Jimquisition: Innovation - Gaming's Snake Oil

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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Quellist said:
canadamus_prime said:
I'm reminded of the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Incidentally you know what JRPG battle system I really liked? The one from the Star Ocean games.
Just curious, which ones? i enjoyed 1 and 2, utterly adored the battle system of Till the end of Time, but hated with a Passion the battle system (and just about everything else) of Last Hope.
Well I've only played 'Till End of Time, Last Hope, and the PSP remake of 1, First Departure I think it was called. The one I remember the most fondly is 'Till End of Time.
 

Bat Vader

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The battle system in Final Fantasy 13 and the how linear it was is what killed the game for me. I played it for about 7 or 8 hours and I just ended up hating it. I don't understand why Square-Enix tried to innovate the battle system. In my opinion Final Fantasy 13 would have been great if it used Kingdom Hearts combat system. If it had that I would have stayed with the game more and pry finished it.
 

Mikodite

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arigomi said:
I disagree with the idea that an RPG's greatest strength is the story. Almost every video game genre these days at least attempts to provide a compelling story. Many have even appropriated RPG elements such levelinuig up. If every other game on the shelf promises to provide a great narrative, RPGs need to stand out with their unique mechanics.

Whether or not certain changes are considered innovative or gimmicky can be very subjective. Some didn't like the motion controls of Skyward Sword while other did.

Using ideas established in other games can be risky. A game can get lost in "me too" syndrome and become forgettable.
That really got to me. I mean, the reason JRPGs were story-driven had more to do with the way the Japanese language was structured, meaning that those games could get away with having more text in them than a western game, and the menu-driven combat was mimicking table-top roleplaying conventions.

However, as the technology marched on, the western games could start telling more complicated stories. Meaning that these games would be capable of being as narrative-driven as a JRPG. Couple this with the basic fact that menu-driven combat was never fun in the first place, and now the JRPG genre is having some growing pains.

Especially sense there is a lot of people complaining that if they simply want a story they would read a book or watch a movie, and not want to simply mash the A button ad nauseous and tolerate encounters that pop up a bunch of times to get more of the story (that, frankly, especially in later installments of FF games, were not worth that level of effort).

Because of this problem, JRPG developers had to innovate to save the genre. Now, I would like to know how FFXIII fucked up their combat engine when I remember seeing a similar one in Tales of Symphonia that actually worked. Alas, some of the innovations involved swapping the menu screens with something else (like in Tales of Symphonia using beat-em-up brawler mechanics in place of menu-screens), while others simply dressed up the menus and tweaked them so they were less annoying (like in Chrono Trigger). There is a plethora of ways to do this, and some of them will fail, in which case it was not innovative - it was a failed experiment.

However, it is not innovation for the sake of innovation.
 

wulf3n

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sageoftruth said:
just as long as it's not a free pass.
Is that really a thing though? Now I don't really read/watch too many reviews, So take my argument for the ill-informed statement it is, but I've never really seen any reviewer ignore a games flaws just because it was trying something new.

Sure most are more lenient, I am too, but that's because they're trying something that's never been done before, it would a miracle to get it right first go, whereas a game that doesn't try anything new has no excuse for being mediocre.

Taking the Mirrors Edge example, most reviews I read pointed out the clunky controls, issues with platforming from a First-Person perspective, and the oddity of including player usable guns, some rating it higher because of the unique experience it provided.

@OP
With Lost Odyssey that seemed like more of an issue with the subjective nature of narrative, with the complaint of "Lack of innovation" being the reviewers inability to properly explain their argument. If you like the narrative to Lost Odyssey, the turn-based combat, was as it has always been, a means to an end. If you didn't like the narrative, you were stuck "playing" the same dated combat system that has been done many times before, and there's nothing really there for you.
 

Redd the Sock

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The game I found innovative for it's time: ET for the atari. It was a fully unique experience the likes of which had rarely been seen, and if that doesn't tell you innovation isn't always good, I don't know what will.

I like innovation, don't get me wrong, but, yes, there are those that cry out for it too much for no other reason than they're bored, or worse, they don't like the games being made, and try to bury a temper tantrum about how they aren't being catered to under the guise of saying the industry needs to innovate or perish. Innovation only works when trying to answer "can I do" not "I must do".
 

