Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

1337mokro

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Dec 24, 2008
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Zachary Amaranth said:
1337mokro said:
WHAAAAAAAT????

You are joking right Jim? This wasn't an actual thing right? You made this up didn't you?
Yeah, he's joking.

...there's no dragon tongue dildo.
You don't know do you? You honestly thought he was joking about that part? Oh Jooooooy :)

Shall I ruin your innocence or shall I not ruin it.... decisions... decisions.... you know what. I am NOT posting the picture. I am posting the link to a very particular site and you can look at it for yourself, if you want to. The decision is yours to make.

http://bad-dragon.com/

It's number 5 on the main page, just in case you have trouble finding... It.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Hmmm, well I think Jim takes it a little too far here mainly because he's taking a scattershot approach to so many separate issues, and also kind of dancing around the problems that lead to this kind of thing to begin with.

To be blunt I don't think threatening the kids of the Dragon Age 2 writer was appropriate. Something I am stating before people read other things I'm about to say and decide to jump on my case acting like I am saying it was, which I am not.

The central issue that this comes down to is untouchable corporate entities, and the rage they are generating by doing so many things wrong and upsetting so many people without much of a way to call them to task for what they do. Video games are just one business where this has become a problem. The old philosophy of "vote with your money" isn't really an option because the deck is so heavily loaded in many cases where you pretty much have to endure the practices of the big businesses or go without the product, which is at least going to bring annoyance to you if it's something you want enough to be upset to begin with. When it comes to certain kinds of products, luxury goods like video games and the like in particular, which involve a high level of investment, actually depriving the companies of money is more likely to drive the investors away and cause an industry crash which will simply cause you more deprivation rather than causing the policies, practices, or product to change.

To be brutally honest people are getting more upset with the global corporate stranglehold than ever before, your seeing violence and threats being leveled against all levels of business, it merely stands out when you see people getting so angry in general that they start issuing death threats against the families of video game writers who really aren't far up enough on the corporate food chain to matter for these purposes and ultimately haven't done much of note. Mostly this is spillover from bigger problems where such behavior isn't quite as inappropriate as many people might think, as unpopular as that point of view is (though it is slowly changing, hence the climb).

To explain when it's right to threaten someone on this level is when they threaten you on that level. Your unscrupulous banker, real estate mogul, corporate big wig, and other sorts who would gladly turn your entire family out on the streets and leave your children to starve, deprive your family of medicine, and take away your home because of the backlash of some housing scam beyond your control or because they figure they can make more money off of the land some other way (pushing for local Eminent Domain if nothing else), are all increasingly fair game. Basically if someone is willing to kill or hurt your family, being willing to do the same back in reverse becomes something else entirely. The argument that you should let the system handle things like this don't apply when these guys run or work with the system intended to police them, and argueing that you can't do this without becoming as bad as they are has no practical weight because the moral high ground doesn't matter when your family suffers when these guys pad their bank accounts and for all intents and purposes might not even acknowledge you as being human (it's all numbers). You threaten a guy in particular, he might not take that particularly seriously or feel threatened if he's confident, threaten his family however and that changes since nobody can afford to have them 100% protected all the time. Of course threats are meaningless, it's a sign of worse things to come I'm afraid, we saw the epic failure of non-violent protest against this kind of thing with "Occupy Wall Street" threats seem to have been on the rise since then, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before we start seeing a lot more domestic terrorism leveled against the untouchable classes through their families and holdings/employees if not against them directly. I actually don't like it believe it or not, I simply see what's happening, can't fault the arguments in any absolute sense, and pretty much take it as "the world sucks" since people get themselves into these problems. When things start to get this hot, on this level, just by the numbers your going to see a lot of threats and maybe even later on violence, directed against inappropriate targets as a spillover.

