Jimquisition: Fight in the Name of Childishness

Jimothy Sterling

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Fight in the Name of Childishness

Maturity and reason are considered virtues in the realm of debate, but when one side insists on childishness, the other can never win. That side may think it'll prove itself superior with logic and facts, but you cannot teach the terminally stupid. You can only fight fire with the fire, and The Jimquisition embraces that.

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viranimus

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Nov 20, 2009
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Oh really Jim? Not entirely sure on that. People can and often do surprise you with what they selectively choose to learn and adopt. Honestly right or wrong there is nothing wrong with expecting things to not boil down to the lowest common denominator.
 

Magikarp

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Jan 26, 2011
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A very interesting & valid point, but it saddens me to think that immaturity is the only way to get results.
 

Joe McGahan

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May 9, 2011
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It's effective alright, but I don't think I could live in a world where we all sink to Fox News level.
 

shadowmagus

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I will totally nominate myself to be the talking head to yells over people. It's an unfortunate truth, and I think Jim is right that we need someone willing to yell over the anti-gaming establishment.
 

AgentBJ09

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Makes sense to me. Save the debates for the times when someone's face isn't being broadcast on FOX, MSNBC, or any other networks. They're mostly there for ratings when it comes to opinion pieces, like the SEXBOX bit. As the saying goes, "If it burns, it earns."

That said, I've heard about the lack of time that anchors get to research a topic before talking about it live, which seems to hold somewhat true for guests as well, but during the Geoff interview, he did manage to expose his opponent early by asking if she had actually played Mass Effect. Granted, most viewers missed it since it was all about the sex, but he did get something by being civil at first.
 

Booze Zombie

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People can only put up with so much being chucked at them before they cave in, it's not delicate as a tactic, but it does work as 10 year old me will tell you.
 

adrakonis

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You're never to old to be childish.

It's not always effective, but that just matters on the audiance in question.
 

cornmancer

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I don't like it, I've thought the opposite for some time, but now that I think about it, you're probably right.
And good on you, Jim, for not giving a shit about the people here who hate you and openly fighting back.
 

Swifteye

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The method he is suggesting is kinda like fight fire with fire. But I would rather reference the dark knight. Batman isn't the hero we need. it's the hero we deserve. Or something like that. Personally though I'm a posh guy so I couldn't troll anyone if that was necessary but I really don't approve of companies burying there head in the sand and caving when it comes to handling these situations. Until people like EA and assorted decide to start doing what needs to be done we are gonna have to rely on trolls who attack and spam for great wins.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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You know something, he's right. We've tried being the bigger people here, but nobody gives a fuck about what we say yet because we haven't done anything to make them listen. So let's make some fucking noise!
 

chstens

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Holy shit, he's right. At least in the US, people acting like children to defend their points over here gets laughed at in the media.
 

drisky

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Valid points I didn't consider, always good to hear. I also like that mature gamers are Babar.
 

hardband

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Wait, so you were trying to argue that we should argue with immaturity using a logical argument? LOL

But, to be fair you did raise some good points with the video and you are right about the news stations being a slang fest. I personally believe everything should be argued through logic (not just games), but that just doesn't happen most of the time and the person spouting the most nonsense will usually win. Shame that :(
 

Dok Zombie

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The exact same thing happened on Alan Titchmarsh's daytime chat show. The game's industry bod (who's name I forget) was essentially shouted down and booed by an audience and panel of "experts" who had already made up their mind before the debate started. The guy remained calm and reserved throughout the whole thing, but failed to get his point across even remotely.

But then again, who give's two fuck's what what a TV gardener thinks about Grand Theft Warfare: Modern Killzone 3 anyway?
 

Ryu890

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Hmm...if we need our own Jack Thompson.....

Maybe you could do it Mr.Sterling? *shrugs* You're certainly sweary-enough.
 

42

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Anyone want to volunteer and become our Jack Thompson?
 

Mad1Cow

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If we stoop to lawyer Jack level, we'll just meet his same fate, being ridiculed by the masses, shunned by the courts and made to be a complete fool in general. It doesn't work. Why did the Amazon bombing work? Becuase it was a group, there was no public response to a single entity going "geez that guy sounds like a douche" because it wasn't a single attack, it was a massive group riot and it worked. I bet if you organised every gamer who gave a crap to be outside Fox News crying for them to stop bashing on games, or they'd get Anonymous on you, they'd be a big chance they'd stop bashing on games for a bit. Sure, it's an empty threat, but they wouldn't know that, it's Fox, they're gullible idiots.
 

Robert Drapp

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I have a weird thought: Why don't we let the aloof "Mature" gamers continue to try and educate the masses and in essence direct the army of childish? Aiming them where they are most effective when logic and reason fail. That to me would shatter any arguement from any bible thumping, anti-game idoit. You're video Jim, whether you realize it or not, just demonstrated that it works. Oh, you don't wanna listen to my valid arguements and simply resort to shouting? Fine. My Army of "childish" gamers will sink any product/book/movie/show to such a level that you'll need a new word to decribe how low you've sunk.
 

vxicepickxv

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Sep 28, 2008
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chstens said:
Holy shit, he's right. At least in the US, people acting like children to defend their points over here gets laughed at in the media.
Did you actually see that debate? It wasn't so much a debate as it was a man who was right being shouted at for the whole thing.
 

Bajinga

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I loved this video! It made a point too.
Fox News seems like the place that immaturity is needed to win.
On shows like (my most watched and most loved news channel. Not to say that there aren't others.) BBC News, they do occasionally read out letters from the public, it is a great and formal approach to a situation taht may have caused some outrage.

I'd go as far as to say a website like 4chan (as immature and stupid as the people on there generally are) has done this well, they DDoS'd PayPal, and well... It worked.

I'm not encouraging your point there, Jim, but I'd say it will sometimes work.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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True - screaming your message, ignoring counter arguments, throwing logic in the sinkhole will ensure that you never lose. But you would have failed yourself. Winning in the manner you have described would be a pyrrhic victory - you might be able to win a few shouting matches, but you'd be encouraging childish behaviour and rank stupidity within the gamer community. And that's not a price I'm willing to pay.

Also, we don't NEED to defeat these people. They've lost. FoxNews and the Sun and the Daily Mirror can spout all the trashy, misinformed, ultra-right-wing nonsense they want, and it won't affect anything. In the 50's, they tried to ban Rock'n'Roll. Didn't work. In the 70's they tried to ban violent films. Didn't work. In the 80's, it was heavy metal that was apparently "leading America right to Satan's doorstep". Didn't work. And in the 90's, it was violent television and "satanic cults" like "Dungeons & Dragons" that they tried to ban. Again.... didn't work.

Video games are here to stay. Indefinitely. Unless Kim Jong Ill's son becomes president of America, you don't have to be worried about games being banned.

And as the FoxNews watching, miserable super-conservatives and nanny-state super-liberals (video game hate comes from both sides) die off (and they will), video games will become accepted. Hell, we are approaching the time where we will have people in their mid-30s who have played video games their ENTIRE LIFE.

There's no need to resort to being childish - because the stakes aren't high enough. FoxNews, for all its nonsensical drivel and alarmist propaganda, is helpless to stop video games. Want to know how I know this? Fox licenses out its IPs to developers to make video games. They're not going to ban it, as long as they can make a profit off of it.
 

ManupBatman

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Oh gawd, there is consensus between Jim and the front page on the Escapist! This has to be a sign of the end of days or something. It has been an very hot summer...... oh no, winter is coming!
 

MasterSplinter

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Today I was ready to pause the video so I could read the name of the episode. Today he didn't name the episode.

You win this one Mr.Sterling.
 

punipunipyo

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well... I don' think either way is "right"... I think we need to do a "good cop, and bad cop" thing to them "anti-gamers"... I think we should slap them in the face with a baseball bat, like hacking their websites, spam-bomb run, angry/hate mail flood, then... after they had their mental/emotional meltdown, we will then walk up to them with our best suit dressers, patting them on their back, and say "See... if only you had listened to us when we weren't hostel..."
 

bliebblob

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Sep 9, 2009
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Isn't that always the problem with being the bigger man? Yes AT FIRST it seems like you are just unable to defend yourself and stooping to childish levels is very tempting. Especially if their arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese.
But if you just keep it up and put out decent results people will eventually realize the childish naysayers are little more than an angry hobo shouting at a building.
 

Shameless

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Jim, being intelligent only works if you are with intellect people with an intelligent argument, Fox news are NEVER intelligent.
 

Deminobody

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It's sort of just mob justice. It bypasses all considerations for what is the "just" and "fair" way to approach a problem so as to ensure results. It's effective, but not preferred. It lacks definite moral high ground and the guarantee that the punishment scales with the crime.

With Jim's example of the Mass Effect debate on Fox, it would seem like Fox gets away almost undamaged compared to their appointed "expert". They basically used her to advance a point of view the show was taking before the debate even started. While she is guilty of being a willing participant of this scheme, she definitely takes the brunt of the mob backlash. Hopefully, the outcome is that such events occur less often as other potential speakers see the impact of playing "expert" for organizations looking for a mouth to voice its opinions.
 

teebeeohh

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let's just all fling poop around and look who comes out on top and unspoiled.
I don't need the people who take fox news seriously to like gaming because they are fucking morons anyway.
 

Callate

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NNnnnn.... Yeah, but... B-

All right, seriously... At my worst, I think maybe there should be room for both the high road and the low road, yeah? It's not like Noam Chomsky ceases to exist for the presence of Michael Moore, or George Will vanishes in a puff of smoke because of Andrew Breitbart, or... Whatever batshit insane person in a suit who supports neglecting childhood immunizations disappears because of Jenny McCarthy... (Sorry, came up empty there...)

And I think that you could as easily say the real point is "Don't go on 'news shows', especially Fox News, to support the argument they're planning to Straw Man." If we really want to hurt Fox News' credibility, we should just start asking people of good conscience to refuse to go on their shows at all because they make such a mockery of the word "news" that you can barely accept the word "fox" at face value. Oh, they'd rail about how the liberal establishment refused to face them for a while, but I think eventually the lack of credibility might start to be apparent when they started saying, "And now, for the pro-videogame side, here's Ted, formerly of camera 'B', who played Tetris once."

