''It's frowned upon.''

[DeathWyrmNexus]

How is empathy relevant to the discussion? You are talking logic, yet bring in arguments based solely on emotion... And bingo! Those emotions may differ from person to person.

Ooooh, I wish I had thought of that one. I like it. I shall steal it. *yoinks*

 

[open trap]

I said Merry Christmas and was told that that is offensive and i must say happy holidays.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

How is empathy relevant to the discussion? You are talking logic, yet bring in arguments based solely on emotion... And bingo! Those emotions may differ from person to person.

Ooooh, I wish I had thought of that one. I like it. I shall steal it. *yoinks*

And thanks ThrobbingEgo, now I'm terrified that whatever I say you will be casting a critical eye over it and thinking, 'Nay! That stupid wench and her fallacies!' : |

Not at all.

There's a difference between extending empathy to animals and invoking an appeal to pity. If I can suffer, and animals are capable of suffering, it is not illogical to say that I don't want animals to suffer because my fellow men and I don't like it when we suffer. Empathy, which is not the same as pity or sympathy - it is the ability to imagine something else's position and mind, is a very logical thing.

Empathy is a form of understanding, not a distraction from understanding nor an emotion.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

How is empathy relevant to the discussion? You are talking logic, yet bring in arguments based solely on emotion... And bingo! Those emotions may differ from person to person.

Ooooh, I wish I had thought of that one. I like it. I shall steal it. *yoinks*

And thanks ThrobbingEgo, now I'm terrified that whatever I say you will be casting a critical eye over it and thinking, 'Nay! That stupid wench and her fallacies!' : |

Not at all.

There's a difference between extending empathy to animals and invoking an appeal to pity. If I can suffer, and animals are capable of suffering, it is not illogical to say that I don't want animals to suffer because my fellow men and I don't like it when we suffer. Empathy, which is not the same as pity or sympathy - it is the ability to imagine something else's position and mind, is a very logical thing.

Empathy is a form of understanding, not a distraction from understanding nor an emotion.

When empathy goes overboard and makes you empathize and thus anthropomorphizing things that shouldn't be, then you aren't making decisions logically. And great... I am responding to an ego and thus the tangent continues. *sigh*

 

[s0denone]

I see you didn't read the site. There's no cereal in it at all. Just freshly made, locally grown food. The food plan itself isn't vegan, but it certainly proves that cutting out meat can be not only very cheap but healthy as well.

http://www.cookforgood.com/shopping_list_current_green.html

A balanced vegan diet is very good for your health.

The point wasn't that your link had "cereal" in it, but simply that I could, essentially, eat endless amounts of it and then top it off with some beans for protien. It is possible, but I wouldn't like it. That was my point.

I can eat a lot of cereal(Or lets say vegetables for the discussion) but I choose not to. Why? Not because I don't like veggies, since I eat them daily, but because I also want to eat other things.

Hell I could redecorate my house and grow plants in a UV-lighted room. I could grown potatoes, bananas, pieces of bread, oranges... The possibilities are endless! Only I don't really want to do that, since, you know, I have other things to use my time and money on.

You turned vegan because you felt sorry for the animals and their suffering. I don't turn vegan - not because I don't feel sorry for the animals and their suffering, but because I would rather have a steak for dinner than not have a steak for dinner. It's that simple.

You're right, you're right, you're right. It's just your comment about organic food consumption annoyed me. I apologise.

No harm, no foul.

As far as empathy being an emotion, I do not think my example shows emotional - only rational - thinking, apart from the very last step - 'OK, I won't support that market anymore', which admittedly is a mark of integrity rather than logic. However, I believe the prior steps to be quite logical. It is logical to assume the animals are having a less than fantabulous time, no?

We need to differenciate here. Regarding animal cruelty with sadness and disappointment isn't empathy. Knowing why a person is saddened and disappointed about animal cruelty is. The level people can empathise varies, and naturally also the areas in which they can agree with others. Empathy is the ability to acknowledge others and their viewpoints, seeing where they're coming from and why they think such things.

