Jimquisition: Reasons To Pass On Season Passes

Jimothy Sterling

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Reasons To Pass On Season Passes

You were promised an episode on season passes, in the wake of Jimquisition complaing about downloadable content. There is a season for all things, and that season has come to pass.

Watch Video
 

Vault Citizen

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This is why I'm glad I didn't buy the Last of Us Season Pass. I did think about it to support the game but after they said what the DLC would be it turned out that I only wanted to buy one DLC item that would be sold as part of the season pass.
 

Canadamus Prime

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I will not pre-order games and I will definitely not pre-order DLC. Season Passes and any Publisher that uses them can go fuck themselves.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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The best additional content is never included in the season pass anyway, much better to wait and DLsee what turns up after launch.
 

ImBigBob

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I almost never buy DLC. I grabbed a couple for Borderlands 1, and that was it. Unless you count Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, which is about the best argument for DLC you could possibly have.
 

LazyAza

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When Jim Sterling drops a mic you have fucking been told game industry. Damn season passes, make me sick on a mere conceptual level they do.
 

DataSnake

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The trust issue is why I like Volition's approach to season passes. Namely, that you can buy the season pass at release and have all the A-grade DLC appear in your game as soon as it comes out (in a weird inversion, the B-grade weapon-and-outfit packs are what you have to buy separately) or you can wait until all the DLC is out and then buy the season pass to get all of it at a discount. Hell, the season pass for Saints Row The Third is still [http://store.steampowered.com/app/901805/] available on Steam, and the last piece of DLC dropped more than a year and a half ago!
 

Zero Serenity

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What about pre-order bonuses that are DLC? Darksiders II does this and I don't find anything particularly wrong with it.
 

schwitz

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I don't even pre-order games. Let alone pre-order a pack of DLC that I have no idea when its coming out.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Another good one Jim. I never really understood season passes and haven't really taken part in them. This convinces me it should stay that way.
 

Andy Shandy

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Jun 7, 2010
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Despite buying two season passes previously (Bishock Infinite and LA Noire), I definitely agree. In the case of Bioshock Infinite, the only reason I decided to get that was simply because I was given 1600 Microsoft Points free from Microsoft after they buggered something up around about that time, and I'd played Bioshock Infinite and loved it. So it cost me nothing. In the case of LA Noire, I bought it months after all the DLC was out and reviewed (most of them reviewed highly, or I wouldn't have bothered with the thing) and was 75% off in a Deal Of The Week sale.

For the most part, however, like I said I would agree. Much better to wait and see whether all the DLC is good. And then maybe, the discounts that the Season Pass provide could be worth it.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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I'm in a sticky situation (as Denner once was according to Blackjack - guess the reference). There are 2 game series that are like holy cows to me - Killzone and Mortal Kombat series. Normally I would never buy a season pass ever, but sorry Killzone gets away with it with me. Because I would buy anything Killzone, as simple as that.
Death to the ISA and all.

Anyway, I'm surprised that Jim haven't mentioned the recent trend of making a piece of DLC 100% exclusive to season pass purchase.
And that is what frustrates me. It's the trend of selling incomplete games. I'm a bit mad when it comes to select few games that I grow to really like. Like, I loved Dragon's Dogma and that made me buy every single piece of DLC. Some are 100% useless trash by the way and basically are donations to Capcom Dragon's Dogma profit pool. Thing is, that a lot of DLC puts me off buying games. I was about to preorder Prototype 2 CE when they announced DLC plans.
I never bought Prototype 2.
 

hawk533

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Curious what Jim would think if Payday 2 offers a DLC pass when the first piece of DLC finally drops for it. I know he celebrated the ability of that studio to make a profit on "only" 1 million copies sold.

I've already put 100 hours into the game, so if they offer a pass, I think I'll buy it. I don't think the pass is a bad idea if it's not offered until after the game comes out. That way everyone can determine if they want to keep playing or not.
 

Anthony Wells

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I gotta say. I agree preordering DLC is a risky business. I'm willing to take the risk when a dev has proved to me they can put out quality content (speaking specifically of gearbox and the borderlands series) but its still a risk, however I don't think season passes are inherently a bad thing, then again I don't think most things are inherently bad, most are just flawed.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Agreed im. I mean seriously I don't believe in the idea of pre-ordering downloadable content to begin with. Do you really absolutely have to have it the very second it gets out, geez christ get over it. I will acknowledge it has some significance with physical games but when they start selling preorders of digitally distributed games... that's where logic leaves the room.


Pre-Orders historically are for where you know there's going to be great demand and you want to ensure you get a copy of the limited supply. In digital the supply is infinite. Couldn't you just I dunno, buy it the day it's actually released?


As for Selling DLC... yeah, you can do that but season passes... again as Jim said, you're selling something that doesn't exist.
 

Petromir

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Not sure I can agree with the concept that they a bad thing for everyone. The way most of them are done (I've yet to see different) The season pass is avaslible pretty much forever, the DLC is avalaible seperatly, and later a Game of the year/gold edition appears with everything rolled in.

What this is doing over just seperate DLC is adding consumer choice, which last time I checked was a good fucking thing.

If you don't trust in advance enough then you can by piece by piece, or wait till the value of the seperate bits you might like overtake the cost of them seperately, if it never does then theres a simple solution there.

As long as nothing meanigful is locked perminantly behind a preorder/retailer/season pass bonus there is no problem.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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A 60 Dollar game would NOT have needed DLC for support if they came MODABLE.
Modding >>> DLC. Of coarse, good DLC + modding is golden, but if a developer wants to REALLY support their game post-launch, release a SDK. There you go, if it has fans, it will be eternal. Immortal. The rest is BS.

