Myst Uru Live is a better art game than all of those, and that's the least favored of the series.
Jimquisition: Lazy, Boring, Ordinary, Art Games
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Hi, "Him Over There"--it is lovely having this conversation with you. I just want to put that out there up front.
But some people do appreciate being sent through an emotional wringer. I'm one of those people. Atonal music? Bring it on. A film where afterwards I can barely breathe I'm so upset? Awesome. A video game where I'm so disturbed I question if I exist? That's the best!
Is it for everyone? Not at all. It is boring for some people? Certainly. Can I do it everyday? No way. I have to be in the right space...but it is something that I really like. And it is so rarely attempted...especially in video games that still are mostly caught up in the idea that they need to be entertaining and that entertainment involves in an ending that makes you feel okay...or if you feel sad, not too sad. And I enjoy those games too...but sometimes I want a real downer ending. Or an ending that makes me think and question. The Path I thought was brilliant. I could only play one girl a session and then I had to wait a week between sessions, because it was pretty overwhelming...but I enjoy that. I spent days going back to Trauma in my head wondering about the woman in the car accident. For me (and I suppose people who are like me) the level of interaction in those games is not only higher, but it lingers with me long after the game is done. I really loved playing Prince of Persia...but once it was over, it was over in my mind as well...it didn't make me think about the world differently...or games differently...or myself differently...it didn't cause me to have personal, existential interaction. Some art games and some mainstream games, on the other hand, have done that to me.
Games like that aren't always "fun" in the traditional sense. They aren't exactly "entertainment"--but there is a place for tragedy and disturbing and ugly. There is a place for that work of art that you can barely look at/listen to because it is so disturbing. Does everyone have to play it or like it? No. Can a creator try to go for that and then fail to achieve that? Yes. Is Dear Esther a failure to achieve its end? No idea, I haven't played it. But there is a place for video games like Dear Esther, et al. It will probably always be a small place...but I'm glad they are there.
Sometimes I want to see the Captain America movie, and sometimes I want to see Precious. No one says, Precious isn't a move...or Waiting for Godot isn't a play...none of my Musicology colleagues would say atonal music by say...Ruth Crawford Seeger isn't music...so Dear Esther is still a video game...just one for people who like that sort of thing...which is definitely not everyone.
This is the thing I want to say about this. I think that video games can leave the player feeling negative is why video games are better at that sort of dramatic effect than film is--and that sort of effect is what Aristotle called catharsis. You didn't like Heavy Rain because it made you legitimately sad, it left you feeling negative. You didn't like that. I would *love* that. There is only one reason I'm sad I don't have a PS3, and it is Heavy Rain. I really appreciate media (film, television, video games, music) that makes me feel like I've been punched in the gut. That make me feel legitimately sad or disturbed. If it haunts my mind and keeps me up thinking about it for days...that is something I value highly--because it gives me catharsis. One of my two favorite films are Requiem For a Dream and Last Exit To Brooklyn. Now, I have friends who just can't watch those films...because they don't enjoy being wrecked by a film. They don't find it stimulating....they don't get catharsis from them. So they don't watch them. And I think that is fine.him over there said:
But some people do appreciate being sent through an emotional wringer. I'm one of those people. Atonal music? Bring it on. A film where afterwards I can barely breathe I'm so upset? Awesome. A video game where I'm so disturbed I question if I exist? That's the best!
Is it for everyone? Not at all. It is boring for some people? Certainly. Can I do it everyday? No way. I have to be in the right space...but it is something that I really like. And it is so rarely attempted...especially in video games that still are mostly caught up in the idea that they need to be entertaining and that entertainment involves in an ending that makes you feel okay...or if you feel sad, not too sad. And I enjoy those games too...but sometimes I want a real downer ending. Or an ending that makes me think and question. The Path I thought was brilliant. I could only play one girl a session and then I had to wait a week between sessions, because it was pretty overwhelming...but I enjoy that. I spent days going back to Trauma in my head wondering about the woman in the car accident. For me (and I suppose people who are like me) the level of interaction in those games is not only higher, but it lingers with me long after the game is done. I really loved playing Prince of Persia...but once it was over, it was over in my mind as well...it didn't make me think about the world differently...or games differently...or myself differently...it didn't cause me to have personal, existential interaction. Some art games and some mainstream games, on the other hand, have done that to me.