I'll also say that the guys making the threats against people like video game writers might not be right, but that doesn't suddenly excuse the wrong those people have done. While video games are a luxury product a lot of the bigger issues are being fought not just over things like housing, loan sharking, predatory banking practices, and other issues, but how business is done in general and to force the kind of accountability for quality that video game companies have been rapidly defining as not applying to them through things like their EULAs. The idea is that if you can force the people at the top to change, through any method, it's going to trickle down to the point of not getting this kind of crappy writer in a position like this to begin with. When it comes to "Dragon Age 2" so much was wrong with that game beyond the horrible writing that you can't point at one person and say it was their fault, it was a failure of oversight and someone trying to make a quick cash grab after the success of the first game, while not even having the resources for a GOOD cash grab allocated to it because of so many Bioware employees being tied up on things like "The Old Republic" as their primary responsibility. Bioware's usual policy of focusing on one game and polishing it to a high shine in every aspect simply hasn't been happening under EA management.

In the end the bottom line I'm getting at is that this is a sign of the times we live in. Ideally I'd prefer there to be a case where the checks and balances against capitalism worked a lot better, and it was possible for people to hold big companies accountable for their actions. That has failed for the moment. People have protested, and have largely been made into a bad joke by not being willing to take action. Now your starting to see the kind of simmering hatred that is going to lead to real problems, and this kind of rage while justified to an extent in certain arenas spills over into cases where it's not.

-

I expect most people to skim over the above (at best) and not agree with me even if they read it. However I wanted to also say on a separate track that I think Jim was out of line with the whole claiming gamers are hypocrits for going after creators who give them the creativity that we claim we want.

The reason for this is simple, when your dealing with franchises your playing with an established product/world/style/way things work, producing "more of the same" is pretty much the entire point of a franchise, which is to create a predictable experience for people who like a certain kind of thing. There is a lot of room for creativity within a franchise, but at the end of the day your confined by a pre-existing vision and way of doing things. When a writer works on a franchise, it's not THEIR work, or their rules, they are simply being allowed to play there and things need to be treated with the utmost respect, especially when a particular formula has garnered a following that is coming back with their money specifically so they can get more of the same.

What gamers want is for gaming companies to create more, original, properties, rather than sticking within the same franchises. People still want those franchises as a baseline, but other things to do as well, from separate kinds of products. The problem is that gaming companies have gotten into the habit of wanting everything to be part of a franchise for advertising and promotional purposes. Rather than creating new games and IPs they instead take ideas that should be their own game, and then try and cram them into a franchise which tends to annoy fans that wanted a very specific kind of experience.

In the case of "Dragon Age" the entire thing was a spiritual successor to "Baldur's Gate" it was even promoted that way. It succeeded on those merits. It was never meant to appeal to the more action oriented gamer who wants to control the action directly as opposed to watching things unfold more slowly through phases. Like Baldur's gate it was developed around the idea of making your own protagonist, with different people's characters being able to be very different from each other's in terms of looks, gender, race, class, personality, etc... The kind of franchise that would expand by building on these foundations adding more options rather than left, much like how "Baldur's Gate" started out with very basic D&D classes, but "Baldur's Gate 2" added things like kits to expand the character options.

Now, at it's core "Dragon Age 2" was a fine idea, and would appeal to a certain kind of player different from the demographic of "Origins", the more action oriented player who found it too plodding. Not to mention people who aren't all that interested in creating their own characters and are just fine with being handed a pre-made character and told who it is, rather than defining itself. If Bioware had actually taken the time to polish up the game, add more enviroments, deal with issues like monster pop ins, and similar, it could have been really, really, good. Likewise the writing was mostly bad because it didn't work within the framework of things already established in the first game (such as how likely mages actually are to become abominations). If EA/Bioware had chosen to simply create a NEW franchise for more action oriented fantasy gamers, and let the writer develop her own world based around the specific kinds of plot elements she wanted as opposed to trying to re-define an existing world, things would have been a lot different.

The point here is that the whole argument about creativity is pretty straight forward.

