Jimquisition: Fee-to-Pay and the Death of Dignity

[Pebkio]

Wha? Buh? Nani? Console games are on the leading edge of bad business practices? Well color me shocked. In fact, I can't believe you'd sully the image of consoles. At all.

So, Jim... when did this become the Stating the Obvious Show? I like when you point out the stuff that we tend not to focus on, like the journalism practices thing, but who out there is thinking to themselves "Oh hey, I just LOVE paying $60 for half of a game." I'd like to hazard a guess and say maybe 100 people. Sure, you can point out that millions of people still buy these games but OH HEY LOOK A SHINEY THING! *jingles some keys*

How about, instead of railing against what's obviously bad, dig up some obscure bad and rail against that instead. On a tangental note I'd like to say that PC gamers are above this sort of thing but OH HEY LOOK SIMS 3! *jingles a third of the keys that we used to get*

 

[truckspond]

Does anyone else remember when the price of the game got you the entirety of the main game and the only DLC was additional content rather than stuff cut from the main game?

So far the only developer I have seen that has not cut stuff from the main game to sell as DLC is Telltale games and even then the additional content is cheap and if you want to buy the main game in one go you can do so. There is no need for DLC to get the main story

 

[Thanatos2k]

snip

snippity snip

Yet you don't need every single champion and skin (which would indeed take a lot of cash or grinding)to enjoy yourself in League of Legends. I manage just fine with the one champion I purchased through grinding (wouldn't exactly call it that though, you earn points by just participating in matches, which you do anyway, right?) and the completely free champions from the weekly cycles. I've enjoyed myself far longer without spending any money in League than I would in a modern 60$ game.

And you don't need every character in a fighting game unlocked to enjoy yourself, but your content is still restricted. It prevents you from becoming a more rounded player as well because now you're limiting yourself intentionally due to the restrictions and pretending you're having a full experience.

I enjoyed myself far longer playing the original Dota (which was a $50+$30 game in having to buy Warcraft 3 and TFT) than I ever got in LoL, which I just couldn't take because of the restrictions. New Dota content was released for free after all and everything was ALWAYS available.

I assure you I am having a full experience (or as full as it can get for me, I also have to do other shit than play videogames all day). Great... now that we got that outta the way, lets address your other points shall we...

You mention both Dota and "insert fighting game title X" both of which you allude to having an entry fee in place. You just answered your own argument there eh? You have already paid the developer (at least for the fighting game) a completely unreasonable sum of around sixty bucks, you are of course fully in your right to demand the complete package. League however has no such luxury, do they now? No they don't, everything they get is paid because people like the game and would like to contribute by buying stuff (or because, you know they just like getting those champions and skins). As for limiting myself to one playstyle, I already said in my post that there are new trial champions every week, so it it your choice whether you want to change it up or not.

You aren't getting a full experience though, you've just convinced yourself that you are because you are filling the mold of the limitations. If you said "I want to use this hero right now" you couldn't do it without paying. In old Dota I could do exactly that.

And really, you're calling the price of a full game "unreasonable"? Seriously? Do you know how much value you got out of Warcraft 3? Not only do you get the single player campaigns, but unlimited multiplayer, AND unlimited multiplayer for battle.net custom maps, of which Dota is just one of. For over 9 years I played on Warcraft 3 playing not just regular WC3 but Dota and every kind of random tower defense, arena RPG and screwed up multiplayer custom map people could cook up.

I'd say you get your money's worth ten times over, and they didn't have to compromise their game design to do it. They didn't have to worry about how best to psychologically pressure you into desiring to purchase things because there was nothing to purchase.

You claim everyone is getting a full experience but really all that happens is the Jago effect from the new Killer Instinct - he's the only free character you get so nearly EVERYONE plays him. Same with LoL - most people are playing the free heroes available and it really undermines the variety. Never was an issue with Dota, and isn't an issue in Dota 2.