Anyways, good episode Jim! But what if we really really trust the developing company? Is it alright then (and we were never dissapointed from them before)
 

Lord_Gremlin

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Zero Serenity said:
What about pre-order bonuses that are DLC? Darksiders II does this and I don't find anything particularly wrong with it.
I remember it. I've encountered weird ghostly stuff in DS2 and it frustrated me constantly. When I've learned it was some retailer exclusive preorder bonus.
Not available in my country too.
I was so fucking glad when THQ crashed and burned. I'm a willing supporter of good game, I bought every piece of SR3 DLC before that, but preorder bonuses that are NOT available for purchase at launch? This is where I spit and turn around to go away and never return.
 

CManator

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I bought season passes for Borderlands 2 and Bioshock infinite, and I regret them both. While they are both good games, neither held my interest long enogh to care about playing the dlc (if and) when it actually came out. I paid for content and i still don't know if it's any good, and probably won't find out for a long time.

No more season passes for me.
 

Ruzinus

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How to Season Pass:

Wait for all the DLC to be out.

Notice that the Season Pass is still sold.

Wait for the Season Pass to get a Steam Sale.

Make purchasing decision.
 

Ukomba

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I hate the idea of a season pass and have never bought one, but I have to admit, I would probably get one for a game I knew I was going to buy all the dlc for anyways. Though, the only game I can think of that falls into that category at the moment is Mass Effect.
 

Viper114

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I used to think Season Passes were good. After all, not only does it promise to save me money but it saves me the effort of needing to buy the DLC and download it when it just downloads it automatically. But it's starting to make sense how the DLC takes forever to come out (Bioshock Infinite the prime example), how they can choose to ignore the pass altogether for some DLC (Borderlands 2 with the Psycho on that example) AND how they produce DLC that has absolutely no interest for me whatsoever (Batman Arkham series with the stupid challenge modes, no interest whatsoever). I think it's best to ignore the pass for now and just buy the DLC as it comes. It may cost a bit more in the long run, but considering how far apart the DLC releases, paying $5 or $10 or $15 every few months isn't exactly wallet breaking.
 

Thanatos2k

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We have already established why preordering is bad, and season passes are PREORDERING DLC, which has to be possibly the dumbest thing ever.
 

rofltehcat

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Seriously, who buys DLC and season passes anymore when I can just get a new game for the same price on Steam instead?
If I really liked a game (so I might want to support the developer) and the DLC seems to be good value from reviews (which it often is not), then I might cherry-pick a little DLC.
Other than that, season passes are really only relevant in games like Battlefield 3 (premium), where not having the DLC means that you can't play the maps 80% of servers are suddenly running, which sucks for a multiplayer title.
 

Weresquirrel

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I've never actually bought a season pass before a game is out. I think the only one I have bought is Borderlands 2's, which I got during the steam sale after all the individual pieces were available and it was cheaper.
 

Something Amyss

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DataSnake said:
The trust issue is why I like Volition's approach to season passes. Namely, that you can buy the season pass at release and have all the A-grade DLC appear in your game as soon as it comes out (in a weird inversion, the B-grade weapon-and-outfit packs are what you have to buy separately) or you can wait until all the DLC is out and then buy the season pass to get all of it at a discount. Hell, the season pass for Saints Row The Third is still [http://store.steampowered.com/app/901805/] available on Steam, and the last piece of DLC dropped more than a year and a half ago!
Errr...That's nowhere near unique to Volition. In fact, that's more or less standard as far as I can tell, since it's pretty much the only way I buy season passes.

The only exception is Borderlands 2, a game where the pass went on sale and became worth it for me even if the last pack was crap.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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You know, you don't have to buy a season pass Jim, it's not mandatory. I have never bought a piece of DLC in my life (cause my internet is shite) and a game should feel complete without it. I don't think it's a publisher problem, but rather a consumer problem. If no-one bought these things (or pre-ordered just as stupid IMHO) then publishers won't sell them. Huzzah! capitalism at work! You can't fault the one who sells shit to make a living, you can fault the one who buys the turd
 

LG Jargon

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ImBigBob said:
I almost never buy DLC. I grabbed a couple for Borderlands 1, and that was it. Unless you count Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, which is about the best argument for DLC you could possibly have.
Actually, I think Blood Dragon was a standalone game built on FC3's engine and design, with changes to gameplay, style and story being the thing that set it apart from the original.

DataSnake said:
The trust issue is why I like Volition's approach to season passes. Namely, that you can buy the season pass at release and have all the A-grade DLC appear in your game as soon as it comes out (in a weird inversion, the B-grade weapon-and-outfit packs are what you have to buy separately) or you can wait until all the DLC is out and then buy the season pass to get all of it at a discount. Hell, the season pass for Saints Row The Third is still [http://store.steampowered.com/app/901805/] available on Steam, and the last piece of DLC dropped more than a year and a half ago!
Ugh...I bought the Full Package on Steam a while back when it went on discount...which came WITH the Season Pass (even though they were no longer making DLC for it) for no damn reason. -.- I couldn't even remove the Season Pass since I was buying the whole damned thing instead of buying the DLC piecemeal (it's more expensive if you buy it piecemeal; it's why I usually prefer to wait until a game has released ALL of its DLC and THEN buy it in a complete package at a discounted price).

If the game is complete, and you're not releasing any more DLC for it..........why are you still selling the goddamned Season Pass?! Greedy fuckers.

