Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

hentropy

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These debates always seem to go in more or less the same direction. Crazy person(s) goes off and does something crazy relating to video games, then video game journalists are more or less obligated to come out as Jim does and denounce it in the strongest possible terms. But you still have people who think with good intentions that we shouldn't make a big deal out of it, that it lends it more credence than it deserves to prompt a loud and outraged response, because people are just going to keep doing it for the attention or whatever.

It is a difficult puzzle. People have brought up dedicated fanbases in other mediums- your One Direction or Bieber or any other pop idol of the day fanatics. But think about it, do any of them have really good public perceptions? We just sort of assume that boy band fanatics are crazed and willing to do crazy things if it means getting to see their favorite band, and go as far as threatening them with violence if they show up at a concert late.

We also have seen this dynamic with much bigger and more impacting issues, as well- take the old American south or the current perspective on Muslims in America. Not every person in the old south was a KKK member, many even believed that things had to change, but when confronted with these issues they either stayed silent or tried to shift the issue to how many things in the south were good (see: "Sweet Home Alabama")- which of course didn't erase the gross injustices. We also see the current debate on terrorism, while the vast majority of Muslims obviously don't support what the terrorists do and may denounce it, they also try to switch the subject, talk about damaging foreign policy and how Christians have done some terrible things, as well. They don't like getting lumped in with the crazies, but they also go on the defensive, and then the attack about other matters. As such, people see them, many times unfairly as defending or sympathizing with the terrorists, when all they really had to do is say "that is wrong and not Islam" very loudly and leave it at that.

In the end, people don't see "gamers" as those that play iOS/Android games and play Madden every once in a while, we're talking about, well, us. Avid gamers that devote a lot of time to them, and yes these crazies are seen as gamers just as the rest of us, even if they are crazy and hiding behind relative anonymity. If we all come out with a deafening roar to say these things are not okay, with no qualifications, no unrelated tangents, no attacking of the victims, no decrying of "political correctness" or something in that vein, just a loud, resounding, and undeniable denouncement. If we don't- if we have 400 post debates about an issue that should be so simple, we will be seen as a "well yes that is wrong, BUT" kind of a culture that we have seen many times before, and they always work against themselves.
 

ellieallegro

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Jim mirrors exactly my sentiments on what I like to call a horrible risk/reward career. If I was a creative and was thinking about getting into the video game industry I would have three choices: Put up with abuse and ignore it, hire a pr firm to do it for me or just not do it at all and find another outlet for your creative energy. One takes a certain type of person which you already know if you are or not, two takes money which you might not have if you are an indie and three seems like the best choice to me.

Similarly, I had a friend who recently graduated with an MA and her teaching credential from a good grad school and she was considering going into the K-12 system here in Los Angeles. She asked me for my advice and I told her that she was crazy for even considering it with her talent and credentials. Why put up with crap from students, parents, administrators and others who WILL look down on you because you have an "easy" job since you get the summer off... not to mention people feel they have the right to ***** about the teacher's union to you even though you have little to do with the politics of the situation (btw the unions will only protect you if you are at least 5-10 years in and by that time you are already a burned out husk of a person to care). Too much risk, not enough reward is my point.

Sure, the failing school system lost out on another bright young mind but my friend is much, much happier working at the non-profit she now works at where she gets treated with respect both financially and professionally.

TLDR: If you have the talent, run far, far away from any high risk low reward career that isn't going to give you the respect you deserve. And that includes the video game industry.
 

MoeMints

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Okay this is like the fourth video in a row where Jim just bitches about a vocal minority and then ruins it by using sweeping strokes that makes it apply to every opposing view.

Only this one is the most obvious and generalizing so far.
You had a great point until you mentioned Phil Fish and started blabbering about creativity.
There are many writers that can be superior and would tolerate the abuse.
This isn't a good defense for them.

Phil Fish is ironically a case of uncensored reactionary entitlement to saying whatever goes through his head on a dime.
However, you would feel that's justified and you and many others WILL DEFEND IT, because you feel its "unique and interesting"?

Even in the Dragon's Crown and feminism videos, you seemed to at least have some people's attention you were talking about, though they most likely didn't even care.
Now you're just not understanding this is human nature for a loud minority of people on the internet in general.

You aren't getting to people you're talking about. AT ALL.
 

Deacon Cole

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People keep sending Jim fucked up sex toys.

See. This is why I don't have my own video show. I don't want to receive shit like that from fans. I don't even want fans because fans are twats.

I also don't have anything interesting to say, but that doesn't stop the hundreds of other people who have Youtube channels and the like.
 

JoeyMousepadd

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Jim,

I'm not really up on gaming news as much as some others, but I do enjoy your segment every week. That being said, I had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Next time, can you give a little more context? What did she write? Where? Why were people so offended by what she wrote? A little more back story could have gone a long way with this one.
 

