Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3 And The Case For A Gay Shepard

jboking

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captainfluoxetine said:
jboking said:
Lord_Gremlin said:
Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.
Define what it is that makes homosexuality a mental illness. Define why, if homosexuality is a mental illness, heterosexuality can't be seen as a mental illness as well.
Heterosexuality makes babies. Homosexuality doesn't.

Frankly it IS, from an evolutionary point of view, wrong. Thats not wrong in a moral sense, but wrong in a continuation of the species sense.

I can fully understand why some consider it a mental illness, arguably an inherited or developed one.

My argument would be, so what? If it makes someone happy and does not inflict harm on them or others then whats the problem?
It actually isn't a mental illness from an evolutionary standpoint. A trait not being passed on or not being conducive to passing on does not mean that those traits constitute a mental illness, it means that they weren't conducive to reproducing. Also, concerning that homosexual couples in the modern day do find ways of reproducing, I'd say it doesn't hinder their reproductive capabilities. Their ability to work within their environment to overcome their natural flaws is a trait that ought to be passed on, from an evolutionary standpoint.

Also, Breeders, as I have heard them called, actually are the cause of one of the biggest issues of our time, overpopulation. An increase in homosexual couples who do not wish to reproduce would be the solution to this problem. This means that homosexuality would be our species saving grace. Our balancing act.

Really though, claiming that homosexuality is a mental illness is a much bigger claim. One that needs to be backed up by hard science.
 

ACman

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Therumancer said:
I raised questions like those that are into scat, extreme BDSM, or other assorted things, many of which probably have heterosexuals involved in numbers globally that outnumber the entire population of homosexuals of both genders. If you start saying you HAVE to do this, which is what this comes down to, because Bioware made it pretty clear they didn't want to, it opens the door for any group that wants to make similar demands to come forward and do the same exact thing.


...., the thing that has made this an issue is the massive protests to FORCE them to put this kind of thing into the game, simply because they chose to do so before with other games.

You do know that Bioware wrote these choices into ME2? There are scenes on Youtube, cut from ME2, that amply demonstrate that. Now that they've tested the market with Dragon Age 2 and the world hasn't ended they probably feel safer including these themes.

And how in your deluded little mind (Now that "gayness" is "allowed") would they include bestiality, BDSM, scat or pedophilia into a PG/M rated computer game? Are they going to include dialogue options such as:

"Hey Garret, want to come shit on my face while I jerk off"

or

"Yeoman Kelly go cuff yourself to my table and assume the position."?


This issue is MUCH bigger than homosexuality,
No it isn't. It starts with sexuality and ends with sexuality and your obvious problems with anything that deviates from your hetero-normative world view.


and down the road if you decide to make complaints about extraneous characters or politics ruining something... anything, what your saying here could come back to haunt you. Being stuck in a position of trying to explain how forced inclusion in something else is a problem, when your saying it's okay with homosexuality isn't going to be easy to argue your way out of as once you start saying it's okay for one group it's hard to say it about others.
What are you trying to say here? That because we say that homosexuality is okay we have to say everything up to pedophilia is okay?

This is where your world view becomes truly disgusting. If you cannot separate sex acts between two (or more) consenting adults, (No matter how disgusting you might find them) and RAPE then you obviously have issues with mental clarity.
 

K_Dub

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This is silly. Don't really know why people care about this so much. All's I know is that when I play through all three games again, I'm definitely gonna make a bisexual Shepard. Just sounds neat to me.
 

OmniscientOstrich

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Well, while I expected the Escapist's resident Blackshirt to exude his usual meandering spiel about how the pernicious influence of left wing (bare in mind he has a pretty damn risible interpretation of what qualifies as left/centre/right) ideology is responsible for anything and everything that's wrong with modern society, (no seriously, I fucking challange you to go through his posts and find one where he doesn't fucking drag political alingment into the discussion) I'm really surprised this is garnering as much attention as it has. It's pretty simple, you don't want a gay Shep then don't play as one, it has literally no impact upon you're playthrough, it is an optional path, I fail to see the issue, christ and people are calling gays entitled.
 

Tarkand

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Therumancer said:
Tarkand said:
Callate said:
Yeah, by and large I agree. (And last week's entry required clarification for some people? Really? REALLY?!)

Would like to mention a couple of things, though.

It appears that human bisexuality, at least among men, isn't all that common. The studies and surveys cited by Wikipedia rate it as roughly between 2 and 6 percent.

