Jimquisition: Emotions, Polygons, and Ellen Page

Doug

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Apr 23, 2008
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Beryl77 said:
Yeah, good writing is necessary but I'd also like good facial expressions in games. I don't see why not and while Cage's stories could be better, I never got the feeling that he things writing is just secondary. I don't see why we can't have both. Quite a few games would have been better if in certain emotional situations, characters faces wouldn't look like they've used too much botox. Even if that emotional situation was created very well, I just can't take it fully serious if the face looks so stupid.
The issue is that Cage has been going on massively about how much better/emotional/etc the next gen will be due to graphics (probably because Sony beat him up until he agreed to do it, but we can't be sure). Of course, better graphics can be a useful tool for better audience sympathy with on screen characters, but its not necessary for a emotional, dramatic story or tale, as I'm sure your aware.

For people who think graphics == better emotions, I disagree; one of the best games I've played in terms of characters (emotions/development/etc) and story was Anachronox, an old game now that looked like crap even when it came out.


Edit:
FFP2 said:
This was amazing. That part at the end... truly the height of Jimquisition:p

David Cage really came off like a piece of shit in the PS4 conference. TWD had awful graphics/"polygons" and it was more emotional than anything he's ever come up with.
TWD == The Walking Dead?

If so, I disagree about "awful" graphics - it didn't have good graphics, but it was a choice style that meshed well with its source material
 

Novan Leon

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Dec 10, 2007
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Fallacy #1: Conveying emotions in videogames requires photo-realistic facial animation.
Fallacy #2: "Emotion" in videogames = lots of crying and drama

Emotion has more to do with character build-up, believability, the ability to relate to said characters, and tough moral dilemmas and decisions.

One of the most meaningful, i.e. "emotional", videogame scenes in recent memory was from the Valley of Defilement in Demon's Souls. [minor spoiler warning] After your character fights his/her way through the Valley of Defilement, a disgusting, wretched place filled with greif and vile monstrosities, you finally encounter a fallen priestess who was unwillingly turned into a demon, to the point that she loathes her own existence. Even despite her own self-loathing, her loyal guardian, a brave knight, remains determined to protect her from you, a character set on vanquishing all demons. The sheer desperation of these characters given their circumstances, and your own duty to kill characters you can sympathize with, is far more "emotional" than any dramatic, movie-like cutscene I've seen in a videogame, and it manages to accomplish this with minimal dialog and while keeping control in the player's hands throughout (i.e. no cutscenes whatsoever).

Good storytelling and game design with an emphasis on gameplay and writing, NOT cinematics, will trump all other attempts at conveying an "emotional" experience in this particular form of media, IMHO.
 

Lieju

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Jan 4, 2009
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Well, I liked Indigo prophecy.

It did cause a strong emotional reaction in me, mostly uncontrollable laughter.

Both Heavy Rain and Indigo prophecy had the problem that he could set up an interesting mystery, but had no idea how to explain it, so you get a very strong beginning and a mystery that falls apart once you get to the answers.

So it's pretty much like LOST.
 

qeinar

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Jul 14, 2009
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Anyone know why cage isn't developing games for pc when he cares that much about graphics?
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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qeinar said:
Anyone know why cage isn't developing games for pc when he cares that much about graphics?
I guess he hasn't mentioned that he cares about money a little bit more...
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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LazyAza said:
If ever their was a human being literally crammed too far up their own ass, it's David Cage. I watched a lets play of Heavy Rain a few months back and I gotta say, wow, like I knew it was bad but eeeesh. I've seen god knows how many crappy movies that weren't as crap as that "game".
Well, the thing is that "Heavy Rain" got a lot of praise, especially when it was new, for moving the genere along in terms of art and so on. Objectively it was kind of crap. A return to the era of "interactive movies" of the sort that choked game shelves when CD Roms were new for PCs and portables, and the industry went through a phase of being obssessed with digitizing real actors to play the role of characters in various games. This lead to things like "Ripper", or "Daedaelus Encounter" (starring Tia Carerra), and numerous others. The ill-fated 3DO was really into this and wound up featuring some of the most godawful games ever featuring terrible actors dressed in even worse costumes. The period DID have a few cult classics though like "The Horde" which starred Kirk Cameron (from Growing Pains) where the digitization didn't have much to do with the gameplay.

A lot of people like me pointed out that this was pretty much the same kind of garbage, just replacing the digitized actors with high quality "uncanny valley" animations to create a semi-interactive cartoon with a "serious" plotline, and got kind of battered badly even if we saw where it was going (that happens with me now).