JarinArenos

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hentropy said:
These debates always seem to go in more or less the same direction. Crazy person(s) goes off and does something crazy relating to video games, then video game journalists are more or less obligated to come out as Jim does and denounce it in the strongest possible terms.
I think that other sectors could stand to be MORE vocal in denouncing their crazy elements. It'd go a long way towards my opinion of organized religion if I saw any of them speaking out against people like Westboro.
Edit:
Antigonius said:
So, why does it comes to this: when Phil Fish quited from the game industry, Jim and most of you guys told him to "grow the f**k up and deal with it", but when a woman does the same, everyone gets to defend her and yell that gamers are soulless douches?
Did... you not watch Jim's video on Fish at all? Jim defended the man. I'm pretty sure the same people that said he should grow the eff up are the same people saying that here. So no, toss your feminist conspiracies back in the shoebox for next time.
 

maddawg IAJI

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Feb 12, 2009
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wulf3n said:
It's up to the person being insulted to raise an issue if they feel offended not everyone who witnesses it.
You're literally quoting, word for word, the problem that arises with the bystander effect. There's a reason why the report button exists on everyone's screen dude, and that's because we trust the community to use it when they see something like that.
wulf3n said:
If the person being targeted didn't find it offensive why should the other party be punished?
Because it still shouldn't be tolerated. If you're being an asshole to everyone, you should still be punished for being an asshole. How do you expect the problem users to learn or finally be cast out if no one points them out? Admins run entirely on reports, we can't see the posts unless someone stands up and points them out.
wulf3n said:
How can an observer know if it's not friendly banter, just without the context that may have been established by the two parties in another thread?
Well for one, most friendly banter tends to be over the top and obvious, but you bring up a good point. Not every post is going to be black and white. Welcome to my world, where I often get put into scenario's similar to that. I just expect people to use their best judgement and, if they're unsure, report it anyways and allow the admins to judge it.[/quote]


tardcore said:
Moot point as far as this argument goes, as saying "Don't lump me in with the crazies" is not the same as "Let's just ignore the crazies." Thanks for spuriously implying that is what any of us who are annoyed that Jim let these idiots hijack his entire weekly video so he could scream at them, are saying.
You're welcome. Sorry mate, but if you post in their threads (Or at least read their thread) and you don't bother reporting them, you might as well be ignoring them.
tardcore said:
Those of us saying that we feel his time could have been better spent in a more positive manner does not mean we in any way condone people threatening violence against someone they don't like.
Yeah, I noticed you don't condone violence, and that's good. It means you have a sense of morality. But your morality is wasted if you choose to allow those who don't have any morals to run rampant. I'm sorry, but its true.
tardcore said:
or in your own depiction, apathetics.
Because we are apathetic. When someone tells us that they slept with our mother or calls us a fag, do you think the majority of the gaming community mutes and reports? Of course not. Insult throwing is considered to be a stereotype among gamers. We don't like it, but we passively sit by and let it continue, even when we're the targets.

tardcore said:
Yeah that's brilliant. As if there isn't enough trouble with the malcontents who are sending death threats to innocent individuals, now we have people like Jim and yourself inciting the community to judge and turn on any members you feel just aren't as concerned over the issue as they should be.
Because you should be concerned, you shouldn't be arguing how I'm being too harsh on a community that is so fragmented and lacks empathy for one another. I'm telling you to turn on people who don't do anything, I'm asking you to judge and turn on people who are being ignored because people don't anything. Encouraging civic duty is kinda part of my job, both in reality and on the web.

tardcore said:
However if moderating these boards makes you as upset as you sound about it (being sick of seeing aberrant behavior) then maybe burdening yourself with more things to worry about is a bad idea, as it sounds like you have a pretty full plate already.
N'ah, trust me mate, I'm not going through anything the other red guard members have not gone through already.

tardcore said:
When I get time away I like to spend it playing games or chatting on web forums, so when I see individuals rabbiting on about how septic and terrible the community surrounding my hobbies are without what I feel is proper justification or proportion, it tends to annoy me. Especially so when I feel there are quite a bit of positive aspects about these hobbies, yet no one seems to ever want to discuss them. Which I find more than a bit depressing.
Because as sad as it is, you don't make progress pointing out the positive stuff. You need recognize the problems of the gaming community, and one of them happens to be an aggressive player base.


tardcore said:
Oh not at all, I'm just saying as a moderator you should set an example and in this instance I feel you let your emotions override your judgement.
Good. I'm human. I'm not perfect and I hold differing opinions from others. I'm not a paragon and you should not see me that way. I will set an example on how a person should act with others on this site, but I'm not going to sit by and not let my opinion be heard.

