Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3 And The Case For A Gay Shepard

[gyroscopeboy]

Why would you not want Shepard to fuck guys, it only make him more pimp.

Ill just leave this here

"(as if) they're not tough, they FUCK MEN...thats HARDLY gay" - Steve Hughes


Pimp as fuck bro

 

[arcnologia]

I'm a straight guy and have no problems with homosexuals or bisexuals. My only gripe is that if Bioware is going to include homosexual romances in the game it needs to be with a new character(s), I'd be more inclined to accept my male Shepard getting it on with another male crew member if that crew member's sexual attraction to me was nonexistent, Mordin not wanting to hook up with my hot Katy Shepard, or their sexual preferences were already established in the past. And yes I know about the gay Ashely and Kaiden hidden content, in which case had this been in the final make of the game Kaiden would have finally been saved.

 

[The Random One]

Yeah, by and large I agree. (And last week's entry required clarification for some people? Really? REALLY?!)

Would like to mention a couple of things, though.

It appears that human bisexuality, at least among men, isn't all that common. The studies and surveys cited by Wikipedia rate it as roughly between 2 and 6 percent.

I don't actually know the specifics of how Bioware intends to handle gay or bisexual relationships in ME3, nor, of course, do I have any idea how they will handle the issue in the future. But it has to be said that having every significant human male character you interact with be bisexual to give options is just lazy writing. (Or every female, for that matter, though it stretches credibility slightly less.) I'm perfectly willing to believe that the Xyrg'kkk'l are all culturally bisexual, or that elves have much higher rates of bisexuality, or whatever. I'm even willing to believe that one or two human characters (including the player) are bisexual. But until bisexuality becomes a requirement for entry into the Alliance military, storytelling and character should have a priority over being able to re-use dialogue and textures for sex scenes.

For that matter, if we really want to be inclusive, "we need homosexual options for the PC" shouldn't just mean a couple of people who swing both ways; it's perfectly reasonable, and as far as I know untouched in Bioware's oeuvre, that some NPCs just be homosexual. It would actually be more interesting to my mind to have your strangely magnetic PC be shot down once in a while because your engineering officer just doesn't swing that way.

Other than that, as long as my companions pay attention when I say "no, not interested, thanks", I'm happy to applaud Bioware taking their excellent stories in whatever direction their writers see fit to take them.

Only I'm not going to be playing them because Origin is the devil. Oh well...

I was scrolling down the comments and this one pretty much sums up what I think. It looks like Bioware tried jumping on the bus late on this one, because DA2 had the sex options they really wanted to put on a game but everyone hated DA2 so they didn't have a chance to show it off. (Which can't be true, as for a game that everyone hated, everyone also seems to be familiar with it, so everyone played it. I'm not saying what it is, just what it looks like.) I mean, the fact that homosexual options were only added at the eleventh hour means that I can be wondering just why exactly Shepard didn't hook up with Garrus on the previous game if they both swung that way and I did his sidequest and everything.

But, of course, that's for people with male gay Shepards to worry about. My Shepard is female and she's been with Liara since the first game. In my headcanon she doesn't think she's gay and thinks it's OK because the Asari are genderless aliens, just like the loud-mouthed idiots lambasting the game. Will she realize she's lying to herself? Tune in to find out.

 

[Therumancer]

Two things, which I'm repeating here:

1: The difference between the genders involved in a relationship makes a huge difference to whether the audience can relate to a romance. We must agree with that, because if we don't then you must think that the entire subject is meaningless anyway. Thus homosexuality is a bigger difference than personal turn-ons or fetishes which are less about relating to the characters and more about getting off on it, which you constantly presume is the reason for the romance being there in the first place.

---​

2: I don't remember there ever being huge drives for Bioware to put gay romance options into Mass Effect. Certainly not ones crawling all over the Escapist like the people saying that the options should be gone now. In fact, it's been demonstrated again and again that they were going to put them into the first game before people even cared about the series at all, but for whatever reason, couldn't. Therefore, there was no minority ever forcing them to put it into the game, but plenty of people are trying to force them not to.

