Item design and mechanics in "modern" RPGs

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

Recently I've noticed a peculiar and, to me, a horrible trend in the implementation of items in RPGs. Firstly, the mechanics - any recent RPG that I've played (admittedly not many, namely Divinity: Original Sin, Diablo 3, the new expansion to WoW, DA:I (I haven't gotten far, it's mostly unplayable because of a misallocation of resources problem the game has on the PC) and as far as I know the new expansion to ToR) have a loot system that is far too random which detracts not only from the atmosphere of the game, but also the mechanics. This is most glaring in single player games like D:OS, Diablo 3 and DA:I where all items feel interchangeable and "not special enough". Even if they have a "named" item the stats on it are random. Not only that but "named" items in general are either very rarely implemented or drop completely randomly which removes the "anticipation" of getting it. It also adds an unnecessary level of "grind feeling" to the game.

I don't know exactly how to formulate the problem I have with this because it's fairly abstract and concerns the "feel" of the RPG rather than anything else. It also makes it fairly impossible to build a character around a specific set of items because you have no guarantee that you are ever going to get them or, where the loot system is ENTIRELY random, impossible to build a character around items at all. It's not only the mechanics that are at a disadvantage of course, but the unsubstantial "feel" of the items themselves. It also devalues boss loot when the bosses drop nothing unique and in turn cheapens the boss itself.

Secondly - the art design. All of the games I mentioned have a distinct lack of unique armor and weapon designs in terms of visuals. 99% of items are the same model but painted differently. (though I'm not sure about Diablo 3 since I didn't like the whole art direction of the game and only played the free trial thing Blizz have going on). Maybe this concerns budget and it probably does, but it still bugs me.

How do you feel about this? Do you think this adds "replayability" or is it because of something else? Does it bug you at all?

 

[SoreWristed]

I look at randomness in loot systems as an extra challenge, possibly unintended in that way. Random drops force you to try a new tactic every now and then, since you might find a magic item that is infinitely more powerful than your shield you currently have on. So you might give magic a try for once. To be honest, i've only encountered two games that have let me do this, and those were both elder scrolls games.

And I believe WoW have mostly adressed random drops by removing spec from gear. Unisex gear, or so to say. But, i haven't played since the day after the release of Warlords, so i can't really tell you if this spangling new system works or was even implemented.

Overall, it doesn't really bug me, if the game is built around it. Destiny, for example, has a similar system of random stats on items, except on legendary items i believe. And it doesn't bother me that someone else finds the same rifle with 1 more point to discipline than me, because down the line, i'll probably find one with 7 more points to discipline.

 

[Jandau]

Ehhh... I feel mixed about it.

First of all, I wouldn't lump Diablo 3 (and similar games) with other RPGs - in Action RPGs random loot is usually a central mechanic, usually hand in hand with randomly generated levels. Here, the quantity covers for quality, tossing such huge amounts of items at you that EVETUALLY you will likely come across what you need.

As for more "traditional" RPGs, it's a mixed bag. Completely predetermined loot can get predictable and boring. A degree of randomness is welcome. Also, it doesn't mean loot has to be 100% random - you can have a certain number of predetermined items, usually the more unique or lore-related stuff, as well as the rest being random. In fact, it's probably a better way to deal with low-grade items.

Next thing to consider are open-world games, games with respawning enemies, games with a persistent world, etc. Here random loot becomes a necessity, to complement the more open-ended nature of the game. The developers allow players more freedom, but that means that they relinquish control over the flow of the game and they can't properly plan out predetermined drops quite so well.

Finally, even with random loot it is possible to "smooth out" the randomness. Aside from the predetermined drops, there are ways to allow the player to expend known quantities of time and/or resources on more reliable rewards. A common example would be crafting, which allows players to fill gaps in their gear as needed. In fact, in some games crafted gear can outstrip dropped items, which is a problem in and of itself. For instance, Dragon Age: Inquisition has horribly overpowered crafting. I remember acquiring the "best" (as in the best premade) Two Handed Sword in the game, a legendary elvish blade reforged from ancient shards by one of the greatest smiths in the world, looking at the stats, shrugging and selling it, since my 2H Warrior had a much better custom crafted weapon.

