Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

grumpymooselion

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I guess I'm confused, they scored it a 6.5 . . . that's 1.5 above a 5, and to me a 5 means 'average' and average is not bad. There are many games I play and enjoy that I consider to be average. I'd never tell someone not to buy a game because it was average. And this is above average. Maybe I read the reviewers intent wrong, but a 6.5 is a good thing, right? It means despite their personal issues with several design decisions, they though it was still an above average experience.

Now, as to boobs and spread legs and suggestive positions? Fine. Keep em. I don't need them. I don't want them. But if that's a visual style you want to go with, fine.

Why?

I'm okay with any extreme, really, as long as it's happening to everyone in the game. I like variety. I'm okay with that game over there with very conservatively dressed and practically weaponed/armored characters of average to plain male or female body builds. I'm okay with this grossly exaggerated version with lots of exposed skin and suggestive poses and vastly oversized muscled and breasts. I'm okay with that game over there that turns male and female characters into petite pretty boys and girls that wear over the top outfits in garish colors no one would ever be caught did in. I'm okay with that game over there that makes all the male and female characters chibi sized cute characters with soft pastels everywhere. I'm okay with that grim dark and gritty game over there where everyone male and female is ugly, downtrodden and wearing whatever they could get. I'm okay with that dark gothic aesthetic filled with elegant unreal male and female characters that are almost too perfect and too graceful dressed in only the finest and most elegant of clothing. I'm okay with all these design choices and more.

Because I like variety. I don't want it all to be the same. And I don't want 'any' design choice made anathema because it might offend a few people. I like variety so that there are games for the people that like things other than what I like. I like variety so that I can have my game, and visuals I prefer, and you can have your game and visuals you prefer.

Me, I like the supposedly 'feminine' designs of the males in Final Fantasy games, that's always appealed to me far more than the big burly and ungodly muscled male characters or the grim gritty unshaven and utterly practices male characters. I even love the over the top and weird Final Fantasy outfits over those guys wearing a loin cloth or wearing practical armor or everyday clothes. I think the first time I ever heard someone ask why the Final Fantasy character couldn't wear normal jeans and T-shirt stuff I was at a loss for words, because why would I want that? There are games to get characters in normal jeans and T-shirts, they're all over the place. Why would you want to take that thing I like away?

Well, the same goes here. This game obviously isn't for everyone, but the second you start asking that its designs be taken away - just because you don't like them, for any reason - leaving the people that enjoy them with nothing is the second you should ask yourself how you'd feel if what you liked were taken away. Yes, there are games that have female characters that are not exploited, that do not show skin, that are not suggestive at every turn and that are utterly practical. Those games exist. So do these other games that do just the opposite. They both should exist. They both have a place. There are genres, not as popular in the west, that exploit male characters physically just as much. I don't personally like them, but I'd never call for them not to exist - someone obviously likes them, even if I don't . . . why should I call for that thing they enjoy to be taken away from them?

And there are people that seem to be calling for that, as if that games are the only thing that this happens in . . . when I can think of countless shows, movies and books that do the same. Games are a big thing to talk about now, of course, is why, and this happened to movies, and shows and books at one point or another too. Those times passed. They really should pass. As long as you're not actively, physically coming out and hurting someone you should be left to your presences, even if the visual style of those preferences isn't what everyone likes.
 

AgentLampshade

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Jim, I know you do these mid-video parts so gifs will be made of you. I know you do it, and I want you to continue doing it.
 

KefkaCultist

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Dragon's Crown looks like a ton of fun. Unfortunately I don't have a ps3 or vita to play it though. I love the art style and most of the character designs. The only character design I dislike that I've seen so far is the Amazon. Not because of the clothing (or lack-there-of), but because she just looks shitty IMO. What do I plan to do about that? Cry about my distaste for her design on the internet? Nah, I'll just play a different character if I play the game.
 

scw55

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Polar opposite was with Dragon Age 2 where the game wasn't perfect, didn't have enough production time, and everyone condemned it to hell.