I don't actually know the specifics of how Bioware intends to handle gay or bisexual relationships in ME3, nor, of course, do I have any idea how they will handle the issue in the future. But it has to be said that having every significant human male character you interact with be bisexual to give options is just lazy writing. (Or every female, for that matter, though it stretches credibility slightly less.) I'm perfectly willing to believe that the Xyrg'kkk'l are all culturally bisexual, or that elves have much higher rates of bisexuality, or whatever. I'm even willing to believe that one or two human characters (including the player) are bisexual. But until bisexuality becomes a requirement for entry into the Alliance military, storytelling and character should have a priority over being able to re-use dialogue and textures for sex scenes.

For that matter, if we really want to be inclusive, "we need homosexual options for the PC" shouldn't just mean a couple of people who swing both ways; it's perfectly reasonable, and as far as I know untouched in Bioware's oeuvre, that some NPCs just be homosexual. It would actually be more interesting to my mind to have your strangely magnetic PC be shot down once in a while because your engineering officer just doesn't swing that way.

Other than that, as long as my companions pay attention when I say "no, not interested, thanks", I'm happy to applaud Bioware taking their excellent stories in whatever direction their writers see fit to take them.

Only I'm not going to be playing them because Origin is the devil. Oh well...
I do actually agree with that point.

Did I mind that Ander hit on my male character when I was playing my first playthrought with my burly Male Hawke warrior?

Not at all. I turned him down, which cost me some point with him (which is logical), but by the end Ander was a steadfast ally and a friend. I don't care that you like cocks instead of pussy, you're the best healer I got, I want you watching my back. More the better if you enjoy the view.

But then on my second playthrought, I'm playing as a sexy female hawke rogue... and he's hitting on me again.

Wait. What? I thought you were gay!

I understand why they did it... there was a lot of complaint from people back in DA1 that the only homosexual option were Lilianna and that crow guy (can't remember his name) and that both of them were actually 'bi-sexual', not truly gay.

I understand that it can be frustrating to not be able to romance a character you like because the writers decided he didn't swing the way you wanted. Especially since it does seem to sideline the gay option much more often than the straight option.

Really, I get it.

And it's not even like I'm mad or bothered at it. If every single romanceable character in ME3 is Bi-sexual like they were in DA2, I'm still going to enjoy the game.

But yeah, that doesn't change the fact that it is lazy writing and pandering. But considering that videogame are about wish fulfillment, pandering isn't exactly a bad thing.
Well, see this is part of my point. The thing is that they intended this for Dragon Age, however as they pointed out to Destructoid, the writers didn't intend it for Mass Effect. Two entirely differant products where the writers decided to go in a differant direction.

Things like Dragon Age show they aren't going to avoid the issue when it fits their image of the characters, game and property. That in no way obligates them to write it into everything they create however.

It's like saying that in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" they should have put a gay male into the main cast since they had heterosexuals, and a lesbian, simply so as not to exclude any gay male viewers. Inserting token characters based on politically correct demands never ends well.

As far as Anders goes in paticular, you have to remember he started in "Awakenings" (expansion for Origins) and his comments there definatly implied he liked the ladies, though his apperance and earring (the side it's on) implied otherwise. Him turning out to be bi- was a reasonable character revelation.

To be honest if your going to pick, I suppose it could be pointed out that everyone is hetero or bi-, I don't think they have had a flat out exclusive gay character yet. Leliana and Isabella go both ways, Anders and Zevran go both ways. But that's a seperate issue from whether a gay male should be in Mass Effect 3 for purposes of appeasement.
I didn't know about Ander starting in Awakening, never bought that DLC.

I ended up not romancing him with my female character and went with Fenris instead (and learned in another playthrough that he too swings both way... he apparently didn't get the occasion to hit on my original char because since my male hawke was a 2 handed fighter, I never even bothered to use Fenris and hardly had any dialogue with him at all) because to me, Ander was gay and it didn't make any sense for him to end up in a relationship with a female.

As you can imagine, further playthrough of DA2 ended up muddling the water and it made the whole cast seems much less 'real' than I had first believe after my original playthrough. And that was a shame.
 

darron13

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Lono Shrugged said:
Great as usual but he totally missed out on the entitlement argument. Considering how many tits and asses get jammed in our face in most games, homosexual dudes must have it pretty rough.
Then again there is Gears of war....