All in all, like so many design decisions random loot isn't inherently bad or good, it's down to how it's implemented, to what extent, does it fit the game it's in and how it interacts with the other game mechanics...

 

[Fat Hippo]

I generally dislike it in single player RPG's, and prefer well-placed unique items, such as in the old infinity engine games. Baldur's Gate 2 still had the best equipment system in my opinion. Since you had 6 characters you had a ton of slots to fill with cool equipment, and the fact that you would have a bunch of classes in your party meant that most items would be useful. And if it wasn't, no big deal, just sell it and buy something cool at the Adventurer's Mart, since that place actually had some cool stuff, unlike 90% of shops in RPG's.

I also just don't like game systems which overload you with a bajillion possible status effects with percentages, to the point that a player can hardly even judge what the difference even is. And instead of finding a cool item and deciding "Hmm, would I prefer being 50% faster or having 25% physical resistance?" you're generally poring over minuscule differences like "this item has a 5.3% higher speed bonus but 2.7% less physical resistance" which I find a far less interesting decision.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

snip

I totally agree with you. Some level of randomness is needed in most RPGs and that's fine. It's when the loot starts to become overwhelmingly random (D:OS springs to mind) that I start feeling that the items are unsubstantial and lack any meaning. ARPG's like Diablo need a lot more randomness of course and that's also fine, but when the wizard set, for example, has a bajillion variations it starts to get really, really grindy and the items themselves lose much of their meaning. I don't remember the sets in Diablo 2 (Trang'oul's for example) being so random in the stat department.

WoW's new loot system is awful as well, 1 item having 3 variations (mythic, mythic warforged and mythic warforged with some random stat thrown in by the RNG fairy (and good luck trying to get the one random stat you actually need)) feels way too grindy. The worst part is that it's based on chance which version you are going to get while you know the 3rd version is the best. Though WoW's item problem is specific to WoW.

It feels like every game that I mention has a different problem with how items are handled and it's hard to make my point across. WoW has the too many versions of items, Diablo 3 has too random stats on its "named items", DA:I has the crafting thing, D:OS has completely random loot apart from a few named drops here and there (mostly weapons) and that's doubly annoying since it's a single player game (mostly). They all contribute to the unsubstantial and the "not-special-enough" feel of the items. Even if I don't actively admit it most of the time items in RPG's are a big part of a game and your character building process, and it adds depth to the world and the story. Holy Avenger from Baldur's Gate springs to mind, though there are many more examples.

Also I'm not big into crafting, but that's my problem. I like crafting when you get a specific recipe for some special item or a recipe for upgrading items to more powerful versions (with a different name and different look). Crafting consumables is fine too. It gets problematic for me when you can actively craft the best-in-slot items for every slot you have. Then dungeon crawls and bosses feel pointless and token. Except for the fun of doing it of course, but we all know we are wired to expect tangible rewards for such things It's hard to quantify and define abstract concepts like fun and inner satisfaction, so devs actively trying to model their item mechanics around that feels weird.

 

[Pyrian]

I'm not a big fan of getting enormous amounts of useless loot. But I don't mind not getting the specific loot I most want. My favorite loot system is... FTL! You don't that many items, and often you'll find that while a given item isn't exactly what you wanted, you can make do. Until you're fully equipped, most items are still better than not having an item in that slot. And you can always sell spare stuff, of course.

 

[laggyteabag]

Honestly, I kind of like random loot. Sure, not having dedicated loot sources can harm endgame content, but I just get really bored of running the same encounter over and over again in an effort to get an item that is only marginally better than what I currently have. Im more of a "Oh look, a cave, I wonder what is inside of it" kind of guy as opposed to a "I need to head to this specific cave because this guy drops this specific item that I need.", sure, you'll find a lot of trash, but when you find that hidden gem that you didn't know existed, it is a lot more interesting to me than grinding for an item.

That being said though, it could really gimp your character if RNG really isn't on your side.

 

[sanquin]

Well, I know for a fact that loot in DA:I has become pretty boring for me, while I'm usually addicted to looting. All those random packs, bodies and chests, and I know that I'll be selling 90% of it to the store anyway. I don't mind random loot, but at least make the loot interesting if you do. Not "coins, generic worthless armor piece/weapon, and some cloth."