I got enjoyment out of Dragon Age 2. I won't replay it like I did with DA1... but gave me joy.

I also still like Pokemon.
 

LordLundar

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Personally I tend to give the reviews that are out of the median more credence than those that do. If a game has relatively low scores but one review gives it a fair bit higher I give it more weight and vice versa. The reason for this is because the person gives it a more critical eye usually. Ones that are in lockstep with one another tend to want to fit in or are a target of some other collusion effort so they are very muck in lock step with each other. Some of those you can tell they were given a bullet point of features, shown a little footage and told to write a review because they're largely the same.

Now how does it affect me? Ehh, marginally. Whether or not I agree with a particular review is irrelevant. I do base it on my own experiences but the oddball reviews do encourage me to look at it with a more critical eye more than anything.

As for the DC case, the reviews I've seen not giving it high scores do tend to focus as the art style as the cause. That's fine, art is subjective and so are reviews. The art style interests me (I've been a fan of the other games with this style) so I don't get upset over it. The reviewers aren't forcing me to play it or avoid it so I see it as what it is: their opinion.
 

PunkRex

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Hades said:
So Jim, every time you mention Dynasty warriors 8 we get Zhang he on screen fighting against the yellow Turbans. Is he your favourite character?
He is.

I also captured over an hour of DW8 footage for Destructoid's video review and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna squeeze my money's worth out of it every time I mention the game.
Does 8 do anything new Jim? I stopped playing after 7 because I felt it was getting abit stale but... I do pine for the battle field.

OT: I really hate it when people hate on a reveiw, especially one thats genuine. In some respects, reveiwers could be coincidered artists and as such should be allowed to express themselves however they see fit. Personally, I like the look of Dragons Crown, the whole 'taking it to its extreme' has been done before but I like the look of the art. My sister on the other hand would be uncomfortable with the whole 'parody' aspect so I wouldn't expect her to like it, let alone play it.
 

Rangerboy87

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Jim was not wearing the right glasses and he did not have his red tie on!! I DEMAND this episode be stricken from the site immediately!! He wears those every episode so he should always wear it!! Quit trolling us Jim!! It be like Yahtzee without his hat! UNACCEPTABLE!!

*my analogy of the topic
 

Doom972

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I haven't heard of that review until this Jimquisition. The reason these things get blown out of proportions is because there is always one more guy who has one more thing to say about it. That includes this episode. I liked most of them but this one felt pointless.

If people think that that site has biased reviews, then they can always stop using that site. That's what I eventually did with Gamespot more than a decade back, and it never bothered me since.

I'm also reminded of the bad reviews Postal 2 got back in its time. While it was far from perfect, it was very fun and innovative. It got very low scores because it offended several religions and political views. Very few people complained about it though.
 

Andy Shandy

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Jun 7, 2010
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Another great video Jim, and I agree with the points that you've raised, especially the "why cause a fuss over the bad review" point. The only thing I thought was missing was perhaps talking about the Atlus PR Manager who commented on the review, saying

Love the review, Danielle. It's a fair assessment and completely factual. I'm truly thankful that it was you who wrote it, and wouldn't even think of requesting you change a single letter. The comments from the game's supporters are definitely disheartening. It's ok to not like a game based on an art style, and Polygon is allowed to score the game however they feel necessary. It goes through multiple levels of editing before it's fully approved, and they're entitled to their own, informed opinion of the game. I urge you to please respect the Danielle's/Polygon's opinion and then form your own instead of trying to force your opinion on them.
A class act, in my opinion
 

RaikuFA

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shirkbot said:
Wait... This was actually a thing? People actually got bent out of shape enough over a single review, and do so on a regular enough basis, that Jim felt he should do an episode about this? ... Fantastic.
It wasn't just that, the reviewer actually insulted the reader. That's something that should never have gotton past the editor. Hell, when Jim reviewed The Last Story, he gave it a 4, but said his review shouldn't deter people from enjoying it.