I don't have an easy answer, but in all arenas and all topics of conversation, we really have something to lose if being right and factually correct stops being as important as being flashy and loud. The lesson goes all the way back to the schoolyard, guys- just like there's always someone bigger and meaner waiting to push you down, there's also always someone louder and flashier. Probably arguing for the virtues of genocide.
 

grimer30

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What about people who only play CoD and repeatedly say that all other games are rubbish because, this is a quote: 'CoD is the best game ever and that games just for [censor] anyhow' (about Team Fortress 2).
 

lord.jeff

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This seems like it could be a more numbers wins match, in the debate 4 vs. 1 on a show that the audience already agreed with the 4, even if he did get loud the others could still get louder, and as for the amazon thing that's on vs. thousands. Not saying you don't have valid points being louder then the other guys in the argument is a great way to win but it fails the moment that guy guys of and shows everyone else how big of a douche we are and suddenly they are louder. Pretty much we need both loud active protesters to rush in and win battles, and more thoughtful people to win in the long term.
 

ACman

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Hmm.
....
.....
Sigh.

This is a week where pro-gamers need to shut up and let the NRA look insane.

Yes, ultimately it boils down to a madman's access to assault rifles.

But, uncomfortably he is connected with gaming.

He used gaming to train.

This is were gaming must accept some responsibility.

This is not an issue where we can be childish.

No.

No!!

We must have some sober introspection if we are to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry Jim but being the retarded dickhead will not serve us this week. Maybe other weeks where fox news is connecting kindegarden violence with Mortal Kombat but we can only really point out the stupidity of the connection these people make between violence and games when the difference is not so marginal.

This week videogames (COD:MF2) have been connected to a violent shooting. While the videogame has not been shown to influence motive it has been stated to have been instumental.

Yes there is many magnitudes of difference between a person using a firearm and a person playing Call of Duty. Does this suggest that we should not think about our medium and what effect it has on our society?

No it does not.

By no means do I think anything should be censored but a careful consideration of what role videogame violence plays in our society is worthwhile and should not be discounted.

Videogamers playing childish retards cannot help.

What can help is an absolute inundation of organisations who portray gamers as isolated violent weirdos. Inundate them with what you do for a living. Inundate them with what you do for your family. Inundate them with how you had a good time this weekend. Inundate them with how normal a humanbeing you are.

Let them know.

We are normal. And we will be heard.
 

Drake666

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ManupBatman said:
Oh gawd, there is consensus between Jim and the front page on the Escapist! This has to be a sign of the end of days or something. It has been an very hot summer...... oh no, winter is coming!
Indeed, winter is coming... ;)
 

Airsoftslayer93

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I think your attitude needs to be situational, of course there are times when it pays to be mature and sensible, but if being childish is more effective then be childish
 

chstens

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vxicepickxv said:
chstens said:
Holy shit, he's right. At least in the US, people acting like children to defend their points over here gets laughed at in the media.
Did you actually see that debate? It wasn't so much a debate as it was a man who was right being shouted at for the whole thing.
Completely beside the point I was trying to make, but yes, I have seen the debate, the poor guy didn't stand a chance. At a second glance, I see that my post could use with some better punctuation. What I was trying to say that he's got a point, at least when it coems to Americans, but over here in Norway, while we do enjoy a good shouting on TV every now and then, the person who resorts to shouting and steamrolling on a TV debate gets laughed at in the papers the day after.
 

orangeapples

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I think this commercial sums it up.


Stupid people with an I don't care attitude look like winners. And sad to say, in America we love stupid people. And anyone appearing on Fox News with intent to defend video games is fighting a losing battle. Fox News doesn't care about a fair argument; their slogan should be, "We're right, because we said so."

I remember there was that Kevin guy from G4 on Fox News, and he was supposed to defend gaming on something and they barely let him speak at all. I believe the same thing happened to Geoff.

Fox News should really be taken off the air because all they do is spread lies and slander. The only reason why Fox News hasn't been taken off the air is because there are enough people who love watching the stupid.
 

Uber Waddles

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We can't really sink to the level of demoralizing their forms of entertainment - this is America. All the rednecks would have a fit if you said "The bible condones violence, it leads to blahblahblah".

And, uhh, haven't we already kinda sunk to the immature level?

With all of the hackings, pranks, meme's, etc. It seems like we have a dedicated group of members trolling. The only reason we got a resonse from her is because we took a hit to her wallet, so she caved. Money speaks
 

Wuvlycuddles

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Ah dude, I agree with Jim.... I feel dirty.

Now if only we can expand this philosophy, anyone else think a childish world war would be hilarious? Just imagine the childish pranks one could pull of with the united states military budget!
 

MikeZubz

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Being childish doesn't necessarily mean being stupid. Some of those reviews were kind of clever.

The problem with what Geoff Keighley did was he tried to be articulate on Fox, where you don't have time to be articulate and correct. On Fox you're subject to unfair editing, no time to respond to a point before the next one is thrown at you, and just general herp-derpiness. He should have stuck to short, pithy statements that can't be edited. He shouldn't have asked: "Have you played the game?," and then responded to her answer. He should have just stated: "You haven't played the game, so you don't know what your talking about." Asking gives her a chance to dance around it, or quickly move from it. Places like Fox or talk shows aren't the place to be mature and intelligent, but places like articles and books, where someone has the time to break down arguments without being interrupted by a talking head, are. If we don't have those intelligent arguments available, what do we show to people who do become interested in the rights of videogames but don't necessarily play them?
 

Calum_M

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Never thought about it that way, but your words do have the slight ring of truth to them.
 

Sylveria

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I love this guy... and he's right. Americans, no, people in general are stupid and will follow the loudest voice. WE MUST BE LOUDER.
 

SammiYin

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I agree completely Jim, people take this medium far too seriously for it to be actually taken seriously. It's like someone insulting my action man and I respond by saying "I shall not sink to your level good sir, for you are too stupid to comprehend my arguments"

We need to be more childish, because being a child is fun, and games are meant to be fun. Remember that everyone.
 

370999

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Korolev said:
I agree with you. It's a non issuse in western societies. Games are here to stay. Honestly did the Fox case have any real effect on the sales of Mass Effect, as it hardly seems like they were influencing the demographic most likely to buy it.

Honestly I think it was silly to even participate in tehse debate, they are full of sound and fury but they mean nothing, don't affect anything and are utterly redundant.
 

DustyDrB

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Let's be honest. If you're the person representing the "other" side on Fox News, you automatically lose. People don't watch Fox News to be informed or to be enlightened. They don't want an honest debate. They just want their own view reinforced [footnote]And to be fair, the same goes for most every other major news network. MSNBC and Bill Maher does it for the liberal view while CNN...well, CNN has had a few people who attempt neutrality, but they haven't lasted long. CNN kind of caters to both sides, oddly enough. Even NPR isn't immune to this.[/footnote]. If you're the "other" side's representative, then you're just the avatar for their ire. You're fodder, and nothing more.

Honest discussions just rarely ever happen on any news network in the US. Ironically, the only place such discussions seem to take place are on parody news shows with guys like John Stewart (not that he's a bastion of truth. But the discussions are more balanced).

Anyway, I think Jim's point is right. There is no platform for reason in the media.
 

darthotaku

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is it just me or has Jim started making better points? personally I'd love to see him go up against Fox news.
 

Sehnsucht Engel

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I liked this guy from the beginning, now I look forward to his videos here every week. This was one of my favourites
 

lovest harding

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I agree with the points to a limit, but if someone isn't that kind of person they shouldn't be expected to look like a child just because it could get more people to listen (or because you THINK it will get people to listen).
The only reason the Fox News people act like that is because they are that stupid and childish.

I won't pretend to be someone I'm not for a bigger audience, but I don't despise anyone who wants to do that kind of thing.
To each his own, as they say.

EDIT: I'm not against someone going on Fox News and trying to look just as stupid but louder, but you have to know where you are and who you're against.
When talking with real people (as in not online or on TV) if you look like a moron trying to shout from the roof tops that games are great and not harmful in some random form of chat speak, you're not going to win anyone over.
In a real debate, you want someone who can actually debate. On Fox News you want someone who can yell louder and still be coherent to droves of Fox News fans and conservative Christians.
 

Newblisk

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I was with you all up into until you said there's no harm in fighting a childish fight. we don't need to lower our standards just to win a silly argument against a troll station like fox news, who is notorious for giving 100% Bias news for the sake of entertain. the fact is the argument has no merit. "there's sex in a video game" so? there's sex in movies, tv shows,online anything, hell even books and unless their selling it to people under 18 without a parent there's no news.

Honestly i think violence in games is 100% necessary in the world we live in. it acts as a catharsis and keeps otherwise violence people in check because they kill people in a consequence free environment instead of getting screwed in prison. the few that still act out is because they either don't play games, or they were going to do it regardless of games. i think the lives saved from giving people this virtual kill field far out weights that of taking it away.
 

Nuds1000

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Robert Drapp said:
I have a weird thought: Why don't we let the aloof "Mature" gamers continue to try and educate the masses and in essence direct the army of childish? Aiming them where they are most effective when logic and reason fail. That to me would shatter any arguement from any bible thumping, anti-game idoit. You're video Jim, whether you realize it or not, just demonstrated that it works. Oh, you don't wanna listen to my valid arguements and simply resort to shouting? Fine. My Army of "childish" gamers will sink any product/book/movie/show to such a level that you'll need a new word to decribe how low you've sunk.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head there. I mean as long as the childish attacks are legal (not hacking) then what will they do? We have valid points to make about games but it critics don't listen and engage in a civil debate then sure lets sink their products just like they tried to do. The Sad part about all of this is that Fox news doesn't actually care about what they are slandering they and their experts are just doing it so they can scare people into watching their programming and buy their books. For anyone who hasn't seen it look up Penn & Teller Bullshit: war on video games its really good at explaining at what is going on here is a link:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a6a_1249075899
 

The Great JT

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Fox News doing an unbiased show? But they seemed so trustworthy! Next you'll tell me video games are fun!

Okay, I'll knock that off, it's universal knowledge that Fox News are a bunch of imbeciles who couldn't run a fair and balanced story if their lives depended on it, much less one that doesn't demonize video games and the much more mature than them six year olds who play them.

Thank god for Jim Sterling.
 

lovest harding

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Newblisk said:
I was with you all up into until you said there's no harm in fighting a childish fight. we don't need to lower our standards just to win a silly argument against a troll station like fox news, who is notorious for giving 100% Bias news for the sake of entertain. the fact is the argument has no merit. "there's sex in a video game" so? there's sex in movies, tv shows,online anything, hell even books and unless their selling it to people under 18 without a parent there's no news.
Just to mention, unless there's explicit sex, I'm pretty sure children can buy books with sex.
At 12 I read a book about a girl who claimed all manner of sexual abuse from her parents including sexual abuse to an infant. I found that book in my middle school library.