Magmarock

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Interesting view point on Singularity, but what is your opinion on Wolfenstain. It borrowed a lot of ideas too but was it good?
 

daxterx2005

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you said "on the flip side" when a dude got stabbed and flipped over some dudes head.
That was boss.
 

theultimateend

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alphamalet said:
Jim,

I don't think many people are on the other side of this issue.

Innovation for the sake of it is bad. It will usually lead to something frivolous that is not properly implemented within the system it exists.
Doing the same thing over and over is bad.
Finding a good balance between the two to keep something fresh yet familiar is usually good.

If people praised innovation for the sake of it, like you postulate in this video, then gamers everywhere would have praised the Wii for its "innovative" controls. That obviously didn't happen.

This sort of seemed like a non-issue to make a video out of.
Uh...

I've heard this brought up so many times on these forums that its almost become a meme.

But anecdote for anecdote I suppose.

Atmos Duality said:
II) "Necessity is the mother of invention", isn't always true either.
There were points in human history where invention was considered frivolous, childish or even foolish. (China lost its position as a world superpower for nearly 400 years because of exactly that).
With the rise of international commerce this kind of technology was anything but frivolous. Much of the parts that aren't directly necessary for global business were made because of a need in the military.
 

cdemares

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I want to thank you so much, just because I love Singularity. I keep recommending Singularity, but it's everybody's 50th choice or something. Remember the endings? Or the time bubbles and slow-mo gun? Hell yeah! I was already a sucker for time-travel, but this is time-travel plus god-like powers.
 

anonymity88

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Gizmo1990 said:
Hard to disagree with all that. Also really nice to see some love for Lost Odyssey. I love that game, to me it is the only good Jrpg to come out this gen and as a FF fan it was nice to enjoy a Jrpg for a change as I am of the opinion that each FF after X has been the gaming equivalent of Dog shit.
I still think XII is excellent and prefer it to X. As for this gen, Lost Odyssey is a truly awesome JRPG and I'm sad that I missed it when it first came out, I'm even sadder that I have to start the game from scratch because some bastard stole my old xbox which meant bye bye saves. -_-
 

romxxii

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alphamalet said:
Jim,

I don't think many people are on the other side of this issue.
Does this mean we can start calling Mr. Sterling "Jim, the Needlessly Defiant"?
 

Mr C

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jehk said:
How do you feel about the Persona series? Looking at the evolution of Persona 3 to Persona 4 to Persona 3 Portable to Persona 4 Golden is a great example of the balance alphamalet is talking about.

Also, I think I'm the only person who loved Mirror's Edge.
I came to this thread just to comment on that. I also loved Mirror's Edge. The game went 'indoors' too often, but when it let you outside it was one heck of an experience. Great re-playability, aceing a level feels so damn good.

EDIT: pro's for love for Lost Odyssey, one heck of a game. If FF13 disappointed you, check it out. It's soul is real FF.
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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I don't think Jim was criticizing Mirror's Edge. He was criticizing the criticism of criticism of Mirror's Edge

and..

I think my brain just exploded.
 

duck-man

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Mar 17, 2009
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Mirror's Edge is an interesting sort of a case. I wouldn't say it's a Better game just for being innovative, nor that it makes its flaws excusable. It's more that I can't get the experience anywhere else and so I'm more willing to play through it despite the flaws.

I don't think I'd be so willing to play through a sub-par fps as I would a sub-par 'innovative' or 'unique' game.
Of course, I'd want to know exactly what those innovations are first, and how well they're done...
 

Nouw

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Anyone else notice the reverse-looping of the music near the end when Jim was talking?
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Innovation - Gaming's Snake Oil

There's nothing wrong with a game that innovates. There's everything wrong with a game that goes out of its way to innovate without reason.
Jim's entire point could be stated in one minute or less. Hell, the above summary encapsulates 99% of the argument in two sentences. Why did the same thing have to be repeated over and over and over again to pad it out to 7 minutes?
 

Holythirteen

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"waggle-based games whose motion gestures are actually less convenient and nowhere near as quick as pressing a goddamn button"

Odd how he was praising Zelda games just a minute before that, I guess he liked Skyward Sword's waggle-waving?