OP: Great episode; wish it was a little longer, but you've probably said all that you wanted to say with the time allotted. Thank God for you, Jim.
 

kurokotetsu

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Ruzinus said:
How to Season Pass:

Wait for all the DLC to be out.

Notice that the Season Pass is still sold.

Wait for the Season Pass to get a Steam Sale.

Make purchasing decision.
Yeah this. ONly bought the BL2 Season Pass when I knew it was complete, knew exactly what it included (and that I wanted what it included) and had a Steam Sale, meaning I got four DLC for the price of one. May do it with Bioshock Infitie, depending on how the Burial at Sea DLC turns out. Not preordering any DLC that is for sure.
 

Legion

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Completely and utterly agree with all of it.

Just one thing I would add is that in every case I have seen, you can still buy the season pass once all of the DLC is out, so customers don't have any real reason to complain if they feel they are getting a raw deal, and developers are more relying on customers being impatient than forcing them into something they don't want.

My largest issue with Season Passes is what you mentioned in regards to Killzone, a game for a console that isn't even released having DLC announced and them claiming it as a good thing.

Out of curiosity, I'd love to see your reply to that comment.
 

Thanatos2k

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Zero Serenity said:
What about pre-order bonuses that are DLC? Darksiders II does this and I don't find anything particularly wrong with it.
I had a problem with it, namely I finished the game and the DLC didn't exist. I was told I didn't have the content I bought and couldn't have the content for some indeterminate period of time. I never played that DLC because I had already moved on to other games.

So their preorder "bonus" was absolutely worthless.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Actually, I think preordering gets somewhat too much flak. There are some people I know that love having a game delivered to them right when it's released so they don't have to go out and perhaps wait in a line.

I think map packs need to be addressed. It's a rather serious issue for FPS' and I would like to hear your thoughts on it, Jim.
 

Psychobabble

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Aug 3, 2013
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Fucking brilliant episode Jim. You knocked this one out of the park.

I think the whole idea of season passes and extra DLC content just shows how little respect the industry actually has for it's own customers. Like they think they can do what they like as we will buy any old shit they choose to sell because we have no control over our purchasing behavior and just act like lemmings with credit cards. ...Of course the reason they think like that is because there are so many gamers who act exactly like lemmings with credit cards.

So I agree season passes and over reliance on DLC is bad for consumers and that game studios are dicks for abusing their customers in this manner. However I think gamers themselves share some of the guilt for these selling tactics existence.

I imagine this was filmed before the Expo, but if not, Congratulations for not being at death's door from fan cooties this time round.
 

WarHamster40K

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Personally, I like what Unknown Worlds is doing for Natural Selection 2. They've already released (in addition to the standard patches) two different packs of DLC after release for free. New structures, new abilities, new maps, etc. Since then, they've determined the cost of doing another pack and set up a donation fund. The total cost seems a bit high to me, but I don't know much about video game development costs. In any case, they specifically mention in their <a href=http://youtu.be/Gozvm5P7vzY>video that they won't do season passes or in-game DLC. Given Jim's video, it's worth a look. Being a nifty game help, too. n_n
 

ninjaRiv

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I preordered Arkham Origins and I don't regret a thing. I preordered Splinter Cell Blacklist and loved it. I did this because I researched the product, the companies and people involved and I know I already like the franchises. So preordering can be good for established companies with great names attached. Their products are available for preview, some more than others, and the research can be done.

Problem with Season Passes is, there's no product before you order it. It's all based on faith and trust. Even if you trust the people involved, there's still no product to examine and preview. So... Yeah, good video. Agree with a lot of it.
 

Rylee Fox

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I've bought season passes before, but I have a few rules I follow when it comes to them.

1: All of the DLC included must already be out.

2: The DLC has to get generally good reviews from people.

3: The DLC better have story content.

As a result I've only ever bought the pass for Saints Row 3, and Borderlands 2. For both games all the DLC I even wanted in the first place was part of the pass, so it wasn't an issue.
 

themilo504

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Seasons passes are incredibly pointless on the pc, just wait for steam sales and you can get the dlc cheaper than the season pass.

I?ve sworn off pre ordering games after Rome 2 was released unfinished, the worst part is that I still enjoy Rome 2 but since creative assembly is very busy patching the game it feels pointless to go on since in a few months the game will actually be finished.
 

Pat Hulse

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I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.

That said, everything Jim says still holds more-or-less true. When you buy a Season Pass, you're assuming that you're going to want to buy every ounce of DLC released for that game and you're trusting that the developers and the publishers are going to deliver in a timely manner. And unlike something akin to a pre-order or a Kickstarter pledge, your Season Pass doesn't typically guarantee anything specific. From a consumer standpoint, this is almost never a good deal for you.

I just accept this particular extortion as a necessary evil. I generally like DLC as a concept and in order for DLC to be deemed a worthy investment to most AAA publishers, they have to find a way to cash in on it quickly. They tried on-disc DLC and this led to both underwhelming DLC and pissed-off consumers. So now they're trying to have it both ways. To their credit, I can't really see a better way for them to do it. Yes, they could just make good DLC and sell it piece-mail, but again, statistically their audience will have decreased dramatically as they focused their attention on newer, fresher games.

So long as publishers don't FORCE us to buy Season Passes in order to get certain DLC, I'll just see it as an idiot tax so the developers can take their time to make decent DLC for me to buy later on.
 

fluxy100

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I stand by the fact that a season pass is an option, it is a show of goodwill from the purchaser to the supplier that they trust that the DLC will be good and they are paying them beforehand because of that belief. If someone doesn't want the season pass and decides that they want to wait then that is all and good, they get the upside of seeing the DLC but the downside of a higher price.