I mean, I've never seen a large group demanding a gay romance in Mass Effect outside of the Bioware forums, which let's be honest, don't count. Maybe a few people did, yeah, but not enough for you to argue that the entire homosexual community has been up in arms and entitled about it.

Actually, I have never seen anything remotely implying that was supposed to be a gay, male romance option in Mass Effect. Quite the opposite, with Bioware claiming they had no plans for one.

As far as the entire homosexual community being up in arms, I think your trying to be intentionally obtuse. Bioware's steadfast refusal to put homosexuals into everything, and claims that there would not be any male, gay options in ToR have had people up in arms for a while now. Mass Effect simply being one of the current battlegrounds accross the spectrum of Bioware titles.

Your simply seeing a reaction to a reaction, you had homosexuals and their supporters come out in support of the demand that gay men be inserted into games irregardless of the desires of the writers, and in response you've had those who are anti-gay or oppose this for other reasons which may or may not overlap with an anti-gay stance they also have, also rally, leading to a battleground. Given that on the matter of homosexuality the community in nations like the US is divided almost 50-50 you have to expect it to get pretty loud.

As far as the point about sexual deviations, your simply put wrong. Sexual arousal is sexual arousal, it, like love, is a chemical reaction. We don't understand all of the mechanics behind it, but we know enough to understand why things like castration work on both humans and animals.

In the end someone into the opposite gender, their own gender, and aroused by something like feces, are experiencing the exact same thing... a chemical reaction in the same exact systems. Normal sexual behavior is between members of opposite genders, intended to help propagate the species, and also encourage the genders to work together for their own survival (ie aside from childbirth, sex gives men a reason to want to stay with and protect the weaker gender and so on). Like nearly any biological system it can malfunction for a wide variety of reasons, some starting from birth, others a side effect of later occurances. Harmless or not, anyone who is interested in anything besides normal man/woman relations is a sexual deviant, and there is nothing inherantly wrong with that in of itself. For everyone their own sexual arousal is a natural and healthy seeming part of who they are, because their personality is largely built around their biological signals and imperitives. To someone who isn't wired for a sexual deviation however there is anything from a lack of interest, to disgust, because they just don't have the chemical reactions and built up mentality in support of it. A person who is homosexual, and someone who is into say beastiality, scat, or any one of thousands of other of things are both exactly the same in being sexual deviants whose biology causes them to be attracted to something other than the norm.

Saying that homosexuals are somehow elevated above other sexual deviants is inherantly wrong, they are EXACTLY the same thing, just aroused by a differant abnormal trigger. Once you start saying homosexuals are entitled to representation, the same exact arguement can be made for ANY deviant using the same exact logic. It doesn't seem like an issue now, because nobody is using those arguements, but given time they will come, and with one deviation established as being accepted irregardless of the mainstream, it becomes increasingly difficult to say that others need to be singled out and excluded.

Of course none of this paticularly mattered, everything else I've said in other threads aside, this all comes down to the issue of forced inclusion. Basically saying that creators HAVE to include such people if they are going to include sex or relationships at all, regardless of their original vision or intent. That's simply another face of the corperate mentality that destroys every creative medium it comes into. Right here people who think they are being progressive or accepting are feeding the very same machine they have probably spent a lot of time and energy complaining about.

As I said in an earlier message, this is probably going to come back to bite Jim Sterling in the pants when at some point he claims political correctness, or forced inclusion in the media, has ruined something. The same arguement about entitlement can be used by any of the various gorups that have forced their way into creative works over a long period of time.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Well, that's what you get for using satire to bring a message to a broad audience.
Remember this "People.Are.Idiots.". The problem is, people who understand satire are usually intelligent people who are open-minded. But people who don't understand satire are usually people who aren't as intelligent and aren't as open-minded. So people who needed to get you message couldn't get it.

Also, I find it rather funny when people say "I'm straight, I'm not going to use the option".
So what? You're straight, what does that have to do with role playing. I'm gay, but I play as a straight, or female a lot. Role playing is the reason I like RPG games. I can be all that hings that I can't or don't want to be in real life. You can explore things that you wouldn't like IRL.

