Jimquisition: Corrupt, Censoring, Suicidal Indie Devs

Mikeyfell

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Imp Emissary said:
Mikeyfell said:
Imp Emissary said:
You're being a bit vague. Did this person complain about not being able to advertise, or did they just advertise?
Also, if they protested the rule by braking it and advertising anyway, then they knew the risks, and got what was coming to them.
Shhhhhhhhhh. (There's a hidden meaning in my post)


The "person" is me (it wasn't a youtube channel though.)

A while back there was a thread about our thoughts on an internet show called RWBY. and I posted a link to a really long review that I wrote about it instead of re typing or copy pasting 10 or so pages of content.
and I got moderatored for "advertizing" even though what I linked to was completely relevant to the thread topic.


I've seen entire threads where the OP is "Go to this link and read the article"
So why is posting an external link only against the rules if I wrote the thing I'm linking to?
(Also if I didn't mention that it was "my review" I was linking to I never would have been found out.

and I also don't really like that "Our content creators are above the law" was added to the Escapist CoC
So when I see Jim making yet another video that condemns the very policy that the Escapist practices I get a little miffed.

Of course I'm not allowed to say any of this, which is why I saw being so vague in the first place.
Sorry for the confusion.
Thank you for being clearer. Also, I don't think you've said anything that would lead to moderation at this time.

Anyway, to the grievance that you posted a relevant video of your opinion on a topic, I'd ask if your video is monetized. If so, again, that's why people can't be aloud to post their work on the Escapist without offering payment, or getting permission.
If you're video's aren't monetized, I'm sure that would help your case should you appeal the moderation. The advice I got from a mod was to always appeal.

As for Jim, like I said, because he works here, not just making content, but also as the reviews editor, he gets to advertise his work. It's a job perk.
Jim is following the Escapist's rules. That's why he couldn't show his last Movie defence force on the escapist and had to put it up on his youtube channel (it was for Mallrats if you're interested).
I didn't see anything about content creators being above the law in the CoC.

It isn't censorship to demand payment or to have people ask for permission to post things on a site you own and maintain.

There are ways you can get around this and stick to the rules. You could have written the gist of your video in a post and say that if anyone wanted to see the whole of it, they could ask you for a link through a private message. I don't believe that would be against the rules.
It was a text post on a non monetized platform
and I did dispute it and it didn't clear

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way
this is the line from the CoC I'm talking about.


There is a line in the CoC
"Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."
Which directly opposes another line from the CoC
Constructive criticism is welcomed; negativity for its own sake is not.
see for your self.

So it's not really about advertizing at all.
(Even though I don't use add block, so techenically every time I load a page they are getting money, so they really shouldn't care what kind of comments I leave. But now I'm just grinding my axe)
 

Kerethos

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Thank you Mr. Sterling for what I found to be a very informative and amusing Jimquisition. Humorously enough it was actually the Gary's Day One Incident affair which made me aware of TotalBiscuit, and subsequently made me follow his work.

Attempted censoring is a bad idea, that'll never work out well for the developer, but it's also a boon for the media personality. As the extra exposure, caused by the drama, will likely draw new viewers.

So not only will you crush them, you'll probably have a larger audience afterwards :)
 

sonofliber

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I dont get it, its easier just to give them some money and get a good review, must be because they are indies and they ability to bribe is limited
 

gargantual

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Scrumpmonkey said:
gargantual said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Wow the "Hydrophobia" devs harassed people for a bad review? Hydrophobia was a pretty poor game in my opinion, specially since the developers trumpeted it so hard. The fact that the developers seem to be a bunch of assholes only makes it worse in my estimations. What a shitty game that was.

Youtube needs a system by which it can have repercussions for people filing a false copyright strike. The system as it stands has lead to people unable to fight claims potentially having their accounts closed.
I know right... but that's our legal system unfortunately.

when humans see other humans successfully crying wolf in society and getting a big payout, its monkey-see monkey-do. The internet and our society needs a little more 'judge judy' to filter through our cynical false-plaintiff culture.
It's a YouTube systems problem. They need to start threatening legal action against false strikes. Or at least have a penalizing system within youtube, like being unable to make any more claims.
Oh hell Yeah. I know. first things first. Scare some of these false claimers away. Had a friend doing God of War Lets Play's and a Russian music video site was filing claims against him very soon after the content ID system went into effect, but he doesn't monetize so it was dealt with. All the same tho...

I guess i'm just saying, that snakes are always waiting to use the system un-righteously. Its endemic of our society's comfort to sue to make a buck, or sabotage others on petty jealousy and B.S. Institutions don't come out and demonstrate "hey this gavel is a tool for regulating fairness, its not a toy."
 

Imp_Emissary

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Mikeyfell said:
It was a text post on a non monetized platform
and I did dispute it and it didn't clear

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way.

This is the line from the CoC I'm talking about.

There is a line in the CoC

"Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."

Which directly opposes another line from the CoC

Constructive criticism is welcomed; negativity for its own sake is not.