... and again none of this justifies the threats, because honestly it's not a situation where a video game writer is going to cause someone's kids to freeze to death on a street corner by taking away their home or making it so you can't afford to feed them or whatever. Even by the points I was making above where the threats basically come down to "if you go after my family, I'll come after yours". But as I also pointed out you can't blame *Gamers* specifically for this when your seeing it happening everywhere, this is merely a bit of collateral spillover caused by general sentiments with people flapping off at the mouth at businesses in general because they are pretty much spewing so much bile at all of them.

I also kind of predicted things were going to come to this, and probably where they are going eventually if things don't change, back when "Occupy Wall Street" was starting and I saw it's epic fail on the horizon due to a complete lack of teeth and how easily it was to ignore by the people it was supposed to be getting to change. Some smelly dude in a lawn chair doesn't mean much when you can just fly over him in a private helicopter and his basic threat is "reform big business or I'll sit here like a sack of flesh and refuse to bathe". For the most part, the threats and increasing hostility we're seeing will fail too. Give it a few years and we'll probably see incidents of violence targeting businesses (or branches of them) on the rise more than they are now, probably followed by some serious riots where people start trying to do things like storm Wall Street and it's offices.
 

MacChris1991

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Retrograde said:
TWEWYFan said:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.
How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?
If these are the stories people hear about then yes, these are the stories that will come to mind when people think about gamers. The crazies in our group of gamers may be few, but they are loud. And it doesn't help that we gamers as a group are willing to look the other way when it happens. Stories like this make me understand why people outside the culture are so against games. With stories like this, who could blame them?
 

TAdamson

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Jun 20, 2012
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Deadagent said:
I didn't know this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc] still had to be passed around.
Right buddy. Because some random YouTuber's opinion, even if it is completely on the money, is somehow justification for the vitriol directed at Hepler.
 

Burning Desire

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Apr 16, 2010
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what ever happened to i dont like the game because..... death threats really? guess these people have never been part of a beta, cause like that sort of thing would go down real well
 

Mausthemighty

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Aug 3, 2011
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Oh it's that woman... While I agree that you never (NEVER!!!) should threaten anyone for whatever reason, she did say some pretty stupid things in the past.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
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tardcore said:
Uh what? No he isn't playing Devil's advocate against these obviously insane individuals. He is simply stating that people who have committed no actual crime should not be tarred with the same brush as these impulse control issue morons, just because they happen to share the same hobby. And frankly do us all a favor and tone down your "we've done nothing" rhetoric because what the non-batshit insane portion of the community HAVE done, on a daily basis no less, is to NOT MAKE FUCKING DEATH THREATS AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE for insanely trivial fucking reasons, and instead have voiced our opinions politely and rationally.


Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that. I wouldn't be sitting on this goddamn high horse if I didn't know how often it happens on this very site and its ridiculous, especially in the feminism and transgender threads.

Long story short. I'm sick of everyone's passive nature to let aggressive posts go unreported, here and on other sites. Gamers need to set a precedent to not only ignore users who lash out at developers and other gamers, but should be willing to report them.
tardcore said:
then I really have to start questioning YOUR sanity.
You should. I work full time, go to school full time, tutor on my days off and still volunteer my time here. But hey, I got my happy pills and vodka to keep me going, so I really don't care if you think I'm insane. Normal is overrated anyways.

tardcore said:
The fact I'm arguing this point with someone with a blue moderator name is seriously making me rethink bothering to patronize this website.
 

Gilhelmi

The One Who Protects
Oct 22, 2009
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Over 375 posts in. Do I want to step in this discussion? H*** No.

Do I need to though? Fine.

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed. I do not care if you liked my games or not. If you attack for me, I will defend myself. I have recorded all my calls, I have saved all my mail and Email. I have become a paranoid person, and my work is suffering. F*** you, I am quitting."

*read: calm but with slight anger, well controlled* That is right, I would not become a developer now. I was thinking about it, but I do not like the persistent feelings of paranoia.

No one in their right mind should go into the video-game industry right now. The Second Great Collapse is upon us, but this time it is not the industry that will cause it. The blame will lay solely on those that threatened and harassed all the talent out of this industry.
 

