Jimquisition: Photorealistic Sociopathy

Headdrivehardscrew

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wackelpudding said:
One thing we all agree on, though, is that photo-realistic graphics wouldn't benefit Infinite. That's something.
You got it.

I get fistfuls, buckets, megatons of reality when I go outside, and I like reality as represented in movies sometimes. If people think they need to wrap up reality once more in video games, they're wrong.

I'm an Escapist. Capital E. I want my games to be... different. Palatable. Pleasing. Disturbing. Satisfying. Frustrating, if need be, but well put together. Like a cake. If I were to stuff raw eggs, a stick of butter, a bag of sugar and a bag of flour in my face, I wouldn't have cake.

I don't want photo-realism in games, for art needs to be man-made, it needs to be artificial, yet artisanal, not industrial. Yes, I am impressed by people who build photo-realistic pictures up from minute sputterings of an airbrush paintgun, I admire the patience of folks building photo-realistic images up pixel by pixel... that's art alright, but it's art mimicking reality, art enslaved by reality. I don't want that.

I have no issues with Elizabeth looking like a demented Barbie doll, as long as she's part of the vistas, the view, the experience that is, or might be Bioshock 3. I'm happy to get more Bioshock, but, alas, as with that Dark Knight supposedly rising, I fear we might be in for some severe letdowns and disappointments. I think art may very well repeat itself over and over again, especially these days, when we're all easily diagnosed with some form of ADD and in severe need of Adderall or Ritalin. As long as you don't get instructions from dogs or Satan himself, however, I think reality is harsh enough so I'd like art to be pure, unfiltered, real; a proper vent, freedom of the insanity of normalcy, a window, an escape route with a wunderloop - and not a melonfarming pressure cooker. I like LA Noire, but the game bit is sort of a nice-to-have, a value-added-content to the facial capturing/replay routines. I was stunned when I recognized folks in movies and on TV, folks whom I did not recognize by their facial features and their voice alone before LA Noire.

I still can't remember their names, though.

The first time I played Demon's Souls I thought they were crazy, insane, evil. Then I noticed the genius bit. It suddenly popped up, made a little dance on my hippocampus, and it really made my gaming life that much richer and more significant. It inspired me, it hooked me and I am still not done with Dark Souls. It's pretty much the perfect drug, but there just cannot be any perfection when humans are involved. We are imperfection at its peak, and we always need to struggle to get better... and skip Windows 8.
 

Varya

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wackelpudding said:
Varya said:
Nah, BioShock Infinite has a conciously cartoony look. Take a look at the main girl, her anatomy isn't proper, just look at her eyes, and it isn't about fantasy, it's because a cartoony faces are easier to relate to, their expressions are more clear. And look at the art for that game in general, it's subtle, I'll give you, but it's colouring and texturing is conciously non-realistic. It fits the setting better, and photorealism would take away from the unique tone of the game
Headdrivehardscrew said:
While I liked what I saw so far, even though I really didn't want to see anything before actually playing the game and be surprised while playing it, I think the game has contracted a severe case of da Anime heads.

Just look at Elizabeth, that damsel-in-distress sidekick character:

[... pic snip...]

Realistic? Those eyes would take up some serious real estate of her skullspace, making her brain roughly the size of that of a big dog, with her cerebellum being squeezed against the lower backside of her skull.

Also, staying with the character of Elizabeth, for I really hate Levine & folks for teasing us with a whole bunch of awesome (yet ridiculously unreal) characters that would look just fine if they popped up in anything from Fist of the North Star to Ninja Scroll - tell me you revise your opinion that her body proportions are anywhere near 'real', please. Come on, her head is bigger than her chest, and she's so skinny she'd have to have her skin stretched for months before some mad doctor could pop them silicone boobies in.

[... pic snip...]

Granted, there are other images of her available, but some of those seem to come from FMV sequences, and I am not entirely certain about them having been produced in-house or if it's just another case of Deep Silver/Axis (Dead Island promo trailer) or Mythic/Blur Studio (Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning promo trailer) - it just remains to be seen.

They might still just pull a Digital Extremes/The Darkness II or Gearbox/Borderlands and revise and redefine the graphical aspects of the game, but none of what I've seen so far screams "REALITY".

In fact, if I were to bump into a person with the proportions Elizabeth features, I'd consider believing in Aliens, and I'd be very afraid I might snap her neck by sneezing at her. In short, I'd be a bit horrified.
I never said BioShock Infinite had a realistic (art) style per se. It has a more realistic style for me than something I would call "cartoony". It is, however, set in a fantasy setting and as such I consider some abnormalities [from "real" reality] as "normal".