My favorite thing about Jim I gotta say is how consistant and well thought out his opinions are. (even if i sometimes disagree I never fault where he is coming from) He never seems to contradict himself proving a point and thats the reason I would rather have more respect for him than some of the other people who do opinion pieces on this site.
Gears of War? Ick. Those guys are about as attractive as a piece of burnt toast taped onto a tank.
Coming from an actual gay guy.
And yeah it's funny that in the RARE SITUATION where there's male fanservice, you notice it.
 

Grey Day for Elcia

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flippedthebitch said:
Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

okokok..... Monkeys. Ya? Monkeys.
I was clearly referring to the useful kind--the kind only found in a handful of species.

In your rush to starwman you missed the point just about as hard as one possibly could. It should have been fairly obvious I suggesting any argument centered around "but other animals don't" is inane.

If we are going to go ahead and use the "unnatural" defense, I suppose the following should be removed:

courts and law
broad sexual equality
age of consent
currency
the education system (schools)
clothing
democracy;
government
etc.
etc.

It's just a flat out pointless argument. I'm reminded of a pretty funny bit a stand up comedian did:

Anti-homosexuality activist - "Animals don't have gays." [small][Ignore the fact that we are animals and that other animals are gay, just for the sake of making fun of this person, lol.][/small]
Comedian - "You wanna judge what is and isn't normal based off what animals do? Maybe next time I see your wife I'll drop down on all fours and fuck her leg."

It's a bad argument. Don't do it, people.
 
Mar 28, 2011
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gyroscopeboy said:
galaith100 said:
Why would you not want Shepard to fuck guys, it only make him more pimp.
Ill just leave this here

"(as if) they're not tough, they FUCK MEN...thats HARDLY gay" - Steve Hughes


Pimp as fuck bro ;)
GRRRAAAAGH NINJA'D!

And Jim, for the first time on any forum, anywhere, you've made it possible for me to use this picture with absolutely no irony, or sarcasm.



Thank Whatever-Higher-Power-You-Believe-In, for Jim.
 

wintercoat

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Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.
Are you sure you want to make that assumption? Are you sure you don't want to maybe check that fact before you use it? Because I think you're hurting the giant panda's feelings with that comment. Not to mention most primates, possums and opossums, koalas, polydactyl cats, this one species of frog in South America. You get my drift.
 

Grey Day for Elcia

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wintercoat said:
Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.
Are you sure you want to make that assumption? Are you sure you don't want to maybe check that fact before you use it? Because I think you're hurting the giant panda's feelings with that comment. Not to mention most primates, possums and opossums, koalas, polydactyl cats, this one species of frog in South America. You get my drift.
Go ahead and check 309 before jumping on that sinking ship.
 

Orlake

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I like how there are folk out there who can accept that there exists a universe where there are single gendered, blue people who do freaky things with their eyes during sex, walking cockroaches, and giant ancient squids bent on universal janitorial services every couple millions of years....but freak the fuck out at the sight of a gay person.

...Gay people exist too =\
 

Nohra

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Honestly, I have more of a problem with boning everything under the sun than I do what gender it is that's being boned. But then, I'm pretty open minded with my sexuality.

But Shepard is just following in James T. Kirk's footsteps.

Or if you look at the timelines, setting the bar for Kirk.
 

Grey Day for Elcia

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Alrocsmash said:
Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.

Actually supposable exist in about 8. That can grow if you include prehensile feet. Grow about 15 years older then speak to me. Also isn't it ironic, those species with those thumbs out compete others. It's obvious you are REALLY young. A 10 second google search disproves your post. As as I said in my OP, grow up.
I was clearly referring to the useful kind--the kind only found in a handful of species.

In your rush to starwman you missed the point just about as hard as one possibly could. It should have been fairly obvious I suggesting any argument centered around "but other animals don't" is inane.

If we are going to go ahead and use the "unnatural" defense, I suppose the following should be removed:

courts and law
broad sexual equality
age of consent
currency
the education system (schools)
clothing
democracy;
government
etc.
etc.

It's just a flat out pointless argument. I'm reminded of a pretty funny bit a stand up comedian did:

Anti-homosexuality activist - "Animals don't have gays." [Ignore the fact that we are animals and that other animals are gay, just for the sake of making fun of this person, lol.]
Comedian - "You wanna judge what is and isn't normal based off what animals do? Maybe next time I see your wife I'll drop down on all fours and fuck her leg."

It's a bad argument. Don't do it, people.
- [link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.353118.14013347[/link]

You want to use that to justify homosexuality (which doesn't need justifying) and you cannot argue against if if someone was to say "no other species on Earth has laws against having sex with their young, so it's unnatural that we do".