Cipher2391

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May 20, 2013
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Jim if your reading this I want to let you know that I think its about time somebody sadly had to say 'Fuck off and stop acting like twits' without negotiating a middle ground. The problem is the same people will probably take this as another minor victory for whatever sake and fall on deaf ears. great video though, kept up the good work.
 

wulf3n

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maddawg IAJI said:
Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that.
It's up to the person being insulted to raise an issue if they feel offended not everyone who witnesses it. If the person being targeted didn't find it offensive why should the other party be punished?

How can an observer know if it's not friendly banter, just without the context that may have been established by the two parties in another thread? If I flagged every post I deemed to have the potential for causing insult I'd be flagging every other post, and probably get punished for wasting the admins time.
 

Miroluck

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Jun 5, 2013
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Saltyk said:
~Hepler did not quit BECAUSE of the threats. Even Jim said that in the video. So what you are stating that I took away from the video (amazing that you know what I took away from the video better than I do) is untrue.
That's what she says. Doesn't make it true. It's as if someone got punched in a face completely unjustly and unfairly, and ran away yelling "no, that's totally not because I got punched, I just need to be somewhere!"

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.
There's only one answer to that.
Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.
 

WarpZone

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Mar 9, 2008
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LetalisK said:
Deadagent said:
I didn't know this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc] still had to be passed around.
No, you're right, it doesn't need to be passed around, but because it's trite bullshit from a pseudo-intellectual asswipe.
Hey, look at it this way. At least he doesn't threaten to murder anybody in the video.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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going 7 days without being a sick fuck? nope, not possible.


stupid people will be stupid and this show will never reach them. you are not wrong. but you achieved nothing.


Legion said:
He turned Phil Fish getting the same response he was throwing around all the time into a battle of being abused for years and quitting the industry.*
Fixed it for you.
If you want other people to treat you fairly, do so yourself. Fish didnt.



TheLazyGeek said:
It's not even that people have to grow up. There is never ever ever ever any reason you should threaten someone or their immediate family,
im quite sick of hearing this. Yes there is. There are multiple reasons why you would do that, both legal and moral ones. This was not one of them, true, but they exist.

maddawg IAJI said:
Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that. I wouldn't be sitting on this goddamn high horse if I didn't know how often it happens on this very site and its ridiculous, especially in the feminism and transgender threads.
Considering how far you go with your banning (not your personally, moderators on this site) as to give 7 days ban for saying "i think your trolling" as an insult, maybe its that 99 % of the people dont actually think its an insult and theres one individual who is like those crazy people who will get offended and try to sue you if you say you dont worship thier god.
not to mention that i noticed bias towards certain topics. you can get away with calling a pirate a scum that should burn in hell but god forbid you tell the same to, say, a scientist category. This is especially true in topics about piracy and gun control, which dont come up that often anymore.
 

RicoADF

Welcome back Commander
Jun 2, 2009
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Retrograde said:
I've been told this and acknowledged it. Although I've also acknowledged that the words of the video and the timing of the video tell slightly different stories. I bet if you googled something relevant to this you'd see a whole bunch of articles, including this video, calling for a stop to, saying it's causing dammage, saying we're a load of shits and we need to weed out the 'toxic' among us.

But my question, and my point really, misled as I was by Jim starting this video like so many others and not going the usual route(which is his fault, not mine. It's not my problem if he's creating stuff that sends a very consistent message and has a first impression that grates with people.), is that if this has been a problem for ages, why is it NOW that people are going meltdown?

Apparently, it's nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that this is a notable female to take this shit in an otherwise male collective. It's not in any way a reflection of past issues where people like Sterling won't say a fucking word while it's 'just men' getting their lives threatened over petty shit and then goes all heroic and "Fuck You" when 'the line is crossed' and a, well, victim happens.

I'm just full of shit and it's a massive coincidence apparently.
I definitely see where your coming from and agree that society is very much sexist against men, it turns a blind eye to men being bullied and abused but will jump to the defence of a women.