I also hate it whenever anyone complains about the Borderlands 2 DLC season pass, to me It's one of the few season passes done extremely well. They stated beforehand what people were going to get, released said DLC they promised and made a few more, of course you're not going to get the other DLC with the season pass, that's not what they promised. To ask otherwise is to ask for something extra when you already payed for a set amount of DLC and received the DLC you payed for.
 

Stabby Joe

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Haven't bought a season pass before the DLC releases BUT I remember the Steam Sales that sold the Borderlands 2 season pass for near half its price so the discount on the expansions was a no brainer, but that is one perk that appears exclusive the PC gaming most of the time (if not all).

I also noticed the clip of Injustice: Gods Among Us, an interesting example as the season pass was for just four extra characters, characters they had planned in advance according to sources for predicted them. The many costumes packs of course weren't and the last two characters were released AFTER the season pass, both being characters fans demanded the most apparently. THEN being a fighting game, there are many huge updates and free compatibility bonuses. And finally in the end it was all made irrelevant with the recent news of an "ultimate edition"..

...so basically they did both right and wrong. Confusing.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Certainly learned my lesson after getting the Borderlands 2 Season Pass.

I loved the game itself and don't regret buying it, but then 4 pieces of DLC on top of that is too much for me.

Season pass = Waste of money in 95% of cases.
 

proghead

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So basically, it's like Kickstarter. Crank out some cash and hope it won't turn into shit. Amirite?
 

Arppis

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I think I saw this "season pass" thing in Gears of War 3 first.

I thought it was pretty stupid from right off the start. But hey, if someone wants to spend their money for unknown, go ahead.
 

ddrkreature

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I only really take part in DLC if I REALLY like the game. I ONLY take part in season passes when I know the content in them is actually worth something. So that about equates to one season pass I've gotten pre DLC release and that was for Borderlands 2 but I knew what was in it because I actually took time to do research. I'm actually pretty surprised the Battlefield and CoD Season Passes weren't brought up (premium is a season pass too). Seriously, $50 for maps is ridiculous. I know it takes time to make, but it fits in with the "paying nearly $100 for a game without all the content in it" argument.

I'm just waiting for that fateful day when developers and publishers make a season pass for a game and don't release all the dlc for it before "dropping support because 3 million copies sold wasn't good enough"
 

redknightalex

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Oh Jim, the stuff that gets recorded at the end of each session is just as good as the damn message, but you really had me laughing this last time. Perfect microphone timing.

I agree that ordering a season pass before understanding what content you get is pretty much bullshit on the publisher's part. Only season pass I've bought was for ACIII when I understood what each one was and wanted all of them (who knows why). The crap Gearbox has pushed out with BL2 has been really, really poor CS when, as you said correctly, the good stuff is outside of that. I'm also annoyed that Gearbox feels the "need" to charge money for raising the level cap: that's a patch add-on content, damn it!

I don't buy season passes for two reasons: I don't know what I'll get and the amount of money I'll save on a gamble doesn't outweigh the disappointment of actually getting poor DLC. I'm not saying they should go away, as in some cases it may work out well for both consumer and publisher (CoD? Do they have passes?), but every customer should think a little harder about what they'll get out of their money.

But good on Levine for creating DLC after the core game was done, eh? Haven't you brought up that funny aspect of Day 1 DLC for months?

(And thank God for Jim!)
 

Pseudonym2

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One of the things no one brought up, not even in the comments is the problems with with hard drive space. The old x-boxes only have 20 gigs and that's not including all the patches and software updates. I don't even buy DLC because it's too much of a hassle to get my console online and have to worry about what to do with all the data.

This used to be the publishers problem because they had to worry about where to store the data, usually on a disk, cartage, ect. Now it's our problem and we're paying the publishers to unload their problems onto ours.
 

Thanatos2k

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Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Ruzinus said:
How to Season Pass:

Wait for all the DLC to be out.

Notice that the Season Pass is still sold.

Wait for the Season Pass to get a Steam Sale.

Make purchasing decision.
Pretty much my modus operandi concerning season passes, except I usually buy the game as well.

I tend to view a season pass announcement as a negative when buying a game and makes me hold off until the inevitable Steam sale rather than buy it at full price.
 

Dr.Awkward

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You'd know what I'd love to see more of instead of season passes?

An "upgrade pack" that combines all the DLC into one plus whatever additional in-game features that come with a Gold, GOTY, Complete Edition, or whatever they call it, instead of just buying each one. GTA IV's EFLC was a great decision, but nobody else caught on.

...However, if they do this, they might as well realize that they need to offer it a rather low price. For people that have waited so long, and possibly paid $40-60 for the game, there's going to be little initiative left to check out those expansions or DLCs.
 

Ickabod

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This episode reminded me of car shopping about a month ago, let me explain.

When I purchased the car, the dealership was very big on wanting to sell me the extended warranty for the car. I would have the original warranty but this would give me another 2 years. It was tempting, but in the end I decided not to buy it, why... Because I had no idea what types of repairs that I was going to need to pay for down the road.

Which brings me back to DLC and season passes. Pre-ordering a season pass is just like buying an extended warranty for pretty much anything that could be repaired. You are paying for the repairs / gameplay before you ever know what it is going to be. In the case of the DLC the DLC could be 2 pieces of junk and 1 good DLC, in that case you've most likely paid $20 for 1 decent DLC. If you ended up just buying the 1 good DLC than it would have been more cost effective.

