Jimquisition: Hate Out Of Ten

xyrafhoan

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Already the Gamespot forums seem to be imploding on themselves with a mixture of Nintendo fanboy rage and anti-Nintendo fanboy smug gloating. And then there was this thread, which immediately made me think of this video.

http://www.gamespot.com/the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/forum/messages/platform/wii?tag=topics;title&topic_id=m-1-61031040&pid=960633
 

Carnagath

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People on the internet write foolish things, no surprise here. There are enough reviews out there for anyone to compare and reach some sort of bottom line, while discarding the ones that are obviously bollocks (Jim's AssCreed 2 review comes to mind here) without the need to flood the guy's comment section with abuse. As for scores, anyone who needs scores that actually use the whole 0-10 scale truthfully needs to turn to blogs, big publications fucked that up beyond repair a loooong time ago.
 

Daemonate

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I remember back in the 90s, PC Gamer was the standard of review integrity.

They gave I think TWO 90%+ reviews in about 5 years. 70% was a GREAT review, a game I nearly had to buy. 85%? HOLY SHIT IMPORT BEFORE RELEASE!

Doom and System Shock 2 were the only games I recall getting above 90.
 

jezcentral

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I thought he was going to break-out into a Downfall speech when he reached up to his glasses with his left hand at the end, there.
 

Zydrate

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Seriously? 8 is good. When I review things like books, movies, and shows... Sometimes I rate as low as 6 while most of the review is semi positive. Because anything above 7, to me, is really good and there's very few things that good.
 

Tinybear

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I agree a lot with Jim here, but I feel that the problem is also with the scale.
To illustrate this, I would like to share my experience hunting for a new TV. I came across a site that ranked the TV as a 8.4 of 10, which isn't bad, but it then explained its own scale. Their experience was that all modern TV's have such a high standard, that they defined their scale so that anything below 7.5 was inadequate and should not be bought. This is logical, as the experience you get on each TV is actually so close to identical that it is the tenths of the grade where they differ. I liked this review method, because it gave perspective to the fact that quality is so high in general that giving a TV a 5/10 because it was the worst out of 5 excellent test subjects isn't fair.

Now, consider the typical game production. This is a collaboration of a ton of people, and of course it will meet a lot of standards. So what can you do? You can either make a score readjusted to the standards of today, which is what Jim does when he gives out mediocre scores, because he knows there are better implementations of the ideas out there already, or you can specify the scale to say that below 7.5 is shit.

So, if a review is on a 1-10 scale, 5 should be a game that is "meh", 6 should be enjoyable and worthwhile, 7 is good, 8 is great, 9 is one of the best games this year, 10 is one of the best games this decade.
 

Smertnik

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Scores have always been meaningless and always will be. They're just arbitrary numbers. What matters is the actual review text.
 

Emergent System

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This is what I like about Jim's videos. Half (well, not that many, but I say half for dramatic effect) of them I will feel are stupid shit for which he deserves to be punched in the dick, and the others are what I think is right on the ball. This is one of the latter.

There are different philosophical approaches to the rating system for games, whihc is where I think that most of these outrages come from, but whichever one you adhere to the rating system for games has gotten pretty absurd and obsessive these days.
 

Mahoshonen

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There's something else going on here, that Jim doesn't bring up: a lot of games that have deep underlying flaws in them and are panned by the fans wind up getting high marks by reviewers anyway. This is not like with Psychonauts where the games was ignored, but games like Oblivion and Black and White and Final Fantasy XIII receiving high marks despite tons of criticism both inside and outside their respective fanbase. In addition, there is no consensus on what game deserves a good score and what doesn't. See the big divide between people who think that Metal Gear Solid 4 was a masterpiece that brought a satisfying ending to the series, and those who think it's an incomprehensible mess. So when you give a game like Gears of War 3 an 8/10, at least some of the reaction stems from people saying, "WHAT? You really believe that GoW 3 isn't as good a game as Final Fantasy XIII? You have to be shitting me!!"

So I guess my point is that a single score review is inheirently flawed and needs to be abandoned.
 