Do you want to be a mass murderer IRL? No? Me neither, but you can be in an RPG and enjoy it a lot. Same goes for gay relationships. Or bi, or Solarian x Krogan or whatever you want.

I'm not saying you must do that. I'm just saying that I find it funny how many people play RPG games but don't role play.

Once you start saying homosexuals are entitled to representation, the same exact arguement can be made for ANY deviant using the same exact logic.

If those other deviations aren't harming anyone, and both parties can give legal consent, then I don't see anything wrong with them asking for representations.

But bestiality can't come even close to homosexuality.
An animal can't give you consent to have sex with them. Neither can a baby or a dead body. An unconscious woman/man neither.

Also, attraction of a male to a female doesn't guaranty safety The truth is actually far, far, far from that. If that was the case, there wouldn't be rape cases. If one side is stronger, there is always the option of it forcing the sex. Males are usually stronger than females.

Just sayin' because you said heterosexuality helps.
My point is, homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality are neutral. They are neither bad nor good. It depends on the person. Just because you're straight doesn't mean you will protect a girl because you get potential sex. And just because you're gay doesn't mean you will got an rape every male that crosses your path.

Also, the word "normal" is a weak argument. It's definition changes trough time faster than any other word. Things that where normal 5 years ago aren't normal now and vice versa. And the word "natural" is even weaker because homosexuality is completely natural.
Humans are part of nature. Everything humans do is part of their nature. So everything humans do is natural. You couldn't do it if it wasn't part of your nature.

Also, almost every species shows signs of homosexual behavior. Either nature isn't natural, or...

 

[mattttherman3]

The best part of this video is that my brightness is at 100% and I couldn't see that guys face, the one with shepard.

Wow, just read the posts above me, these debates are best left for political debates, not the escapist's forums, and I mean both sides, there is really no point in trying to change someone's mind whether they support homosexuality or are homophobic, in most cases they are just taught that belief system from a very young age. If your trying to get the word out there, a gaming website really isn't the place. I also believe that most people who complain about it are just looking for something to complain about, OH NO GARRUS HIT ON ME WTFGFCH0CGHRC

 

[kurupt87]

snip

While I wouldn't ever bring up the paedo argument defence of gay exclusion, the fact that it's illegal carries little water with me. BDSM/S&M is illegal in the UK, jail time illegal. What they say about sex can't entirely be relied upon.

 

[NaramSuen]

People seriously trotted out the whole homosexuality=paedophilia argument!?! What cave did these people crawl out of?

I was able to grasp the subtlety of your previous video, but I guess some people just need to be smacked in the head with a huge purple dildo. Smack away Jim, smack away.

 

[mattttherman3]

Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

That said excuses debunked in this video are pathetic indeed.
And pedophilia and homosexuality are indeed vastly different things. That said, both are cases of mental disorder but vastly different ones.

Your personal opinion is based on unfounded medical and scientific facts; normal you say? Beating your wife in the 40's was normal, or perhaps I should go back? The romans and the greek were pretty homosexual and that was normal. Saying, I will give my opinion does not excent you of following the rules, this is not an opinion, this a homophobic comment and it is terrible.

OP: I don't really think Bioware are open and mature to be quite honest, let me give you 2 clear examples. First, you can go Lesbian in Mass Effect 1 and 2 but not gay. Also, the demo

Spoiler: Spoilered just in case

Wrex refers to the queen as "Women". First of all, SEXIST? ANYONE? Also this is inconsistent. For fucks sake! Wrex has always wanted to save the Krogan, this could be one of the last fertile females, and Wrex is the first one to want to fight the genophage, he would have utmost respect for this female, it may be his race's last hope.

So yeah, open and mature, I don't think so Jim.

\You cannot possibly be that anal/pc about that wrex comment, thats even worse than homophobia...

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Two things, which I'm repeating here:

1: The difference between the genders involved in a relationship makes a huge difference to whether the audience can relate to a romance. We must agree with that, because if we don't then you must think that the entire subject is meaningless anyway. Thus homosexuality is a bigger difference than personal turn-ons or fetishes which are less about relating to the characters and more about getting off on it, which you constantly presume is the reason for the romance being there in the first place.