Bottom line is if the company didn't stand to make more money by offering you a "deal" on something, they wouldn't offer it. Sometimes deals are good (got to love Steam sales). As Jim points out, they already have your money, they don't have to deliver on what they sold you, except in name.
 

Yph

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I disagree with the part about the Borderlands 2 Season pass. Anyone who was confused about what they were getting didn't pay attention, it specifically said that the season pass include 4 DLC packs. And since they cranked out 3 of the DLC before they released the Psycho, it was obvious the final one would be another level expansion.

Unless you're referring to the "Premiere club" which said you were getting the Mechromancr as a pre-order bonus?
 

Proverbial Jon

Not evil, just mildly malevolent
Nov 10, 2009
2,093
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I'm sorry to be that person but... the correct phrase is champing at the bit, not chomping.

The only season pass I've ever bought is for Bioshock Infinite and that was after I had completed the game anyway. I loved the game so much I knew I was going to buy the DLC afterwards despite reviews. Some games just get me that way.

Most times DLC doesn't interest me anyway unless it's a significant addition to the story.
 

OuendanCyrus

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Jun 16, 2010
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I only ever buy DLC for a game when I've completed it, loved it so much, and wanted more, which is why I bought the extra chapters for Fire Emblem: Awakening. Stuff like bonus weapons, extra EXP don't interest me at all.
 

MonkeyPunch

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Feb 20, 2008
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Awesome episode. The last bit was very well said.
Mic dropping a la Jim was funny too.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Aug 12, 2009
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I will pre-order a game early at GameStop just for the simple fact that I like having a sort of 'game bank' where I can go in and make small payments here and there on upcoming titles I'm interested in as I get the cash for them. This has helped me out a lot in the long run and I don't mind pre-ordering a game. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that concept. Pre-ordering DLC though, that's another concept entirely.

Just as Jim said, I'd rather play a game first to find out if it's worth expanding upon. In instances like Bioshock Infinite, there are obviously only going to be two of the three DLCs offered by the season pass that will even be worth. An arena-style shoot-'em-up gallery? No thanks. A story told through two DLCs that changes up the story and setting almost completely? Hell yes. But I could have only bought those two on my own and they're the same goddamn price as the season pass, only I'm out money about 7 months ago and still have nothing to show for it.

Halo 4's season pass frustrated me even more - almost all of the map packs released under the season pass were garbage, and now there's a new DLC that not only adds new maps, but other gameplay features such as new armor and armor powers. Oh, and it's not included in the season pass despite being just as expensive as previous map packs. Yeah, that's bullshit. One of the map packs I never even use because I don't play in games small enough to use them.

I'm pretty much done with any kind of season pass. I can see them being great for the dedicated CoD player that you KNOW is going to get all of the DLC anyway, but it all seems pointless for me. The two games I thought I'd really want to have the pass for ended up disappointing me so greatly that I'll be passing up any future season pass purchases.

Yph said:
I disagree with the part about the Borderlands 2 Season pass. Anyone who was confused about what they were getting didn't pay attention, it specifically said that the season pass include 4 DLC packs. And since they cranked out 3 of the DLC before they released the Psycho, it was obvious the final one would be another level expansion.
Yeah but that's just it, Jim's argument is mostly that you never know what DLC packs you're going to get with those ambiguously labled '4 DLC packs.' I think a lot of us would rather have had an extra character than a level expansion.

Halo 4 - 3 DLC Packs. I had no way of knowing the only good one wouldn't be included in the season pass. It's purposefully left ambiguous so that they don't have to explain themselves to you when they screw you over.
 

MB202

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Sep 14, 2008
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I buy season passes of TV show son iTunes, though I can safely say that video games are a might different, since while there's... usually a good chance that you'll get your entire season's worth of episodes with a TV show, there's no guarantee that video games publishers will follow through on all the DLC they promise in a season pass.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
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I personally enjoy waiting for a year or so after all DLC is out and then buying it during a sale. If no sale ever shows up or if it isn't worth buying to begin with then I just never see it.
 

Erttheking

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Probably why I've only bought two season passes in recent years. The Borderlands 2 season pass after everything was out so it was more like me grabbing a bulk package and the damn thing was on sale anyway, and Metro Last Light because I trust 4A that much.
 

caballitomalo

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Aug 12, 2009
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How can you blame them for trying to charge customers for content that's to even be developed. I would love to that in my line of work, specially if by doing so I'm not even required to give even a time table of when the content to be delivered.

Pay now and get the product when we say so. You don't have to be a master mind to see that load of BS on that model.

But the game industry just seems to be spoiled rotten to the point where they actually make demands on the users (at least that's the impression I get by looking at their business models and listening to guys like Jim).

I tell you this, let go of the hype machine. Don't believe the hype, don't drink the koolaid and never, ever pre-order anything. Heck, I don't even buy games on release day anymore. Fight for your money friends cause the people making this decisions aren't and never will.
 

Darth_Payn

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I don't preorder games very often, unless I know for sure I'll like it, and there's not an insane amount of VARIETY of preorder bonuses depending on which store you PO from (I'm looking worriedly in your direction Assassin's Creed franchise. III and IV coming with flags, mini-statues, books, and whatnot along WITH bonus missions and weapons?) and I wait until I complete the main game before deciding on what DLC to get. I'm odd that way. So this Season Pass nonsense is just that, and I ain't buying it.
 