Games like that aren't always "fun" in the traditional sense. They aren't exactly "entertainment"--but there is a place for tragedy and disturbing and ugly. There is a place for that work of art that you can barely look at/listen to because it is so disturbing. Does everyone have to play it or like it? No. Can a creator try to go for that and then fail to achieve that? Yes. Is Dear Esther a failure to achieve its end? No idea, I haven't played it. But there is a place for video games like Dear Esther, et al. It will probably always be a small place...but I'm glad they are there.
Sometimes I want to see the Captain America movie, and sometimes I want to see Precious. No one says, Precious isn't a move...or Waiting for Godot isn't a play...none of my Musicology colleagues would say atonal music by say...Ruth Crawford Seeger isn't music...so Dear Esther is still a video game...just one for people who like that sort of thing...which is definitely not everyone.
Oh no I wasn't saying that I don't want to be put through an emotional wringer as you call it, One of my all time favourite films is grave of the fire flies which I reference in my post. In fact I think my second point (in the last paragraph) put this thought better than the first one did. Usually when you see a film or read a book that is sad you come out not enjoying but appreciating it, disturbed but in a good way y'know? I'm saying that since you have to actually play and progress through the game rather than experience it passively it actually makes you feel like crap legitimately, not just while you're involved with the medium.trooper6 said:
My other comparison about a game that is no fun I feel made some more sense, it's hard to craft a story dealing with the theme of something like routine or the futility of the rat race or something similar because you experience it first hand and not while involded yet detached, the game is literally a chore to get through, not stimulating or interesting to watch or read or listen to like other mediums where you come off it wondering about things intrinsically.
The way I could best put it is like I said before, instead of a painting that is unpleasant on an emotional level to look at because of the subject matter it is physically unpleasant and painful to look at because of how gaudy and ugly it is.
I'm really just rambling now and what I said probably doesn't make sense but I hope I sort of got my point across.
Journey looks awesome, might have to pick that up when I make my new PC this summer. Thank god for Jim.
The #1 priority for me when choosing a videogame is how much it integrates Jim Sterling into my world.
Sure, get into a piece of art and expect it to be a video game like Mortal Kombat and you won't be pleased.
This is news?
This is news?
Generally I agree with a lot of issues Jim has mentioned in the past, and although I haven't played any of the games Jim mentioned here, I find this to be pretty much a 'non-issue'. I mean, if these games are selling, and there are people out there enjoying them, really, who gives a damn? I'm not one to get in the way of other people's fun. If you don't like them, or think they are getting sale, that's our wonderful right as a consumer to ignore them. It's kind of evident from people posting here that these games still have a solid fan base.
It's a bit like the whole family or friends sitting around a table, all on their phones & gadgets instead of talking to each other. Everybody likes to get all righteous about how stupid they look and how screwed up modern tech has made us. But if that's what they like, wtf do I care?
It's a bit like the whole family or friends sitting around a table, all on their phones & gadgets instead of talking to each other. Everybody likes to get all righteous about how stupid they look and how screwed up modern tech has made us. But if that's what they like, wtf do I care?
People get concerned of the "direction things are heading", like how shooter's are now stale because of how things are. Unfortunately, although I still like health bars and leaning more than cover based health regen, that's the direction they've taken - people still buy them.
I was also saddened by the demise of the Sierra Quest game era, I found those to be very artistic, poetic, interactive, and for the first time in a while I feel appropriate use for this word: Epic. Those were like adventures in beautifully crafted worlds, but with a great deal of interaction - as good as any fairy tale read to me as a child. But adventure games themselves have also taken a very different steer, not much you can do about it.
I was also saddened by the demise of the Sierra Quest game era, I found those to be very artistic, poetic, interactive, and for the first time in a while I feel appropriate use for this word: Epic. Those were like adventures in beautifully crafted worlds, but with a great deal of interaction - as good as any fairy tale read to me as a child. But adventure games themselves have also taken a very different steer, not much you can do about it.
"Sheep-leading" actually makes a lot of sense, as a concept.
I too in games, want to get involved, excited, in the world and entertained. I've mostly avoided art games, because they look pretty fucking boring. I also do not play call of duty.
I too in games, want to get involved, excited, in the world and entertained. I've mostly avoided art games, because they look pretty fucking boring. I also do not play call of duty.