I can see why a vegan is vegan. It's obvious.
Some may not.
And again: Empathy has nothing to do with relation to suffering animals. Nobody wants animal cruelty, but those who have it happen regardless simply value money over animal health. Understanding that, my dear, is also empathy. I can see why some people would value money over the health of animals, given that these are animals we will never meet and in no way have a connection to.

Anyway... you seem to think that it is more logical to save money than it is to prevent foods covered in chemicals from entering your body, so in that instance logic also differs from person to person.

"to prevent foods covered in chemicals from entering your body"... Ehhh no.
I'm not talking about some sick, perverted way of raising animals. I'm just talking about the fact that I would rather have both a steak and veggies on my plate, rather than just veggies... Especially if it also allows me to save money.
That's the logic: I like meat, therefore I will naturally allow myself to eat meat.
The logic isn't necessarily that I save money, but rather that I do what appeals to me the most.

And thanks ThrobbingEgo, now I'm terrified that whatever I say you will be casting a critical eye over it and thinking, 'Nay! That stupid wench and her fallacies!' : |

ThrobbingEgo is a nice man with a nice cause. Everyone cannot agree though, and thank god for that.

 

[Miumaru]

Vegans seem more the way christians are. Preaching about how they are right and morally better because the rest of us prefer to enjoy things.

That's quite a bit stereotypical, we're not all like that. Only the ones you see on TV who are only on TV for being such radical Christians. Don't think we're all like that, please.

On topic, no, I really have not had anything like that happen to me.

I have met hardcore christians, and religious republicans that were actually good people. So I am aware no group is truly cookie cutter made.

 

[T-Bone24]

Can we fucking PLEASE stop with the goddamn animal rights discussion. You've all thoroughly derailed a thread I was seriously enjoying, and have now had to skip over all the great stories because of your arguing. Start a new thread, please.

Anyway, on topic, there are four kinds of people I know. Friends, people who ignore me (ie not friends), people who walk all over me (I'm far too nice for my own good) and arseholes who don't know that it's the thought that counts. Yipee for being a cynic.

Bloody hell, I sound angry here.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Not at all.

There's a difference between extending empathy to animals and invoking an appeal to pity. If I can suffer, and animals are capable of suffering, it is not illogical to say that I don't want animals to suffer because my fellow men and I don't like it when we suffer. Empathy, which is not the same as pity or sympathy - it is the ability to imagine something else's position and mind, is a very logical thing.

Empathy is a form of understanding, not a distraction from understanding nor an emotion.

When empathy goes overboard and makes you empathize and thus anthropomorphizing things that shouldn't be, then you aren't making decisions logically. And great... I am responding to an ego and thus the tangent continues. *sigh*

Where have I anthropomorphized anything? Animals can feel pain, they can suffer. I didn't say they're little furry people. Just that they can suffer and that the frivolous taste for meat does not outweigh the suffering we cause them.

They have brains and nerves. They can be harmed and even psychologically damaged. (There are, in fact, many military and psychology experiments that have attempted to, and succeeded in, psychologically damaging animals.)

What logic have I been distracted from? And what about you?

Edit: Apologies to T-Bone24.

 

[Baralak]

Though I am out of my parent's house, and they're quite respectful of my views.

Vegans seem more the way christians are. Preaching about how they are right and morally better because the rest of us prefer to enjoy things.

That's quite a bit stereotypical, we're not all like that. Only the ones you see on TV who are only on TV for being such radical Christians. Don't think we're all like that, please.

On topic, no, I really have not had anything like that happen to me.[/quote]

May not be all of ya like that, or even the majority, but it's enough to ruin the religion's reputation. Reminds me of Gandhi: "I like your Christ, he was a good man. But I do not like your Christians, because they are nothing like your Christ." Sums up my feelings perfectly, and it sums up why I'm not Christian.

OT: I can't really recall when I did a good thing and was chided/punished for it... I'll try to think of one, because I'm positive it's happened at least once!

 

[Oh That Dude]

Seems anything I do is instantly tainted to most religions since I'm bisexual. Here's 20 dollars. Wait, it came from you? AHHH, PURGE IT, IT'S DEVIL MONEY!''

Ha, this, except I wouldn't be giving money away.

Lol. *hugs*

There are more of usss tralalal!