Daemonate

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Tinybear said:
I agree a lot with Jim here, but I feel that the problem is also with the scale.
To illustrate this, I would like to share my experience hunting for a new TV. I came across a site that ranked the TV as a 8.4 of 10, which isn't bad, but it then explained its own scale. Their experience was that all modern TV's have such a high standard, that they defined their scale so that anything below 7.5 was inadequate and should not be bought. This is logical, as the experience you get on each TV is actually so close to identical that it is the tenths of the grade where they differ. I liked this review method, because it gave perspective to the fact that quality is so high in general that giving a TV a 5/10 because it was the worst out of 5 excellent test subjects isn't fair.

Now, consider the typical game production. This is a collaboration of a ton of people, and of course it will meet a lot of standards. So what can you do? You can either make a score readjusted to the standards of today, which is what Jim does when he gives out mediocre scores, because he knows there are better implementations of the ideas out there already, or you can specify the scale to say that below 7.5 is shit.

So, if a review is on a 1-10 scale, 5 should be a game that is "meh", 6 should be enjoyable and worthwhile, 7 is good, 8 is great, 9 is one of the best games this year, 10 is one of the best games this decade.
That is utterly, utterly retarded. Full points for at least explaining their ranking, however. You don't pre-skew a rating system. The 50% mark of any rating system should be the median mark. Modern education, with its failing system 'scaling' grades to make a Credit or Second-Class Honours mark being 'average' has twisted people's perspective.
This means that no matter how close things are, including TVs, you scale your system to absorb that same-ness. The difference between them is what pokes out the end above 50%. If TVs are much the same, then ratings should get HARDER not softer - you need WAY better than bare-bones to get above 55%. You need to do the same thing as everyone really cheaply, or have extra support or features.

A game, or any product doesn't deserve a rating for ANY reason than objective quality metrics. It doesn't get 75% just for showing up with working code. 5/10 to me means the game is AVERAGE. Because that's the MIDDLE of the rating system. Why would you skew your rating scale from the outset? Put it this way: if every game gets above 5/10, then what's the point of those first 5 marks? What do they say other than "this game which has been published and made it to market actually loads on my computer!? Astonishing!". They are purposeless marks. Why not just remove them entirely and grade the game out of 5? WHy??? Because then people will complain you have lost granularity in your system. But it's already gone, people.

A good example is a Magazine in my local area, Atomic MPC. They mark hardware like graphics cards. Their average mark is around 60-65% for these products. However they are not ashamed to hand out the occasional 50 or evn 45%. Yet desktop graphics cards are almost ENTIRELY undifferentiated product to product. Same reference design, same drivers, same chips...
So they grade on the part that isn't the same. A card goes below 50% if it fails to do the basic, average things, ie Pamasomic X overheats and is noisy, and costs 15% more than the rest, but otherwise is on par with other cards - 40%.

But Gigabyte x version has slightly better performance, 70%. Sapphire X is cheaper for the same thing - 75%. Asus X comes with a huge software bundle, but is a bit slow - 65%. MSI X overclocks like crazy, but has nothing, 69%. Wow, NEWBRAND X DOES IT ALL - 85% Highly Recommended!

That's how you grade TVs. Or games.
 

ThunderCavalier

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People are... disappointed... by 8s.

And 9s...

And this is actually a recurring trend and becoming a big deal.

Jim actually had to bring this up.

I...

I...

*twitch*



Oh, humanity. You with your Twilight and Justin Bieber and Transformers and Rebecca Black and whatnot. STOP GIVING ME REASONS TO LOSE FAITH IN YOU!
 

Torrasque

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Link XL1 said:
ya no sorry, i watched the first episode and didnt like it. thought maybe i'd give jim another try, but NOPE i still cant watch this guy's videos. i just dont like him
Really? Since his first few vids, I've taken a liking to him.
You just have to get used to how he talks, it can be a bit annoying at first, but he is not always serious.
Most people get and like Yahtzee's reviews right away, because sarcasm is a required language to interact with the internet.
Worgen said:
I can only remember one review that really pissed me off and it wasn't the number that it got, it was one of the things the review mentioned, it said that the game had bad graphics, specifically it said this game had bad graphics
<spoiler=Spoiler'd to save on loading time>

That is a shot from kings bounty: the armored princess, the only way you can say that is bad graphics is if your so shallow you need every little fucken thing to be bump mapped out the ass.
Thats like a friend of mine refusing to play Borderlands because he doesn't like cell shading...
"OMG WINDWAKER IS SHIT BECAUSE IT LOOKS CARTOONY" Really? Thats the only argument you have? Really.

