It's time for some MGS talk thingy.

[FalloutJack]

A funny thing has been jingling in the back of my head about the nature of things in Metal Gear Solid, about Snake and Big Boss and, naturally, Liquid Snake. So, the story goes that, of course, Revolver Ocelot replaced his hand with that of Liquid Snake's, and then (somehow) Liquid's genetics start taking him over, making him basically Liquid Ocelot. Something about that always rubbed me the wrong way, and I realize now what it was.

If he can do that, then he's not even dead.

It's actually just a simple premise, really. Supposedly, Liquid Snake was genetically superior to Solid Snake, and during the course of Metal Gear Solid, he endured things that would kill you or I several times over. Understandable. Ah, but what about FOX-Die? Well, think about it. His hand from his infected body was deemed a viable transplant for Ocelot, and then proceeded to {A} not infect HIM with FOX-Die and {B} Turn him into Liquid Ocelot. How could this be if FOX-Die did not work? Even if it were immunized somehow before transplant, Liquid still got into his brain from a HAND.

So, while we might never find out because Konami is an ass, I give you a possible mindscrew that Kojima could've thrown at us, that Liquid Snake was alive and well and puppeteering Ocelot from afar.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

So, the story goes that, of course, Revolver Ocelot replaced his hand with that of Liquid Snake's, and then (somehow) Liquid's genetics start taking him over, making him basically Liquid Ocelot. Something about that always rubbed me the wrong way, and I realize now what it was.

Big Boss explains to Old Snake in the final cutscene in MGS4 that this was never actually the case, that Ocelot had instead essentially brainwashed himself into becoming Liquid Ocelot to make himself seem like less of a threat to the Patriots. Though I'm calling retcon on that, because the set up for Ocelot to be The Boss and The Sorrow's child implied that the reason Liquid could possess Ocelot was through inheriting his father's paranormal touch. I don't blame you for not remembering it, the dialogue was almost two hours long and it was somewhere towards the end...

A puppeteering Liquid would have been grand, as the Liquid's genetic superiority seems like a wasted plot point after his demise. Even with The Phantom Pain's revelations on Zanzibar Land and Solid's first mission, the plucky underdog thing never fit Solid well and it would have been nice to see him outsmarted. They should have used Decoy Ocotopus for that instead actually, have him die as Liquid to FOXDIE and Liquid can come back as an actual threat.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Guys......What?

It's Kojima writing. Skip it. No one understands.

 

[Saltyk]

MGSIV explained that Liquid had never controlled Ocelot. Instead, Ocelot used nanomachines to effectively brainwash himself into thinking that Liquid had done this. I think it had something to do with Ocelot's ultimate plan to destroy the Patriots, and he knew he couldn't do it. But Snake and Liquid could. It's been a while since I played MGSIV so I'm probably forgetting details. But I do know that Ocelot was never truly controlled by Liquid.

 

[RJ 17]

Ocelot used nanomachines

This right here is the answer to any and all questions regarding the MGS franchise.

"How did that guy...?"
"Nanonmachines."
"But what about when he...?"
"Nanomachines."
"Why didn't that other guy...?"
"Nanomachines."

The way the Fulton Recovery System worked in the game being nowhere near how it was intended to work in real life? Nanomachines.

The way DDog could bark out enemy positions without enemies ever hearing him? Nanomachines.

The way Quiet's boobs defy the laws of physics? Nanomachines.

Still don't believe me?


My money says that if we were to have gotten the full version of MGS5, you'd find out at the end that the parasites are actually nanomachines.

Edit: Also, for those that were unaware...Cyborg Ninja Raiden is actually a "Giant" Nanomachine...built out of regular nanomachines. :3

 

[FalloutJack]

Big

Boss

Oh sure, like I'm gonna believe anything he tells me. Seriously, Big Boss is frigging David Xanatos, Deathstroke, and Kurt Russell combined. He's the guy that survived years of deadly missions, Solid Snake himself (at least a couple times), and god knows what else to allow the world to think he's dead in order to pull everything that he has.

Rule One: Big Boss lies.

Rule Two: So does everyone else.

Nano-nano!

So, that's what it takes for Raiden to actually be cool, eh? Figures.

 

[Rabish Bini]

Big

Boss

Oh sure, like I'm gonna believe anything he tells me. Seriously, Big Boss is frigging David Xanatos, Deathstroke, and Kurt Russell combined. He's the guy that survived years of deadly missions, Solid Snake himself (at least a couple times), and god knows what else to allow the world to think he's dead in order to pull everything that he has.

