Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[e.wlmo4]

The saddest thing about this debate (and nearly every other debate on the internet) is that mudslinging and comparisons to Hitler are almost certainly going to happen, mainly due to the nature of the internet at large. The worst part is that I don't think it can be fixed without destroying the nature of the internet, as the current way things are done has in part caused this bullshit. Even when something like Facebook is used to remove the anonymity and the same result still happens, this is probably not going away any time soon. Then again all media formats have become far more confrontational, and everyone has decided to stay in their pockets of culture, regardless of the format; leading to far too many interactions between any opposing views defaulting to argument, not discussion, usually about why your view is better.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it
Why? What made her different?
Is it because she was a bad-ass? That'd be a legitimate argument; she's an independent character of incredible power, she'll dress how she wants.

I think another factor is Bayonetta was a bit more tastefully done. Despite being highly stylized she was fairly reasonably proportioned and she was sexy for reasons beyond having giant tits that bounce every which way in a light breeze.

In this case the character in question can pretty much be summed up as "Hey look! Tits!"

 

[Ernil Menegil]

I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

 

[TJC]

On a side note: Replaying BG&E for the 50th fucking time still is really fun. *clocked in 81st replay*

Good video, Jim. Really good but I still can't thank god for you. not that you aren't awesome but I'll start thanking him when he makes people start listening to you >:C

 

[MichaelMaverick]

People in general will have to grow more intellectually honest and secure before productive discussions about anything can become a norm, and I'm not so sure what the chances of that are. Still, can't go wrong with trying to reinforce that notion, so decent episode. Liked the bit at the end where you talk about rationality and calmness while brandishing an axe, lol.

 

[Something Amyss]

Women have never been something that inspires rational thought in men.

Nor has gaming.

The flame war over Dragon's Crown confused me a bit at first; sure, the women were ridiculously proportioned, but so were the men. I figured that was what they were going for. Super-stylized, over-the-top, beyond the pale to a point where it barely mattered to the gender discussion because it was too extreme to be compared

More to the point, the other over-the-top female character isn't exactly stylised as "sexy."

I do think this is an odd place to take a stand, because it's more a single character. Though as I said before, I find the art in this game to be bad bad bad bad overall bad. So I'm not really defending the art as good, just saying it doesn't strike me as though it's endemic.

On the other hand, the fact that it's pretty much everywhere does leave this with potential back-braking-straw issues.

Then a few days ago, I took a step back & I saw what Jim saw: Insult, gay joke, trolling on all sides.

The funny thing about this is the artist was accused of being a 14 year old, and then he responded in stereotypical 14 year old boy form.

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it

There really was, though. The defenses were kind of the same, too. It's satire. Women like it. It's really empowering. Guys go shirtless all the time, SAME THING.

It's all either `I see something wrong with this and always will`

I really want to see this in action, because it looks like false contrition to centrism to me.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

An excellent point Jim. Perhaps a sensible discussion can be had and I think eventually we will get there.

Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

There actually IS a game called Boob Wars. It's about how rape is a noble act that saves the world.

It's unpleasant.

I had thankfully forgotten about that game existing until now. Now I need to shower.

 

[Louzerman102]

An important thing to consider about the artistic style of the game is the game-play impact of character design. The background footage of Dragon's Crown that Jim showed clearly demonstrates that the game can be very distracting. Most of the discussion was centered on do you like or dislike the character design. Part of the reasons the characters are so over-exaggerated is to make them noticeable and identifiable at a glance during combat.

This whole event reminded me the Game Of Thrones Gorge Bush's head thing. The Sorceress design was shown in the announcement trailer released around the time of the PS VITA announcement. Vanillaware fans already knew of the game and the character designs.

 

[Rabidkitten]

Totally playing as the Sorceress, Probably just eek my wife. I stated my stance on this debate on Destructoid.

The glory of art is in its ability to offend. If all art appealed to all audiences, we'd have mud, Disney films, and Toyotas.

 

[Sylocat]

The other problem is that any time someone tries to HAVE a simple discussion (*coughAnitacough*), the morons instantly turn it into an argument in an attempt to shout down dissenting voices.

 

[Phasmal]

It's all either `I see something wrong with this and always will`

I really want to see this in action, because it looks like false contrition to centrism to me.

I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault, I'm terrible at getting points across.
I meant, the argument is usually `Games need to change` vs `Games need to not change`. And the people on either side are usually not going to change their mind.

 

[Sergey Sund]

I revised this comment because it was beside the point of the video:
Calm talks and discussion: YAY.
RadFems vs. MRAs: NAY.
And while I am thoroughly disappointed by my local feminist chapter for precicely the unwillingness to debate things calmly (and other stuff), I DO AGREE that the depiction of women in games is still a problem.
Not only that, I feel like these designs are lazy, cowardly, and insulting cop-outs. These companies, these artists get my money to design characters. But every female character somehow manages to have the same three attributes: big boobs, big-ass ass, and a hip-section so slender that even a wasp would have trouble breathing.
It's lazy to copy these attributes onto every female character, it's cowardly, because it's basically playing it safe, following a market study, drawing based on numbers, and it's insulting, because the viewer is held to be a horny 12-year-old with the intelligence of a monkey.
Manipulation, thou art not subtle.
Like, for fuck's sake, there is such a thing as R34 porn on the web. Artists don't have to pre-emptively draw porn versions of every female in the game - that's what the internet is for!

 

[knight steel]

Agree that discussion and conversation is important/needed with that being said I will trying to do this is the most civil manner possible:I'm slightly disappointed that you discussed the oversaturation of boobs and butts but did not mention the oversaturation of male meat tanks and the problems they present as well.

