Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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cookyy2k said:
Thing should be taken as intended, if no offence is intended then it's fine.
Sorry, but no. Art is much more than simply what the artist intends. Leni Riefenstahl may have just intended to make beautiful films without offending anybody, but that doesn't make her subject matter and association with the Nazi Party irrelevant.

And how are we supposed to always take things as "the artist intended" when the intent is not always clear, even to the artists themselves?

Some people will get offended but that is not because of the artist's work that's because they put their own interpretation on it. Some of the great works of art, music and film were very controversial in their day. Either everything is ok or nothing is, stop trying to draw arbitrary "do not cross" lines all over the place.
So, if everything is OK, then why is drawing arbitrary "do not cross" lines not OK?
 

Gigano

Whose Eyes Are Those Eyes?
Oct 15, 2009
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evilthecat said:
Imperator_DK said:
I'm pretty sure Kamitani can handle a bit of hate mail from offended people who'd never have bought the game anyway - and hence really have no business commenting on it, any more than straight men have commenting on gay porn offending them - if the pain is soothed by sales figures. The thing that actually matters.
Yes, because gay men never buy games. They're too busy oiling each other up and dressing up in leather to have normal hobbies.

And obviously, the only media gay people can consume is gay porn, because of course that's the only media specifically targeted at them to the exclusion of other demographics. No gay person would ever buy a piece of media intended primarily for a heterosexual audience. Why would they need to, I mean they have plenty of gay porn to watch.

Maybe I spoke too soon about Japan having a problem with casual homophobia..
...what?

Unless you can show that a commercially significant segment of gay people were going to buy "Dragon's Crown", and now won't, then whether or not gay people buy games in general has no relevance.

I honestly don't know how you'd get the idea that I assume gay people only buy gay porn. Bit of hypersensitivity there I suppose. However, if 100 gay people who knew about the game before the controversy boycott "Dragons Crown" over Kamitani, while 10,000 other people buy it because they've come to notice it through the controversy, that's an example of controversy-as-successful-marketing.

I do assume that most gay gamers - as with most straight gamers - didn't know about the game in advance of the controversy, and thus weren't interested in buying it. Hence most of the hatemail will be from people who weren't going to buy the game anyway. If you have knowledge that this game was somehow insanely popular in gay circles before this whole controversy business, by all means correct my assumption.
 

Darknacht

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May 13, 2009
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Archangel357 said:
Women are 50% of the population. How many members of Western parliaments are women? How many are CEOs of multinational corporations? Wall Street banks? How many are heads of government/state?
Not to mention the fact that you neglect the reason WHY women end up more often doing lower-paying work.
Far more women vote then men(at least in the US), so women have to power to choose who they want for elected positions in the government, they choose to put men in power.
And women end up doing lower paid work because they do not prioritize money and overt power over everything like men do. Women prioritize things like safety, flexible work hours, time off, and low stress jobs over overt power and money, where as men prioritize overt power and money over other benefits. This does not apply to all men and women but it does to most.
 

Amir Kondori

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Apr 11, 2013
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I would understand this backlash if the art and design in this game wasn't so amazing. But it is AMAZING! Some of the best 2d design, and I am talking about the whole thing, not just two of the female player characters, I have seen in my gaming life.
Sometimes I don't get people. If this game is ever released on PC I will snap it up in a heartbeat.
 

Pat Hulse

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Oct 17, 2011
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xPixelatedx said:
I would have a lot more of a problem with those "female character designs" if the men weren't equally absurd. Men don't look like that. It just seems to be the artist's style to exaggerate gender qualities.
Men are big, muscled brutes? Well, mine will be the biggest and most muscled brutes! Women have breasts? Well, mine will have ridiculous breasts!
etc. He took the qualities people often focus on (consciously and subconsciously) and embellished them in a stylistic way, and because he did it with both genders, this technically had nothing to do with women specifically.

Now, if the men looked like real people, but the women looked the same as their current designs, THEN I would be very disturbed.
I find games like DoA Beach volley ball VERY disturbing.
This argument has come up once or twice, and it's an understandable one, but also an ultimately flawed one.

Yes, this is clearly about exaggerated gender qualities, but it's important to remember that those gender qualities are not entirely biological, they are societal. Specifically, over-emphasizing muscular physique in men is derived from the perception that men derive power from physical strength. Similarly, over-emphasizing breasts or butts in women is derived from the perception that women derive power from physical desirability. The reason this is a problem should be fairly obvious, but I'll be a little more specific since the whole point of this video is discussion.

To put it simply, rippling muscles are associated with power because people who have them are generally capable of great physical prowess. However, the reason large breasts are associated with power is because the women who have them are perceived as desirable to other people. In other words, muscles = powerful on your own, breasts = powerful through someone else (probably a man).