EDIT: I think I may have read your post wrong. xD
Oh well. I'll keep this here. Just know that I recognize that I made an oopsy.
 

loc978

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Fight sensationalism with sensationalism? No thanks. The fact of the matter is, it works so slowly, the eventual results never reach the public that the original argument is seen by. We who actually follow the subject may be vindicated... but the masses for whom the subject is just a footnote will have their minds made up by the initial argument. Quick question: did Fox News ever air that author's admission? Did they ever revisit their "se"xbox story? I doubt it.
I say argue with reason... but be more forceful. Don't call a **** a ****, but do call a lie a lie and rudeness rudeness when they happen. Be insulted, be contemptuous, and let it show a little. Increase volume and force... but without anger.
 

Bugerion

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Revolution the only solution,the old response of an entire nation
revolution the only solution,we have taken all your shit now its time for restetution

I agree Fight fire with fire
 

Clonekiller

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Major disagreement here Jim.

Sure, fighting dirty will probably win arguments in the media and with pundits. However, is that what is important? I know from personal experience that the "mature head-burry" approach has won many people over for the games, my mother being one of them. It seems to me that a childish knee-jerk approach might "win" the argument on the TV, but all you'll really end up doing is alienating the losing group, and reinforcing a bad image in the mind of the general public. Now obviously rolling over and playing dead, like EA, doesn't do any good either. But I certainly don't think that we should hack servers, review bomb books, and spam e-mail accounts to make our points. Honestly, who cares what a pundit says? What matters is how the general public views you, and if all they perceive is pointless entertainment, like a pin-ball machine, have we really won anything? Being childish might win an argument or two today, but it's the difference between spending ten years or a hundred seeking acceptance.

Bugerion said:
Revolution the only solution,the old response of an entire nation
revolution the only solution,we have taken all your shit now its time for restetution

I agree Fight fire with fire
Cause the French revolution worked out so well.
 

JPArbiter

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fascinating topic and a very effective argument. I have thought that a hybrid of these two strategies should be embraced, creating a fandom wide "good cop/bad cop" game of shouting down the anti gaming crowed, and then enticing them with our Wiiware.
 

HyenaThePirate

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So let me get this straight...

The lesson learned here is that if you can't win like an MAN in the real world, then get 100s of your friends to act like children and do immature shit to FORCE people to maybe give in?

Worse, I'm not entirely certain a bunch of punkass gamers posting stupid negative reviews on Amazon for someone's book, negatively affecting their business and livelihood simply for having a difference of opinion is the way we want to go as a society. When did we stop allowing people to think differently from us? It's one thing to defend gaming but we have to be realistic too. I wouldn't really want my 10 year old playing God of War, and people SHOULD be made aware that mature games like this exist. The "mature" gaming issue itself will eventually go away on its own in about another 10 years because OUR generation grew up with games so we understand them on a wider scale. The people like Jack Thompson are from the past generation and they don't understand video games as anything more than TOYS because that's what they were to that generation.

I'm sorry but I'm NEVER going to advocate people rushing out to act like ass-heroes just to force someone else to change their minds. Why? Because it's all great when you're on the side of the ass-heroes, but it sucks bantha poodoo to be on the receiving end. What if they just deploy THEIR ass-anti-heroes to start doing the same thing to your side? I don't really relish the idea of an organized group of disgruntled censorship supporters deciding to go metacritic, etc and rate/reviewing any game with "mature" content as "terrible and garbage" 1 -star, etc... impacting the sales and thus robbing me of a possible sequel. People didn't buy Bully because people made disparaging comments about it when it was a GREAT game. As a result, I don't hold high hopes for Bully 2.

There comes a time when we all have to grow up and act like Men. Or at least Big boy Ponies.
 

Semi-Human

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I have to agree. Of course acting immature you have to stop making sense, stop using your brain or stop being right. The problem is that ppl that want to be mature don't get that you don't have to be either factually correct but boring or wrong but persuasive. You can fling shit all you want if you use it to get a factual point across. Groups like Fox news tell ppl there presenting facts so ppl buy in to it and they get away with it because half the time there not called on there bullshit or called on it on such a ineffectual way. Saying stuff like "thats not true" etc. simply isn't gonna cut it. Face it if some one calls your mother a whore would you then respond that your mother has no association with prostitution? of course not.

Bottom line is don't you want to be mature or do you want to get your point across? Because if its the second then you might not want to restrict your arsenal. Saving face but losing a debate is not a victory.
 

badmunky64

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As a gamer who lives with a family who continues to think video games are a "toy" I can assure you that trying to act like a sensible fact driven person never works.

I only get results when I bash film and music. I say "I'm sorry which industry is making more money than film and music combined?"

I may be wrong about the combined part, but fuck it they don't know the difference.
 

Pandaman1911

Fuzzy Cuddle Beast
Jan 3, 2011
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I agree with you, and think somebody SHOULD stoop to their level. We just need somebody who can do it well.

Also your little dance at the end made me laugh a lot harder than it probably should have.
 

iron skirt

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I don't care if we're considerd imature ore mature ore whatever... I like games, some people will be mature and some imature no mather the arguments, so in the end it's all about me playng my games and ignoreing people who have something against it... unless of cours they make me mad in witc chase, imaturity is bliss! ps. can I be a Jimquisitor?
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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What we do in Britain is just laugh at anyone who acts overly serious for more than five minutes, It makes us uncomfortable.

Fishmoo.
 

ProjectTrinity

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==Alright Everyone Stop!!!==

Plot holes in logic all around. Trying to rationalize anything related to Fox News is never bound to work out too well. The woman in question who had a change of heart could have very easily been swayed by another intelligent person, maybe even another "expert". The trolling on her Amazon book doesn't *have* to lead to her changing her mind. Further more, gamers who are (or at least speak) intelligent do not have to be a result of insecurity. (I don't recall if Jim mentioned that it *had* to be insecurity) Some gamers just rather do things their own way.

Or in my case, I'm very sensitive when it comes to making sure I don't hurt anyone's feelings.
 

Semi-Human

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Clonekiller said:
Cause the French revolution worked out so well.
Yes it did.

HyenaThePirate said:
So let ... boy Ponies.
win like a man? wtf does that even mean? Against large organisations with enormous budgets at there there disposal? But not lets not use the power of numbers because that would offend some BS macho sensitivity about some idiot imposed on you.

Yes ppl have a right to disagree, that doesn't mean they have the right to purposefully lie about something for there own gain. Yes every one has the right to there own opinion just like we have the right to let some one know when that opinion is BS or retarded.

Yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end, thats exactly the point. Which is why ppl like jack Thompson should have thought of that before they started it.

Ppl use things like "act like a man" or "act maturely" as nothing more than baseless accusations when they got nothing good to say, when usually thats e. How is it acting like a man to let some one get away with lies because some idiot questions you masculinity? How are you acting mature when you let some one slander you and damage what you care about just because your more worried about saving face then the truth.
 

Lovesfool

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I may disagree, I may think Keighley did a fine job on that incident, but I think this was the best Jimquisition to date!

It had style!
It had personality!
It had humor!
It has sarcasm!
It has soul!
It had funk!
It actually made some sense!

Loved it. Keep that identity and take it all the way! Nice!
 

Thyunda

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ACman said:
Hmm.
....
.....
Sigh.

This is a week where pro-gamers need to shut up and let the NRA look insane.

Yes, ultimately it boils down to a madman's access to assault rifles.

But, uncomfortably he is connected with gaming.

He used gaming to train.

This is were gaming must accept some responsibility.

This is not an issue where we can be childish.

No.

No!!

We must have some sober introspection if we are to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry Jim but being the retarded dickhead will not serve us this week. Maybe other weeks where fox news is connecting kindegarden violence with Mortal Kombat but we can only really point out the stupidity of the connection these people make between violence and games when the difference is not so marginal.

This week videogames (COD:MF2) have been connected to a violent shooting. While the videogame has not been shown to influence motive it has been stated to have been instumental.

Yes there is many magnitudes of difference between a person using a firearm and a person playing Call of Duty. Does this suggest that we should not think about our medium and what effect it has on our society?

No it does not.

By no means do I think anything should be censored but a careful consideration of what role videogame violence plays in our society is worthwhile and should not be discounted.

Videogamers playing childish retards cannot help.

What can help is an absolute inundation of organisations who portray gamers as isolated violent weirdos. Inundate them with what you do for a living. Inundate them with what you do for your family. Inundate them with how you had a good time this weekend. Inundate them with how normal a humanbeing you are.

Let them know.

We are normal. And we will be heard.
Now you're just talking crap. This is exactly the time we need to be vocal. If we sit and be the bigger man, they'll take our silence for defeat. They will leap on us and we won't try to stop them. Being the bigger man is ridiculous. We're fighting an enemy louder, more vocal, and more accessible than we are. When they invite us to a ridicule match, we have to play their game. Don't be afraid to step on a few toes. Show them that not only are we normal, decent people, we also will NOT be stepped on. Being vocal and mocking does not necessarily mean devolving into childish argument.
It is possible to deliver a valid argument in a mocking fashion. I could do it. I've done it plenty of times. I always get results. Quoting facts rarely works, so you only do it when called upon. If you're told videogames make children into murderers, don't cite the number of whatevers involved in whatever, you tell them to prove it. They pull their numbers, you throw their numbers in their face. Those children also went to school. They watched TV. Listened to music. They had two parents. They had one parent. There was an old man on the same estate. Force them to hear that correlation is NOT causation, and with something so widespread as videogames, of course there'll be some kind of connection.
 

Smurf McSmurfington

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As much as I hate to admit it, Jim DOES make a fair point here...
And the fact that hes right about the only way to "combat" those idiots is to sink to their level, in order to "convince" the incredibly thick masses truly saddens me... though in all fairness, the sheer stupidity of the average person has always saddened me.
 

NezumiiroKitsune

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I don't see how he could have implemented the same mindset, that the Amazon-bombing's followed, in a live television debate defending games or "shouting down" the anti-games lobbyists. I think the two approaches did what they did well and complimented one another.

What would you have had him say to them, when they were espousing fallacy to whip up an audience? All he had was the high ground, supported by fact and reason. If he'd tried to be childish to the childish, it would just invigorate their fervour, and they have much more antagonising bullshit to throw around than we do. He could have been ignorant and flippant, but that would have just pushed the audience towards the more furious and "morally" slanted arguments of the anti-games crowd. Face it, he couldn't have won, and if he had acted childish, he was out-numbered and out-gunned on that front.