---​

2: I don't remember there ever being huge drives for Bioware to put gay romance options into Mass Effect. Certainly not ones crawling all over the Escapist like the people saying that the options should be gone now. In fact, it's been demonstrated again and again that they were going to put them into the first game before people even cared about the series at all, but for whatever reason, couldn't. Therefore, there was no minority ever forcing them to put it into the game, but plenty of people are trying to force them not to.

I mean, I've never seen a large group demanding a gay romance in Mass Effect outside of the Bioware forums, which let's be honest, don't count. Maybe a few people did, yeah, but not enough for you to argue that the entire homosexual community has been up in arms and entitled about it.

*snip*

And once again you have missed the point. This has nothing with sexual stimulation, if it did, Mass Effect would be the last place you'd be looking because of how simply unerotic the love scenes are. This is about a romance that players can relate to. Putting in other fetishes or sexual deviancies would just be titillation, as no one has ever failed to relate to a romance plot because of them not being there. Look, let's put it simply:

Things people say:

"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it is about a heterosexual couple and I am homosexual."
or
"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it is about a homosexual couple and I am heterosexual."

Things no-one has ever said ever:

"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it doesn't have enough extended foot-worship scenes."

If you don't agree that the difference in genders and sexuality influences how well someone can relate with the romance sub-plot, then it logically follows that you shouldn't care about it either.

---​

And there is plenty of evidence they intended to put homosexual relations into each of the games, namely unused voice recordings:




I know it's not much, but I think that them writing the dialogue and getting the voice actors in is a fair bit of effort for something they never planned to do. And them later saying it was never planned? That's what's known as covering their asses. But nooooo, it was all the work of the magical gays with their invisible campaign. Is it really so hard to believe that the writers wanted to do it too? I mean, if they hated it so much why did they give in? Even if the entirety of their gay user base boycotted the game if the option wasn't put in they'd lose, what? Four percent of their sales?

I have seen no evidence that there was a particularly organised drive to get male homosexuality included in any Mass Effect game, just the same old paranoid ramblings that talk about the 'gay agenda' like homosexuals are some sort of hive mind and obsessed cult rolled into one.

And for that matter, I don't elevate homosexuality above other sexual deviancies, in fact, I think it's a more significant difference than any of those. Which is why I realise it'd be hypocritical of me not to be as generally accepting of them as well.

 

[mike1921]

OP: I don't really think Bioware are open and mature to be quite honest, let me give you 2 clear examples. First, you can go Lesbian in Mass Effect 1 and 2 but not gay. Also, the demo

Spoiler: Spoilered just in case

Wrex refers to the queen as "Women". First of all, SEXIST? ANYONE? Also this is inconsistent. For fucks sake! Wrex has always wanted to save the Krogan, this could be one of the last fertile females, and Wrex is the first one to want to fight the genophage, he would have utmost respect for this female, it may be his race's last hope.

So yeah, open and mature, I don't think so Jim.

Spoiler

Why is bioware assumed to agree with Wrex and think his actions are right? Having a character do bigoted things (although I don't really get the bigot vibe from wrex) does not make the writer a bigot.

 

[Metalrocks]

amazing how stupid people are. pedophiles..... seriously????
im not fond of gay people but i dont have a problem with that in a game or in social life as long they dont try to seduce me. but seriously, comparing it with pedophiles....just amazing.

 

[Ometochtli]

Why does Shepard's sexuality matter? It does not affect cannon, considering that Shepard's entire character can be rebuilt and entirely remade in every sequel. You can change every other aspect of Shepherd, you pick his gender, body-type, and customize every other aspect of him. Why would sexuality suddenly ruin the cannon, when changing every other aspect of him does not.

 

[Zeckt]

Jim, my respect for you has literally skyrocketed. Anyone who even attempts to argue your pedophilia / gay point should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[easternflame]

Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

That said excuses debunked in this video are pathetic indeed.
And pedophilia and homosexuality are indeed vastly different things. That said, both are cases of mental disorder but vastly different ones.

