John SzczepaniakIn Japan, there's another face of independent development that doesn't have a direct parallel in the west. John Szczepaniak looks at the world of doujin soft.
Issue 44 - Doujin A Go Go, Baby!
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
- Start date
In the article, John had a direct download option for Doukutsu Monogatari along with an alternate link for the website (which is, of course, in Japanese). I went with the website link because linking to file downloads from the articles is something we try to avoid, but if you're looking for the direct download, you can find it here [http://homepage2.nifty.com/rochet/storage/dou_1006.zip] [ZIP]
Original Comment by: Mark
http://frontal-lobe.net
I'm a fan of more than a few of these freeware games mentioned, and it's good to see them getting some attention. Especially Doukutsu Monogatari, which, rumor has it, has been pikced up for a port to the PSP [http://www.variantinteractive.com/en-eu/games/variant/cs/index.php/]. And there's some confusion surrounding what's happening with it, but....
Anyway. The article mentions independent (freeware or commercial) games that use other companies' modern IP. Is that legal?
http://frontal-lobe.net
I'm a fan of more than a few of these freeware games mentioned, and it's good to see them getting some attention. Especially Doukutsu Monogatari, which, rumor has it, has been pikced up for a port to the PSP [http://www.variantinteractive.com/en-eu/games/variant/cs/index.php/]. And there's some confusion surrounding what's happening with it, but....
Anyway. The article mentions independent (freeware or commercial) games that use other companies' modern IP. Is that legal?
Original Comment by: Szczepaniak
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
It's not strictly legal, no. Such as the Gunners Heart game, which uses Atlus IP. I believe there's also a Ragnarok doujinsoft. But most Japanese devcos don't seem to mind, or at least they turn a blind eye, even when the game is sold for profit, since they normally deal with old games not still supported. Skygunner in this case, as opposed to Mario or Goemon.
It also re-invigorates interest in these old titles, it's like free advertising. It's an odd, though fascinating situation.
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
It's not strictly legal, no. Such as the Gunners Heart game, which uses Atlus IP. I believe there's also a Ragnarok doujinsoft. But most Japanese devcos don't seem to mind, or at least they turn a blind eye, even when the game is sold for profit, since they normally deal with old games not still supported. Skygunner in this case, as opposed to Mario or Goemon.
It also re-invigorates interest in these old titles, it's like free advertising. It's an odd, though fascinating situation.
Original Comment by: Mark
I see.
I ask because some time ago, I was involved in a project [http://specter24.proboards44.com/] (currently dormant) whose ultimate goal was a quality freeware game involving a re-imagining of the Mario IP. Legal issues came up at some point, and were never really answered.
I see.
I ask because some time ago, I was involved in a project [http://specter24.proboards44.com/] (currently dormant) whose ultimate goal was a quality freeware game involving a re-imagining of the Mario IP. Legal issues came up at some point, and were never really answered.
Original Comment by: Szczepaniak
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
Sorry to hear about your problems... Otherwise, interesting. Was it the American legal department which contacted you?
I know someone in the USA was trying to remake Ocarina of Time in the style of LttP on SNES, and he ran into legal problems as well.
Maybe it's because the Western branches of companies handle things differently, or maybe because the IP that is re-used tends to not be massively popular or directly in the spotlight? It could be the companies involved. I sadly can't say, not without speaking to them at least.
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
Sorry to hear about your problems... Otherwise, interesting. Was it the American legal department which contacted you?
I know someone in the USA was trying to remake Ocarina of Time in the style of LttP on SNES, and he ran into legal problems as well.
Maybe it's because the Western branches of companies handle things differently, or maybe because the IP that is re-used tends to not be massively popular or directly in the spotlight? It could be the companies involved. I sadly can't say, not without speaking to them at least.
Original Comment by: Shih Tzu
http://www.flammie.net/vse/
My understanding is that companies in Japan tend to look the other way, although I couldn't say for sure why. Possibly they don't mind as long as IP-infringing fan-created games/comics stick to their own little subculture of niche shops and nerd conventions?
Western fan projects tend to run into trouble more often -- witness the death of The Silver Lining [http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/] (nee King's Quest IX) back on its feet. And these were just freeware projects -- if they had been put up for sale I imagine someone might've been sued.
Oddly enough, fan translation projects of old games haven't attracted any legal threats that I've heard of. Maybe it's the fact that they're almost always distributed as patches? I couldn't say, though.
http://www.flammie.net/vse/
My understanding is that companies in Japan tend to look the other way, although I couldn't say for sure why. Possibly they don't mind as long as IP-infringing fan-created games/comics stick to their own little subculture of niche shops and nerd conventions?