 

[Mr. Omega]

As others have said, it's times like this that I'm glad Nintendo's off in their own little world instead of trying to shove this down our throats.

So how did you enjoy Fire Emblem: Awakening?

Now now, hold on. I will say that FE: A was a full-fledged game, complete-sized, no doubt about it. But at the same time, you did have DLC coinciding with its launch, and had a steady stream of DLC maps that only offered 2 different classes, and the rest were remakes of maps easily doable with the FE:A Engine map creation tools Intelligent Systems had, and a couple smatterings of actually good plot-wise DLC (and I'm not spoiling which ones here). Oh, and its equivalent of a fanservice beach episode.

My question is, is this how you do DLC right? Will it be- of all companies- Nintendo that sets the gold standard for how you do DLC correctly?

It was ok. A mixed bag. I only got the plot-wise DLC because that was the only one that interested me. I also got the free maps that let you get the bonus characters like Emmeryn or Priam. I did like that there was some free bonus content even if one didn't want the DLC.

The DLC itself was overpriced, but other than that it got everything right. It added to the story without really being essential. Not perfect, but far from the worst, and more good than bad. I personally prefer the expansion pack stuff like New Super Luigi U for NSMBU.

As for Nintendo handling DLC right... well, if they can handle Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros 4 fine, then I'd say there's nothing to worry about. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[irishda]

While I agree that microtransactions in already paid for games are dumb, I'm not entirely sure "psychological manipulation" is the correct term there. Saying companies are "psychologically manipulating" you is just saying "I can't control my spending habits". It completely removes any sort of responsibility on the consumer's part to not just blindly throw money every time the game say "Press X to spend more money." It's not "conning" if it says "give us this much money for this." That's just called "charging for a product", and if you feel that amount is too much (and I agree $100 is a lot of money for most anything), that still only makes it a gross example of overcharging.

I just don't understand it. The companies aren't stealing your credit card number and forcing you to buy this. They haven't kidnapped your family and threatened to off them one by one unless you buy the super expensive red rocket racer car. So why does this cross from the realm of idiocy into some sort of evil, horrific, greatest atrocity against capitalism since Stalin? Literally this giant "problem" is fixed by going, "Nah, I'm not gonna buy that."

 

[Icehearted]

I don't have the same faith in the market you do, but if all these bubbles do burst and these fat bloated companies do suffer for it it'll be a very good day indeed.

This is exactly how I feel, but I will take it a little further and add that resistance is waning, and lines have been drawn and crossed, proving that there is a tolerance threshold that exceeds reasonable on the user end. An example would be Xbox live Gold subscriptions, which people often to this day consider a "Deal" when they can buy it cheaper than arbitrarily suggested retail value. I don't know enough about the current generation, but last generation by and large too many games were server-less, and for a plethora of reasons the subscription fees were unjustifiable. Did that change minds? Nope. Didn't do anything but create a market of games with online components shoehorned into everything, in some cases to a hideous degree. EA and it's finger-puppet BioWare even took it further with Mass Effect 3, making the multi-player component a feature that affected the single player experience, all of which were about selling the Gold subscription idea to even more people. That decadence in action, and people lapped it up getting "good deals" on subscription cards for something people could otherwise do for free on PC and even on a rival console.

I don't think this will change, if nothing else the training, the conditioning that it's perfectly normal to pay extra for cut content or shit that shouldn't cost extra had settled in and taken root years ago. If anything the rift between those that are against it and those that really don't care about where they throw "a few extra dollars LOL don't be so entitled!" has grown long and deep and may see the market splinter long before it will or could ever crash.

Another fantastic video, Jim. Keep fighting the good fight, we need more like you out there using the mic to look out for the little guy. Stay real, mate.

 

[Something Amyss]

The solution is really straightforward

Abstain from consoles, spend a bit more money upfront (but less money overall) to buy a PC and hook it up to your TV.

And stop buying corporate published games. Period.

See, everything but that last step is unnecessary.

Actually, so is the last step.