In other words, a dwarf built like a brick shit house is not the same thing as a sorceress with planetary breasts. What WOULD be the same thing would be something more like what Penny Arcade outlined (slight NSFW):

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-svhrTpg/0/950x10000/i-svhrTpg-950x10000.jpg

Aside from just being funny, the point isn't that the sorceress looks unrealistic, it's that the parts of her that are unrealistic are the parts that are perceived as appealing to a particular gender/sexuality. A guy might say that they have no problem with the unrealistic male characters, but if there was a male character whose junk was enormous and wobbly, it probably would make you feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.

One might counter by saying that they still wouldn't mind because they could just pick a different character who doesn't have weird junk, but imagine if almost every male character in the industry had weird disproportionate junk and the women didn't. Doesn't that seem a teensy bit alienating? What if this game had three male characters, two of them had enormous balls, and only one of them looked normal? Wouldn't you feel a little bothered that you essentially only have one character choice that didn't make you feel uncomfortable?

Again, this isn't necessarily a condemnation of this particular style. I actually kinda like it in a weird perverse way. But it's not difficult to understand why a lot of women feel alienated by this industry, and it's also not difficult to remedy that. We don't have to get rid of these character designs, but the people who complain about them have a right to be upset and to feel uncomfortable with how their sex is portrayed in general.
 

Gigano

Whose Eyes Are Those Eyes?
Oct 15, 2009
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Archangel357 said:
...
Because there are things such as canon and objective quality in art, and critics are the ones tasked with upholding those things. If we only measured commercial success, Sex and the City 2 would be considered a better movie than Melancholia (don't get hung up on the examples, just illustrating a point here), and the idea of critical acclaim would go right out the window.
Well, that's debatable, but lets assume quality is objective.

To be constructive, any criticism must in that case still be aimed at the actual product and the purpose it serves, and how it could be served better. Constructive criticism of Sex and the City 2 would be aimed at how to improve it, in regard to serving its own intended purpose. Somebody telling people that they should just go watch Melancholia instead isn't offering up constructive criticism of the genre or purpose of Sex and the City; They're substituting them with their own interests, showing a complete lack of respect for the interests of the people they're purported advising.

A critic would aim for a better Sex and the City, or something which is better at conveying its intended messages and artistic vision. If you're a critic of Jazz, then you don't tell people that Jazz is shit, and they should be listening to classical music instead. To simply say that people should just watch something entirely different altogether isn't actual constructive criticism, so much as it's annoying and pretentious arrogance without any actual usefulness. It's on par with all the trolls telling all those people who like My Little Pony that they should feel bad for liking a children's show, instead of manly things. Which is also where the "critics" of Dragon's Crown would fall on the relevancy scale.

Red X said:
Imperator_DK said:
If people are enjoying Twilight, what business do you - who don't have to go see it, and don't have any stake in the franchise - have criticizing it? People can figure that out for themselves,
I don't know, it's popularity seems to suggest that hasn't happened yet XD

I guess we need to wait 10 more years :)
Well, I'm pretty sure the fanbase doesn't stay the same over the years.

Everyone have liked shit without much artistic merit at some point, and many still do. Which is perfectly fine, since each individual is entitled to its own taste and preferences.
 

hickwarrior

a samurai... devil summoner?
Nov 7, 2007
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Legion said:
Well, I didn't want to get through everything yet, since I feel like I HAVE to say something for some reason, but this basically summed it up. We can't have a debate when nobody is willing to even follow through with it, that's just the way of things. I just wonder how we can change this, but I'm pretty sure it's nigh-on impossible. Everyone's diverse, maybe too much so, to the point where you don't know if they will let you say your thing and let it soak in.

As for gameplay, I also got an experience akin to yours: I play Archeblade, and if you look at the design, it's just... well, let's say people will be quick to yell out sexism. But I enjoy having played it. The designs didn't matter to me, whether I saw panties constantly or not, whether this one corrupted elf was only wearing something in front, since I was focusing on the game itself rather than what the design is.

Or if we're talking about story, I'm not sure if I remember this right, but I don't think I worried about having sex with any girl in katawa shoujo. I didn't care if I saw Hanako as tittilating, I saw her as a shy person first and, after a while, a strong person with her own ideas on things. I didn't care if Emi was that short, she was enthusiastic about what she did, she had fun all through life even if she did have something holding her back.

Designs might matter, but characterization can trump it quite easily.

On the other side, the industry can do without making EVERY woman appeal to a certain vision. I would like some diversity when it comes down to it.
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
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Legion said:
Toilet said:
I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.
The argument is that it objectifies women and reduces them to nothing more than sexual fantasies. There are also those that argue that it affects the perception of women in real life. As well as people who say it makes them uncomfortable that there are not many normal women to play as so they have to play as overly-sexual characters instead.