Ok, so far you've offered a terrible argument and attempted to insult me by saying I am a child.

You're not bringing much to the table here in this debate.
 

jessegeek

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Callate said:
jessegeek said:
Callate said:
It appears that human bisexuality, at least among men, isn't all that common.
Right, like how it isn't all that common for one person to stand up against the Geth army to defend the galaxy. You're right, those things are so super-rare, I don't know why they even put them in games: it just breaks immersion for me completely.
Way to miss the point.

[Edited for relevance]

Whether it's Beowulf slaying Grendel or Shepherd reclaiming Earth from an evil alien force, these stories are familiar to us, and don't need explanation. Is it unlikely that one man would be largely responsible for defeating a force that has eaten galaxy-spanning civilizations? Does that portrayal minimize the contributions millions of fictional people would make towards making such a victory possible, or realistically believable? Yes, but we're familiar with the conventions, and we don't dwell on it; we enjoy hearing about heroes, believing we could be heroes, stepping into the shoes of heroes, in the case of games.

[Edited again.] Science fiction can be heroic, of course, but that's not usually it's only purpose. Science fiction reflects upon, and comments upon, the reality we live in today. Mass Effect does this, too. When we hear some people grumble about the quarians, it very much reflects the attitudes we see toward "migrant" peoples, whether the Romany in Europe or the Latino workers who do so much of the farming in the United States. When Shepherd decides whether to reprogram or destroy the Geth, it brings up questions of the rehabilitation or execution of criminals in our own society. Even the faster-than-light travel, so much a staple of science fiction, reasonably asks the question "what would being able to access a million worlds to to a people"... A question Mass Effect also tries to answer, albeit often in ways that are fairly subtle.

So when you talk about prevalent bisexuality breaking immersion for me, you're missing the point. In the culture I live in, and you live in, and most players of the game live in, human bisexuality, especially male human bisexuality, appears to be relatively rare. We make certain assumptions about things within the game world by extrapolating from what we know; the designers and writers know this. Hell, they anticipate it. :) If a Lieutenant started giving orders to an Admiral, or guns worked by microwaving people's internal organs rather than firing bullets, or children were expected to be independent and self-sustaining entities by the age of seven, we'd want an explanation. :)

Widely prevalent bisexuality would have a significant, real effect on human culture, just as faster-than-light travel would do. It deserves to be treated as such, not just hand-waved. I'm not saying that I would be averse to playing a game that did assume such a change in human culture, only that it's not an extrapolation one should make from our current status without explaining what brought it on.
Um, you just mistook sarcastic reductio ad adsurdum of your argument for me missing the point, which is interesting as you actually use this rhetorical device yourself in the passage of your post that I have marked out with smiley faces.

Your sound grasp of basic history, literature and the history of literature notwithstanding, your central argument still isn't supported by your own terms. I know this is stating the obvious but because male bisexuality is rare now, doesn't mean it doesn't exist now. Similarly, if male bisexuality is still rare in the Mass Effect universe, that still wouldn't mean that it was non-existent. Therefore, it is no great stretch of the imagination that one man and one member of his crew in a vast galaxy could be both male and bisexual.

However, I'm aware that your main gripe seems to be with the idea of the cultural impact of practising male bisexuality within that universe. Allow me to level with you here. I am an archaeologist and anthropologist who both works and studies at Cambridge University, and one of my fields of expertise is sexuality and gender identity, so I have a degree of knowledge in that area. The resounding impact of the huge levels of male bisexuality in both the Grecian and Roman empires was very little. Pretty much the only noticeable sign of impact was less of a heterosexual bias in erotic art and literature, and the fact that no-one batted an eyelid if a man slept with a man or a woman. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable for the Mass Effect writers to have applied that same approach to the universe they created in their games. In fact, that actually seems to be the route they originally took; gay/bi love options were originally a part of the story, but were removed before release. All that was removed were the actual romantic interaction scenes. Nothing about the core make-up of the Mass Effect universe, or the themes explored within it, was changed by this.

