Jennifer Hepler leaves Bioware due to threats by fans

ResonanceSD

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Eleima said:
This is absolutely appalling. A real shame.
This is true


Eleima said:
BioWare's writing team is the poorer for it.
This is so far off the mark, it's in a different galaxy to our own.

Eleima said:
No one deserves the kind of treatment she's been given.

And once again returning to "truth". This kind of behaviour by so-called fans of gaming is just the bottom of the barrel.

DA2 was shitty. But it wasn't death-threat shitty. You know what is? Nothing. Nothing could possibly justify this kind of shit from the internet.
 

NeedsaBetterName22

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Fappy said:
Oban said:
/v/ is apparently celebrating the occasion: http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/205238974/

/v/ hates Todd Howard? Wow, those guys can suck a bag of dicks!

OT: The Bioware fanbase is one of the most polarizing groups I've ever been apart of.
I actually thought Todd Howard was Kevin Conroy for a second, and was wondering why /v/ hates his video game voice acting so much.

Ignoring the fact that Hepler quit for her own reasons, not the apparent threats, I'll say this on the subject:

I really have to dig the people on this thread who are responding to threats of violence with threats of violence and/or sterilization. Good job guys, you make yourselves out to be as thuggish as your enemies (but with the added benefit of possibly supporting eugenics!).

This was in Canada right? If so there are already existing legal standards (Section 264.1 of the Criminal Code) for death threats and harassment. According to the RCMP and the Supreme Court of Canada, online death threats are treated within these guidelines. If the threats were severe enough there was a pre-existing legal standard. So people complaining about how this is legal, guess what, it's not if it fits the legal guideline for death threats. Due to this, this means that either the company simply didn't alert the RCMP to the threats or they did and the police were unable to arrest under the confines of S. 264.1. Of course their power is limited to inside Canada, but hey, that's globalization, welcome to a non-national community. So it's a lot more complex than the 'death threats are not illegal online' nonsense some people are spouting. I'm just saying, the internet is filled with people throwing death threats at Stephen Harper but I have yet to see any righteous fury for the harassment he's suffered. And if we did prosecute people for that half of you would be calling the Canadian government fascists.

TL;DR Version: A lot of people here don't know anything about Canadian law.
 

MXRom

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This only hurts Bioware, because that just punishes people going against the grain. Try getting a replacement now, the position is poison. No one's gonna touch it while it has the stigma of lunatics judging the person sitting there.
 

Jzolr0708

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This shit? This is exactly why we can't have nice things. The gaming community rises up whenever the Jack Thompson's of the world claim that gamers are all violent masochistic pedophiles, and yet people still go out and decide that the only way we can air our grievances is to threaten writers with child murder.
 

ThoughtlessConcept

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Are we really considering these people "fans" anymore, once you threaten to kill somebody's kids I don't think you're allowed to be a fan of that person's creation. I get so tired of this, F^@% the internet, the people that say this stuff are spineless little worms.
 

Carpenter

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Carpenter said:
You have no idea what "my standards" but yes most of our society is mentally or emotionally damaged in some way. an emotionally stable person generally wouldn't attack a person they have never met because they don't like what they did with a video game.
Your standards were put forth when you made a statement. Let's just be clear there.

You've dilluted the concept of emotional stability to the point of no meaning, and it looks like a "no true scotsman" fallacy to boot.

Yes we do make progress by examining mental defect and emotional trauma. Pretending it doesn't exist is what makes the problem worse. Accepting that it exists allows us to examine the problem and look for solutions.
That's great. Who was this aimed at, again?

You're not examining anything. You're assuming into evidence something which isn't a given. Nor am I pretending it doesn't exist. Rather, I am attributing the majority of such behaviour to a social construct that is the end result of learned behaviour and silent consent. If you teach people that it's okay say things like "I'm going to murder your kids noob fag" then even normal people will do it.

We've turned a lot of phrases into meaningless terms, especially on the internet. People don't even think about the repercussions because we've treated them as words. death threats, suicide remarks, "die in a fire" and so on aren't outlier reactions. They're more or less the social norm, and while that should change, shunting it all off to mental illness is folly.

There's no irony in me rebuking him for "assuming" all the people involved were males, nothing was done that implies it was a male, on the other hand their actions clearly indicate emotional problems. I never said they should get a pass, just that saying we need to "remove them from the gene pool" is no better than what they did.
You made two baseless assumptions: one about mental wellbeing, another about his stance. You complain about him assuming something even though again, you're only assuming that.

What exactly are you arguing here?
See, most people would have started here. With the question, rather than trying to rebel before they knew what they were rebelling against. I'm not sure what point confuses you however. I explicitly stated my stance that this was socially learned behaviour. Even if the clumsy phrasing got you, you should be able to eke out the meaning of "learned behaviour."