 

[Something Amyss]

On a side note: Replaying BG&E for the 50th fucking time still is really fun. *clocked in 81st replay*

Really wish I could deal with the camera controls. The game seems really appealing, but the "all or nothing" approach to inversion pisses me off.

The problem is that it's not just opposing opinions but conflicting ideologies. Ideologies that aren't opposite but are brought into conflict because they have different priorities. It's not going to end until we can all think the same way, or until one side admits they were wrong. Both are about as likely.

The reality is, it's going to end through action. It's going to end the same way any other issue of "ism" dies out. Women wanting representation in games isn't going to go away any more than gays wanting marriage or blacks wanting civil rights. that's not to say they are equivalent in scale, mind. However, there will, invariably, be a push. Ubiquity will eventually happen, and nobody's mind will need to be changed and nobody will need to admit to being wrong. I mean, America didn't suddenly stop being racist because we passed a Civil Rights Act, and it didn't stop hating gays because Lawrence v Texas established their right to...Well, exist.

We have publisher and developer level calls for more diversity, which makes it likely. Even if gaming becomes more diverse over the kicking and screaming of a million internet rape threats, it will become more diverse. I'm willing to bet that for most people it will mean absolutely nothing, which makes it easier to accept. I know what the common logic is, but even that will change.

 

[flarty]

Lol i wonder how this goes down, i posted a thread about this last week. It wasn't the best thread i posted, i was slightly drunk when i posted it, so i got a lack of flake how i presented my argument. But it basically goes like this.

The games where female character design is questionable, the male characters are most of the time also ludicrous. To the point they cant be taken seriously.
Now if females were always characterized to be evil, manipulative schemers in games, or the helpless dumb damsel in distress, then i would be the first to shout out that this is horrendous and sexist. But in games with good plots and decent character development female characters are written very well. HL2, Bioshock:Infinite, Mass Effect, Deus Ex: HR to just name a few.
Basically there will always be trashy games with questionable character designs, and their will always be masterpieces of story telling where all characters are written brilliantly. Same as hollywood, same as music.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

That's the thing I hate about the Internet and social media. Nobody can seem to rein in their inner asshole. ...not even me.

And for the record I find those character designs very unappealing.

 

[MPZero]

Good ep Jim its true nothing will change or happen unless people sitdown and talk

on the designs i do prefer the look of the Elf so much more than amazon or sorc for some of the reasons you gave they just feel to blocky or chunck (amazon) and the sorc just screams look at my boobies that said the males also give the same feel only the wizard has the feel of anything rezembling human... ( in terms of human i know theirs a dward ect)

 

[emeraldrafael]

The only problem I had with the whole fight going on between kotaku author and the game developr (and something I think Jim left out) was that the guy from kotaku said the female characters were poor design, but its acceptable for the dwarf and knight to be the way they are because thats a male power fantasy. Its not right in anyway, and it explains abit why the developr sent that picture on face book (rather than just painting him as a homophobic or whatever by saying that was hsi first reaction to just a problem with images of women.

as i said in the other thread about this (well one of them), I dont see the problem with it IN THIS GAME. in thsi game where two of the men are equally as huge and one just as scantily dressed, teh sorceress and amazon dont look as out of place. and neither is meant to make a statement on how women should look in games and something to be aspired to or idolized. its just old school throwback design as an homage.

 

[slysean]

Dear Jim

Before I begin I would like to say that this was a great show, as always and thank god for you.

I am sure that you probably already have a topic lined up for next week or have something far more important to talk about, but I was curious if I could get your opinion on the advertising practices of the games industry, more importantly their use of "real actors" and live action commercials on TV and the web instead of showing gameplay or even cut scenes.

For example the latest trailer for the upcoming XCOM:the bureau. In which they simply showed several actors looking over a piece of film and then throwing it into a fire. This was also the case for Borderlands 2, with a TV spot which human actors cos-playing as the main characters from the game instead of showing gameplay, or for black ops 1 and 2 with high profile actors (Robert Downey Jr. for example).

Sorry for the length of this post, but I am quiet curious what your opinion is or why the industry decides to hire, pay and produce a short commercial with actors instead of the game they already have.

Thanks for your time and once again, thank god for you.

 

[Something Amyss]

I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault, I'm terrible at getting points across.
I meant, the argument is usually `Games need to change` vs `Games need to not change`. And the people on either side are usually not going to change their mind.

Ah, I see. To be fair, it did occur to me that you might mean something else, but it didn't go with the grain of the thread, so I went for Occam's Razor and went with the wrong door. My bad.

In that case, yeah. We're probably fundamentally deadlocked. Though I can't help but wonder if some of the people who actually oppose change can't have their minds changed. I mean, I get the notion that games don't need to change, but a lot of these people portray it as though it's no big deal.

So if it means nothing to them and a lot to this other group, offering some level of compromise seems utterly meaningless to the first party. Which is where the folks who so oppose it baffle me, because it seems to mean so much to them to...I don't know, keep gaming as a boy's club? I don't completely understand the motives here, so I'm being glib.

And honestly, I'm not seeing the deterrent. Despite complaints, the more modest Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider reboot didn't seem to be a hindrance to it becoming the best-selling game in the franchise. Samus has never had her boobs serve as an obstacle to gaming. I'm always surprised to see the mainstream thought that you can't publish a game with a female protagonist show up in cases like Naughty Dog's new title, because the women that are there seem to do fine.

I'm not entirely sure that the vocal outcry here is backed up in sales.

Rambling now, but yeah.