It helped our cause that, to who it mattered, he responded reasonably and logically, and then the Amazon-bombings hurt them in the way we can.

So I call fanciful bullshit. Additionally, what was the "supposing the mature only act mature as a facade" in aid of? Some people are just inherently reasonable and mature, and are sick of the assholes of society taking precedent when they speak. You're pulling the similar tact to "Right-Wing Media" in dismissing and discrediting the mature response by being obtuse and creating faux-facts.

If you can however see a way he, and future games spokespeople, can be as obstinate and puerile as the anti-games folk were (and are), that still benefits and represents the games and gaming community, then please, get on that. They win the argument because their argument is scarier, and more compounded with loud-angry "moral-objections". If you just yell, but have no crowd-pleasing substance, you just have them win again.

For now, reasonability, and then immature attacks on the morons, is the best approach.
 

BloodSquirrel

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Jack Thompson's approach worked *so* well that he wound up being disbarred and disowned by people on his own side.

Meanwhile, gamers being childish about the Mass Effect "controversy" is the only reason anybody ever hears about it. Everyone else saw it, shrugged, and moved on. It had zero cultural impact except for gamers, whose being butthurt about it has accomplished absolutely nothing.

In fact, what it really shows is how many people really don?t have a choice about the matter- they lack the maturity to be anything but childish in the first place.
 

Keanotix

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I wouldn't say not going on the news interview would have been any better, if he hadn't gone on they would have made it much worse by saying 'no comment, shows how wrong they are', but because he went on and appeared to have gotten 2 words in to their 10, they came across as bullies and childish by not giving him his two cents.

Acting childish may appear effective and efficient at getting points across, but its a quickie dirty solution. There would have been many more mature solutions, instead of blasting this woman's book, a few articles in our own journalistic empire and possibly some discussion on forums and boards (like we are doing now) about how little research and logic went into this interview. Possibly an interview with this woman would have given us the very information we got from the flaming. Yes it would have taken longer, but we would no longer be a mob fighting a mob.

Is anything from Extra Credits getting through? The very reason Fox gets to do this is because Gaming and it's audience are seen as immature and childish. All that was done here was proving
Fox and Co. right by spamming this ill-informed woman. Please note that the whole Anonymous Fiasco is basically the same thing on a larger scale, 'Oh, big company make us look stupid, lets respond by attacking them, that show them we smart! Whaddya mean other gamers get hurt doin this? They just noobs that just talky talky.....' and so on.

Oh and EA have NO foothold in terms of maturity. Watch the Extra Credits video "An Open Letter To EA". The rest of my points could be rounded up there.
 

Knusper

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Even if I don't entirely agree with it, I think this has been the best Jimquisition yet by mixing a good amount of humour and valid arguments equally.
 

Not G. Ivingname

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If you ever been on an American debate team, you will know that the favored tactic is to spout nonsense arguments that forces your opponent to spend most of their time trying to figure out what you just argued, losing their time to make their own point.

If one can, attacking somebody's means to put money in their wallets will always get more results.
 

PrinceofPersia

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Jim if those experts on Fox are adults, I suddenly understand why Peter Pan never wanted to grow up.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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This is amazing. Indeed Jim is absolutely right. Quite often, even I fall into the rabbit hole of 'maturity', expecting some wonderland where everyone else also acts mature and rationally. Bullshit. You only get your point across with 1) Money 2) Brute force.

Interestingly, Jim is right and Yahtzee is wrong.
 

Meggiepants

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Jan 19, 2010
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You know what, I pretty much agree with quite a lot of what Jim says here. Particularly the part about it being okay to play games because they are fun, and not needing to find some more "justifiable" reason to play games.

Fuck the people who judge you for playing games because they are "worthless wastes of time." If you are going to make a judgement call about something without understanding or even trying to understand it, your thoughts really aren't worth my time.
 

otakon17

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ManupBatman said:
Oh gawd, there is consensus between Jim and the front page on the Escapist! This has to be a sign of the end of days or something. It has been an very hot summer...... oh no, winter is coming!
This made my day. Nice "Game of Thrones" reference too.
 

Gralian

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Sep 24, 2008
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Think about it - the reason Jim gets so much traffic and debate stirred up is because of how loud and childish he is. That's not a criticism. On day 1 of the Jimquisition here on the escapist, Jim was met with a wall of abuse, but after a few weeks people are singing his praises. All because he was loud, he was obnoxious, and he didn't make a single compromise. "This is me", he said, "And you're damn well going to like it or lump it. Jog on."

But the fact is, people took Jim's opinions to heart, whether they hated the way they were presented or not. People may disagree with him, but it's got people talking about him and his opinions. His loud, childish persona carried his message and still is doing so successfully. I think this is proof that what he's saying in this episode had some genuine merit. Sometimes, you've just got to be "that guy" with the megaphone and swallow your moral pride about 'rising above it' - shout back at those who shout at you.
 

Alcamonic

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I'd rather see the world around me collaps in burning ashes than sink down to their level.
No, I am not on an absurdly high horse (maybe a pony), but I will never become what I hate the most.

Edit:
Gralian said:
But the fact is, people took Jim's opinions to heart, whether they hated the way they were presented or not. People may disagree with him, but it's got people talking about him and his opinions. His loud, childish persona carried his message and still is doing so successfully. I think this is proof that what he's saying in this episode had some genuine merit. Sometimes, you've just got to be "that guy" with the megaphone and swallow your moral pride about 'rising above it' - shout back at those who shout at you.
Goddamnit, there is maybe some truth in it. But I doubt acting arrogant like the Fox News cast will help.
 

Aloran

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Pretty sure I can't call myself mature anymore after laughing at his raspberry-ing at the end...

His little dance just made me laugh.

OT some very good points raised however I think that there are some mature audiences out there who do not listen to the idiots who rally against gaming, although they are few and far between.
 

Lt. Vinciti

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Wait....

Did Jim Sterling just say inorder to beat Faux News + Friends we have to be like them?


Well...if on a daily basis they can scare stupid people into hating ______ then I guess he has a point...

Ive watched the Mass Effect Sexy Faux Fun Time...Geoff Keighley hardly did much of anything beyond listen to some woman ramble on about how I see women as a sex object...and the entire job of Commander Shepard was to fuck his way across space w/ added gunplay
 

hermes

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No, Jim. You are wrong. Your point is stupid and you are stupid for making it.

Mmmhh... I guess acting childish and talking out of my butt does makes me right. Good advice.
 

UbarElite

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Nice episode. It is interesting to see this come out into the open. Reasoned debate does have it's place, and when engaged with other civil minded people, it works well. I am admittedly tired of seeing childish people bash video games, and I suppose seeing more of it going in the opposite direction would be nice every once in a while.
 

JochemDude

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No, Jim you need to take such things out at the source. Carpet bomb Fox News's broadcasting station, problem solved.
What I'm saying is that too destroy someones argument, you have to destroy their argument. Now how do we do that, why is this person taken seriously. Destroy what makes them capable of having the argument. People rarely suddenly have a change of heart in a argument, so why play that way.
 

MB202

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My God, that is so TRUE! It doesn't matter what facts you have, if the person you're fighting it stubbornly stupid! Trust me, I've seen this happen, both on the Internet AND in real life!
 

geier

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Hell yeah, best episode ever !
I had to laugh out loud at the end.
 
Aug 17, 2010
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I say we do BOTH.

First we establish a council, who serves as figureheads for the entire community at large, and then we enlist the help of the most TROLLIEST TROLLS IN ALL OF TROLLHAVEN, BLESSED BE THE TROLL KING, and use them as a sort of "taskforce" whenever someone talks shit.

Sort of like lulzsec, but no hacking, just mean spirited comments.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Interesting idea.

I kind of like it. I mean if these people really wanted to understand how adult games can be they'd do some research instead of spouting out stereotypes. The average age of gamer is somewhere in the 30s and this isn't exactly recent news.

The people who say that there's rape in GTA and that it gives you points for killing hookers, or that Bullet Storm can lead to rape they probably aren't interested in the truth.

Oh and if you want another reason not to take those groups seriously.

At the end of the day they can't do shit (at least in the US). They can't ban it or restrict sales, because of the Supreme Court ruling. All they can do is ***** about it.

BUT!

There is one thing to keep in mind.

Sending out threats of violence Will Not Work! It didn't work with Michael Atkinson or with anyone else. Plus it's illegal.
 

Redd the Sock

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Jim, part of the problem is that's exactly what Fox news would like: some big exagerated back and forth contriversy to help fuel ratings and fill time on the 24 hour news clock. Not to mention the more childish we act, the more it justifies to position that we're just overaged kids afraid our naughty games will be taken away. Not that there isn't a place for calling BS out, but the debate was lost when he showed up, and acting like a child wouldn't have help anything. Very few will be convinced by anything in a debate as they have their minds made up coming in and are just looking to have their opinion validated.

Now the carpet bombing, while certainly a childish tactic had a very mature mindset behind (at least some of) it. You slandered us, we slander you. Not in dabate where it means nothing, we'll hit you where it actually hurts, book sales. While childish on the front, it got the point across better than anything luzsec has come up with. It also could have backfired. This lady was smart enough to make a retraction (even if it may by disengenious) but someone like Pailin would have gotten weeks of press time milking being the victem of some liberal conspiracy even as the daily show points out the double standard.

Sadly, I don't know a good tactic to combat stupidity on Fox's level, but I do know we can't play the game by their rules.
 

Cousin_IT

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I dunno who won: The gamers who got a pseudo-psychologist to apologize for being mislead by TV producers; or Fox News since Mass Effect 2 had fully clothed (& very awkward) cuddling scenes instead of side boobs.
 

Imp_Emissary

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AgentBJ09 said:
Makes sense to me. Save the debates for the times when someone's face isn't being broadcast on FOX, MSNBC, or any other networks. They're mostly there for ratings when it comes to opinion pieces, like the SEXBOX bit. As the saying goes, "If it burns, it earns."
he did manage to expose his opponent early by asking if she had actually played Mass Effect. Granted, most viewers missed it since it was all about the sex, but he did get something by being civil at first.
True. All that said though he could have still exposed her by being childish.
He could have said something like; "Oh, the game is just about sex?! Did you play this game from start to finish, or do you only know the game has sex scene in it?! If so you're pretty much reviewing a book after reading one page in the middle!"
 