Other than that?

My argument, I suppose, is that your argument is pop-psych garbage and you enter into this with assumptions justified by assumptions. You assume the behavior of individuals is relegated to emotional damage and then use your own assumption to draw the conclusion that justifies the assumption. It's circular logic and does not stand on its own. Asserting it benefits nobody and is horribly disingenuous.
Now your just twisting my words to support your argument. This isn't a "no true scottsman" fallacy, I simply said that threatening to kill a person's children anonymously online seems like a sure sign of mental or emotional instability.

If that comment offends you so deeply that you need to create a strawman to attack (rather than my actual comments) then be my guest, you really don't need my help for that though.

If you disagree with me, fine. It's not like I'm demanding my opinions be taught in your kid's school, just calm down a little and stop acting like you need to fight me on every little thing.
 

Carpenter

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ThoughtlessConcept said:
Are we really considering these people "fans" anymore, once you threaten to kill somebody's kids I don't think you're allowed to be a fan of that person's creation. I get so tired of this, F^@% the internet, the people that say this stuff are spineless little worms.
Seriously is nobody else getting this? You could cut the irony in this room with a spoon.
 

RickyChinese

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LifeCharacter said:
People keep talking about (or alluding to) Hepler being a bad writer, and, when asked, they never seem to respond back with what parts of Origins or DA2 they disliked that Hepler actually worked on. Can you be that special person who actually answers why, exactly, you believe that Hepler is a bad writer?
Both of the games were pretty poorly written, particularly the second. Jennifer Hepler was definitely responsible for this turd. [http://www.amazon.co.uk/M-I-T-H-Operation-Smoking-Stephen-Segovia/dp/1582405158/ref=la_B0034P8YWO_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376970240&sr=1-1] But yeah, I'm pretty sure people attacked Hepler because there's a prevailing opinion that Bioware are worse than they used to be and she's an easy target.
 

thenoblitt

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While I believe that people went to far, and said some messed up stuff, she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me. If she wanted movies or books she should go do that, instead of trying to take out gameplay.
 

Eleima

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ResonanceSD said:
Eleima said:
BioWare's writing team is the poorer for it.
This is so far off the mark, it's in a different galaxy to our own.
That's your opinion. How much of Hepler's actual writing have you read? Do you even know which characters she's behind? I feel her style flows, and that she creates relatable characters with complex flaws.
ResonanceSD said:
DA2 was shitty. But it wasn't death-threat shitty.
Again, that's your opinion. Repeated environments and combat system aside, I rather enjoyed DA2. "Shitty" is a rather limited perspective. But that's my opinion.

thenoblitt said:
While I believe that people went to far, and said some messed up stuff, she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me. If she wanted movies or books she should go do that, instead of trying to take out gameplay.
Actually, if you read the interview, she never said that she wanted to remove that aspect of gaming, she said that for her, combat got in the way of telling a story, and that when she played, she would like to bypass all that stuff altogether. Never that it should be entirely removed of all gaming.
That's why we have different genres for different people. Some genres are combat heavy, and some are story heavy with no combat whatsoever. Apples and oranges.
 

Bat Vader

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GloatingSwine said:
Dragonbums said:
GloatingSwine said:
And there are games for those people, those games are called films. (Cheat code: Press >>)
So are you saying everyone who like the Bioshock Infinite game solely for story should just go watch a movie instead?
How narrow.
If you don't like FPS combat, why play an FPS where the overwhelming majority of your time will be spent doing something you don't like?

She doesn't like them, because she struggles with it. She never said games should do away with it. She simply said that it should be an option.
It is an option though, just play different games.

And I'm sorry, but not all the stories in videogames suck.
No, just almost all of them.

People play Bioware games solely for the story. Even in their advertisements, their biggest selling point is how the player is going to get an awesome story with their choices mattering. Almost all of the threads relating to Bioware and BSN revolve around the characters, the choices you can possibly make with said characters, and the outcome of those choices.
But I suspect the vast majority of the people who play Bioware games for the story also like the actual gameplay elements of videogames, because if they didn't they wouldn't be playing fucking videogames in the first place!

For Bioware fans- interacting with the characters is the game.
Bioware games for all intents and purposes are Western videogame novels. A popular genre in Japan where those kinds of games are very widespread. An example of such games would be Hatoful boyfriend.p
Bioware games are fuck all like visual novels. Also: Visual novels are fucking terrible. Really, if you want to read a book read a fucking book. Japan just likes them because, let's face it, most of them are porn.