Your personal opinion is based on unfounded medical and scientific facts; normal you say? Beating your wife in the 40's was normal, or perhaps I should go back? The romans and the greek were pretty homosexual and that was normal. Saying, I will give my opinion does not excent you of following the rules, this is not an opinion, this a homophobic comment and it is terrible.

OP: I don't really think Bioware are open and mature to be quite honest, let me give you 2 clear examples. First, you can go Lesbian in Mass Effect 1 and 2 but not gay. Also, the demo

Spoiler: Spoilered just in case

Wrex refers to the queen as "Women". First of all, SEXIST? ANYONE? Also this is inconsistent. For fucks sake! Wrex has always wanted to save the Krogan, this could be one of the last fertile females, and Wrex is the first one to want to fight the genophage, he would have utmost respect for this female, it may be his race's last hope.

So yeah, open and mature, I don't think so Jim.

\You cannot possibly be that anal/pc about that wrex comment, thats even worse than homophobia...

Really, worse than homophobia? I'm not even going fight you because it would be pointless on that comment.
HOWEVER, being Anal in these cases is important, if Shepard would have said it, it might have been better; Whoever wrote this contradicts the lore and story of Mass Effect and that is disgraceful, I'm sorry, I'm excited about Mass Effect 3, but one has to always stay objective. Besides, being anal wasn't my point, it was to express how bioware are not mature as they would like us to believe.

 

[easternflame]

OP: I don't really think Bioware are open and mature to be quite honest, let me give you 2 clear examples. First, you can go Lesbian in Mass Effect 1 and 2 but not gay. Also, the demo

Spoiler: Spoilered just in case

Wrex refers to the queen as "Women". First of all, SEXIST? ANYONE? Also this is inconsistent. For fucks sake! Wrex has always wanted to save the Krogan, this could be one of the last fertile females, and Wrex is the first one to want to fight the genophage, he would have utmost respect for this female, it may be his race's last hope.

So yeah, open and mature, I don't think so Jim.

Spoiler

Why is bioware assumed to agree with Wrex and think his actions are right? Having a character do bigoted things (although I don't really get the bigot vibe from wrex) does not make the writer a bigot.

It is not about biggotry, it about the inconsistency with the story and character. Remember in mass effect one where you had to kill Wrex (or convince him) because he wanted to save the facility for the survival of the species? He would have the utmost respect for the queen! why am I the only one to see this?!

 

[Therumancer]

Two things, which I'm repeating here:

1: The difference between the genders involved in a relationship makes a huge difference to whether the audience can relate to a romance. We must agree with that, because if we don't then you must think that the entire subject is meaningless anyway. Thus homosexuality is a bigger difference than personal turn-ons or fetishes which are less about relating to the characters and more about getting off on it, which you constantly presume is the reason for the romance being there in the first place.

---​

2: I don't remember there ever being huge drives for Bioware to put gay romance options into Mass Effect. Certainly not ones crawling all over the Escapist like the people saying that the options should be gone now. In fact, it's been demonstrated again and again that they were going to put them into the first game before people even cared about the series at all, but for whatever reason, couldn't. Therefore, there was no minority ever forcing them to put it into the game, but plenty of people are trying to force them not to.

I mean, I've never seen a large group demanding a gay romance in Mass Effect outside of the Bioware forums, which let's be honest, don't count. Maybe a few people did, yeah, but not enough for you to argue that the entire homosexual community has been up in arms and entitled about it.

*snip*

And once again you have missed the point. This has nothing with sexual stimulation, if it did, Mass Effect would be the last place you'd be looking because of how simply unerotic the love scenes are. This is about a romance that players can relate to. Putting in other fetishes or sexual deviancies would just be titillation, as no one has ever failed to relate to a romance plot because of them not being there. Look, let's put it simply:

Things people say:

"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it is about a heterosexual couple and I am homosexual."
or
"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it is about a homosexual couple and I am heterosexual."