Speaking of Elizabeth's anatomy which you both referred to:
Her eyes might be/look big and look anime-ish, but there are people [especially women] whose eyes are or at least appear this big. There are cases where the iris takes up freaking much space of the visible eye. So, yes, it looks odd, but it isn't too unrealistic.
Her body anatomy? While I'd like for her to look more like she wouldn't be blown away by wind speed of Beaufort 4 or 5, there are, again, women who have such proportions [which you might want to call unhealthy]. Then again, the corset she's wearing: Guess, what its purpose is? To squeeze her body into a "perfect" form. Fashion is crazy like that sometimes.
The biggest problem I have with Elizabeth's appearance is her neck. But, once more, such can be found in real life.
You could question that Irrational decided to put all these rather abnormal appearances into one person and you could call it exaggeration that they did, but it is a real possibility within their universe. For me, it doesn't make it "real" real, but also not cartoony.

And why do colourful textures and/or lighting make it cartoony? Is everything that's somewhat set in fantasy automatically cartoony? If so, I gotta adjust my world view.

One thing we all agree on, though, is that photo-realistic graphics wouldn't benefit Infinite. That's something.
Of, firstly, sorry for not editing down the quote, but I'm on my iPad so editing is a female dog.
Secondly, and more to the point, "cartoony" is maybe a matter of definition, but, yes, I'd still call it cartoony. But the main thing is, Bioshok departed from photorealism, not because of limitations, but because of artistic reasons. Take the eyes, no, it's not super exagerated, but a bit, just enough so that she appears to have big eyes, but "real" enough for us not to emidiately think of her as cartoony. Saying it is "normal for a fantasy-setting" assumes that fantasy can't be photorealistic, or that no other elements than the fantastic in Bioshock are unrealistic, and that just isn't the case.
Colours is definately a cartoony thing, simply because, in cartoons, colors are brighter and overall clearer to define, and also, not realistic. Colours in Bioshok is done in an unreal way. Like the eyes, not so that we emideately go "oh, that's fake" but just enogh to convey the tone clearer. We might even see it as more real, because we remember things clearer than they were, we think of water as blue, grass as green, when there are thousands of variations, but we translate it as green, so making the colours clearer translates the signals to our brain better. But again, the point of the matter, an artistic choice to step away from realism, made not because of limitatios of graphics but to fit the artdirection. Ergo, Bioshok is a perfect example of games embracing non-photorealism
 

andersgeek

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Varya said:
Ergo, Bioshok is a perfect example of games embracing non-photorealism
True.
And yes, apparently it's only the definition of the word "cartoony" that keeps clashing our views. Cartoons are an over-exaggeration for me, I guess. If for you it's already one or two steps away from reality [an exaggeration without "over-", which for me is merely a "touch" of fantasy], then, yes, Infinite is sporting a cartoony style.

I'm still not gonna call it "cartoony" when talking about it. ;)
 

Brad Gardner

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I hate this photo realistic bull myself. I personally need some extra degree of separation for my pallet. If I realistically cut off someone's head in a game, I think I'd be sick because personally can't separate myself.

I don't really understand this Chik Fele thing honestly. I prefer to stay ignorant about. However, what I glen from stuff and third hand information the owner gave money to a anti-same-gender-marriage cause, which personally seems to be an opinion of one person who as an American citizen has a right to do.

My stance I think we should illegalize marriage all together, for the some reason why we should illegalize tobacco and alcohol and pot, which is people abuse it and if one person abuse something no one should have it.

Yes, my opinion is irrational and kinda dumb, but I have the right to have it.
 

Do4600

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Damn, now I'm old. You made your point perfectly to me when you showed that bit from Final Fantasy 6. Well done.
 

CarlMin

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I don't really see where the problem is. In my opinion, graphics and gameplay walks hand in hand. Let's take the original Half Life as an example of a game that managed to set a new standard for storytelling, by creating a dynamic graphics engine which allowed the game to feature bigger more varied environments, and replacing the old cut scenes with continuously interactive characters and events. It introduced a whole new form of storytelling to the gaming world, one which games even today are modeled after.

Better hardware allows for innovation, both when it comes to gameplay and graphics, which in turns leads to better storytelling. Now that some game developers create shallow, generic games has nothing to do with some strange fixation with graphics, but more with the fact that the game developers are simply making bad games.
 

thesilentman

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Jun 14, 2012
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Sgt. Sykes said:
Nah. I love Bastion, Portal or BGoE just as much as I love Crysis, AssCreed or Far Cry.

The thing is, you can make a simplistic-looking, but otherwise great game on old hardware.

You want the next, better Crysis? Can't do.