Western fan projects tend to run into trouble more often -- witness the death of The Silver Lining [http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/] (nee King's Quest IX) back on its feet. And these were just freeware projects -- if they had been put up for sale I imagine someone might've been sued.
Oddly enough, fan translation projects of old games haven't attracted any legal threats that I've heard of. Maybe it's the fact that they're almost always distributed as patches? I couldn't say, though.
Original Comment by: Mark
We didn't have contact from a legal department. We just didn't know anything about whether it was legal, and a general lack of interest and time among the members killed it before it ever became an issue. (Not that I wouldn't like to see it active again.)
We didn't have contact from a legal department. We just didn't know anything about whether it was legal, and a general lack of interest and time among the members killed it before it ever became an issue. (Not that I wouldn't like to see it active again.)
Original Comment by: gman
http://greggman.com
I'm pretty sure Doujin refers specifically to using someone else's characters. Doujin literally means "same person". That means games like Every Extend are not doujin. In fact if you go to most doijin artists websites they will have separate sections for artwork that is doujin (fan art of commerical characters) and art bassed on original characters.
Being that doujin is based on copied characters the most common doujin products are sex based fantasies of the women in popular Japanese media. DOA girls, FF girls, EVA girls are all extremely popular. I'd even go so far to say that 90% of the doujin material out there is sexual comics (manga) featuring popular characters. Go into any of the stores that support doujin media and the non sexually oriented section will be puny compared to the rest of the store. This includes Melonbooks as mentioned in the article as well as Toranoana, KBooks, DLsite, and many others that support this subculture here in Japan.
As for looking the other way, well, being that 90% of it is sexually oriented it's certainly not a market the publishers themselves could get into without causing some problems so as long as it says there, at least here in Japan IP owners seem to look the other way. As soon as someone started making serious money though and/or tried to make something none sexually oriented (ie, a mass market product) I'm sure they would clamp down on it.
ps: google for those stores I mentioned of you are curious but be aware they are full of explicit materials
http://greggman.com
I'm pretty sure Doujin refers specifically to using someone else's characters. Doujin literally means "same person". That means games like Every Extend are not doujin. In fact if you go to most doijin artists websites they will have separate sections for artwork that is doujin (fan art of commerical characters) and art bassed on original characters.
Being that doujin is based on copied characters the most common doujin products are sex based fantasies of the women in popular Japanese media. DOA girls, FF girls, EVA girls are all extremely popular. I'd even go so far to say that 90% of the doujin material out there is sexual comics (manga) featuring popular characters. Go into any of the stores that support doujin media and the non sexually oriented section will be puny compared to the rest of the store. This includes Melonbooks as mentioned in the article as well as Toranoana, KBooks, DLsite, and many others that support this subculture here in Japan.
As for looking the other way, well, being that 90% of it is sexually oriented it's certainly not a market the publishers themselves could get into without causing some problems so as long as it says there, at least here in Japan IP owners seem to look the other way. As soon as someone started making serious money though and/or tried to make something none sexually oriented (ie, a mass market product) I'm sure they would clamp down on it.
ps: google for those stores I mentioned of you are curious but be aware they are full of explicit materials
Original Comment by: Szczepaniak
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
Gman said:
***
I'm pretty sure Doujin refers specifically to using someone else's characters. Doujin literally means "same person". That means games like Every Extend are not doujin.
***
I am sorry, but that is completely incorrect. "Doujin" refers to Japanese homemade creations, or "self published works" as Wikipedia and other sources like to put it.
I know this, the two experts I spoke to (Mr Chaz and Mr Roni) know this, my Japanese translator Andrew ?Shih Tzu? Davis knows this, and a variety of other people involved in the scene know this, and officially, by those who play the games, titles such as "Warning Forever" and the other games mentioned, are most definately regarded as and classified as "doujin software". In fact, looking at Himeya's doujinsoft section, shows a variety of titles which are entirely new IP.
My analysis and description was 100% correct.
As for the hentai element, I never tried to say there weren't any sex based doujinsoft. I mention them openly, as does Insert Credit's Chaz. Hell, the article even ends on a joke about them. Did you read the full thing?
But anyway, websites such as Doujinaroni, and Insert Credit, do their best to filter out the better, "cleaner" titles, and them inform the public of them. It's not difficult to avoid the hentai games. For anyone interested in the doujinsoft world, being aware of them and knowing the best places to find information and the actual games, makes it a non-issue.
There's no need to google anything, and I didn't want to ruin an article on what is an otherwise fascinating element of the industry, by harping on about the explicit titles available. There's more than enough family friendly content to get stuck into. Being a follower of doujin games, and using the resources mentioned, I've never been forced to wade through any explicit material. Your claim about % I feel is off. And not all doujin games that use another's IP are hentai based.