Rule One: Big Boss lies.

Rule Two: So does everyone else.

Yeah, as said Ocelot hypnotised himself into the who Liquid Ocelot persona. You can say you don't believe anything he says, but the whole hypnosis thingy is also a plot point in Phantom Pain, so there's no reason not to believe him. Plus BB seems genuine throughout that entire sequence.

Kinda off topic: the whole 'nanomachines explain everything' is a valid criticism of the series, but keep in mind that they were used to explain away everything predominantly in 4, a game which was never supposed to made, and one that had to wrap up plot points that were never meant to be finished. MGS2's plot was impossible to wrap up neatly, and should have been left as is.

 

[jhoroz]

As others have mentioned, the whole Liquid Ocelot thing was self-hypnosis, AND no, Big Boss wasn't lying since Ocelot's ability for self-hypnosis was confirmed in Phantom Pain. The only time Liquid ever possessed Ocelot was in 2 when he had his arm attached to him. The general fan explanation for that is Ocelot, being the son of the Sorrow, has inherited his father's sensitivity and ability to interact with the dead, and Liquid's hatred for Snake being as strong as it is, allows him to seize control over Ocelot when in proximity to Snake. Ocelot saw this as a problem, so he got rid of the arm and replaced it with a cybernetic one, but initiated his bat shit insane plan to self-hypnotize and pretend that Liquid had completely taken over his mind in order to fool the Patriots and manipulate Snake and his gang to unwillingly destroy the entire AI infrastructure of the Patriots.

It's the dumbest, greatest, zaniest scheme and twist in modern video games and storytelling in general, and just an ode to joy of just how fucking off the rails and stupid MGS 4 got.

 

[FalloutJack]

Kinda off topic: the whole 'nanomachines explain everything' is a valid criticism of the series, but keep in mind that they were used to explain away everything predominantly in 4, a game which was never supposed to made, and one that had to wrap up plot points that were never meant to be finished. MGS2's plot was impossible to wrap up neatly, and should have been left as is.

Actually, I'm curious now. Whacha' mean that the game was never meant to be? (And really, I found the idea of the Patriots to be pretty stupid in execution.)

 

[TilMorrow]

So Basically to sum it up, Ocelot is a massive liar whilst also being an ∞ agent as he turns out to actually be on the side of every other thing.

Kinda off topic: the whole 'nanomachines explain everything' is a valid criticism of the series, but keep in mind that they were used to explain away everything predominantly in 4, a game which was never supposed to made, and one that had to wrap up plot points that were never meant to be finished. MGS2's plot was impossible to wrap up neatly, and should have been left as is.

Actually, I'm curious now. Whacha' mean that the game was never meant to be? (And really, I found the idea of the Patriots to be pretty stupid in execution.)

I think he is talking about how Kojima seemed to want to shift away from Snake and make Raiden the new face of MGS to continue the story thread, possibly so that people didn't confuse him with Big Boss, but then went ahead and made MGS4 instead and changed Raiden to a major support character.

 

[RJ 17]

Nano-nano!

So, that's what it takes for Raiden to actually be cool, eh? Figures.

Well of course! The only thing that could possibly make Raiden cool would have to be the omnipotent deus ex machina powers of the almighty nanomachines!

BOW DOWN BEFORE YOUR MICROSCOPIC METAL GODS!

 

[Rabish Bini]

Kinda off topic: the whole 'nanomachines explain everything' is a valid criticism of the series, but keep in mind that they were used to explain away everything predominantly in 4, a game which was never supposed to made, and one that had to wrap up plot points that were never meant to be finished. MGS2's plot was impossible to wrap up neatly, and should have been left as is.

Actually, I'm curious now. Whacha' mean that the game was never meant to be? (And really, I found the idea of the Patriots to be pretty stupid in execution.)

You're probably aware that Kojima has been doing the whole 'this is my last MG game - oops I made another' thing for a while now. MGS was supposed to be the finale but its success led to the creation of Sons of Liberty. The entirety of MGS2 though was built around subverting audience expectations, and was intended as a critique of modern video game and consumer culture. Plot points like the Patriot AI's controlling the flow of information and all that funky jazz was never intended to have a conclusion, which is evident in the completely different tone of 2 and 4. Kojima actually stated that had he known the series would continue and had he planned ahead, the story would have been completely different. Hell one of his biggest regrets was killing off Liquid in the first place, who was shoehorned into the plot because of the fantastic reception he received.

If it weren't for innumerable death threats and the series' ongoing success Kojima may not have come back at all.