Personally I think the first one is very much a case-by-case basis. Games where the women are literally nothing more than T+A as far as design is concerned are a problem (Rachel Ninja Gaiden 2), but I don't see the problem when they actually have decent character design as well. If they are good characters as well as being sexy then they are not "reduced" to anything.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

The third one I completely agree with, and I dislike games where the male characters are properly outfitted and proportioned, whereas the women are wearing bikini chainmail for no apparent reason.

Then again, I am also fairly desensitised to this kind of thing, so when I see skimpy outfits I more or less blank them. People kept on talking about Elizabeth's dress in Bioshock Infinite having massive cleavage, but I didn't even notice until somebody mentioned it.
I wouldn't even agree that any of those things are "problems" that need to be solved. Reducing women to nothing more than sexual fantasies is just as "violent media causes real life media" as the altered perception of women in real life thing is. I'm a big boy, I know that women are real people too in real life, I don't need video games to be super realistic in that regard lest I forget.

The third one is the only one I find unable to immediately dismiss for being just as nanners as "GTA makes you kill cops" logic. But even then, there still needs to be some allowance for the game creators to make what they want. If they want to make sexualized characters for whatever reason, why should they be told "No, I want more games with normal looking characters"? It's their game, let them make what they want.

Let me make it clear that I'm certainly not against games having normal women you can play as. I'd never look at a game that had a playable normal looking woman for a character and refuse to buy it or play as her over it. But at the same time, I'm not going to try and tell developers that they should only have normal women in their games either. Not every game out there needs to be one where the developer takes a stand against sexualized cahracters and makes normal men and women. Make what you want in terms of character designs. I've got far more unsavory things going into my games or being taken out of my games to ***** about. DRM, day one DLC, on disc DLC, online passes, you know, the whole list of shit that's ruining companies like EA while they're too stupid to realize it and keep on doing it.

So, anyway, Beyond Two Souls, that one's looking pretty sweet, right? Willem Dafoe and a main female character without massive tits that are always hanging out.
 

Reyold

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Jun 18, 2012
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zerabp said:
Thanks Jim! Communication is one of the greatest and most underutilized skills on the planet. What's great is when truly communicating, even when you both end up disagreeing with each-other, you are still both left with a greater respect for the others opinion.
Just imagine if we did this with politics, religion, even day-to-day conversations. The world would be a hundred times better.
 

MPerce

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May 29, 2011
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I think what we should all take from this is....

Beyond Good and Evil is a fucking great game.
 

Roger

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Apr 28, 2013
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Pat Hulse said:
Aside from just being funny, the point isn't that the sorceress looks unrealistic, it's that the parts of her that are unrealistic are the parts that are perceived as appealing to a particular gender/sexuality. A guy might say that they have no problem with the unrealistic male characters, but if there was a male character whose junk was enormous and wobbly, it probably would make you feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.

One might counter by saying that they still wouldn't mind because they could just pick a different character who doesn't have weird junk, but imagine if almost every male character in the industry had weird disproportionate junk and the women didn't. Doesn't that seem a teensy bit alienating? What if this game had three male characters, two of them had enormous balls, and only one of them looked normal? Wouldn't you feel a little bothered that you essentially only have one character choice that didn't make you feel uncomfortable?

Again, this isn't necessarily a condemnation of this particular style. I actually kinda like it in a weird perverse way. But it's not difficult to understand why a lot of women feel alienated by this industry, and it's also not difficult to remedy that. We don't have to get rid of these character designs, but the people who complain about them have a right to be upset and to feel uncomfortable with how their sex is portrayed in general.
That some people think a breast is on par with a penis really shows how puritanical of a culture we live in.
 

jluzar20

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Apr 29, 2013
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Is anyone else reminded of the phrase "undo concern for women is what leads to contempt for them"?
 

Kinitawowi

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Nov 21, 2012
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Aardvaarkman said:
143 posts into the thread and it's Godwin time.

This is why the internet isn't capable of having these sorts of discussions; as was noted a couple of pages earlier, as long as it's a flame war with a hypothetical winner and a hypothetical loser, as long as the combatants are arrogant shits who will never contemplate a micrometre of budging in their position lest it be seen as a sign of weakness, as long as the parties are ideologically opposed, as long as the Nazi card is still in the hand, as long as all this goes on, this wheel will continue to turn and roll round with the exact same non-outcome every time some new title appears.

I'd love a discussion, with a rational and reasoned debate between people willing to help each other find a mutually agreeable resolution. It's never going to happen.
 

QtheMuse

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May 23, 2010
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Nothing too see here but American's getting bent out of shape from a huge set of digital tits, move along.