Your entire post is very misleading for anyone curious about doujin games, and in my opinion, panders shamelessly to cliches, stereotypes, and forum board hyperbole.
http://www.retrosurvival.co.uk/
Gman said:
***
I'm pretty sure Doujin refers specifically to using someone else's characters. Doujin literally means "same person". That means games like Every Extend are not doujin.
***
I am sorry, but that is completely incorrect. "Doujin" refers to Japanese homemade creations, or "self published works" as Wikipedia and other sources like to put it.
I know this, the two experts I spoke to (Mr Chaz and Mr Roni) know this, my Japanese translator Andrew ?Shih Tzu? Davis knows this, and a variety of other people involved in the scene know this, and officially, by those who play the games, titles such as "Warning Forever" and the other games mentioned, are most definately regarded as and classified as "doujin software". In fact, looking at Himeya's doujinsoft section, shows a variety of titles which are entirely new IP.
My analysis and description was 100% correct.
As for the hentai element, I never tried to say there weren't any sex based doujinsoft. I mention them openly, as does Insert Credit's Chaz. Hell, the article even ends on a joke about them. Did you read the full thing?
But anyway, websites such as Doujinaroni, and Insert Credit, do their best to filter out the better, "cleaner" titles, and them inform the public of them. It's not difficult to avoid the hentai games. For anyone interested in the doujinsoft world, being aware of them and knowing the best places to find information and the actual games, makes it a non-issue.
There's no need to google anything, and I didn't want to ruin an article on what is an otherwise fascinating element of the industry, by harping on about the explicit titles available. There's more than enough family friendly content to get stuck into. Being a follower of doujin games, and using the resources mentioned, I've never been forced to wade through any explicit material. Your claim about % I feel is off. And not all doujin games that use another's IP are hentai based.
Your entire post is very misleading for anyone curious about doujin games, and in my opinion, panders shamelessly to cliches, stereotypes, and forum board hyperbole.
Original Comment by: Gman
http://greggman.com
I stand corrected. I asked my Japanese co-workers whether doujin-soft required using someone else's IP and they said basically both "yes" and "no". Techincally it doesn't require borrowed IP but as you mentioned, most of it does use borrowed IP so to some it has come to mean that. So, you are correct.
http://greggman.com
I stand corrected. I asked my Japanese co-workers whether doujin-soft required using someone else's IP and they said basically both "yes" and "no". Techincally it doesn't require borrowed IP but as you mentioned, most of it does use borrowed IP so to some it has come to mean that. So, you are correct.
Original Comment by: 5p.
Sorry, it seems like I'm a little late to this party. Blame my work schedule + moving house.
Anyway, I'm surprised at the conspicuous absence of any mention of the Touhou games... yes, ZUN can be an arrogant prick at times, but he's also a master craftsman who does amazing work. "Shoot the Bullet" in particular is pretty damn innovative in a way I haven't seen in many other games.
Sorry, it seems like I'm a little late to this party. Blame my work schedule + moving house.
Anyway, I'm surprised at the conspicuous absence of any mention of the Touhou games... yes, ZUN can be an arrogant prick at times, but he's also a master craftsman who does amazing work. "Shoot the Bullet" in particular is pretty damn innovative in a way I haven't seen in many other games.
Original Comment by: Szczepaniak
Crikey, I stop by to see if there was any comments I missed... and there was!
As for not mentioning Touhou or "Shoot the Bullet", there's no real excuse for it. I had countless titles, groups, and people I wanted to mention and link, including hotlinking to some people even if they weren't mentioned, but a particular sentence mentioned something in relation to them.
Sadly lack of space, and the fact that an endless stream of hotlinks makes the text not look so good, all conspired to make me remove not only several brief mentions of things, but entire paragraphs. Please rest assured though, that I always quietly weep at all the text I leave on the writing-room floor. Vast swathes of words that get wiped out silently, as if they were never there. My shame is compunded by the fact that mere moments ago i was speaking with a colleague on that very game!
Crikey, I stop by to see if there was any comments I missed... and there was!
As for not mentioning Touhou or "Shoot the Bullet", there's no real excuse for it. I had countless titles, groups, and people I wanted to mention and link, including hotlinking to some people even if they weren't mentioned, but a particular sentence mentioned something in relation to them.
Sadly lack of space, and the fact that an endless stream of hotlinks makes the text not look so good, all conspired to make me remove not only several brief mentions of things, but entire paragraphs. Please rest assured though, that I always quietly weep at all the text I leave on the writing-room floor. Vast swathes of words that get wiped out silently, as if they were never there. My shame is compunded by the fact that mere moments ago i was speaking with a colleague on that very game!