Beardly

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I think that anyone who goes on Fox News as a counterpoint to them should be accompanied by a large black man whose only job is to tell the pundits to stop interrupting his client and look menacing.
 

TwistedEllipses

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I could explain why I disagree, but according to you all I need to do is to shout abuse at you until you concede...
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Personally, and this works a million times better in real life, I prefer to simply ramp up the smug.

I am, by my very nature, an insufferable git. I can make anybody foam at the mouth whilst not appearing childish or stupid to anyone else watching. It's easy, you just stick to very well vocalised arguments and test your argumental opponents switches. You'll eventually find something that smacks them the wrong way. Making them retaliate in a fit of anger. But you wont look like an idiot yourself. Being forceful and hammering your point across in a very precise and quick witted manner isn't childish and is the only way you can win an argument were people aren't observing the intricacies of formal debate.

Christopher Hitchens is a bona-fide master of this art.
 

II2

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I've warmed up to the Jimquisition since it started. I find the "schtick" abrasive to the point where I, sometimes, want to smack sterling in his flapping gob while simultaneously wanting to give him kudos for making a solid point, but I ultimately think the merits 'outweigh' the crass delivery...

Talk about your "backhanded compliments"... *drumroll*

... I'll stop...

______________

On this episode's topic, I kinda see an apt parallel between this and middle/highschool bullying. Often, the victim, targeted for being perhaps more shy and bright, will try and 'aloof' their way to victory and some can, with a deliberately thick skin, but outside of a personal victory of character, it doesn't really teach the bullies a lesson or stop them from proceeding to harass the next poor sod.

The people Jim points out, although not in the halls of highschool hell, are still the conversational equivalent of bullies and generally the best (if technically inappropriate) way to deal with a bully is to give them a memorable smack down they'll make them think twice before talking shit and picking on people. You can't reason with these people and they only ever stop to consider their actions after they're personally attacked themselves.

I think the appropriate roles have already been drawn. I think the developers and industry professionals SHOULD remain intelligent and calm and represent the persevering-logically-minded front, because that reflects what the industry's image wants to be... The gaming COMMUNITY, on the other hand already has both a poor image (that nobody's ready to reconsider) and NUMBERS. These internet savvy grassroots defenders are ideally suited to ganging up on media bullies and administering a heavy handed cyber smack down to unfounded, unthinking detractors.

I don't like that people act like this to each other, but we all have to plan and play around the cards we're given and sometimes the best cure for a bully isn't a rational discussion, but a punch in the nose.
 

RobfromtheGulag

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There needs to be a searchlight that goes up or something so we know when to act.

OT: Fox is a joke, people that take stock in Fox's spin are not doing balanced research. I have older friends that watch Fox, and the majority of them are aware of the spin. Especially when I point it out for them.
 

mjc0961

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Nov 30, 2009
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I love that ending, if only because I wish I could say similar things to people who feel the need to come in here and whine every week when they should just not watch in the first place.

vxicepickxv said:
chstens said:
Holy shit, he's right. At least in the US, people acting like children to defend their points over here gets laughed at in the media.
Did you actually see that debate? It wasn't so much a debate as it was a man who was right being shouted at for the whole thing.
Yeah, that was pretty much it. The only remotely good thing he got out of it was getting Cooper Lawrence to admit she'd never played the game, but it only confirmed what most of us already suspected and to the people who watch Fox News and agree, they don't care if she played or not anyway.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jim has once again proven how much of a fucking idiot he is. You know what would work a hell of a lot better then acting like a spoiled five year old child like Jim suggests? Ignoring the fuckers. The only reason that the anti gaming lobbies get so much press is because of gamers complaining about them and even then they dont do anything.

Lets look at the mass effect incident. Despite everything that happened around it and the fox news segment there was absolutely no effect on the games sales at all. All of those user reviews on her book would also not do anything at all to convince anybody not to buy the book if they took two seconds to read them. Tell me would you not buy a game because a reviewer said the company likes to suck donkey balls. No you would ignore that persons opinion because they are an idiot and have nothing valid to say.


I really dont see how people give a shit what somebody on fox news thinks of them. What happens on those stations have absolutely no effect at all on gaming as a whole. MW2 got a massive amount of air time because of the airport level and then went on to be the best selling game of all time. Duke Nukem got a ton of bad press and even then still went on to sell fairly decently. The game didnt fail because of the bad press it failed because so many gamers disliked it.


One last thing I should mention was the supreme court case. If Jim thinks that the approach the big game companies are taking against anti-gaming lobbies is not working then why did the supreme court side in our favour. The reason is because the supreme court did not listen to the loudest voice, they instead listen to the logical one. Which once again proves that being the loudest douchbag you can is not effective.


TLDR: People need to learn that the anti-gaming crowd is not actually having any effect on the industry at all. The only reason they are getting so much attention is because we are giving it to them. All you have to do is simply ignore the fuckers and they will loose what little power the had.
 

Jennacide

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It's a grim statement that this is the most insightful video he's posted yet. But this is also old news to me, as I've been of the belief that stupidity wins over intellectualism when shows like Jersery Shore have higher ratings than Breaking Bad. It doesn't just work for games, it works for everything.
SgtFoley said:
Jim has once again proven how much of a fucking idiot he is. You know what would work a hell of a lot better then acting like a spoiled five year old child like Jim suggests? Ignoring the fuckers. The only reason that the anti gaming lobbies get so much press is because of gamers complaining about them and even then they dont do anything.

Lets look at the mass effect incident. Despite everything that happened around it and the fox news segment there was absolutely no effect on the games sales at all. All of those user reviews on her book would also not do anything at all to convince anybody not to buy the book if they took two seconds to read them. Tell me would you not buy a game because a reviewer said the company likes to suck donkey balls. No you would ignore that persons opinion because they are an idiot and have nothing valid to say.
Hi. Would you like your dunce cap now, or later? The anti-gaming lobby gets attention for the EXACT reasons he espoused. It gets attention from the right wing radicals and religious fanatics because it's aimed directly at them. And much like with the Fox News bit on Mass Effect, it looked like THEY WON to that audience, despite all of Keighley's defense. Perception has an amazing impact on swaying people. Even if they were outright shown they were wrong, as long as they hold their heads high, the viewer will percieve they still won the arguement.

As for using sales figures of the game, really? Are you actually going to not realize your own logical fallacy there? It was never intended to stop sales, it was intended to make games look bad. Which it succeeded at, at the time. The VERY SAME SHIT is going on right now with the Oslo massacre. Some psycho, who was already a psychopath I might at, tried pointing the blame on games and it worked. Because the people that want to hate on games take any ammo they get. Now, for the time being, games are being pulled from shelves in Europe, and other countries are starting to reevaluate their laws. Don't believe me? Look at the bottom of this page, as of this writing, this thread is the most commented on the site: Oslo Murders Lead to Calls For Game Bans in Australia [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/111895-Oslo-Murders-Lead-to-Calls-For-Game-Bans-in-Australia]

The idoits that are trying to rally against games are simply trying to styme their sales, they're trying to get them banned or impose defacto censorship. A trick that has worked in the past, look at the Hot Coffee scandal. Or the ESRB violence crackdown from a few years ago on Fallout 3 and Dark Sector. (Not even sure what set that one off, as they've peeled that back)

Before I go much further, lemme just bring up a simple point on the original basis of your argument: Ignore them. How has that worked in your life? Or in history? I don't know about your life, but I know ignoring things in history has not worked too well.
 

Arcane Azmadi

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Don't know about "childish" as such, but I HAVE repeatedly been frustrated at the way that, every time some new retarded controversy comes up over a harmless triviality in a game, the developers never have the balls to stand up and say "you're being fucking stupid, you don't have a leg to stand on, we don't care what morons like you think and if you don't like it you can shove it up your ass." And no I'm not paraphrasing there, I really think their official response should include the swearing.

Come to think of it, I've often wished they'd take the same approach to whiny, eternally-unsatisfied fans.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Also I hope this goes without saying but if they're willing to be civil and honest you should be as well.
 

xXAsherahXx

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When talking to Fox news specifically, I totally agree, they like shouting matches. Other places? I'm not entirely sure. America likes a good shouting match, but we also enjoy a decent debate with some cordiality.

Off topic, I do like that Jim addressed the escapist directly about their snooty-ness, because a lot of people here act like this is the forum for the Tony awards.

Sometimes we have to step down to a childish level, but only in a childish setting, it's all about adapting. If gamers went on the Daily Show, things would be much different. Civilized conversations only happen in civilized places, it's that simple.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Ryu890 said:
Hmm...if we need our own Jack Thompson.....
We do not need our own Jack Thompson.

Jack Thompson self destructed in a big spectacle and the Florida Legal System basically called him a no good liar when they stripped him of his law license.

He is now utterly irrelevant.
 

Hugga_Bear

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If you're dealing with Fox? Yeah, be as immature as you like, the average intelligence of their newscasters is so low you could spend the entire conversation literally talking with your arse on the screen and they probably wouldn't cotton on.

Otherwise? No. Some groups are smart enough to turn it around and they're loyal fans blind enough to follow suite. If you start to descend to their level then they may well call you out for being childish, immature, bullying and so on while they do it themselves, point out the hypocrisy and meet the age old "Who...me?!" face.

So what I'm saying is pick your angle with care, different fights require different tactics, some can be won with brute force, some require finesse and some need to be completely ignored and left to rot though they're very few despite this being the game industry's favourite approach.

Remember, not every group is as flat out idiotic as Fox News' little teams.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Arcane Azmadi said:
Don't know about "childish" as such, but I HAVE repeatedly been frustrated at the way that, every time some new retarded controversy comes up over a harmless triviality in a game, the developers never have the balls to stand up and say "you're being fucking stupid, you don't have a leg to stand on, we don't care what morons like you think and if you don't like it you can shove it up your ass." And no I'm not paraphrasing there, I really think their official response should include the swearing.

Come to think of it, I've often wished they'd take the same approach to whiny, eternally-unsatisfied fans.
Swearing at fans and saying that they don't care what they think can do nothing but backfire.

But I would love if Rockstar came out and said

"Listen here you two bit hacks, we make games for adults and sometimes these games will include violence, sex and/or swearing. If you don't like it you're welcome to not play them. But if you're going to stand here complaining about how our violent games are bringing some new low in entertainment while not saying anything about Tarantino or others; we invite you to go fuck yourself with a rusty pair of pliers. We'll even put an animation of that happening in the next Manhunt if you need assistance.