There seems to be little else to say, save for one thing; at one point, you emphasised that I also lived in a culture where 'human bisexuality, especially male human bisexuality, appears to be relatively rare.' Firstly, that was incredibly presumptive; none of the three base meaning of the word 'culture' fulfil that criteria from my perspective. Needless to say, using something you don't know about a person as evidence for your point in a debate does not support or strength your argument in any way. Secondly, you then went on to justify this false belief with your reductio ad absurdum sentence. In context this isn't logical debating, as all of your examples were so bizarre that, in comparison, the concept of male bisexuality seemed even more mundane and normal than it already is.
 

wintercoat

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Grey Day for Elcia said:
wintercoat said:
Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.
Are you sure you want to make that assumption? Are you sure you don't want to maybe check that fact before you use it? Because I think you're hurting the giant panda's feelings with that comment. Not to mention most primates, possums and opossums, koalas, polydactyl cats, this one species of frog in South America. You get my drift.
Go ahead and check 309 before jumping on that sinking ship.
Umm, giant panda's are classified as having opposable thumbs. As are possum and opossum. Sure, you could make an argument against polydactyl cats, but seriously. Do research before you make claims. As other animals do have thumbs, you're argument comes off as weak. And again, you're making the giant panda sad. I'm pretty sure that's, like, a sin of some kind.

 

Grey Day for Elcia

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wintercoat said:
Seeing as how you missed the message again, I'll quote the man and make it simple:

"You wanna judge what is and isn't normal based off what animals do? Maybe next time I see your wife I'll drop down on all fours and fuck her leg."

It's a bad argument. Don't do it, people.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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ACman said:
Grey Day for Elcia said:
Alrocsmash said:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.
That's a very poor defense. Thumbs exist in only one animal species too.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

okokok..... Monkeys. Ya? Monkeys.
Or Raccoons.

Or Possums.

Or Squirrels.
Do lemurs have thumbs too? I think they do. And I think "monkey" only covers a few of the primates, most of which have thumbs of a kind.

Edit: oh... FFFFFF.... forgot to read later posts. cra... Um... okay, um... Your body your choice? That's a very flexible argument, that can be applied to any situation. Full version is "Do what you want with your body, it's your choice, so long as I don't have to be caught up in your stuff if I don't want to".
 

thetruefallen

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Our free will makes everything posible. Everything we do is a choice, some chocies are nessisary, like the choice to eat and breathe, to not give in and hurl your self from the bridge, to want to be happy.

Other chocies, while apreaing nessisary, appeal only to the individual, such as choosing empolyment (if any), choosing a partner, perpetuating the species. These choices are manditory to the overall survival of culture, socioty, and humanity as a whole. Every individual contributes to the whole, no matter what their choice.

Culture, Socioty and humanity will all continue, changes as they may be from an individuals actions, to the individual, the chocie is a dramatic one, to the culture and socioty, it will generate an impact relevent to the first individuals social standing and the choices of other individuals.

As more individuals make more choices that fall our side of the social normal, the relative impact is reduced further and further until eventually they are rendered un-interesting to other individauls other than a foot-note. This is a place we are slowly reaching.

The choice you make in a video game is a considerably insignificant given the above.

Praise be to Jim, for he truly does good work.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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easternflame said:
mike1921 said:
easternflame said:
mike1921 said:
easternflame said:
OP: I don't really think Bioware are open and mature to be quite honest, let me give you 2 clear examples. First, you can go Lesbian in Mass Effect 1 and 2 but not gay. Also, the demo
Wrex refers to the queen as "Women". First of all, SEXIST? ANYONE? Also this is inconsistent. For fucks sake! Wrex has always wanted to save the Krogan, this could be one of the last fertile females, and Wrex is the first one to want to fight the genophage, he would have utmost respect for this female, it may be his race's last hope.
So yeah, open and mature, I don't think so Jim.
Why is bioware assumed to agree with Wrex and think his actions are right? Having a character do bigoted things (although I don't really get the bigot vibe from wrex) does not make the writer a bigot.
It is not about biggotry, it about the inconsistency with the story and character. Remember in mass effect one where you had to kill Wrex (or convince him) because he wanted to save the facility for the survival of the species? He would have the utmost respect for the queen! why am I the only one to see this?!
Peoples' ideals don't always line up perfectly with their personalities. He could deep down respect the female Krogan and still want to be generally a dick to her. Just because he wants increased fertility so the species can breed doesn't mean he has entirely respectful interactions with female Krogan. It's not an assumption you can make and I see no reason this connection would be made.
You really think that's what the line reflects? Then explain to me this, if he had no other interaction with females before, and obviously not with other females from the other species' then why would he say that line? It makes no sense! He would A) not refer to her as a woman. And B) Would not know what to say in a situation like that.
Maybe he thinks the word "woman' IS respectfull... But I'm clutching straws her for the sake of someone elses argument so... *Wild Ze'roth flees*