Is it that hard to just stop supporting the specific people whose practices you abhor? Or is every game corporation evil?

Oh okay. Because nothing bad happens on PC.

In fairness, PC manufacturers are all altruistic.

Either consumers will choose to cease paying for these extra fees out of a feeling of disgust with the business practice, or they will cease paying because they will no longer be capable of paying them as this renders each individual game more and more expensive to play.

Or they'll hit a sweet spot of deceptively small MTs that keep people continuously gorging on content with little substance and keep people playing these games for significantly longer.

The sad part is when the bubble busts, it won't be the people responsible for it that will suffer. CEO's and other Executives are guaranteed money in the event of a crash and are making plenty of it now. It's the people who work the long hours making the game that will get laid off.

I find the way he talks about a market correction as disturbing as the people who refute "save the earth" with "the earth will be fine."

Well, technically true, but in the aftermath of a human-made disaster the earth might not be habitable, which I would call undesirable. The gaming market will likewise be impacte din ways we can't necessarily foresee. And there's one impact that we've seen that may end up happening. Jim mentions Acivision and Guitar Hero, the franchise which not only took itself down but the whole genre. Now, it was always a niche franchise, so the effects may not be as servere, but what impact might a similar "adjustment" have on another genre?

And yes, what you say intertwines with that. The executives don't take many hits, and even when they do they tend to be more along the lines of "I'm going to retire with a 6-7 figure bonus and get a new job doing the same shit." Who will take the hit? Well, the grunts, for one. But we're already seeing whole studios shut down for only releasing a "moderate" success.

I'm sure the industry will survive, but does that mean it will survive in a way that won't be overcome by toxic waste? Should the bubble burst, will bread and butter customers return? what studios will there be?

Jim isn't just railing against F2P games, though. He's trying to point out the fact that microtransactions and DLC have had a noticeably negative effect on the entire video games industry.

And indeed, F2P can be awesome. DLC can be awesome. IAP can be awesome. But he's right. The overall effect, how they're being useD? Not awesome.

No, don't tell me, I'm gonna take a wild guess....

It has something to do with that Angry Birds racing video game and its 100$ micro-transactions.

Well, yes. It has something to do with it. As in it's mentioned once. But if you'd bothered with the video, it really has little to do with it. It might even be worth your time.

Console games are on the leading edge of bad business practices?

Thankfully, you will never see such practices on a PC. Because they're completely different ecosystems, and leading edge for one is alien to the other.

 

[Cybylt]

As others have said, it's times like this that I'm glad Nintendo's off in their own little world instead of trying to shove this down our throats.

So how did you enjoy Fire Emblem: Awakening?

Now now, hold on. I will say that FE: A was a full-fledged game, complete-sized, no doubt about it. But at the same time, you did have DLC coinciding with its launch, and had a steady stream of DLC maps that only offered 2 different classes, and the rest were remakes of maps easily doable with the FE:A Engine map creation tools Intelligent Systems had, and a couple smatterings of actually good plot-wise DLC (and I'm not spoiling which ones here). Oh, and its equivalent of a fanservice beach episode.

My question is, is this how you do DLC right? Will it be- of all companies- Nintendo that sets the gold standard for how you do DLC correctly?

I think that the day one dlc thing is a bit more of an iffy issue when the game had been out in Japan for a year before hand since there's considerably less work in translating unvoiced scripts. Unless that stuff what also day one in Japan. I think it's possible with the money and exp grinder maps since that is stuff you can create and change in about an hour though it's entirely extraneous.

You also get the entire game in its complete state without any dlc while other examples of it feel like they were cut out of the finished product and put behind a pay gate. On top of all that, you have a good amount of free downloads through street pass that let you battle, trade with, and recruit the heroes of previous games, give you a bunch of free gear, and then a couple of special recruitment missions too.

All that without putting a single extra penny down.