P.S. The next asshole who claims that there is rape in GTA will be hearing from our lawyers."
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jennacide said:
It's a grim statement that this is the most insightful video he's posted yet. But this is also old news to me, as I've been of the belief that stupidity wins over intellectualism when shows like Jersery Shore have higher ratings than Breaking Bad. It doesn't just work for games, it works for everything.
I watched Toddlers and Tiaras for the first time last night, not because I like kiddie beauty pageants but because watching the show had all the appeal of a gruesome train wreck. I couldn't look away. Same with some other trashy shows. So yeah even if you think they are all losers or whatever the shows still have some appeal.
 

Something Amyss

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I'm not sure the point we should draw from this is that childish works. Maybe "not being a doormat" would work, too.

It's possible to be assertive without being a prat.

The problem is, our "side" of the Sexbox "debate" was neither.
 

Simeon Ivanov

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Games have gotten too serious nowadays ...(Ironically, Serious Sam is really funny and immature) What ever happen to the silliness in games? Why does everything need to be dark and gritty and mature ...
 

daitsdudes

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What the hell? No, No I will not act like a child just to make a point, why would i undermine and industry I care a lot about just to win a debate against people whose opinions won't change due to their preconceived notions about it. This is the inherent problem with all debates each side is more concerned with winning than causing any real change *cough* debt ceiling *cough*
Instead of arguing back and forth the games industry should try to open a dialogue with their opponents with hopes of mutual acceptance as the final outcome.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I neither agree nor do I really disagree. I'll give you that Jim, lately your show has been pretty good and I do believe you speak quite some truth. But I don't see this Issue really going away in our generation, pretty much regardless of what we do. I figure it's kind of like bashing on Gays, it's just a silly older Generation that isn't accustomed to anything else, which makes it evil. Hell, it beats me why a Sex Scene in a Game would be any more obscene then in a Movie, but that's apparently how it is. I'm happy in my knowledge that the people saying such things are normally ignorant fools and the experts don't tend to be very appreciated in their ''expert'' field. I imagine it will disappear all on it's own by the time I have a teenage kid that plays Game, once my Generation is pretty much in control.

So, in other words, aslong as these people aren't litterally prohibiting me from playing the Games I want to play, I won't do much of anything, other then the occasional facepalm.

Besides, Gamers are far too busy bickering amoungst each other as to actually unite for a common cause.

Edits: On a related note, how does that saying go again? Never stoop down to an Idiots level, they'll beat you with their experience.
 

Frankfurter4444

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There is a strange logic behind acting like children to disprove the people who accuse video gamers of acting like children. Then again, it's hard to argue with results.

I personally agree with the part where he says I shouldn't care what other people think of gamers. So long as games I like keep getting made, Jack Thompson can call for a boycott of them all he wants, so long as I still get to buy and play it.
 

penguindude42

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Simeon Ivanov said:
Games have gotten too serious nowadays ...(Ironically, Serious Sam is really funny and immature) What ever happen to the silliness in games? Why does everything need to be dark and gritty and mature ...
A-bucking-men to that, brother/sister.

{EXTRA TEXT TO AVOID MOD WRATH}

~Tom<3
 

Torrasque

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<quote=Thomas Jefferson>Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.I love this quote. Its so applicable in so many ways ^_^
 

Saltyk

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Would it be so hard to be the adult, but demand that the children shut up and listen to you?
 

Seives-Sliver

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I believe we should be mature in the public eye, but the moment someone bashes us, we need to do all in our power to make sure they regret it. Perfect combo! Everyone loves us, and people will be scared of saying something completely false, untrue, and stupid
 

WindKnight

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Dok Zombie said:
The exact same thing happened on Alan Titchmarsh's daytime chat show. The game's industry bod (who's name I forget) was essentially shouted down and booed by an audience and panel of "experts" who had already made up their mind before the debate started. The guy remained calm and reserved throughout the whole thing, but failed to get his point across even remotely.

But then again, who give's two fuck's what what a TV gardener thinks about Grand Theft Warfare: Modern Killzone 3 anyway?
I'd have loved for him to have pointed out the 18 certificate on the 'aimed at kids' videogame at the very least.
 

Metalrocks

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good points and i enjoyed this episode actually.
how many times i had to stand for my self as a gamer, that the rest is wrong who think bad about them, like these so called experts. my mother believed every shit she heard on TV about games (not fox. we dont live the USA) until i proofed her wrong by showing her the games she heard about on TV and that i dint turn out to be like them as the these idiots experts claim.
in germany, they always say that violent games make children take a gun and shoot other people. living in switzerland at that time, many people still believed it but switzerland as such doesnt have this silly policy as germany, that violent games should be banned or not be allowed to be sold.

i still remember that one expert in a talk show on german TV, talked about battlefield how bad this game is for the community. and guess what, he showed scenes from "world of warcraft". genius. i was laughing all way through because he was just talking one crap after another.
 

Fearzone

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Hahahha... hell yahh some of us know you are right dude.

Thing is, whenever I discuss video games with those who don't partake, hardly any of them believe the hype from fox news or wherever. It's just gotten silly.

Entertainment is what people want from their news shows, not relevant factual information. Pop-psychologist screaming about misinterpreted research is entertainment. So is Amazon-bombing. Rock on.

I still think you should green-screen it and stand if front of the stills as you rant.
 

Ryu890

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Father Time said:
Ryu890 said:
Hmm...if we need our own Jack Thompson.....
We do not need our own Jack Thompson.

Jack Thompson self destructed in a big spectacle and the Florida Legal System basically called him a no good liar when they stripped him of his law license.

He is now utterly irrelevant.
Yeah, you got a point. Good riddance to him.
 

Still Life

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Top Hat said:
A very interesting & valid point, but it saddens me to think that immaturity is the only way to get results.
Not the only way and I don't think Jim is trying to push that. More that the school-yard soapbox is a means to balance the childishness of those who wage a culture war on a purely ideological foundation.

Maturity has its time and place, and so does immaturity. Let's face it, a lot of the big media outlets are nothing more than infotainment; one must adjust discourse accordingly in order to maximize impact.

Insightful point as always, Jim. *Farts* :)
 

Orekoya

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Wait, hasn't science already proven that watching fox news makes you stupid [http://www.businessinsider.com/extended-exposure-to-fox-news-may-be-detrimental-to-your-intelligence-2010-12]? How is that relevant information nowadays?

Oh wait, because people still watch it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I love it. I hated watching that segment and wondering why the hell Geoff wasn't calling these people out on their lies. Good on ya Jim!
 

Falseprophet

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In every revolution, you need the thinkers to remind you what you're fighting for and the shitkickers to actually carry on the fight. In the war of cultural opinion, the shitkickers are the childish prats Jim advocates. Charles Darwin had the facts of evolution on his side, but was a non-confrontational type. It was Huxley who took Darwin's facts and rammed them down everyone's throats, loudly and obnoxiously.

So yeah, send out the barbarian hordes to hammer home the idiocy of FOX News, the sanctimonious moralists and the deluded watchdogs, but have the learned sages ready to back them up with facts and reasoned arguments.
 

Custard_Angel

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That bit about "games being accepted as an art form" I found particularly comforting.

I hate that whole games as art debate. "Who gives a fuck" is the only point of view that really encompasses my feelings because at the end of the day I'll play whatever games I feel like regardless of whatever the popular opinion is.

I can with no reservation declare that Dino D-Day is no work of art, but regardless it is several hundred times more entertaining to me than The Great Gatsby or any other classic literature you can name.

It's the exact view that makes me turn away from Extra Credits and embrace The Jimquisition. One side thinks games are a creative artistic medium for the expression of ideas and the other thinks games are fun things that people play.

So... my point is, I suppose, that games aren't necessarily art (and who really gives a shit) and combining dinousaurs and nazis is a sure fire way to make money off people who in some way bear the memories of a 6 year old boy.
 

CBanana

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I know of at least one victory that acting mature got gamers:

Supreme Court sees video games as art
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-27/tech/supreme.court.video.game.art_1_sale-of-violent-video-video-games-hansel-and-gretel?_s=PM:TECH

It's something that will of course have far more impact than any stupid Fox News debate.
 

Kenji_03

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That was the most amusing counter-intuitive point I think I've ever heard. "Sinking to their level will convince others, being "mature" will make you look like an ineffectual prick".

Thank "God" for Jim XD
 

Zetsubou^-^

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idk. immaturity gets results, but there's gotta be a way to stay on the same level as the opposition and win. in all honesty i think debate on this topic is stupid from the start. every form of media "CAN" and has inspired violence, but that doesn't mean it does to any significant degree, and restricting it will never stop it. the type of people that actually do cause violence after seeing/playing violent things will find the next thing to replace it. there is no censorship that will stop these people, because they are so easy to influence and often search it out/are drawn to it.

I'm not sure why the need to bash fox came up though. its a channel that bills itself as conservative, so of course its gonna have a majority of its speakers on the violence=violence side. its not like liberal stations are any better with other topics. i don't agree with either side on everything, but having everyone shout their own side while putting down the other is not constructive, and a waste of my time. yes each could stand to have a more even sided debate, but both of them are more concerned with their core audience. find the channel that doesn't make your ears bleed and watch it people.
 

Spyre2000

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Let's see Mature Debate vs Childish Antics....

How about I'm to busy to give a damn what some up tight jerk offs think about gaming, that's time I could be spent gaming. I'll sit up and take notice when something major happens. Like that Supreme Court case Video Games won making them an art form.

As for EA not going after Fox... Did you see how they marketed Dead Space 2!?! Or several of their other previous titles? They seem to be of the mind set that scandalous is good for business.

Now if you'll excuse me I've got some video games to play.
 

KarlMonster

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Father Time said:
Jack Thompson self destructed in a big spectacle and the Florida Legal System basically called him a no good liar when they stripped him of his law license.
Yep. He ignored the deadlines for his own disbarment hearings, if I remember correctly.
Now that's a stupid twat.

As for Jim. I have to disagree again.

All that childishness accomplished here, was a private vendetta against uh... whats-her-name. While she may have made a few statements retracting what she said afterwards, she most certainly did not do so on Fox News. Nor will any amount of vindictive childishness cause Fox News to issue an apology or a retraction for their opinions which were written in stone before airing. Thus your case for childishness is flimsy, and based on the limited results of harassing a single individual. That should not be held up as justifying poor behavior.