On topic: I agree entirely. As you said, people have forgotten that games with 8/10 are still pretty great games. I've been to my local game store and seen people pick up games that I know are good, the game itself says "hey, I'm a pretty sweet game" and they'll say "nah, it heard it got bad reviews". What the fuck man?!
 

Torrasque

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Tinybear said:
So, if a review is on a 1-10 scale, 5 should be a game that is "meh", 6 should be enjoyable and worthwhile, 7 is good, 8 is great, 9 is one of the best games this year, 10 is one of the best games this decade.
I've always gone with the tried and true:
<5: don't buy it, you won't like it
5: Meh, you might like it. I think it is mediocre
6: Its alright I guess
7: Good, could be better
8: Pretty damn good
9: This game is fucking great!
10: I can find nothing wrong with this game and would marry it if I could

I think most people get caught up with the whole "X game got Y rating, and Z game is better than X game imo, so it should get a higher rating!" but they don't seem to realize that games are not rated against each other, they are rated against the completely neutral system that doesn't give a shit about other games.
So when Halo gets a better rating than Doom, and people rage, they forget it is based on the system, not the games.
I feel sorry for the guys and gals that have to rate games, I really do...
That is, if they weren't getting paid to play video games... /so jelly
 

Tinybear

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Daemonate said:
Well, you should understand one thing: your example is a local magazine. They do what I like to call "grouped reviews". Their reviews are based on the pretense of "if you're going to buy something this month, this will tell you what's the best buy". This is a good method, but it does not give a shit of info if you are comparing different months' reviews to each other. In the graphic cards department, it's rather easy, you will almost always have better results going for a higher number, but in games, the standard is something less tangible, and it does not simply 1-up once the hardware does. This causes the normalized curve to take into account the horrible games that were before, and really, if you play a modern game, and compare it to the old stuff, you realize that modern games have gotten rid of so incredibly many large flaws. Of course, they're not necessarily better just because of that (still haven't seen anything rival Banjo-Kazooie).

My point is that when ranking something on a scale on which you plan to rank things for mostly the same parameters on for the next 4 years, you can't just re-adjust the curve to be normalized all the time, because it might just be that there comes a ton of good games. Take right now for instance, Skyrim, Skyward Sword, BF3, MW3 all have come out at the same time. The first is said to be the best of its series in all aspects, and one of the best games ever, so it isn't so hard to understand that it should get a top rating. Skyward Sword however, is a damn good game, and by itself, it deserves a hell of a good rating, but it is also a Zelda game, so the reviewer has to take into account the expectations and and quality of the previous installments of the series, and has a conflict. He can review it based on how it is relative to the current game situation, where it is practically one of a kind, he can review it based on how it measures to Ocarina of Time for instance.

You see that a conflict arises. There are many solutions.
1: get the reviewers to stop basing half the score on technical info. IGN is perhaps the worst on doing this, they will give a game more than 5 if it has a working engine with some sort of shading. Removing the tech from the game review, and only taking it into account for the worst and best cases, will remove a lot of the guilt that arises from not giving a rather polished game a decent score, and will allow the rating system to go back to 8/10 being a good score.

2: accept that the ranking system is skewed, and use decimals. This will allow game ratings to differ more within the skewed curve. This will mean that you have the hate/10, but it's more understandable when the curve starts at 6 for proper games, and it will let the reviewer more easily express that he feels that the game is within the same league of awesome as most other games, but has minor differences that distinguishes it. This helps a lot for sequels for instance, because giving a 9.3 to Skyward Sword will mean that it is one of the best damn games made, but still can't reach OoT which got 10.0 if that is the opinion of the reviewer. And yes, I'm making up these numbers, not founded in reality.

3: stop using a numerical value. Really, instead of having to tackle the issue, you can just say it: "MW3 is pretty much MW2 with new polish. You will be playing the same game in essence, you decide if you're fine with that". No numbers, no letting gamers be lazy in their choice of games.