives the holder the rights to charge whatever they wish for their PW or gameworld. To obtain the license, the applicant must pay a one time fee, and meet all the criteria set forth by the above groups. Adherence to this criteria must be continually met, or the license may be revoked. A monthly fee of 20 dollars will be generated for as long as the license is owned. A license may be ended at any point, but the current month and the following month's fees will still apply. A license holder will have certain obligations they must meet beyond the fees, to be detailed below.
Owner obligations:
All sites must bear the official banner and seal, and a statement verifying that they are licensed, and what that means. There must be no special treatment of players or their characters because of monetary donations, etc. All fees must be payed in advance, monthly. Owners must police their own games, and enforce their own rules.
Benefits:
Licensed sites get to display the banner, and can charge their players. Note that charging players means you'd better deliver a good game, or you will have license fees and no income to offset them. Unlicensed PWs can continue to operate just as they do now, with no fees or 'donations' of any kind, of course. If you feel your world is good enough, apply for a license and start making payments. Maybe you can generate enough player income to offset it. It doesn't matter either way, as long as the fees are payed to Bioware, etc...
Other benefits may include such things as participation in licensed world-wide campaigns, promotion, etc.
Why this might work:
PW owners must pay to run their worlds. The costs either come from their own pockets or those of the players. It is illegal to charge players to use NWN, so there is a problem. If the PW owner could charge enough to offset his/her costs, they could continue running the PW, and players would continue buying/upgrading NWN. The owner who manages this is just getting by, as they need more now for the licensing fees. This setup forces an owner to provide a PW that is so good, the players are willing to pay enough that all fees, including the monthly license fees, are covered. Of course, the very best PWs might even turn a profit.
However, if a PW has enough players, the player fees could be very low. If the monthly license fee is $30.00, and the PW has 50 players, a fee of $5/month generates $250.00 - $30.00 = $220.00. Server space and other costs to run the PW might total $100.00/month, leaving $120.00 profit for the owner. That is with only 50 paying players, a low estimate for any PW good enough to be licensed and charge a fee. The game companies, meanwhile, receive the initial $500.00, and $30.00/month. That $360.00/year x the number of licensees! If there were 1000 licensed PWs, that would be $360,000/year from the monthly fees, plus $500,000 for the initial fee! Maybe there would not be that many servers willing to pay and be licensed, but consider the fact that a good enough server turns the owner a profit too. Many people would be attracted to the idea of running a great server, and making $100+ a month to do it.
This idea might be outlandish for NWN, but perhaps in the future game companies will adopt something similar. It might continue generating income long after a game has passed its 'normal lifespan.'
JFK
Original Comment by: bnielson
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
Hi Monkey,
Allow me to set the record straight:
"Why on earth is did you mention the HP thing? It is not at all true. ">> I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. I am reporting a real life conversation that happened a while back on the NWN forums. That was why I included the link. Go back and read it for yourself. It was all to make a point.
And by the way, it's still that way in NWN. If you logout and back in your HP returns to full. However, persistent worlds now use the database included (GO BIOWARE!) to custom script this problem away.
"As you apparently are a NWN enthusiast having made a module, you should know better. Shame on you. ">> Can't believe I got a "shame on you" over this. Must be doing something right!
No seriously, you just responded too soon. It happens. Don't feel bad.
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
Hi Monkey,
Allow me to set the record straight:
"Why on earth is did you mention the HP thing? It is not at all true. ">> I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. I am reporting a real life conversation that happened a while back on the NWN forums. That was why I included the link. Go back and read it for yourself. It was all to make a point.
And by the way, it's still that way in NWN. If you logout and back in your HP returns to full. However, persistent worlds now use the database included (GO BIOWARE!) to custom script this problem away.
"As you apparently are a NWN enthusiast having made a module, you should know better. Shame on you. ">> Can't believe I got a "shame on you" over this. Must be doing something right!
No seriously, you just responded too soon. It happens. Don't feel bad.
Original Comment by: bnielson
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
JFK,
I really like your idea. I actually had a similar one, but didn't get enough allotment of words to bring it up in the article. But it's exactly ideas like this that I was hoping to stimulate via the article. I once read on the Bioware forums a post from a guy asking if he can charge to DM people. Obviously most people wouldn't want to pay for a DMed adventure... but then again, if the price was right and it was good enough...
Honestly, allowing content creators to make money will probably eventually lead to the game creators making money. It's just a matter of figuring out how to do it right so that every one comes out ahead.
I wanted to mention Second Life in my article as well. I think we have another good example there of how to make money in a game by allowing the content creators to make money.