See for your self.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.856175-Reminder-When-someone-makes-inflammatory-posts-and-threads


So it's not really about advertizing at all.
(Even though I don't use add block, so techenically every time I load a page they are getting money, so they really shouldn't care what kind of comments I leave. But now I'm just grinding my axe)
Nah, you've been fine so far.
Thank you for giving more information. Also, it is in their best interest to care about our comments.

If you didn't have the video monetized, as I said, I don't think the moderation was needed.
Though, can they tell if it's monetized? Perhaps they didn't know and aired on the side of caution.

As for that part of the CoC, it sounds more like they are saying if the Staff should act up, it doesn't give users an excuse to do the same. For example, if Greg Tito posts a low content post (<-He did, and got mod wrath for it. xD Took it well). That doesn't mean the users can do the same.

It doesn't say the staff can get away with breaking the rules. Just that if they happen to, the users can't follow suit.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Carnagath said:
To be fair, Best of Steam Greenlight is not criticism. It's comedy. It's pisstaking. I'm not saying that justifies abuse of Youtube's system, but when your content consists of taking the piss out of someone else's work without any constructive analysis, then I feel it would be best to be a bit more mild about potential backlash, kind of like what Retsupurae does with their content (they take it down themselves immediately if the target objects to it).
I disagree. It's comedy, yes, but I have a very distinct critical point with the series overall. The series points out problems with, say, bad framerates in conjunction with camera pans. Yeah it's comical, but I *do* consider it criticism, in the same vein as I would with the kind of way Yahtzee does stuff.
Comedy is the most truthful criticism in my opinion. It tests the idea to its extremes and measures how it holds up to the stress. Also I've always said if one cannot laugh at one's own missteps, then is that kind of life really worth living?
Keep it up Jim, and if people can't handle the criticism with grace, dignity and self-awareness then perhaps they're not cut out to be in a position where they can be criticized.
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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Imp Emissary said:
Mikeyfell said:
It was a text post on a non monetized platform
and I did dispute it and it didn't clear

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way.

This is the line from the CoC I'm talking about.

There is a line in the CoC

"Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."

Which directly opposes another line from the CoC

Constructive criticism is welcomed; negativity for its own sake is not.

See for your self.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.856175-Reminder-When-someone-makes-inflammatory-posts-and-threads


So it's not really about advertizing at all.
(Even though I don't use add block, so techenically every time I load a page they are getting money, so they really shouldn't care what kind of comments I leave. But now I'm just grinding my axe)
Nah, you've been fine so far.
Thank you for giving more information. Also, it is in their best interest to care about our comments.

If you didn't have the video monetized, as I said, I don't think the moderation was needed.
Though, can they tell if it's monetized? Perhaps they didn't know and aired on the side of caution.

As for that part of the CoC, it sounds more like they are saying if the Staff should act up, it doesn't give users an excuse to do the same. For example, if Greg Tito posts a low content post (<-He did, and got mod wrath for it. xD Took it well). That doesn't mean the users can do the same.

It doesn't say the staff can get away with breaking the rules. Just that if they happen to, the users can't follow suit.
The thing I linked to wasn't even on a monetizable platform.
I've seen monetized videos linked in threads all the time.
It's just an annoying technicality that I got hit by. and if I had less scruples and said "I agree with this review that was written by someone who definitely wasn't me, you should read it" I wouldn't have been punished


But it's really more about the practice of removing critical posts. I have a lot of complaints with the Code of Conduct and when I PM them to the community manager and they get ignored or brushed off no one's the wiser.

When someone makes a thread about the CoC it gets tons of comments. So they added "publicly airing your grievances is against the rules"

and then Jim comes out with this video and I yell to myself "Hypocrites!"
But then I compose my self a little and try to leave a clever comment.
 

truckspond

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Great episode as always. I agree that indie devs that try to censor criticism always seem to think that the streisand effect does not apply to them. But in fact it applies to everyone and they always have to learn that the hard way
 

RicoADF

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LenticularHomicide said:
Jim decided to take the fourth option: mobilize outrage at the grassroots level in order to expose Kobra's own wrongdoing, and to shame it into backing down.
I'm starting to think Jim's abusing his position with this video, while yes I agree that censorship of criticism of the game isn't right (nor legal) and will back anyone that fights against it, this video wasn't the case. As Carnagath pointed out the videos are literally about laughing at game's trailers on steam greenlight, one could reasonably argue that these videos hurt sales of the games and since their not critiques of the game don't fall under fair use. Add to that the arrogance Jim displayed in the video and I'm actually not in a hurry to grab a pitchfork against Cobra games (or whatever their name is).
 

Oskuro

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CrazyFikus said:
Censorship of valid criticism is bullshit
I find that qualifier troublesome, and have seen it used by several people on this very thread.
What is considered "valid" criticism? What isn't? Because I'm pretty sure that, in all the instances of publisher censorship Jim mentioned, the publishers were (and probably still are) convinced that those criticism where not "valid"


So lets fix it:

Censorship of any criticism is bullshit
You are free to ignore criticism, but you should never be able to censor it.