However, Nintendo still doesn't really know how to price downloads and it shows with some single maps being $3-4. Even then, maybe that's not a thing to really complain about since Activision's releases $10+ singular maps that are about the same size.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

You have previously commented that this is pushed by the publishers against the will of the devs and yet have a look at Shroud of the Avatar, a kickstarter funded RPG which advertised not to be "nickle and dimming people", advertised that it was buy to own, advertised that the only thing you would have to pay for is if they introduced something like a new skill tree which took significant development time. Promised this so people would put 100s and 1000s into the game and then we get this
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=9085

Not only are all the houses now for sale for real money, directly the opposite of what was shown in the prototype to get people to plegde but now we have such wonders as:

Lord British Cloak (digital) $30

Be the first in your neighborhood to get the new Lord British cloak, beautifully adorned with Lord British's Coat-of-Arms! There is a secret in-game effect that wearing Lord British's cloak will invoke.

The Axe of Prosperity (digital) $15

This unique indestructible axe increases the quality and quantity of the wood harvested as well as increasing the speed of harvesting. While axes with similar effects can be crafted and purchased in the game this particular axe never needs repair.

The Fishing Pole of Prosperity (digital) $15

This unique, indestructible fishing pole increases your chance to catch fish, the quality of the fish caught and the speed they are caught. While fishing poles with similar effects can be crafted and purchased in the game, this particular fishing pole never needs repair.

Taming Turkey Call (digital) $15

This unique indestructible item can be used to call a Turkey which is then automatically tamed. While items with similar effects can be crafted and purchased in the game this particular call never needs repair.

Cornucopia (digital) $15

No holiday table would be complete without its own cornucopia centerpiece! But it is more than just an attractive table decoration, this Horn of Plenty generates a random edible item or ingredient per day (food, fruit, berries, mushrooms, flour, egg, etc.). During the Fall and holiday seasons there is a percentage chance of other kinds of items being generated.

The Pickaxe of Prosperity (digital) $15

This unique indestructible Pickaxe increases the quality and quantity of the ore mined as well as increasing the speed of mining. While pickaxes with similar effects can be crafted and purchased in the game this particular pickaxe never needs repair.

and this is just the start, there is already plans to require people to pay for increases in inventory space and pay there rent on there property in real money. Oh sure you CAN pay in in game gold but you can bet they will be making it prohibitally expensive so that real money is the only way viable

This from a game which not only intends to retail at $40 DIGITAL but which asked its supporters to put in $1000s and then Ritchard Garrot has the audacity to declare that even though he stated this was a BUY TO OWN game, that people would need to be supporting the game after buying it

 

[daxterx2005]

This was the first time I'd heard of the Angry birds racer....
I'm a push over for kart racers....
IF it ever gets ported to 3DS I'll probably get it.

 

[Pebkio]

Console games are on the leading edge of bad business practices?

Thankfully, you will never see such practices on a PC. Because they're completely different ecosystems, and leading edge for one is alien to the other.

You... um... must've missed the rest of my post. Or, at least, that little bit about Sims 3. Your sarcasm is, needless to say, very poorly received.

If you were actually being serious, then I would like to point out that "PC Gaming" is not the same as "The Independant Market". Don't get me wrong, I play nothing but PC games, but the AAA bullshittery can happen to us same as anyone. Ports happen, for one, but even so, you could trace AAA problems back to us... tangentally. There are two place where F2P thrive and current practices are following what we get from our PC MMOs.

The best you can say about PC gaming is that we have so many many many many many other manymanymany infinite Icannotexpressthecontrastenough choices in our gaming that we don't have to put up with Fee to Pay nonsense. Something that Jim should've brought up is that exclusivity, absense of open source, and a lack of backwards compatibility has led to this. Xbox One Players don't really have a choice, so they have to put up with whatever AAA publishers feed them.

But that's it, to claim the two markets are anethma to themselves is a bit fantastical.

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh let me give the game breakdowns I know about.