Honestly, I personally will probably never try to make money out of my hobby. I just don't have the time or inclination. But there are obviously people out there that would and it would pay for the whole hobby while also providing better content for the players. Furthermore, because people have to get a name for themselves before they could realistically start charging, most likely they would have to create a lot of free content first... thus I would expect that the amount of free content available would increase as well.
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
JFK,
I really like your idea. I actually had a similar one, but didn't get enough allotment of words to bring it up in the article. But it's exactly ideas like this that I was hoping to stimulate via the article. I once read on the Bioware forums a post from a guy asking if he can charge to DM people.
Obviously most people wouldn't want to pay for a DMed adventure... but then again, if the price was right and it was good enough... Honestly, allowing content creators to make money will probably eventually lead to the game creators making money. It's just a matter of figuring out how to do it right so that every one comes out ahead.
I wanted to mention Second Life in my article as well. I think we have another good example there of how to make money in a game by allowing the content creators to make money.
Honestly, I personally will probably never try to make money out of my hobby. I just don't have the time or inclination. But there are obviously people out there that would and it would pay for the whole hobby while also providing better content for the players. Furthermore, because people have to get a name for themselves before they could realistically start charging, most likely they would have to create a lot of free content first... thus I would expect that the amount of free content available would increase as well.
Original Comment by: Monkey
Thanks for the response Bruce.
What I objected to was not that the conversation took place but rather that this is not really an issue for NWN. Admittedly every game has its shortcomings but HP reset is not one of them for NWN.
Over the past few years, I have visited multiple PWs and none of them have had an HP reset problem.
I have a strong dislike of misinformation and to mention a problem that has actually been fixed and does not impact the PW in a current article only misleads. I think using a current, as yet unresolved, problem as an example would be a better choice.
For me, all this stems from a frustration that too many folks only see NWN as a fire-and-forget single player game rather than realizing its true potential (i.e. toolset, DM client etc.)
Thanks for the response Bruce.
What I objected to was not that the conversation took place but rather that this is not really an issue for NWN. Admittedly every game has its shortcomings but HP reset is not one of them for NWN.
Over the past few years, I have visited multiple PWs and none of them have had an HP reset problem.
I have a strong dislike of misinformation and to mention a problem that has actually been fixed and does not impact the PW in a current article only misleads. I think using a current, as yet unresolved, problem as an example would be a better choice.
For me, all this stems from a frustration that too many folks only see NWN as a fire-and-forget single player game rather than realizing its true potential (i.e. toolset, DM client etc.)
Original Comment by: bnielson
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
Hi Again Monkey,
Thanks for the civil response. I hear you on being frustrated that too many people only see NWN as a single player game. (Though read my interview with Jay and you'll find that most players of NWN have tried multiplayer out at least once.)
In any case, please keep in mind that I was limited to 1000 words (which I went slightly over) and so I had to chop out absolutely every last thing from the article that wasn't specific to the main point. Also, I spent hours searching for examples and I kept coming back to this one as the best example to make the point that I wanted to make. Finding an example that wasn't "solved" yet would have been better... but only if it also had been brought up on a forum so I could quote it, was a good example of avid fans wanting long term support (and claiming that they deserved it), and Bioware had responded to it. Let's face it - It's hard to find an example that fits all those criteria so I hope you'll cut me some slack on this. I only found this example because I happened to have responded to it myself.
Also, I'm afraid I disagree with you that this example somehow denegrated NWN. I believe we'll have to agree to disagree on this if you feel otherwise. But agreeing to disagree is okay too.
In any case, thanks for taking an interest in the article and bothering to respond.
http://www.onlineroleplayer.com
Hi Again Monkey,
Thanks for the civil response. I hear you on being frustrated that too many people only see NWN as a single player game. (Though read my interview with Jay and you'll find that most players of NWN have tried multiplayer out at least once.)
In any case, please keep in mind that I was limited to 1000 words (which I went slightly over) and so I had to chop out absolutely every last thing from the article that wasn't specific to the main point. Also, I spent hours searching for examples and I kept coming back to this one as the best example to make the point that I wanted to make. Finding an example that wasn't "solved" yet would have been better... but only if it also had been brought up on a forum so I could quote it, was a good example of avid fans wanting long term support (and claiming that they deserved it), and Bioware had responded to it. Let's face it - It's hard to find an example that fits all those criteria so I hope you'll cut me some slack on this. I only found this example because I happened to have responded to it myself.
Also, I'm afraid I disagree with you that this example somehow denegrated NWN. I believe we'll have to agree to disagree on this if you feel otherwise. But agreeing to disagree is okay too.
In any case, thanks for taking an interest in the article and bothering to respond.