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

Honestly, I kind of like random loot. Sure, not having dedicated loot sources can harm endgame content, but I just get really bored of running the same encounter over and over again in an effort to get an item that is only marginally better than what I currently have. Im more of a "Oh look, a cave, I wonder what is inside of it" kind of guy as opposed to a "I need to head to this specific cave because this guy drops this specific item that I need.", sure, you'll find a lot of trash, but when you find that hidden gem that you didn't know existed, it is a lot more interesting to me than grinding for an item.

That being said though, it could really gimp your character if RNG really isn't on your side.

I find that random loot devalues exploration, because you know that whatever cave (or anything else) you find will be filled with the same shitty "Fiery Sword of Generic Randomness". If that cave was a hidden sanctum of a mage trying to become a Lich and you stop it then get a special staff or robe, or even the secret to becoming a Lich yourself then the whole thing was somehow more "worth it".

 

[aozgolo]

I tend to dislike random loot, I'm okay with random loot drops... such as a boss only dropping a certain item 20% of the time or something, but only if that is repeatable to some degree (save scumming is the worst).

I recall specifically this being especially irksome in The Elder Scrolls. When I played Morrowind I enjoyed the aspect of knowing I could go to these secret places and find powerful weapons and armor way ahead of when my skill level really matched it. If you knew where to go you could find great stuff. One area that sticks out in my mind is a seemingly random cave that had a hidden tunnel going behind a waterfall that lead to this awesome forge like area that had a very powerful unique warhammer in it with a name. I love unique treasures like this that are placed in such a way to have an interesting story behind it and above all REWARD exploration. Morrowind felt so vast and huge even more-so than it's sequels despite having a smaller landmass because of this hand-placed item feel where you could find lost treasures.

Oblivion completely shattered this, replacing everything with generic levelled loot, even named items or quest rewards were "levelled" to your character guarenteeing that they became outdated and useless after a few more level-ups. It ruined the immersion, the sense of exploration, not only did all the dungeons feel very copy-pasted but there was no real incentive to go through every nook and cranny.

Skyrim made small efforts to fix this, it did away with leveled quest rewards to a degree and made all items have static stats, but the sense of exploration was recaptured through a slightly different mechanic, Shouts. It was primarily the unique word walls that made exploring fun again in Skyrim, they were never randomized, if you knew where the wall was, you could go get all the words to the shout you needed (though a small number were locked behind quest requirements).

I think it's a poor design choice to go with random loot, even in a more linear game as forcing players to repeat linear sections to farm one specific item is just awful. For more open games, non-random items gives a very "tiered" feel to the world, and encourages exploration.

Game mechanics that try to force balance are usually a bad idea, players should be able to make their own choices on how they wish to play. Just because a player knows there's a +5 Axe of Death hidden in the haystack behind the tavern in the second town doesn't mean they will always opt to make their game that easy, likewise what's the point in preventing a player who wants to just have fun and collect the best gear from doing so at their leisure and not by when the game deems it appropriate.

 

[Scow2]

Honestly, I kind of like random loot. Sure, not having dedicated loot sources can harm endgame content, but I just get really bored of running the same encounter over and over again in an effort to get an item that is only marginally better than what I currently have. Im more of a "Oh look, a cave, I wonder what is inside of it" kind of guy as opposed to a "I need to head to this specific cave because this guy drops this specific item that I need.", sure, you'll find a lot of trash, but when you find that hidden gem that you didn't know existed, it is a lot more interesting to me than grinding for an item.

That being said though, it could really gimp your character if RNG really isn't on your side.

I find that random loot devalues exploration, because you know that whatever cave (or anything else) you find will be filled with the same shitty "Fiery Sword of Generic Randomness". If that cave was a hidden sanctum of a mage trying to become a Lich and you stop it then get a special staff or robe, or even the secret to becoming a Lich yourself then the whole thing was somehow more "worth it".

A compromise I've seen is loot that's randomized, but tailored to an area - you still know where you want to go to try to find certain types of things, but you'll never know exactly what you'll get.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

snip

Yes, completely agree with you and that's what I've been trying to explain