I agree, I may have been a tad overemotional on this topic. You'll have to excuse me on that, since bullying has been and always will be a serious problem in my view. But regardless, sometimes you need to go with your gut. If something in the community has made me so angry that it overrode logic, it must be a serious issue. Either that, or I'm a Sith.
 

agmabnox

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No Jim, she's not creative.
She is not daring.
She IS terrible.

Her only non game project (Which was a project done by her and her husband) was one of the worst graphics novels ever made. The fact that she was allowed to be a writer for a company that big for so long is precisely the argument anyone would ever need for why games are not successful as an artistic medium.
She has no right to write a book on game narratives, because she doesn't even GET the narrative power of the medium, she's basically openly stated such.

No, that does not make her deserving of any mistreatment. Anyone who resorts to threatening children because a product was bad (Unless that product happened to be cancer drugs for your own children) is an absolutely terrible person. But let's not paint her as some sort of misunderstood genius here.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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agmabnox said:
She has no right to write a book on game narratives, because she doesn't even GET the narrative power of the medium, she's basically openly stated such.
Yeah, because the Constitution states that only certain people should be allowed to write books under certain conditions.

Have you ever read a book? Have you been to a bookstore? Are you aware of how many terrible, unbelievably bad books have been published since the invention of the printing press?
 

agmabnox

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Aardvaarkman said:
agmabnox said:
She has no right to write a book on game narratives, because she doesn't even GET the narrative power of the medium, she's basically openly stated such.
Yeah, because the Constitution states that only certain people should be allowed to write books under certain conditions.

Have you ever read a book? Have you been to a bookstore? Are you aware of how many terrible, unbelievably bad books have been published since the invention of the printing press?
I would think that you'd understand that I was using it in the same vein as I would if I said "X person does not have the right to lecture on this subject because they are themselves unqualified".
But no.

Obviously she has all legal right to say whatever she wants.
 

Vhite

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Rather noble of you Jim to sacrifice entire episode for one or few people responsible for this but I guess mentally deficient need any extra attention they can get.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Geez, I see so many people attacking the victims -still-, even when the point of this video is to stop it.
Moreover, there's people in this thread completely ignoring the fact that people are threatening -children- and loved ones who are bystanders in all of this.
People seriously are defending the practice of threatening lives here.

I can understand being angry, but it's not like they, personally, mishandled your property, and created a situation where you had to replace things. It's not even like they personally attacked you, even verbally.
Heck, at times these people are only guilty of retalliating. If a person can't, or isn't expected to retalliate, and they get attacked, then what, exactly does that make the attacker? And people get MAD at them for retalliating?

It's not like they didn't care about what services they rendered, and it's not like everyone mad at these people actually spent money on these services.

More fuel for my misanthropy. Huzzah.
 

Vegosiux

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maddawg IAJI said:
Because it still shouldn't be tolerated. If you're being an asshole to everyone, you should still be punished for being an asshole. How do you expect the problem users to learn or finally be cast out if no one points them out? Admins run entirely on reports, we can't see the posts unless someone stands up and points them out.
Funny thing, and completely unrelated mind; over here you can only be persecuted for theft if the person you stole from reports you - even if there are witnesses, the person who was actually harmed needs to give the green light.

Uh, this is more or less just trivia.

Because, honestly, people who make death threats over the internet and get raging boners over making such threats are really, really, really not nice people at all.
 

wulf3n

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maddawg IAJI said:
You're literally quoting, word for word, the problem that arises with the bystander effect. There's a reason why the report button exists on everyone's screen dude, and that's because we trust the community to use it when they see something like that.
We're not talking about a crime here where the "victim" has no means of dealing with the situation, and must rely on bystanders. It's not so much the Bystander Effect as it is the Deal with it yourself Effect.
 

Dante dynamite

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The thing is that a lot of the folks at the escapist aren't the type of people who do this you are basically preaching to the choir. Even if one of those people are watching this episode it isn't going to do anything outside the escapist a lot of gamers on other sites (not all mind you just a lot) don't give a shit especially those who do act terrible for example /v/. Hell this is one of the few sites that actually even discuss Anita's videos or the issue of sexism in games (sort of) seriously in a lot of other places people don't care especially those who are more casually gaming and come to game sites for reviews and announcements.

You can get angry at them, you can decry them you can associate everyone with them and try to makes everyone take responsibility for these actions or you could tell them to behave themselves. But you won't stop it. I'm not saying its okay that these threats are happening but anonymity of any sort will enable people to be horrible because they do not have to confront anyone directly and most suggestions rather won't work, won't be implemented or some are just plain crazy.

Side note: when has a game or game maker been punished with vitriol from the gaming community for being creative. It usually happens when someone tries to do something new with an existing series because people feel the cahne is ruining what they like. again not justifying just saying.