Fox News is beyond threatening or reasoning with at any level. During the fracas about getting a Universal Health Care law, they had an on-air interview with this guy who had assaulted a pro-health care protester. Naturally the pro-health care protester was the bad guy. Because after the second unprovoked punch to the face, the assailant's hand came away minus a finger. It had been bitten off. So according to Fox News logic; 2 counts of battery is not nearly as serious as being 'for' universal health care. Can you even arrest someone for biting a finger placed in their mouth?
 

beniki

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Nah we need both. A mature spokesman and an infantile and aggressive soapboxer. You know, both a Harvey Dent and a Batman.

Or dare we say... like an Extra Credits and a Zero Punctuation?
 

Faux Furry

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I almost agreed with your points,Jim,but that vest distracted me. A man of the cloth should always be wearing the proper cloth at the pulpit, therefore this is the highest form of heresy and your arguments are invalid.
Is that childish enough yet?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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KarlMonster said:
Can you even arrest someone for biting a finger placed in their mouth?
That's what happened in the last Stanley Cup, and they didn't even give him a penalty because they don't whether it was an accident.

Of course after that the Bruins started fighting him a hell of a lot more.
 

iblis666

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god jim is right!

we may still need the intellectual guy that can make valid points

but we also need the guy that can yell at everyone and call them fucktards for not seeing things his way while making shit up
 

Gunner 51

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I shall beg to differ with you Mr Stirling. Gamers are slowly becoming accepted because as a community, we have acted maturely (for the most part) over a long time. Most people who don't watch Fox News have noticed this and treat gamers with a little respect. (Much like those wonderful judges at the Supreme Court in the U.S.)

Those who are familiar with Godwin's Law will know that the first person to invoke fascism has normally lost the argument. Acting childish or resorting to shouting works in the same way - whoever does it lost the argument.

The person who truly wins the argument is always the guy who makes the most salient points and keeps his cool.

But why are gamers so interested in winning over Fox News? They're fools. Let's not get bogged down in what the likes of Fox News have to say, they simply aren't worth the hassle - they're trolls. By arguing with them, we feed them.

I say bollocks to Fox and let's get on with something a bit more worthwhile - like playing games. I cannot speak for the entire Escapist community, but I would rather lose a game honestly than win as a cheat. For that is the test of an honourable man.
 

Macrobstar

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hermes200 said:
No, Jim. You are wrong. Your point is stupid and you are stupid for making it.

Mmmhh... I guess acting childish and talking out of my butt does makes me right. Good advice.
Contradiction, hurts me brain! ARGH
If Jim is wrong how can acting childish make you right? If you acting childish makes you right that makes Jim right and wrong at the same time!
 

Arthur Cammarono

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I've tried to win an argument against an idiot before while still trying to be sensible, it doesn't work. Every time that you bring up a concept that they themselves are too stupid to understand, they simply laugh you off with the thought that you're just making things up.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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It's an interesting point. Unfortunately it's not games being violent or the people that shout about religion and 'morals', it's the system that supports it (Biased entertainment-news stations like Fox) and the people themselves that are entertained by that.

If people didn't find that entertaining Fox wouldn't broadcast it.

I think it ends up as being, in the current state, what Jim was saying is really the only way to respond and have any effect whatsoever. It's like a vicious cycle of retardedness T_T
 

dantoddd

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this is the only intelligent piece intelligent analysis he has done on this series.
 
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I think that the healthy idea is a balance of smart and nasty.

We SHOULD respond to criticisms maturely and intelligently, but if the other side is full of shit and will not listen to reason, we SHOULD retaliate by calling them out on their BS directly. For example, glenn beck should be shouted down and made to look like a fool for what he said about the norway tragedy. And right wing overzealous Christian lobbyists who cry that games were the cause of the shooting should be told in no uncertain terms that the man believed himself to be a crusader protecting "european christendom from the evils of islam" and said as much himself, so THAT'S probably the cause.

And if they turn off our mics while we retaliate verbally, or shout over us and cut us off to stop us from making our points or do other unfair debating tactics, then yeah, sure, I think it's time to show them that they're not the only ones who can be dicks about stuff. At this point, Amazon bomb away, you crazy people.


TLDR version: Start off being mature and intelligent, but if they start slinging mud at you, then it's probably time to return fire.
 

E.m.S.

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now (again) im kinda happy i live in the eu where reason (even in tv) is held higher than spouting pointless shit a bit louder than your opponent
 

Sylocat

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Finally, Jim Sterling justifies his existence. This is a point that HASN'T already been made by dozens of wittier and more insightful game commentators than Jim Sterling... and this also happens to be something that I have known and been pointing out for years now.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I'm not gonna lie, these comments have persudaded me to give the Jimquisition another go...

I'll report back if I feel robbed of valuable minutes or not...
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Gunner 51 said:
But why are gamers so interested in winning over Fox News? They're fools. Let's not get bogged down in what the likes of Fox News have to say, they simply aren't worth the hassle - they're trolls. By arguing with them, we feed them.

I say bollocks to Fox and let's get on with something a bit more worthwhile - like playing games. I cannot speak for the entire Escapist community, but I would rather lose a game honestly than win as a cheat. For that is the test of an honourable man.



Because Taxi Driver is cooler then Citizen Kane. And Travis likes your style.
 

pyro42

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wow i could not disagree with this video more, look what Jim is suggesting is a short term solution at best, and a complete demonstration of the industry at worst. I am a Christian, and I don't think video games are the devil. but what we are dealing with is an older generation that has not come to terms with the industry. This happened to movies and it will happen to what ever comes next. If we as gamers act in the way that Jim suggests then video games "time of troubles"(if you will excuse a D&D reference) will be even longer, now i respect Jim and i think he has had some good points, but i have to disagree with him on this one. Sorry Jim:-(
 

Aprilgold

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I stopped watching when one of the Related thingys at the top of the video was Fox News and Sex Box, yeah, no, those don't need to be talked about, since they have already buried themselves.

I just found it weird.
 

Mid-Boss

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He's right. If we were arguing or trying to get our point across to sane, reasonable, people then... there wouldn't be an argument to begin with. But no, we're fighting against loud, manipulative, ass holes. When quiet logic fights loud stupidity, loud stupidity usually wins.
 

MonkeyPunch

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I pissed myself laughing this episode.

As for the topic... immature or practical and reasoned - the people that talk smack like FOX about games won't listen and care either way, in my opinion. The points could be communicated in an infantile manner or in mature way. They've got their opinion (usually not based on experience of research) and they'll stick to them regardless of the delivery.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I... actually agree to an extent. On fox news you need to shout and swing your dick about and trying to be ultra reasonable is not the right aprouch, he should have talked over THEM a little and drawn attention to the retarded nature of the debate or talked about the whole aprouch of the network in the debate drawing attention to the lack of attention he was getting and how they are going to raid-road him no matter how much or little he speaks. When in a shouting match games sometimes need to shout a little.

But on almost every other occasion the aprouch of being reasonable does seem to work as long was we are reasonable AND Visible and Effective. What if he had just flown off the handle? Fox would have played the footage back for weeks trying to dismantle him for doing waht the other guests had done becuase he was 'wrong'. If you act like an adult it can show up the sham that mis taking place around you.The on air discusson was absurd and there was no real way to 'win' in that situation. The victory came later, they were burried by their own words.

There was no groundswell against mass effect inspired by his 'poor' performace on air. No one really though Mass Effect was a sex simulator. The network was openly macked for its frankly brainless coverage and has been seemingly reluctant to negatively report on games since due to the fact that it is basically sticking its proveribal dick in the internet beehive.

Being timid is no way to win i agree, the best things games can do is have a robust lobby and be able to attck outlets for slanderous comments. Someone openly lying about games on air should fill the networks with pant-wetting fear of the wrath of the publishers.
 

feauxx

Commandah
Sep 7, 2010
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gold star for jim! thank god indeed.

i hereby cast my vote for jim to be our jack thompson.
 

Vonnis

New member
Feb 18, 2011
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It's depressing how right Jim is. His point doesn't just hold up for games, but for everything. People don't want to hear reason. They have already formed their opinion, or rather they've already had it spoonfed to them. Trying to reason with them is pointless; all too often the only way to get results without resorting to violence is to take the piss on them until they start to cry.
 

jcg

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Jul 14, 2009
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pyro42 said:
wow i could not disagree with this video more, look what Jim is suggesting is a short term solution at best, and a complete demonstration of the industry at worst. I am a Christian, and I don't think video games are the devil. but what we are dealing with is an older generation that has not come to terms with the industry. This happened to movies and it will happen to what ever comes next. If we as gamers act in the way that Jim suggests then video games "time of troubles"(if you will excuse a D&D reference) will be even longer, now i respect Jim and i think he has had some good points, but i have to disagree with him on this one. Sorry Jim:-(
Fox "news" and the bible thumping christians won't be convinced anyway, so why not use them to vent you fustration. Not to insult, but how can you agrue with someone that uses the argument: "The sky wizard told me so". They will flat out refuse clear facts and arguments just to keep their point of view. The only way to "win" is taking a grade /b/ troll and see how long it takes for a vein to pop in their brain.
 

Clonekiller

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Dec 7, 2010
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Damn straight! When someone disagrees with you on a controversy, do you use facts and argue the point? Hell no! Go all out and launch personal attacks. However, since review bombing only works for those with published books, pull out the other weapons in the gamer arsenal. Flood their mail accounts with hate mail, crash any websites they might have, and hack their mail and social accounts, publishing their personal information on the web. That way, if anyone seeks to question us, they might think twice before prodding the gamers. Cause that's what you do in a free democratic republic. You intimidate or pummel your opposition into submission.

(It's called sarcasm Jack)
 

Royas

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Apr 25, 2008
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The current situation regarding the game industry and their lack of reaction to critics reminds me a little of the state of tabletop RPG's such as Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's. At that time, D&D was getting a bad rap as a game about Satanism and witchcraft, and that those who played it were being led down a path to hell, paved with the blood of babies and the like. Much of this was because of the efforts of a very few people, especially one Pat Pulling (now deceased), who made it her personal goal to destroy RPG's. She didn't do this with reasoned debate, she did this with lies and deceit, by poisoning the well with police and educators with so-called "expert" papers regarding the subject. In short, childishness.

Scary part is, she nearly succeeded in some ways. Many authorities did develop concerns regarding RPG's, due in no small part to her efforts. And TSR during the entire time this was happening did nothing. They had a policy of ignoring the criticism, I guess under the theory guidance counselors have that the bully will go away if you ignore them. Much like the gaming industry is doing today, and I think that's a big mistake on their part. They could, and should, be leading the efforts to educate the public on what gaming really is all about. It's their business, for crying out loud, what the hell are they waiting for? Ignoring Pulling didn't make her go away, it was the efforts of fans and independents that disarmed her, and only her death made her actually stop.