And those things did not involve hand eye co-ordination, reflex skills, combat, or any other thing she is terrible at. Perhaps except inventory.
They're still challenge elements. It doesn't matter what type of challenge elements they are, they're still present because that's the thing that seperates videogames from other media. If someone is bad at combat they shouldn't demand games with lots of combat change to cater to them, they should play games with different challenges that are more fun for them!.


That analogy is poor. Aside from the fact that salads are still a food, that would be the same as said chef simply requesting that they provide other foods then just fish and lobster.
No, again you're putting words into Hepler's mouth that she didn't say, she did not say "I think we should include more diverse elements in our games as well as combat", she said "people want to skip past the combat to get at dialogue".

She is explicitly calling for the challenge element of the games to be removed because she doesn't like that challenge element. She is not calling for it to be replaced with anything, she is calling for it to be removed. (NB: If a challenge can be skipped at the player's behest, it's no longer a challenge.)
The main reason I play video games are for the story. If a game that I am playing for the story also has gameplay that I enjoy that is a plus. Just because video games are an interactive medium doesn't really give them an excuse to have bad writing. With the budgets most games have these days hiring a good writer should not be that difficult.

I have to disagree with what you said about visual novels. Just because a VN has nudity and sex in it doesn't take away from the story. In fact here is a list of the ones I enjoyed. Steins;Gate, Katawa Shoujo, Saya no Uta, Higurashi, Umineko, and Ever 17 The Out of Infinity.
 

Monsterfurby

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There's a line of argument in this thread about what exactly constitutes "death-threat shitty".

People... we're talking about video games here. This is nothing existential. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING that a developer/publisher/anyone can do justifies death threats.
 

endtherapture

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thenoblitt said:
While I believe that people went to far, and said some messed up stuff, she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me. If she wanted movies or books she should go do that, instead of trying to take out gameplay.
A game good should be trying to integrate the story with the gameplay as much as possible, which is why I agree with you 100% here.
 

wulf3n

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thenoblitt said:
she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me.
No, she wanted the option to skip combat if the player so chooses. A very big difference.

Especially seeing as other games [http://www.destructoid.com/l-a-noire-lets-you-skip-bits-if-you-keep-failing-199991.phtml] have already done this. No one seemed to care that much then.
 
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MXRom said:
This only hurts Bioware, because that just punishes people going against the grain. Try getting a replacement now, the position is poison. No one's gonna touch it while it has the stigma of lunatics judging the person sitting there.
I'd take the job, I'd just learn from her situation.

It's a ridiculous situation, but if I understand correctly... She got ridiculed for saying something that people perceived as silly. She then didn't take it well, claiming that it was because she was a vagina owning woman, the kind that those mocking her could never get near. That's a fairly hard jab, all the harder if it rings true with who it's aimed at.

So, yeh... I wouldn't do any of that. I don't care about social media or being in the public eye, so if Bioware wanna pay me a nice salary to write game-stories I'll just keep my head down and do it.

You reading this, Bioware?
 

CloudAtlas

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wulf3n said:
thenoblitt said:
she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me.
No, she wanted the option to skip combat if the player so chooses. A very big difference.
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would have already welcomed the possibility myself, and not just once. There were games were combat got so tedious after some time, for me anyways, that I set the difficulty to easy to just get it over with and see how the story ends. Perhaps not coincidentally, Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 come to mind here.

Yes, of course it would be better if combat was so great and so tightly interwoven with the narrative that nobody would want to skip it. In reality, however, that's not always the case.
 

PeterMerkin69

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This faux controversy is pretty hilarious. Has anyone in the industry actually been harmed, raped or killed as a result of the changes they've made to any video games? Does any of that happen often enough that it's become a true occupational hazard for everyone involved? I certainly haven't heard about it if it has.

These alleged people who are allegedly frightened away from the industry, do they ever actually leave their homes, or do they just not have the wherewithal to realize that one stands a better chance of losing their life, virtue and family in a freak traffic collision on their way to the to buy soy milk from the convenience store than they do of being robbed, raped and devoured by Internet savages?
 

JazzJack2

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wulf3n said:
thenoblitt said:
she did want to take the game aspect out of gaming, and that really bothers me.
No, she wanted the option to skip combat if the player so chooses. A very big difference.

Err how is it that any different? if she has said wanted other gameplay alternatives to combat within a game with combat I.E things like Fallout 1 & 2 or Deus Ex where you can stealth or talk your way out of combat if you didn't want to do it then I'd largely agree because it doesn't sacrifice gameplay but actually expands upon it. But she didn't want this, all she wanted was a big fat button to skip combat with no gameplay alternatives and this essentially means she wanted the gameplay of a game to be skip-able which is very much 'taking the game out gaming.'