...And now that I think about it, by your logic, Dark Souls is probably one of the most arty games ever made. Very little contact with other people, and only for fleeting moments as you fight over an important resource or team up against a tough enemy. And you do get to do stuff - at least, fighting monsters and dodging traps is more than just walking in a straight line.
And it's definitely a lot longer than Braid, even if you don't die much.
And it's definitely a lot longer than Braid, even if you don't die much.
Right...but some people like to be make to feel like crap legitimately, not just while you're involved in the medium. The thing I value about video games is the way in which implicates the player in a more active way--both for positive and negative things. Well, that and the fact that I can have really long form narratives that you just can't get in film.him over there said:
I, too, dislikes games that are a chore to get through, games that are not stimulating or interesting...but for me the genre that does that for me is the Fighting Game genre. Yet I wouldn't say that the fighting genre is inherently lazy, boring, or ordinary. It just doesn't make me excited. I like turn based historical strategy games like Europa Universalis...but I'm sure for many people that game is boring and just a grind. Heck some folks love the grind of World of Warcraft. My only point is that this is subjective...wait...I'll say this point after your next point...him over there said:
One person's gaudy and ugly is another person's vibrant and fabulous. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.him over there said:
quote="him over there" post="6.353919.14055946"]I'm really just rambling now and what I said probably doesn't make sense but I hope I sort of got my point across.[/quote]
You're all good! I see your point. I also don't like boring games. I just don't find art games boring. I find Fighting Games boring. I haven't been all that excited about most of the racing games I've played either...though I did really enjoy Need For Speed 2: Hot Pursuit...but that has been the only one. And...I am pretty bored by most sports games...especially if I don't follow the sport. But those just don't push my personally buttons in the right way. There is nothing inherently bad about the genre.
Dang this is the game I was thinking of when I watched this vid, thanks for digging it up!Moeez said:Loved [http://www.alexanderocias.com/loved.php]
, and
Jim's a bit of an idiot on this one. He forgets that "interactive" doesn't mean "doing stuff". What he calls "looking around" *is* interacting, provided the player is sensitive and intelligent enough to respond to the environment. Players who just like to kill, throw, climb, and touch stuff are the ones who are stopping games from "moving forward", because they find fulfilment only in the actions of their avatar and its progression in the plot. No Jim, Dear Esther and The Path are not like books - they are very different, and this is what you have not understood. Next time spend some more time thinking before throwing out your crude and undeveloped opinions.
I would agree with this in a general sense if I thought any one person had the authority to claim what games are and aren't. Which I don't. I myself find JRPGs uninvolving, but I'm not overbearing enough to deny them the status of "game". People like them! People enjoy the way they tell a story.
And I personally enjoyed the way Dear Esther told its story, lack of "interactivity" and all. Perhaps we're all too mired in incessant combat gameplay to realize that "walking around and looking at stuff" is a type of interactivity, albeit more passive and contemplative than what we're used to. And I really resent the comparison to movies - as if there is NO player agency whatsoever in Dear Esther.
The book comparison is more accurate - Dear Esther proceeds at the player's pace, and requires participation and imagination to make sense of the story. And there is a big difference between claiming that something just isn't your thing and wanting to coerce it into being your thing, regardless of whether it suits the format or not.
And I personally enjoyed the way Dear Esther told its story, lack of "interactivity" and all. Perhaps we're all too mired in incessant combat gameplay to realize that "walking around and looking at stuff" is a type of interactivity, albeit more passive and contemplative than what we're used to. And I really resent the comparison to movies - as if there is NO player agency whatsoever in Dear Esther.
The book comparison is more accurate - Dear Esther proceeds at the player's pace, and requires participation and imagination to make sense of the story. And there is a big difference between claiming that something just isn't your thing and wanting to coerce it into being your thing, regardless of whether it suits the format or not.
Two words: "Dinner Date."
A game so pretentious is suggests which kind of wine to drink with it. I played through about three times before I realized that the experience changes only slightly depending on what you do. I have a feeling that if you let it be, not only would it continue play without you there, it would make no difference to events. That's how unimportant the role of the player is in that game.
http://stoutgames.com/innerDate
A game so pretentious is suggests which kind of wine to drink with it. I played through about three times before I realized that the experience changes only slightly depending on what you do. I have a feeling that if you let it be, not only would it continue play without you there, it would make no difference to events. That's how unimportant the role of the player is in that game.
http://stoutgames.com/
innerDate