What made her efforts ineffectual in the long run wasn't childish diatribes against her, but rather reasoned efforts to actually educate authorities and the public in the truth. Mike Stackpole helped a lot with The Pulling Report, a long and well researched counter to anti-gaming hysteria.

Childish railing at the enemy can get results in the short term. As Jim said, people notice that kind of behavior, it attracts attention and causes a spectacle. But in the long run, tactics like that will fail if they aren't backed up by reason and debate. You act like a screaming idiot long enough, eventually people are going to stop being amused by you, and will take steps to ignore you, or shut you up (such as what happened to Jack Thompson, the poster child for childish insanity in public). They will notice the screaming child, but they will remember the calm statesman long after that child is gone from their minds forever.
 

gamegod25

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Jul 10, 2008
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He's right about one thing, I disagree with him. Haters are gonna hate, as they say, and there will always be niche religious and conservative groups that will portray games as evil, it's possible to argue and call them out on their bull**** without sinking to their level. Most of the idiocy is better off ignored (especially people like Fox and JT) because like a bratty child all they really want is attention. And anyone who would listen to them and actually take them seriously are just as stupid and stubborn and nothing can be done to change it. Now when they try to impose unconstitutional laws then of course we should fight back, but acting just as stupid and immature isn't going to help.

You don't really think that because her book was trolled that so called "expert" actually learned her lesson do you? If she was so unprofessional as to speak out against something she had barely seen before, then I highly doubt any amount of gamer rage is going to change that. If Jeff had been just as dumb and loud as the rest of the people on the show it wouldn't have made a lick of difference, except for giving them more ammo to use against gamers.

I'm all for calling people out for the ignorant douchebags they are, but it defeats the purpose if we stoop to their level in the process. You may be able to get a whiny brat to shut up by screaming back in their face, but you'll just end up embarrassing yourself to everyone else in the store.
 

ripdajacker

Code Monkey
Oct 25, 2009
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I sure am glad I don't live in a country where Fox News is considered being nothing more than a biased load of bad journalism. A great topic Jim, nonetheless.

A sequence of arguments like: A murders B -> A plays GTA -> In GTA you can kill people. -> A murdered B because of GTA. That's just bullshit. Even if the person committing the murder got the idea from GTA, or the game somehow led him to the act of committing murder, it is still not the games fault. To quote Chris Rock: Whatever happened to crazy?

If a person cannot distinguish gameplay from reality then that person is mentally ill and should get help. If he does not get help it is not Rockstars fault, nor is it Hollywoods fault. It is more likely parental neglect and/or teachers/guardians of some sort failing to recognize anti-social behavior.

I think it's best to ignore mediums like Fox News. They obviously have a extremely biased debate, that wouldn't catch on outside the US. I blame the school system for producing such ignorant retards.
 

Siege_TF

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May 9, 2010
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The people who are insisting that we should always take the high road without exception don't realize that equal and opposite reaction isn't just theroy, it's the law, and anyone trying to argue with idiots intelligently is in violation of that law.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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Yeah, maybe being childish will go convince the masses of retards who listen to Fox News that games aren't the spawn of the devil, but in the process you'll lose your dignity and the respect of anyone with something between their ears. Here's an idea; maybe we leave the monkeys to throw their faeces while we go on with doing what we want.
 

Noswad

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Mar 21, 2011
214
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Maybe there's definitely room for immature antics, they are effective, but once we've shouted down the critics we still have to act responsibly again. Anyway it's probably going to require a more mixed approach, immature for the idiots at fox news and the daily mail and a more mature approach for anyone willing to debate the issue.

On one on one arguments in real life the facts will always win there is no audience no judges, it is a pure contest to flood your opponents mind with doubt and victory is awarded to the one who walks away still confident they are right. I personally have managed to convince people who used to think games were nothing but immature toys, that even if they are not for them, there is nothing inherently wrong with them displaying mature content.

Remember scream like an idiot at a monkey and it may shut up but scream at someone talking in a cinema and you'll just get thrown out.
 

farscythe

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Dec 8, 2010
382
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Joe McGahan said:
It's effective alright, but I don't think I could live in a world where we all sink to Fox News level.
eh tbh...i think its to late for that ever see politicians rise above fox news level ?
 

pyro42

New member
Aug 22, 2009
17
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jcg said:
pyro42 said:
wow i could not disagree with this video more, look what Jim is suggesting is a short term solution at best, and a complete demonstration of the industry at worst. I am a Christian, and I don't think video games are the devil. but what we are dealing with is an older generation that has not come to terms with the industry. This happened to movies and it will happen to what ever comes next. If we as gamers act in the way that Jim suggests then video games "time of troubles"(if you will excuse a D&D reference) will be even longer, now i respect Jim and i think he has had some good points, but i have to disagree with him on this one. Sorry Jim:-(
Fox "news" and the bible thumping christians won't be convinced anyway, so why not use them to vent you fustration. Not to insult, but how can you agrue with someone that uses the argument: "The sky wizard told me so". They will flat out refuse clear facts and arguments just to keep their point of view. The only way to "win" is taking a grade /b/ troll and see how long it takes for a vein to pop in their brain.
but that's the thing, there is no way to win, well not now at lest. Look like i said I'm not only a Christian but a pastor, a youth pastor that is, and i have had to work with these people that takes every thing that Fox New says for gospel truth. though it is fun to have ask them to back up there agreement with scripture. But here is the thing we don't have to beat them now, most of these people are over the age of 50 and lets face it old people die, we will out last them, the problem is how will we be remembered by those who replace them. if we sink to there level the answer is not well.
 

YouEatLard

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Jun 20, 2010
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Eh... kinda?

Ok, going on Fox was a bad idea. Going on Fox and trying to be an adult was a bad idea. Going on Fox, trying to be an adult and not expecting what happened, was a dumb idea. That was our bad and dude should have been or prepared. He was ready for CNN, NBC, or any other channel, but not fox. Fox is a channel that requires idiocy to fight idiocy.

In general.... We need to be careful. To much like this will get us put in the boat with hacker oganizations.

However.... You do have a point.
 

winter2

New member
Oct 10, 2009
370
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Hurrmmm...... I believe Jimbo is on to something here. Clearly reason is not working with the unreasonable and maybe the time is right to fight fire with fire.

We can only hope that the Democratic party would feel the same way and give the republicans back what they are dishing out.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Aug 3, 2011
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Games will be fine. Movies went through the same issue in the 80s and earlier. When a medium grows u people, who dont even have a clue about the games, freak out. Like with the Masseffect thing...people that moaned never played it....they should be brought up on this fact, and not anything else. Best way to screw up a persons intigrity is to bring facts that they have no research or played the game they are insulting.

Now days games are rated for kids, teens or adults. There is no issues. Why ***** if an 18 cert game is violent? Erm....its rated 18, kids cant buy it. (Ok they can, but like us as kids you can find a way) but the law is doing all it can to rate things. The rest is up to the parents. Also the fact is kids will get hold of bad stuff, as 13 i would see horror movies and find porn mags dumped near railroad tracks. You can only protect kids so much. Like swearing is a big no-no on tv, but we all learned it from friends in the playground.
 

Gunner 51

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Jun 21, 2009
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Tin Man said:


Because Taxi Driver is cooler then Citizen Kane. And Travis likes your style.
Thank you very much, Tin Man. I'm glad that you approve of my post. I don't think gaming will have it's Citizen Kane in the near future. Films and games as media simply cannot be expected to compete with one another.

But what gaming can do is have it's own wunderkinden. Games like Half Life, Team Fortress 2, Heavy Rain, Beyond Good & Evil.

All gamers have to do is continue to show maturity and learn to live and let live and ignore the trolls at Fox. Because they will never be happy with anything you do, bringing yourself down to their level is a very, very bad idea and will only serve to make gamers the world over look like immature children.
 

SenseOfTumour

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Jul 11, 2008
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This whole thing reminded me of the Jam sketch about the agency that hires out thick people to argue for you 'because they're too thick to understand that they've lost'.


Maybe we should a loud, overbearing, arrogant type to go on Fox and talk to Daily Mail journos, and we'll save our smart, reasoning, logical types to appear on other news networks and talk to real journalists.
 

tobimaro

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Nov 23, 2010
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I'd rather not have to stoop to the level of Fixed News, but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
 

dbenoy

New member
Jul 7, 2011
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Being inflammatory and arrogant, and being logical and reasonable, are not mutually exclusive.

It's possible to listen to your opponents, and calmly and thoroughly address their points, while at the same time being assertive and saying bold things that spark outrage.

The amazon bombing is a separate issue. It's a type of protest, not a type of argumentative technique.
 

Isaac The Grape

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Apr 27, 2010
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And this is why I watch you Jim, it does matter whether I agree or not (generally I do) you are good at making a point, fleshing it out, and giving a strong argument. Thank you again, now get back to work.
 

Urh

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Oct 9, 2010
216
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Perhaps gaming needs its own Jack Thompson, someone to shout down the idiots for the delight of the masses.
Sounds like you're putting yourself forward as a candidate there, Jim. Truth be told, I think you'd fit right in on Fox News. Better practice your shouting.

EDIT: Another thought just struck me. Jim must not be aware of the aphorism "Never argue with an idiot - they force you down to their level, then beat you with experience". Arguing childishly (especially on Fox News) essentially requires one to regularly argue with fucking morons.
 

Grey Day for Elcia

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Jan 15, 2012
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Just when you think Jim can't get any worse, he decides to cut the final threads and plummet into complete idiocy. It's people like Jim that ruin a good thing. We make all the progress we want and some loud mouthed ass comes along and decides to act like a complete wanker because "we're all acting too mature." This is the man who spends his time harassing women on Twitter and whom still thinks **** is a funny word.

Yes, Jim, throw a tantrum when you don't get your way. That'll teach them.

The Escapist once stood for intelligent discussion. What ever happened to that? We're hiring people with a god-complex to dribble all over pages and read aloud their inner ramblings now? You'd get better advice reading the shredded mess found after dumping the contents of a Scrabble box into a blender.

In case that was above you, Jim, and judging by your content it went straight over your head, let me dumb it down to the level you so enthusiastically suggested we should: you're an idiot.

Let's fire the troll and stop giving him the attention he doesn't deserve. Who am I kidding--this is the Escapist! They'll probably spend all their money making Jim a special medal and forget to pay the people with actual talent.