Today guys like David Cage, high on the hype and praise they received before the gamers and the industry regained their sanity, suffer from cases of unwarrented self importance, and come accross as being both out of touch with reality and utterly pretentious.

That said, Heavy Rain *does* deserve praise for pulling of a few high quality, and sometimes fairly gruelling, scenes. But that's more a standout for a game that came accross as a movie, and had fairly good direction for a movie. It also admittedly touched some chords with some people in the interactions (like father and son) but again, you really can't do a lot to really "play" the game or signifigantly alter the outcome. At the end of the day it's a movie that let's you do exciting things like take control of brushing your character's teeth, and other exercises in sometimes absurd monotiny, on the way to it's handfull of genuinely clever moments.

Such are my thoughts. People praised some of the things the best moments of Heavy Rain made them feel, which has actually caused David Cage to forget pretty much everything everyone said about it, especially once the hype died down, and indeed occasionally sound like a self-help guru setting out to form his own cult of virtual polygon emotions.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Lieju said:
Well, I liked Indigo prophecy.

It did cause a strong emotional reaction in me, mostly uncontrollable laughter.

Both Heavy Rain and Indigo prophecy had the problem that he could set up an interesting mystery, but had no idea how to explain it, so you get a very strong beginning and a mystery that falls apart once you get to the answers.

So it's pretty much like LOST.
A genere change can be tricky to pull off, especially if not intended to begin with, OR set up to catch the viewer by surprise. The problem with things like "Indigo Prophecy" is that it leads you to believe it's one thing, but doesn't really pull off the transition from the build up to the climax well. You need to build your wierdness up before dropping it all in a pile. "Heavy Rain" was just mediocre to begin with, it had all the same problems pretty much every seriel-killer mystery does when you really stop to think about it. Pacing tends to be very important, especially with video games.

With LOST, I put it in a differant catagory, largely because there was no excuse for what happened with it. They had more than enough time to pace that show well, but instead they just threw out wierdness after wierdness, and didn't even bother to think about tying it all up until the ratings started to slide, and then went grabbing for any dumb rationales they could use, letting a lot of the established mysteries from early on never really be solved or adequetly explained.

As an example of a show that I think did it fairly well (and continued to survive) I'd point to "Supernatural". It began as a pretty typical "monster of the week" show where a couple of basic action-dudes go to wierd places looking for wierd stuff, and wind up taking it out. It later turned into biblical fantasy with angels, demons, and super monsters greater than either running major corperations. They pulled it off by building into that gradually through the first couple of seasons, which is why it didn't go from being relatively low key to "OMG, Super Saiyans fighting in the middle of the street" the way Indigo Prophecy did. With about 20 or so more hours of game/gamplay working into the finale more gradually Indigo Prophecy could have been good. It made sense, it's just the pacing was terri-bad, way too sudden. :)

In short, I agree with you. Just throwing some of my thoughts out there. :)
 

cefm

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Anyone who's played the iOS "Walking Dead" game (the dramatic series, not the Facebook crapfest) can attest that it has extremely primitive 2-d graphics, but HOLY CRAP does it ever carry an emotional punch.
 

s_h_a_d_o

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Jun 15, 2010
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cyvaris said:
That was....interesting and a great parody.
Not really.

David Cage may appear to commit the crime of pretentiousness at times, however that is often the case with those who are both passionate and creative.

Until Jim actually demonstrates some talent in respect to the latter, he strikes me as guilty to a far greater degree.
 

The_Echo

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Mar 18, 2009
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That was a good parody; I chuckled a fair amount. I think that bloating his statements from the Sony thing into some big ol' thing is a bit much. Still funny, and extra points for committing to the joke the whole video.

But the implication that Cage's games are 'filth' (EDIT: I guess he said film.) in the beginning there? I mean... [small]I thought they were good...[/small]
 

Flunk

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Feb 17, 2008
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I found this episode very boring, maybe if I cared who David Cage was I would have cared more.
 

Trollhoffer

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JohnnyDelRay said:
Another thing that comes to mind, the Extra Credits episode a while back about game soundtracks. Why are they so much more 'memorable' and amazing from the 8 and 16-bit days? Because of the limited sounds and instruments that could be programmed into each game, they had to rely on making the melodies really catchy and stick in your mind, and also to not get annoying. This took a lot of work and ingenuity of course.