As Carnagath pointed out the videos are literally about laughing at game's trailers on steam greenlight, one could reasonably argue that these videos hurt sales of the games and since their not critiques of the game don't fall under fair use.
First of all, comedy/parody falls squarely under fair use.

Secondly, as I said above, the devs are free to ignore whatever anyone says, as long as we're not going into misinformation territory.

If Jim had made a video making false claims about the game, then yes, a takedown of the video might be warranted, as that would be libel, and even then, if the video has a clear humorous intent, it would still be protected as parody.


Saavy readers will, of course, recognize this as the thin line many advertisers or political commentators / pundits (among others) usually thread to avoid retaliation for their defamatory comments, so this debate is nothing new in our society.

I just think we can all agree Jim is blatantly humorous in his remarks.
 

Magmarock

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This was just a very entertaining video but no mention of Phill Fish, which is quite surprising.
 

LenticularHomicide

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Magmarock said:
This was just a very entertaining video but no mention of Phill Fish, which is quite surprising.
As I see it, Phil Fish did not aim to censor criticism of his game; he was grudgingly accepting of Let's Plays of his games continuing to be available for viewing, but he believed that LPers ought to pay him a royalty for using his intellectual property. That, I believe, separates him from those developers whose use of copyright seem to be less concerned with the idea of intellectual property rights, and more with using copyright takedowns as a bludgeon to try to stamp out any criticism of their games.

Also, Jim already touched on Phil Fish in one of his Youtube channel's videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPBUULv202A
 

NuclearKangaroo

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fantastic episode jimbo, this kind of shit need to stop, there must be a law agaisnt the mass suicide of game devs

Rabidkitten said:
What about take a Jimquisition and highlight 10 indie games that are good that no one is pay attention to?
actually id like something like this, often we hear a lot of shit from terrible indie game, how about bringing some light to some hidden gems?
 

Nazulu

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CaitSeith said:
Nazulu said:
The way I see it, triple AAA can be good or bad, nothing extreme (well, it doesn't seem so right now)
And that's so sad. AAA used to be symbol of awesomeness and creative breakthroughs. Now it's a symbol of hype and flashier graphics.
Yep. It's become very corrupt, and I can't find any titles that interest me. Nothing aimed at me at all in fact. And I still find it very strange that all these billion dollar giants are afraid to experiment even a little.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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NuclearKangaroo said:
actually id like something like this, often we hear a lot of shit from terrible indie game, how about bringing some light to some hidden gems?
To be fair hidden gems don't stay hidden for very long. They are quickly brought to the surface and become popular by sheer word of mouth (power of the internet etc :p).
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Aaron Sylvester said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
actually id like something like this, often we hear a lot of shit from terrible indie game, how about bringing some light to some hidden gems?
To be fair hidden gems don't stay hidden for very long. They are quickly brought to the surface and become popular by sheer word of mouth (power of the internet etc :p).
well yeah, to an extend, but there are still some games out there that could use the spotlight, for instance, this game, looks super cool

http://store.steampowered.com/app/248310/?snr=1_7_15__13

is it any good? fucked if i know, its been 1 week since it came out and there are still no reviews on it, and 15 dollars is a bit too much of a gamble for me
 

NerfedFalcon

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NuclearKangaroo said:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/248310/?snr=1_7_15__13

is it any good? fucked if i know, its been 1 week since it came out and there are still no reviews on it, and 15 dollars is a bit too much of a gamble for me
Goddamn amazing game this. If you ever enjoyed any platformers from the SNES/Megadrive era (Mega Man X, Sonic, Yoshi's Island, etc) then buy it right the heck now.

OT: If anyone hasn't learned this by now, they never will. I feel like this episode was mostly just running in place. I still like your show, and I'm not going to abandon it for one bad episode, but I still just didn't care for it.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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Scrumpmonkey said:
gargantual said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Wow the "Hydrophobia" devs harassed people for a bad review? Hydrophobia was a pretty poor game in my opinion, specially since the developers trumpeted it so hard. The fact that the developers seem to be a bunch of assholes only makes it worse in my estimations. What a shitty game that was.

Youtube needs a system by which it can have repercussions for people filing a false copyright strike. The system as it stands has lead to people unable to fight claims potentially having their accounts closed.
I know right... but that's our legal system unfortunately.

when humans see other humans successfully crying wolf in society and getting a big payout, its monkey-see monkey-do. The internet and our society needs a little more 'judge judy' to filter through our cynical false-plaintiff culture.
It's a YouTube systems problem. They need to start threatening legal action against false strikes. Or at least have a penalizing system within youtube, like being unable to make any more claims.
TBH this needs to be done with the legal system too. You shouldn't be allowed to get away with threatening people doing perfectly legal activities, particularly in a system that 1. works off a "guilty until proven innocent" sentiment or 2. costs money to dispute claims, which could destroy innocent but poor parties even if they win the case.