Ryse son of rome, Paying for in game gold to buy level ups, Easily ignoreable ((why does this scream something that they put in for game reveiwers to give with the game free codes so, hey level up so you can be sure to use all the awesome moves in your half hour review)) annoyance 1/10

Crimson dragon, I'm not sure what it was before launch cause I heard it was changed, but now it's just paying for the other in-game currency that is only getable from earning medals and daily log ons every once in a while. The only thing you HAVE to buy with the currency is the top level item pack which give you more items that are in the packs that you can buy with the money you make playing the game, and an "evolution seed" a random item needed to evolve or change attributes of dragons. Problem is you get 1 and most dragons need several so it's not a short cut anyway. You have to grind to level up, grind to get the rest of the evolution seeds so there is now no point to giving them money what so ever, which after maxing out two dragons after beating before giving the game a rest I never will give them any more money. annoyance 2/10 at least from what I played

Forza 5, Now this one spits in your face. There is buying tokens along side of buying car packs. Now when you buy a car pack it only UNLOCKS the car, You still have to purchase the car with in game funds or tokens before you own the car. Now how much do you think the DLC cars are gonna cost in game being all high end make and model cars, A DAMN LOT. You can also spend the tokens on leveling up twice as fast which I see as completely useless because the only reason to level up really is for bragging rights so who cares, and the money you get for leveling up so why not just use the tokens as money in the first place! Annoyance 7/10 since both buy car packs and level up faster come up all the damn time.

Powerstar golf, Now this rounds up the fee to play nicely. It's a fun golf game that plays about as well as hot shots without much content course or golfer wise so it's excusable for 20 dollar launch game. The game is great with loading every whole and showing what your friends longest drive and closest approach for every hole is and other stuff but the problem with it is You NEED equipment to compete. Even if it's just for golds in the career mode Equipment has such and impact that you can be the most skilled golfer but when a noob can out drive you 100-150 yards and have better accuracy to boot it becomes grind to win, and eventually pay to win. Equipment is bought in random packs in different grades, the best grade being 60,000. After you've finished the career mode or at least all you can do there is no more easy money. you either get 200 credits per normal hole, or 300 credits per hole on extreme... Considering an 18 hole round can take 30 mins to an hour you have hours before being able to afford another one of the best pack, and being random to boot a low chance of getting something you need. So quite literally the best players in the world, at least for months, will only be the players that paid 50-100 dollars extra on in game money Annoyance 10/10 and sadly not enough people will complain or even buy the game to fix it.

 

[ender1986]

"Have some fucking dignity game industry."

LOL, said by the legions of people who feel the need to continually fork over a couple bucks to buy in-game currency or in-game goods or whatever. Your dignity's over there, it fell out of your pocket when you busted your wallet out to buy your 20th skin pack for that first person shooter that you can't even see.

I've read the reports on the psychology of ftp games, and they're interesting to say the least, I just don't think it's some grave injustice to the consumer like so many people try to claim it is. Your resolve gets tested every day from numerous sources, I'm not going to slam the video game industry because I falsely believe they have some moral obligation to opt out.

People hate this saying, but these companies exist to make money, and I'm perfectly okay with that, since it's ultimately up to us to decide whether or not they get it. If you want this to be a big industry, an industry big enough to warrant sites like The Escapist and weekly video series including The Jimquisition, then you're going to have to put up with the big publishers and their bottom line.

 

[Something Amyss]

You... um... must've missed the rest of my post. Or, at least, that little bit about Sims 3. Your sarcasm is, needless to say, very poorly received.

I didn't miss your post. Contradicting a statement like that doesn't actually make it any better. It just makes it more inane. Which was sort of the point of my response.

You can lecture me all you want, but you've enhanced my point, not harmed it.

Edit: Hit post too soon.

The best you can say about PC gaming is that we have so many many many many many other manymanymany infinite Icannotexpressthecontrastenough choices in our gaming that we don't have to put up with Fee to Pay nonsense.