But does that mean that nowadays, we shouldn't have the beautifully composed, layered orchestras that accompany games like Final Fantasy and Mass Effect, or Jesper Kyd's atmospheric sounds? That option is to us, and does it not succeed in creating emotion when used effectively? Do you want to go back to 16-bit sounds? Ok, I myself remember soundtracks from games I played in those days, very guilty of it in fact (hardly remember themes of these days longer than a few months after putting a game down, except for Skyrim), but I'm glad we have the technology and continue to push it. There's nothing wrong with pushing these boundaries, people!
The thing is that the "rules" for creating good music have remained constant. Additional tools have certainly empowered game music, but it's interesting to note that a lot of the best video game music is modern arrangements of those 8 and 16-bit classics. Having authentic instruments playing those pieces absolutely makes them better, in my book. But they were composed so gracefully in the first place that they don't hinge on modern technological capacities in delivering music within video games, and there's no doubt a lot of modern games suffer from a lack of good music -- especially the ones in a place to deliver something amazing.

Many of the biggest games of our generation have failed to deliver memorable music. God of War, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and so on. These are games that have earned a lot of attention, money and gameplay hours, but they don't have a musical experience that's just as effective outside of the game. In comparison, games like The Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy have extremely memorable music that carries the meaning of its original context outside of the game experience itself.
 

LazyAza

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Therumancer said:
LazyAza said:
If ever their was a human being literally crammed too far up their own ass, it's David Cage. I watched a lets play of Heavy Rain a few months back and I gotta say, wow, like I knew it was bad but eeeesh. I've seen god knows how many crappy movies that weren't as crap as that "game".
Well, the thing is that "Heavy Rain" got a lot of praise, especially when it was new, for moving the genere along in terms of art and so on. Objectively it was kind of crap. A return to the era of "interactive movies" of the sort that choked game shelves when CD Roms were new for PCs and portables, and the industry went through a phase of being obssessed with digitizing real actors to play the role of characters in various games. This lead to things like "Ripper", or "Daedaelus Encounter" (starring Tia Carerra), and numerous others. The ill-fated 3DO was really into this and wound up featuring some of the most godawful games ever featuring terrible actors dressed in even worse costumes. The period DID have a few cult classics though like "The Horde" which starred Kirk Cameron (from Growing Pains) where the digitization didn't have much to do with the gameplay.

A lot of people like me pointed out that this was pretty much the same kind of garbage, just replacing the digitized actors with high quality "uncanny valley" animations to create a semi-interactive cartoon with a "serious" plotline, and got kind of battered badly even if we saw where it was going (that happens with me now).

Today guys like David Cage, high on the hype and praise they received before the gamers and the industry regained their sanity, suffer from cases of unwarrented self importance, and come accross as being both out of touch with reality and utterly pretentious.

That said, Heavy Rain *does* deserve praise for pulling of a few high quality, and sometimes fairly gruelling, scenes. But that's more a standout for a game that came accross as a movie, and had fairly good direction for a movie. It also admittedly touched some chords with some people in the interactions (like father and son) but again, you really can't do a lot to really "play" the game or signifigantly alter the outcome. At the end of the day it's a movie that let's you do exciting things like take control of brushing your character's teeth, and other exercises in sometimes absurd monotiny, on the way to it's handfull of genuinely clever moments.

Such are my thoughts. People praised some of the things the best moments of Heavy Rain made them feel, which has actually caused David Cage to forget pretty much everything everyone said about it, especially once the hype died down, and indeed occasionally sound like a self-help guru setting out to form his own cult of virtual polygon emotions.
Geezus dood write a god damn book why don't ya. Cage is a hack but sure his games are admiral in some respects, his company is one of few trying to do some unique things with the medium in regards to further expanding what a game can and cannot be and do but the way they keep missing so many key things and relying so crucially on just copying film is completely against how games should be evolving story telling wise. I like what they "want" to achieve bout the how, why and final results are laughable. A single environment in Half Life 2 tells a better story than any moment in Heavy Rain.
 

lostlevel

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Nov 6, 2008
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The_Echo said:
That was a good parody; I chuckled a fair amount. I think that bloating his statements from the Sony thing into some big ol' thing is a bit much. Still funny, and extra points for committing to the joke the whole video.

But the implication that Cage's games are 'filth' in the beginning there? I mean... [small]I thought they were good...[/small]
I haven't played any of his games but they do seem intriguing, Beyond Two Souls looks like it's going to be good but not good enough for me to buy a PS3 this late in the generation. Still the sort BS reminded me of the PS4 announcement thing.

Surely the mechanics are the most important part of a game, then the writing/story, and then the graphics. After all you play games rather than watch them.
 

Griffolion

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Aug 18, 2009
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I didn't understand this. :(

Something to do with polygons and emotions? What's the connection?