Yph

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May 22, 2013
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Sheo_Dagana said:
Yph said:
I disagree with the part about the Borderlands 2 Season pass. Anyone who was confused about what they were getting didn't pay attention, it specifically said that the season pass include 4 DLC packs. And since they cranked out 3 of the DLC before they released the Psycho, it was obvious the final one would be another level expansion.
Yeah but that's just it, Jim's argument is mostly that you never know what DLC packs you're going to get with those ambiguously labled '4 DLC packs.' I think a lot of us would rather have had an extra character than a level expansion.
It was announced here http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=144987 that the season pass would consist of "4 add-on campaign packs" that include new areas to explore, new adventures to undertake, new enemies to overcome and more".

Now, I get that not everyone reads the forums, but the information was there.
 

PunkRex

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Feb 19, 2010
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I think the Borderlands DLC was actually kind of well done as the season pass told you from the get go what you were getting, the first 4 story DLC. The rest, extra heads, colours, etc was the fluff you could drop a few quid on.

This is, of course, helped by the fact that I enjoyed the game and played it alot along with my brother and our friends so not to risky a bet I suppose... couldn't think of another mordern game i'd do it for though...
 

Zipa

batlh bIHeghjaj.
Dec 19, 2010
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Well said Jim, I have never bought in to this season pass crock of shit thankfully. You can guarantee it will all end up in a Steam sale eventually so you can grab it then at a even better price.

Also good to see a mic drop, reminds me of pre Escapist Jimquisitions.
 

Comic Sans

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Sheo_Dagana said:
Yph said:
I disagree with the part about the Borderlands 2 Season pass. Anyone who was confused about what they were getting didn't pay attention, it specifically said that the season pass include 4 DLC packs. And since they cranked out 3 of the DLC before they released the Psycho, it was obvious the final one would be another level expansion.
Yeah but that's just it, Jim's argument is mostly that you never know what DLC packs you're going to get with those ambiguously labled '4 DLC packs.' I think a lot of us would rather have had an extra character than a level expansion.

Halo 4 - 3 DLC Packs. I had no way of knowing the only good one wouldn't be included in the season pass. It's purposefully left ambiguous so that they don't have to explain themselves to you when they screw you over.
Except in the case of Borderlands 2 they clearly announced that the season pass only covered the 4 story campaigns, not the characters or cosmetics. I saw the announcement in several places. They didn't at any point just ambiguously say they'd release some DLC, they said exactly what we'd be getting. In my opinion, Gearbox handled it fine with BL2.
 

Colt47

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The root of this entire problem is trying to sell a product before it's out yet and even proven to work in the way someone intends. In the long run, it's basically trying to play a balance sheet out of consumer loyalty to see how much they can wring out of individual fans before finally mothballing whatever franchise they are attempting to sell.

Heck, part of the reason they are even doing seasonal passes is so that they can sell DLC to people who normally wouldn't buy it because they finish the game and move on before it gets released. This is especially true of linear single player titles like Bioshock Infinite, where once someone beats the game chances are they probably wont come back for DLC.
 

Sectan

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I've always thought it was pretty shitty of developers to release a season pass *ALL FUTURE DLC!* There isn't even an asterisk that says "some". Even at THAT they can decide what to include or exclude from the season passes. It just reeks of something horrible that I can't articulate.
 

Ticklefist

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Jul 19, 2010
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We're getting a bit of an echo here but I agree that season passes are mostly harmless. The offer doesn't go away after the game is released so there's no need to pre-order them. They're normally pretty up front about their content. They extend the life of games at a reduced cost. The DLC itself may not be up to your standards but that hasn't got much to do with selling it to you at a discount.
 

Rad Party God

Party like it's 2010!
Feb 23, 2010
3,560
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The only Season Pass I've ever bought in my life has been that of Darksiders 2, I already finished it, loved it and I wanted more, so I went ahead and bought it.

Also, I already knew what it included and it was at a discount, wich this game also applies the mess of not including every bit of DLC on it's Season Pass a la Borderlands 2.

For $5 I can't complain, but I definitely wouldn't buy it at full price.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
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My logic for not buying a season pass is quite simple. I don't know what the content is going to be, and by the time it's out I'll be done with the game anyway and move on to something else. If I want the DLC later on, I can get it for less than the season pass. It's not going anywhere.
 

LordLundar

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The food analogy is inaccurate Jim. A more accurate one would be that you buy and get a 3 course dinner (the game itself) and being told to pat in advance for the promise a "special" dessert. You have no idea what it is but you're expected to pay for something that could range from an expensive cake to a bowl of toxic mush. That is assuming you do get the dessert given the pastry chef could quit in the next 5 minutes.

THAT's a more accurate analogy. Season Passes sell you on the promise of a vague unknown. You don't know what it is or even if it will come out. And the game industry isn't trustworthy enough to make such a promise worth the time to say it.
 

Rezeak

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Jan 26, 2011
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I don't see how Bioshock 3 did anything wrong.

They put the season pass up saying they hadn't even started on it yet and that it will all be release by March 2014 so unless they miss that march 2014 deadline people don't really have much to complain about except they put money down on something that they had little information about which is there fault.

As for Boarderlands 2 they clearly said 4 pieces of DLC only and clarified if you looked it up that is was campaign DLC which they then supplied. Then people complained that it didn't include other pieces that they would of preferred like characters, these are people that should of waited to see what the content was.

As far as season passes go they are optional and unless it's being used to complete a uncompleted game then it's really more up to a customer if they want to blindly throw money at a company.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Lol, I actually said it... And then I laughed.
Thanks Jim, keep it up. And eventually I might even buy YOUR season pass :p
 

Vausch

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I have only bought 1 season pass, and that was Borderlands 2's during the steam sale. Got it, Mechromancer, and Psycho pack for less than 5 bucks.