I fully agree graphics isn't everything. But the point is that games shouldn't RELY on graphics and good graphics shouldn't REQUIRED of ALL games. But it's still important in some games. And yes, Crysis was awesome.
Give this man a medal. Took the words right out of my mouth.
 

Treblaine

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What they might have meant by "this generation is over" is "it's time to release next generation consoles, which normally defines the end of the previous generation"
 

The_Lost_King

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The guy may be a manger of the restaurant but he is also a person who is allowed to be religious and have his own views. Other than that I totally agree with your episode Jim.
The Plunk said:
Nicolaus99 said:
The Plunk said:
Nicolaus99 said:
Countries with oil obviously have a monopoly on oil.

Chic-Fil-A obviously doesn't have a monopoly on fried chicken or whatever it is that they serve.
BS. Take your hypocrite outrage out on the oil companies; boycott THEM and demand they sell no oil sourced from those countries. And yes, that data is most certainly tracked. Round up your hippie friends and protest at their embassies for executing gays for, you know, being gay. Take it to your congressmen, pass laws against importing from them. If you think the USA isn't sitting on more than enough oil to see to itself you clearly don't know anything about the subject.

If you people are so morally outraged, don't just sit there and "I give a sh_t only when it is convenient and effortless for me to do so."
I get it, you hate gay people.

I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who is so irrational and detached from reality that they hate people because a book written over 2000 years ago told them to. Welcome to my ignore list.
He never said any where that he hates gays. He just pointed out how much of a hypocite you are. Plus people are allowed to have views. People can be against something. Our government doesn't allow Gay marriage why don't you just stop following their rules? There are so many people that don't like gay marriage and they have a right to think that way. It may be rediculous to think that way but they still have a right to. As a side note I have nothing against gay marriage, in fact I know and am friends with 2 gay people.
 

awdrifter

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While I definitely agree that photorealistic graphics is not needed to make good emotional games, having good graphics definitely help. I recently played Xenoblade and The Last Story (Wii games), in many cutscenes I can't help but think "wow, this scene would be so much impressive if the character models have better detail". Giving developers a wide range of tools is never a bad thing. If devs want to go cartoony or anime style, they can do it now. But if they want to go fully realistic, we're not quite there yet, especially with the character models and facial expressions. There's nothing wrong with trying to get past the uncanny valley, and see what the other side holds.
 

Xenowolf

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Tenmar said:
The Heavy Rain comment was a low blow. Simply due to the fact that it is very difficult to actually get the game published that tests that line for sex and sexual themes without being dragged into the mainstream and being called pornography. At least despite failing it tried to actually be tasteful and tried to push the border for future developers to actually not be afraid to include sex in their game.
Amen to that. What does he expect, for Quantic Dream to actually try to successfully release an AO-rated game?
 

sagitel

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i was going to say that its obvious that graphics doesnt make a game but i remembered some of my friend that asked how is the graphic every time i suggest a game to them. pathetic sociopaths.

also i cant believe jim didn't name to the moon.
 

Hiroshi Mishima

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I pretty much agree with everything Jim said. Games like Final Fantasy VI with the opera, or Grandia with Feena & Leen, and so on.. totally unrealistic looking games that were able to evoke powerful emotions. Hell, Mother 3 has me so friggin' angry during the first chapter I was ready to break someone's face open cause I could feel all the rage and anguish that Flint was going through.

I would like to say one thing though about Bioshock Infinite. If the female lead continues to look the way she does, I'll probably not want to play it. Why? Cause having her tits practically about to fall out everytime she leans over is distracting as fucking hell. It's poor character design and just looks unattractive and doesn't fit with the visual style the previous two games had going. I'm perfectly fine with them wanting to lean slightly more towards cartoony or maybe McGee's Alice-esque style graphics. But gods, reduce the size of her breasts and/or cover them up a bit more.

If there's one thing I DO get pretty uptight about insofar as realism and whatnot go, it's believable breast sizes. Few things are less attractive than a woman who looks like she's been crushed so hard in the waist all her mass has gone to the hips/chest, and yet I still see this popping up in games. If you gotta breast fetish, there's online sites for that, but leave it outta the games I might wanna play.

EDIT: By the way, I actually mirror Jim's sentiments about Heavy Rain. It was laughable at best, and actually reminded me more of cheesy sex scenes in bad movies. Or just sex scenes in movies in general, which are usually pretty shit, anyways. I don't think it made the game any better, that's for sure. Last time I fell to the ground with my girlfriend we both got hurt, so I can also attest to the lack of believability in a game that's trying to be believable. Regardless of the issues with sex and rating.