Things no-one has ever said ever:

"This romance plot is well written, but I find it hard to relate to because it doesn't have enough extended foot-worship scenes."

If you don't agree that the difference in genders and sexuality influences how well someone can relate with the romance sub-plot, then it logically follows that you shouldn't care about it either.

---​

And there is plenty of evidence they intended to put homosexual relations into each of the games, namely unused voice recordings:




I know it's not much, but I think that them writing the dialogue and getting the voice actors in is a fair bit of effort for something they never planned to do. And them later saying it was never planned? That's what's known as covering their asses. But nooooo, it was all the work of the magical gays with their invisible campaign. Is it really so hard to believe that the writers wanted to do it too? I mean, if they hated it so much why did they give in? Even if the entirety of their gay user base boycotted the game if the option wasn't put in they'd lose, what? Four percent of their sales?

I have seen no evidence that there was a particularly organised drive to get male homosexuality included in any Mass Effect game, just the same old paranoid ramblings that talk about the 'gay agenda' like homosexuals are some sort of hive mind and obsessed cult rolled into one.

And for that matter, I don't elevate homosexuality above other sexual deviancies, in act, I think it's a more significant difference than any of those. Which is why I realise it'd be hypocritical of me not to be as generally accepting of them as well.

This is one of many articles on the subject:
http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-explains-lack-of-gay-sex-in-mass-effect-2-170051.phtml

There are others, but I'm trying to be fairly neutral on the subject. The basic point here is Bioware said flat out "no gay sex", it does not fit the atmosphere that they happened to want. Even in that article there was an immediate trend for politically correct backlash in "well, that's just plain wrong for a developer to decide something like that doesn't fit and other choices can fit but that one won't".

It's not just the gays themselves, but also the left wing as a whole, a big part of it is specifically that if you push up one minority group, it becomes much easier to push others up by using that one as an example.

What's more, when it comes to romance saying you can't relate can apply to a large number of deviancies. With the foot fetish for example, the point would be more likely that nobody implied footplay, rather than the lack of any kind of drawn out footplay scene. Ditto for someone saying that none of the relationships were "strong enough" or whatever, someone into BDSM might not expect a full scene, but could say that they either lacked a proper passive submissive, or a partner who took a dominant tone, and thus they couldn't relate to it.

The point here is that it's all down to sexual arousal from something unusual, whether it's a guy coming on to another guy because that's how your wired IRL, or someone mentioning they want to play scat games. It can all be argued romantically with equal force without there needing to be any drawn out sex scene.

Beyond which, the bottom line is that this still comes down to pressure on the creators. The creators say "no, this is not how we see it" whether they cut something or not, they decided that it did not fit, and complaints being made about entitlement, with the creator having to cater to them and not having the right to say "no" if they decide something does not fit within their creative vision.

You (and others to be fair) seem to be fixated on this because it involves male homosexuality, and that's the liberal cause of the moment, and are intentionally not looking at the big picture, and where this ultimatly leads.

To be honest I think any real point in favor of there having to be gay men in Mass Effect is heavily overwritten, by the simple fact that Bioware has had gay men in other games. It's not like the company is saying there will not be gay men in any of their titles ever, just that it doesn't fit into specific ones. Gay men will doubtlessly find other bioware games that will give them what they want, and where it fits in with the creative vision, without having to forcibly insinuate themselves everywhere.

This really is no differant than any other case where political correctness has destroyed a creative work due to forced inclusion.

Bioware's responses to this, like that of other companies, aren't based on the issue of gay men themselves and what that market might cause, but the power of the left wing media. See the potential loss of a few sales to a tiny minority might not bother them, but a one sided presentation through the media which an influance the roughly 50% of the population that have a pro-gay agenda even without being gay themselves is something entirely differant. It's not like there is an equally powerful right wing media within the mainstream that counterbalances it back to zero.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.

That's a very poor defense. Age of consent exists in only one animal species too.

EDITED for reasons that become clear later in the forum, lol.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Anyone get the feeling Jim trolls (the actual definition of the word, mind--not the internet slang) hot topics for page views?