That's really the best justification I can see for a season pass. Less about getting the content when it comes out in the future, more a bundle pack to get a bigger discount. Then again, that's essentially a GOTY edition so...yeah.
 

Pat Hulse

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Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Obviously that's possible, but I'd prefer having DLC as a viable business model for a number of reasons:

1) Development time is hell and it's difficult for producers to find the right balance between focusing on fine-tuning the game engine and the mechanics and producing the actual content for the game. All too often a game will ship before it's ready because the developers were focused more on cranking out a large amount of content rather than perfecting the core gameplay. A DLC model makes it more economical to focus on quality over quantity.
2) Too many developers reinvent the wheel even though it's often unnecessary to do so. How many full-priced sequels end up just being recreated copies of the previous game with new assets and content? How many sequels could just as easily be produced as DLC for a fraction of the cost? Imagine instead of rushing out sequels every 2 or 3 years, developers just made one really solid franchise entry per generation and produced seasons of episodic content like "The Walking Dead" does?
3) It theoretically allows developers to take more risks since DLC tends to be lower-investment. They can try out unusual ideas or test out different mechanics or give younger, less experienced (but often more ambitious) developers a chance to cut their teeth on something smaller-scale in the AAA industry, perhaps leading to more innovation in a perpetually stagnating high-budget industry.

Self-contained games are fine, but DLC has benefits beyond simply milking more money from the audience. While I'll certainly admit that DLC hasn't historically done much to benefit the consumer in the majority of cases, there are exceptions that prove that the model can be beneficial for all involved parties, including the consumer. Whereas if we stick to self-contained games, publishers will have to go back to losing out on used game purchases and developers will go back to suffering unforgiving crunch-times and heart-breaking compromises.
 

AstaresPanda

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Thought the idea of DLC was to replace expansion packs to give you content faster smaller bits taking advantage of digital distribution and extend the life spam of a games single and multiplayer(for pc gamers anyway) then with consoles being able to do this it made good sense for them. But now...... the fuck !? we get unfinished games then the rest being sold to you in the guise of "dlc". And its got to the point now where they dont even give a crap about what DLC they sell you. And they seem to have drifted far away from the idea of extending a games life, a year later they showing you trailers for the sequal and taking the season pass money from you.

Now being a pure PC gamer since the last console I had was a ps1 the only experiences ive had with this DLC was Space Marine. And that is a great example. I followed that game for awhile while in was in the works and went a pre-orderd the limited edition (purity seal lol) And they seem to have cut alot i saw from the early trailers. Dreads, Tyranids, Killa Kanz. But then months later they bring crappy half assed game modes out and the rest out in DLC effectively splitting the player base with the people who could afford to blow 25% of the cost of the dam game dlc and those that could. And now, Space Marine is pretty much dead.

money money money simple ass GREED
 

Paradoxrifts

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Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Please.

The only way to go back to them 'good old days' when your average gamer played the same game for months and months on end would be to pass and enforce a new law where everyone is only ever allowed to buy a single game on their birthday and at Christmas.
 

I Max95

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I think that they can be used right if the developers:

A. include ALL DLC in the season pass

and

B. allow players the ability to buy the season pass even after every piece of DLC has been released, so that they can make an educated decision
 

Seracen

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The ONLY season pass I have ever bought is for Injustice...as I trusted Neverrealms, especially after the value seen in MK.

I have to say, I am not pleased at having to buy Zatanna and Martian Manhunter, which were not included. Nor do I relish having to buy the myriad of skins which were released BEFORE the "season" was over, but were still not included.

So I am trading the game in, and will buy it again (used) when the GOTY version comes out. Come to think of it, this is what I'll likely do for all fighting games hence.

Also what I'll do for other assinine franchises that do this, such as Batman: Arkham City...so much money wasted that I could have saved by simply waiting 4 months.

What's truly sad is that I no longer like these companies/dev teams as a result. Even though I trust them to make amazing games, I don't trust that I'll get good value for my money.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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I can list my last two preorders and my next one
-Dark Souls
-Blood Dragon
-Dark Souls 2

Other than that every game I own, I waited for on sale or for the GOTY. More fool anyone too impatient to wait
 

hermes

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Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

If you start working on DLC before the game is released, even when there are legitimate reasons (artists and writers ended their assignments long before the game is ready, and are literally waiting in their desks for some job), people will claim you are cutting stuff out of the game, even when the game is long, and complete, and they haven't even played it.

If you don't start working on DLC until after the game is released, people will complain that they are being charged over an unsatisfying promise, that the content takes a lot to be done and will forget about the game entirely.
 

Habballah

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Sep 25, 2013
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I've pre ordered one game ufc 2010. I liked the game but it was the last ufc game i bothered with.

Um, i'm not sure Jim needed to blast season passes. I think most gamers are smart enough to see those as bad ideas.
 

Spud of Doom

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I only bought 1 season pass; Borderlands 2. And honestly, I don't think I got ripped off. I knew going into it that it was paying for 4 chunks of expansion DLC, and there might be other DLC that would not be included. IMO the content included in it was good enough to justify the price.
 

Thanatos2k

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Pat Hulse said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Obviously that's possible, but I'd prefer having DLC as a viable business model for a number of reasons:

1) Development time is hell and it's difficult for producers to find the right balance between focusing on fine-tuning the game engine and the mechanics and producing the actual content for the game. All too often a game will ship before it's ready because the developers were focused more on cranking out a large amount of content rather than perfecting the core gameplay. A DLC model makes it more economical to focus on quality over quantity.
I disagree. It's done the opposite - devs now are being split off from the main teams and shunted onto DLC development INSTEAD of perfecting the main game. Worse, console games are starting to acquire one of the few downsides to PC game development - the "we'll fix it in a patch" syndrome where the initial product is flawed and they'll fix it later (perhaps in a DLC!). Despicable companies like Capcom even have the nerve to include bug fixes and balance changes IN THE DLC, essentially charging you for patches.