And doesn't that make the fact that they're still popular on PC even worse? I mean, at least with console games you can argue they have no choice (though that's nonsense), but with all those infinitesimal options, PC users choose to reward such practices in droves. Choose. Your own word. Their choice is to tuck in at the Fee to Pay table.

 

[Something Amyss]

I just don't understand it.

Then don't accuse people of trying to absolve themselves of personal responsibility.

Yes, you clearly don't understand it. You don't understand that this psychological manipulation being spoken of is based in real psychological phenomenon that can be reliably modeled. That's fine. But don't accuse others of making excuses when you're excusing your own lack of understanding by making accusations.

Businesses spend millions to exploit the consumer's psychology. It is, in fact manipulative. And the thing is, odds are very good you're not immune. Yes, even if you don't spend a ton of money on IAPs. behaviorists have a field day with people who think they're better or smarter than people and are therefore above manipulation. BF Skinner had several good examples during his lifetime.

In fact, one can even be intellectually aware of such manipulation and still be vulnerable.

Not only are all the houses now for sale for real money, directly the opposite of what was shown in the prototype to get people to plegde but now we have such wonders as:

Well, one company lied, so...They all do? I'm sorry, if your statement is something else, I'm not following it. One example does not a pattern make and there will always be small companies that try to emulate larger companies. That does not in itself make for a pattern larger than just that.

Yes, some devs will be scumbags, and even some indie devs will be. But holding that against the movement as a whole (as opposed to holding the actions of most or all of the big pubs against the whole) is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I mean, I've been ripped by a game or two on Steam. Does that mean Steam is full of bad games and people shouldn't use it or champion it? Or does it mean that a couple of bad developers have manipulated the system and lied? Surely, there's room for improvement within the Steam framework, but the presence of some bad games does not a bad system make.

This was the first time I'd heard of the Angry birds racer....

I only knew about it before this because of Checkpoint, LoadingReadyRun's news comedy show on another site. They actually made comments about this same thing on the episode that aired the same day, too. Not really meaningful, just kind of cool.

"Have some fucking dignity game industry."

LOL, said by the legions of people who feel the need to continually fork over a couple bucks to buy in-game currency or in-game goods or whatever.

Honestly, who said this other than Jim? I mean, it's been echoed by a few since, but it's hardly legions. And I doubt you particularly know Jim's spending habits.

Further, if you're aware of how this works (and that it works), what's with mocking people for their lack of dignity?

Lastly, yes. Companies exist to make money. That's a worthless argument. Is anyone really contesting it? I mean, you say people are, but is anybody really saying companies exist for purely non-profit, altruistic reasons? I think not. I doubt many people even think they should. People can accept this fact and still dislike the way money is made. and really? Criticism is part of the way that we make that decision. The people complaining are part of the systemk you're championing as you're complaining.

 

[ender1986]

Honestly, who said this other than Jim? I mean, it's been echoed by a few since, but it's hardly legions. And I doubt you particularly know Jim's spending habits.

Further, if you're aware of how this works (and that it works), what's with mocking people for their lack of dignity?

Lastly, yes. Companies exist to make money. That's a worthless argument. Is anyone really contesting it? I mean, you say people are, but is anybody really saying companies exist for purely non-profit, altruistic reasons? I think not. I doubt many people even think they should. People can accept this fact and still dislike the way money is made. and really? Criticism is part of the way that we make that decision. The people complaining are part of the system you're championing as you're complaining.

Mocking? I certainly didn't mean for it to sound demeaning. We all make stupid purchases, I'm in that camp more often than not, but I don't blame whoever I buy from.

Companies exist to make money, it SHOULD be a worthless argument, but it's not, because people will continue to slam publishers and developers any time they try to make money in any way other than a straight sale. This necessitates reminders.

 

[pointless vandalism]

I'm so glad that all PVP games (My one true love) are becoming pay to win. Fuck skill right? Let all the babbies run around in 2500+ gear because they paid for it. And they will, because screaming awful 16 year olds who want to be gladiators will totally shriek at their parents to hand over their CC info. Huzzah.