Yes, yes there are. Tis a good way to be. I'd feel bad for the off topic-ness of this post, but looking at the rest of the thread... >.>

 

[Mydnyght]

Yeah, one day I was at at Walmart checkout. I was standing behind this lady who apaprently didn't know how one of those electronic keypad credit-card readers worked. At one point, she seemed stuck, so she was told to hit CANCEL. She was told that not just by the checkout clerk, but by that customer's companions as well. She kept saying, "I don't see CANCEL!" I kindly pointed out the CANCEL button. Instead of thanking me, she told me something on the lines of, "I'm new to this, okay, so you COOL IT!"

If you ask me, people like her should be banned from shopping. -_-

 

[blackcherry]

Oh yeah, plenty of times. A charity organisation I set up in our local town, in which all the proceeds go towards helping the mentally handicapped, has gotten a shit ton of abuse whenever it has tried to help.

One time when I get involved in a concert to raise money and awareness of certain rather stigmatized diseases. In the end I organised it far more efficiently than the event organisers themselves and ended up running it all (whilst doing 50+ hours a week or work as usual) and I thought perhaps I was helping out. Instead of gratitude or just a thanks, they fell out with me and blacklisted me because I effectivly showed them up on the organising side!

People and their pride. Sheesh!

 

[steevee]

When I point out peoples mistakes and try to help them correct them, in terms of school work I mean. I try to do it ni the nicest way, so they can learn from it, or just get better marks, but no. I'm always an asshole, then, I'm an asshole for not telling them the answers :L
Urm... ok. No, so they don't get any help anymore, simple.

Also, the animal rights thing. A lot of the pro-vegan/vegitarian stances rely on you not being an asshole. To be honest with you, it's a chicken, not a person. Not that I wouldn't eat people burgers

 

[Hurray Forums]

In middle school someone had forgotten their lunch and was complaining about it so I gave them mine and they got mad at me because they didn't like the food I had packed . He of course still ate the lunch though *grumbles unhappily*. Hungry and bitched at, not a very fun combination.

 

[General Ken8]

I do a lot of nice crap, but there haven't a whole lot of consequences.
Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones

 

[TraderJimmy]

Organic foods are more expensive.

Eating meat instead of organic food is cheaper.

Eating meat is cheaper than not eating meat.

How is that for logic? Honestly I don't care much for the discussion, but from where I'm sitting the vegans just look like people with too much money and time on their hands.

http://lifehacker.com/5271178/cook-for-good-plans-meals-for-less-than-two-dollars

I'm sorry, how is this relevant? I could eat cereal for breakfast, lunch and dinner and it would be dirt-cheap. That doesn't make it a good idea, nor something I would do.

Organic foods are more expensive.

Not eating organic foods is cheaper than eating meat.

Eating meat is cheaper than not eating meat.

How is that for logic? Honestly I don't care much for the discussion, but from where I'm sitting the vegans just look like people with too much money and time on their hands.

Too much money? Because meat is so much cheaper than vegetarian food : | We aren't talking about organic food here, genius.

It's called empathy. Being able to put yourself in someone or something else's shoes, and to think, 'Hm, how would I feel...? Not good? OK, I won't support that market anymore.' And sometimes enduring inconvenience for what you believe is a good thing, no? I would consider it a positive character trait, at any rate.

How is empathy relevant to the discussion? You are talking logic, yet bring in arguments based solely on emotion... And bingo! Those emotions may differ from person to person.

I should never have let myself be drawn into this, but I will continue as long as you do, although with a heavy heart. It will be rough, we may shed some tears, but ultimately we will come out stronger on the other side!

Still, having a healthy diet without including meat is impossible if you only have so much money to toss around. Believe you me.
I just assumed the "organic" thing, since we are talking vegan and not-vegan, and any true vegan would also only eat organic... Which is very expensive compared to other products.

EDIT: Also, no need for personal insults such as "We're not talking about that, genius" - there's no point. I'm being friendly to you, be friendly to me.