Also, it seems MS gives Polygon their checks. Which explains their TLoU review.
 

recurve6

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I love how Jim always shows Zhang He when he talks about Dynasty Warriors, he doesn't get enough love!
 

ineedscissors

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Off topic, I know, but I'm going crazy trying to figure out where the sinister music in the bit with the face hugger is from. Sounds like it might be from a PS1 era final fantasy game, but I just can't place it. Help?
 

geizr

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Meh, I say fuck 'em. Just because someone doesn't like a I game that I like (I like FFXIII...a lot...so there!), I feel no need to proselytize them into my world-view. It's perfectly okay for others to be different and have different tastes. Doesn't spoil my ability to enjoy the game one iota. The Universe has no obligation to conform to my ideals, and I am perfectly accepting and at harmony with this fact. In fact, I prefer it that way, because the Universe would be otherwise very boring if it did everything exactly as I expect and desire it to. There would be no surprise, nothing to look forward to or strive for. It's that little element of random that makes it interesting.

I'll be honest, I'm very much tempted to break my expense budget this month and go get this game, today, right now, in fact (it's only $50; I can probably deal with that), because I have a lot of interest in it, primarily because it harkens back to the old-school gaming days of my youth. Even further, I am most interested in playing the elf because I really like and prefer playing physical ranged characters (i.e. archers/rangers). The sorceress and her boobs blowing in the wind are comical and certainly cause me to chuckle (the videos of her are just so absurd, I can't help but laugh; however to me, her breasts are just images of a body part, nothing more and not the real thing), but she's otherwise uninteresting to me (in fact, to me, she looks like the worst playing character based on the trailers and previews). In fact, I'm pretty much not interested in any of the characters other than the elf simply because, as I said, I really like and prefer playing physical ranged characters.

EDIT: minor grammar corrections and word changes for clarity and emphasis.
 

lastjustice

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I can personally say I've never dwelled on the scores given to games for long. I'd be like well that's pretty dumb if I saw a score I thought was out of line, then proceed to do something else with my day with in a minute of that. Regardless of how well it reviews or gets panned I'd already made up my mind I'd check out Dragon's crown. I love old school beat em ups and so I want to get it since it's up my alley. I know what I like and I don't usually need to have someone else tell me what I like for me to buy it. I just needed to know the game existed (I saw a screen shot months/a year back in a magazine and forgot about the game till Jim had a video about it to remind me it existed and like yeah I want that game still.)

When I'm sitting there playing a game I don't think man if only it didn't get a review that wad bad on one website I know about I could really enjoy this game fully....What form of madness is that. I enjoyed Revenge of the Fallen, if I felt I had to defend that film on every front on the web I'd never sleep. I saw people trolling it just because they felt like it; At some point I just shrugged and went well I don't have to have an opinion on everything, everywhere. I just make my voice heard on the handful of sites I think matter enough for me be a part of the community of, and if people hate something else where....have at it. Some websites are just hiveminds on whatever thought process and you aren't going change their views no matter how many 10 page rants you post. (believe me I've tried hehe.)
 

lastjustice

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ineedscissors said:
Off topic, I know, but I'm going crazy trying to figure out where the sinister music in the bit with the face hugger is from. Sounds like it might be from a PS1 era final fantasy game, but I just can't place it. Help?
Final Fantasy 7 I believe.
 

WindKnight

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Earthfield said:
People defending DC: Ignore boobs,talk about gameplay.
People who hated it: Ignore gameplay, talk about boobs.

I feel in the eye of the hurricane now, but I'm still getting this, my only question now is if I should get this on PS3 or Vita.

Maybe I should do a comic about this...
I don't think anyones hated it because of boobs.

been made uncomfortable by its depiction of women, maybe, but no hatred. And its not so much its depiction itself, as what was intended as an exaggerated art-style meant to be an affectionate parody of fantasy tropes and art was still fairly interchangeable with how the industry generally depicts its female characters.