 

[FalloutJack]

Kinda off topic: the whole 'nanomachines explain everything' is a valid criticism of the series, but keep in mind that they were used to explain away everything predominantly in 4, a game which was never supposed to made, and one that had to wrap up plot points that were never meant to be finished. MGS2's plot was impossible to wrap up neatly, and should have been left as is.

Actually, I'm curious now. Whacha' mean that the game was never meant to be? (And really, I found the idea of the Patriots to be pretty stupid in execution.)

You're probably aware that Kojima has been doing the whole 'this is my last MG game - oops I made another' thing for a while now. MGS was supposed to be the finale but its success led to the creation of Sons of Liberty. The entirety of MGS2 though was built around subverting audience expectations, and was intended as a critique of modern video game and consumer culture. Plot points like the Patriot AI's controlling the flow of information and all that funky jazz was never intended to have a conclusion, which is evident in the completely different tone of 2 and 4. Kojima actually stated that had he known the series would continue and had he planned ahead, the story would have been completely different. Hell one of his biggest regrets was killing off Liquid in the first place, who was shoehorned into the plot because of the fantastic reception he received.

If it weren't for innumerable death threats and the series' ongoing success Kojima may not have come back at all.

Actually, I did not have any idea that it was as far back as the first MGS game. I wasn't realy sure who was pulling the strings on the MGS returns once that all came to light, though.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The all powerful nanomachines. So powerful they apparently can time travel and retcon the fuck out of anything their master wishes them to. Their master, the ultimate nanomachine: Hideo Kojima.

 

[Rabish Bini]

*snip*

Actually, I did not have any idea that it was as far back as the first MGS game. I wasn't realy sure who was pulling the strings on the MGS returns once that all came to light, though.

Well it was more the second one. Nobody really expected MGS to blow up like it did, it was practically the second coming of Jesus at one stage, so a sequel was inevitable.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Big

Boss

Oh sure, like I'm gonna believe anything he tells me. Seriously, Big Boss is frigging David Xanatos, Deathstroke, and Kurt Russell combined. He's the guy that survived years of deadly missions, Solid Snake himself (at least a couple times), and god knows what else to allow the world to think he's dead in order to pull everything that he has.

Rule One: Big Boss lies.

Rule Two: So does everyone else.

Sadly, it's true. One of the problems plaguing Metal Gear Solid 4 was the sudden necessity to ground characters and powers in some kind of psuedo-science fiction-y way. Whilst they poked fun at that in MGS2 with Fortune, characters like Liquid Ocelot, Vamp, The End, The Sorrow and The Pain all had genuine supernatural abilities. For some bizzare reason in MGS4 almost everything became nanomachines. I'm surprised the list of non sequiturs doesn't include explanations for some the Cobra Units powers (well The End got an explanation in V).

The case remains that in MGS2 Ocelot was supposed to be possessed by Liquid, but at some point someone thought that was way too bonkers and it was retconned into a fucked up cocktail of nanomachines, drugs and hypnotherapy. Because that's way more sane.

 

[Rabish Bini]

Sadly, it's true. One of the problems plaguing Metal Gear Solid 4 was the sudden necessity to ground characters and powers in some kind of psuedo-science fiction-y way. Whilst they poked fun at that in MGS2 with Fortune, characters like Liquid Ocelot, Vamp, The End, The Sorrow and The Pain all had genuine supernatural abilities. For some bizzare reason in MGS4 almost everything became nanomachines. I'm surprised the list of non sequiturs doesn't include explanations for some the Cobra Units powers (well The End got an explanation in V).

The case remains that in MGS2 Ocelot was supposed to be possessed by Liquid, but at some point someone thought that was way too bonkers and it was retconned into a fucked up cocktail of nanomachines, drugs and hypnotherapy. Because that's way more sane.

Eugh, I hated the explanation of The End's powers (I believe it was mentioned The Fear and The Pain had parasites too?). It completely ruined the entire mystique that Snake Eater built up around these characters. That was one of 3's great strengths, it didn't bother explaining everything, and it was better for it.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

Except the arm thing never happened... not really. Ocelot brain washed himself because... notice me Big Boss-senpai?

 

[normalguycap]

It's the dumbest, greatest, zaniest scheme and twist in modern video games and storytelling in general, and just an ode to joy of just how fucking off the rails and stupid MGS 4 got.

How did MGS4 get off rails and stupid?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

(somehow)

There you go. That's your answer. "Somehow".
Don't think too much about it. Kojima didn't.