In terms of logic, the best argument I've seen for a vegetarian diet (strict vegan is...commendable, but either a little deranged, or as s0denone pointed out, dependent on a large amount of spending money) is that it's simply better use of resources. When people in parts of the world are starving due to malnutrition, it seems frivolous to spend time and money feeding up an animal in order to get around 25% of the nutrition you've given it. However, it's not that simple.



This is how it'd work in a simplistic communal world, but what we actually have to work with is a series of distinct capitalist economies, which affect each other indirectly rather than directly. So, by processing food through this cattle into a luxury object, you generate wealth and a living wage for everyone involved in the process, and thousands of people get jobs and livelihoods. It's unlikely that American companies (to take an accessible example from the developed world) would make a profit of any kind exporting corn to other countries, as they would definitely be undercut by local farmers (well, I'm assuming so. I'll concede this point of course if anyone knows of examples of this not happening). So the only way it can be an economically viable concern is to pump excess through cattle, generating profit for all involved. The problems with feeding cattle like this are detailed at length in a book I read once...I think it was Eric Schlosser's Fast Food Nation but I could be wrong. But that's a separate issue. So, produce from the West doesn't generally go to feed developing nations because it's not profitable. What you're mostly going to be buying as a casual vegetarian is food purchased from developing nations and jacked up in price by varying middlemen. This isn't particularly good for anyone - the areas surrounding the farm you're buying this food from (prices go up, albeit slightly), the environment (due to large amounts of travel), or the farmer (makes very little money compared to the Western companies selling his/her goods). The ways around this are to either drop out of the capitalist system and start some kind of commune/small farm of your own, which requires either money or a severe dose of hippyitis and dedication, or to pay extra money for locally sourced food to avoid competing for resources with the Third World. This option again requires a good income, which many people simply don't have. The point is, when vegetarian ideals are exposed to the real world, they often face a choice: dedicate a large chunk of your life, or money, to your ideals, and really bite the bullet, considering all ramifications and complexities arising from your actions, or buy into it as some kind of lifestyle choice.

The second best arguments are in Peter Singer's work, which I recommend to everyone, and are easily googlable, but you do have to accept his opening premises that sentience = moral worth. I think I'd add a certain degree of intelligence to that mix, and accept any Unfortunate Implications that came my way, given his take on meta-ethics - but then my own understanding of ethics is that it is a branch of aesthetics, so do what you want you have an anonymous stranger's permission now.

Concluding: The situation is more morally complicated and less clearcut than vegetarians generally make it out to be, at many levels of the debate. "Logical" moral choices often end up being slightly fuzzy in the real world, and you may have to remold your entire ethical stance, and indeed worldview, just to justify your vegetarianism.

And if you do want to help starving people around the world, there are easier, more direct and definite ways than vegetarianism (seriously vegans, I ain't talking to you ;P - good on yer, yer latterday monks, but you're a little unwell). www.freerice.com is waiting for you RIGHT NOW for NO COST, for instance, and conventional charities like Oxfam, Red Nose Day, Children in Need could really use your disposable income more than that organic produce farmer down the road. If you're just looking for a little boost, a portion of your money ALREADY goes to foreign countries, assuming you pay taxes - all the developed countries I can think of give a portion of their budget to foreign aid. Good job you! Now there's no need to make yourself all pale and passive-aggressive! (Joke. I like vegetarians, and plan to be one some day).

 

[rosemystica]

I used to pick up trash along a mile-long stretch of country road and people would sometimes drive by and throw more at me. D:<

 

[Gotham Soul]

Being nice to people doesn't pay off. Because the world is so full of pricks, everyone expects you to be one too, and treat you like one, even if you try to be nice.

Basically this. That reminds me of a quote.

"Expecting life to go great because you do nice things is like expecting an angry bull to not gore you because you're vegetarian." (paraphrased slightly)

 

[Naheal]

It's rare for me to do something that people approve of.

Examples? I'm Christian, but I dislike being conservative simply because others are. For example, this...

Spoiler

...is something that I love to point out to folks. Also, I love jokes/pics that could easily be construed as blasphemy, such as...

Spoiler: dont click if you're offended by flipping the bird

simply because I find it amusing.

 

[proctorninja2]

there is a hangover reference to be made here but yeah i just tend to be nice to people i dont know and be a dick at all other times