However, Jim did jump to the defence of Phil Fish and spoke about this topic to some degree before this incident came along, it was a quick one made as a fill in, which you can find here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7831-Go-Fish

This one is basically him doing a full episode on the topic and expanded into what he thinks of people who do this (where as the other was explaining what it's like from their point of view) now that another incident has happened, it just happens to be a woman this time.
 

K12

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Dec 28, 2012
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Retrograde said:
K12 said:
Maybe he's satirically demonstrating the point that people will go out of their way to rationalise their actions? Condemning people for "only getting offended because it's a woman" seems to be a fairly common way of justifying the actions of the people who threatened Hepler. It's also completely false, as there was a strong reaction to the Vanderbeek/CoD death threats. Jim even did a special show dealing with the Phil Fish debacle, but screw reality, right? We have a talking point to maintain!
Hmm, a video about a culture of men taking piles and piles of shit until their absolute breaking point only to be told they need to grow up when eventually bucking which he only did (impromptu) because loads of people asked him to(apperntly) and he clearly had a very personal stake in the matter, vs "Fuck You. This needs to be ripped out you sacks of shit, right now, FUCK YOU."

He didn't even stand up for himself or a man he liked with the kind of vitriol he put out in this video today. But you're right, that's probably completely unconnected to anything.
Well done for quoting me without actually using my words.

I find it amazing how desperate people are to be seen as victims. It is pretty obvious that opinions develop over time and that a vitriolic response like this one is more likely (and justified) with successive atrocities. Most of his examples in this video were talking about men having horrible threats.

If a similarly egregious threat which gains similar notoriety for similarly spurious reasons happens in the future against a guy and Jim takes a different stance then maybe you'll have a point worth making. Right now you're just sounding pathetic.
 

Dwarfman

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Hey Jim! Great episode. This is an issue that needs to be addressed, and indeed across all parts of social media, not just the gaming industry.

Just as an example the news today talked about two sportsmen whose families received threats on twitter because the players wanted to transfer from their clubs to be with them - one is the father of two daughters and wants to be closer to his family, the other has a father with terminal illness. The topic is debatable in it's own right, but when complete fuckwits get up and mindlessly threaten small children and a sick old man because 'their' players aren't showing them loyalty, any hope for a reasonable solution may as well go flying.

One wonders if these people use their brains when they go out of their way to attack and bully people this way.

Once again, great episode and thank God for you.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Strazdas said:
Legion said:
He turned Phil Fish getting the same response he was throwing around all the time into a battle of being abused for years and quitting the industry.*
Fixed it for you.
If you want other people to treat you fairly, do so yourself. Fish didnt.
I was not commenting on whether Fish deserved it or not. I was purely responding to the claim that Jim only did this episode because it was a woman who was being harassed. The fact that Jim did a very similar episode in regards to Fish shows that gender was not the motivation.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Legion said:
Strazdas said:
Legion said:
He turned Phil Fish getting the same response he was throwing around all the time into a battle of being abused for years and quitting the industry.*
Fixed it for you.
If you want other people to treat you fairly, do so yourself. Fish didnt.
I was not commenting on whether Fish deserved it or not. I was purely responding to the claim that Jim only did this episode because it was a woman who was being harassed. The fact that Jim did a very similar episode in regards to Fish shows that gender was not the motivation.
Fair enough. i went on a tangent there without needing to do so.
 

likalaruku

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Nov 29, 2008
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Retrograde said:
A woman is threatened on the internet in a grossly disproportionate manner. I was wondering when we'd have a brouhaha about how some stupid people doing stupid people shit and one/some woman/women taking it all too seriously means that gaming is sexist and we're sexist.

And in case you're wondering, no I didn't watch past the first minute or so, there really isn't a need to at this point.

Lady Victim, evil sexists, misogyny, gaming needs to change, THE ISSUE, etc.
You missed the ball entirely: the video was about shaming young troll gamers for their nerdrage, hypocrisy, & sense of entitlement. Gender isn't brought up even once.