2) Too many developers reinvent the wheel even though it's often unnecessary to do so. How many full-priced sequels end up just being recreated copies of the previous game with new assets and content? How many sequels could just as easily be produced as DLC for a fraction of the cost? Imagine instead of rushing out sequels every 2 or 3 years, developers just made one really solid franchise entry per generation and produced seasons of episodic content like "The Walking Dead" does?
Episodic content is episodic content - that's not exactly DLC - that's you buying the actual game in sequential pieces as it gets made, not buying the whole game and then getting extra crap shoved onto it (or pulled from it to sell back to you).

3) It theoretically allows developers to take more risks since DLC tends to be lower-investment. They can try out unusual ideas or test out different mechanics or give younger, less experienced (but often more ambitious) developers a chance to cut their teeth on something smaller-scale in the AAA industry, perhaps leading to more innovation in a perpetually stagnating high-budget industry.
DLC's been around a while now - when has this EVER happened? The closest I can see would be something like Far Cry Blood Dragon which is more of an expansion or mod than DLC. DLC never produces anything that is more innovative than the original game. Modders do - and that's free for everyone.
 

Thanatos2k

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Paradoxrifts said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Please.

The only way to go back to them 'good old days' when your average gamer played the same game for months and months on end would be to pass and enforce a new law where everyone is only ever allowed to buy a single game on their birthday and at Christmas.
Why do you need them to play your game for months? You make a game, you sell it, they play it, they finish it. You get money, they get a complete experience, they become your fans if they like it to buy your next game, and they will tell other people who haven't heard of your game how good it is.
 

Evil Smurf

Admin of Catoholics Anonymous
Nov 11, 2011
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What if you know you are going to buy all the DLC? Is it okay then?
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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A proper smackdown. I don't particularly like DLC, I hate the concept of Season Passes, I hate the concept of preordering, and for some companies to then not include some DLC in that, or to be winging it when it comes to the actual content, is despicable.
 

rasputin0009

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I trust DICE enough for me to pre-order Battlefield 4 and its "season pass" (Battlefield Premium). They've always given me a fun game that entertains me for at least a hundred hours a year. The only other season passes I've had were Battlefield 3's premium, and Borderlands 2's season pass. In the case of Borderlands, my buddy gifted it to me as soon as we finished the campaign (after the first 2 DLC's came out). So I can't really complain.

What does surprise me is the lack of Blizzard asking to pre-order Diablo 3's season pass. They must have planned ahead to not support the game post-launch, looking at the lack of fixes and everything else they planned on releasing with the game like a proper versus-mode. Oh, I guess they have that expansion pack planned, but who knows if it's going to include any content. It might just be a purchase of a promise to have an expansion pack made.
 

Mad1Cow

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Agree with ya point there Mr Jim, never agreed with Season Passes ever, can't see the good in them, mm-hmm.

On to more important matters, does anyone else think he's look thinner? Not to say he looked better/worse in previous videos I just think he looks rather slimming in this video...good job Jim, now I can't stop staring at your manly pex.
 

lancar

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The only DLC I ever bought as part of a season pass was the one for Borderlands 2, and I got that long after the release of Dragons Keep. There was a good sale going on on Steam, so figured I'd buy the season pass since it was cheaper and wanted all 4 campaigns anyway. I guess that makes it more of a DLC bundle rather than a true season pass, but eh, technicalities :).

I've been very restrictive with pre-ordering lately, but made an exception with Rome II... and immediately regretted it come release. I thought my method of relying on the 3 day US-EU release date discrepancy to both read reviews and get the pre-order bonuses would pay off again, but this time it didn't work out. The game arrived broken as hell and looking like shit, despite the glorious reviews showered onto the internets. Guess I should've waited for the user reviews...

Oh well.
 

chozo_hybrid

Jund 'Em Out!
Jul 15, 2009
3,456
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ninjaRiv said:
I preordered Arkham Origins and I don't regret a thing. I preordered Splinter Cell Blacklist and loved it. I did this because I researched the product, the companies and people involved and I know I already like the franchises. So preordering can be good for established companies with great names attached. Their products are available for preview, some more than others, and the research can be done.

Problem with Season Passes is, there's no product before you order it. It's all based on faith and trust. Even if you trust the people involved, there's still no product to examine and preview. So... Yeah, good video. Agree with a lot of it.
Arkham Origins has a season pass already? Jeez. When was that announced, I've pre-ordered the game because I'm confident about that purchase, but will wait until all details are revealed on that before getting. I just hope the game isn't having content cut out of it.

I agree with his video too. The only season pass I ever bought was for injustice because I would have got the characters regardless, I like my fighting games and more characters was fine with me in this instance.

EDIT: So the skins I get with my pre-order are part of it, lame. Wasn't the reason I've pre-ordered, want the physical goodies, but still. That's supposed to be ab onus for preordering, at least for a while anyway.

Just looked it up, they say the story bit will be well worth the asking price. All the costumes in it are more like bonuses. In that case, I'll wait and see rather the buy it blind.
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
3,847
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Season passes that don't include all the content are the biggest pieces of crap around in terms of DLC. That garbage should be lawsuit worthy.

It isn't, but it should be, and we should sue the pants off of anyone who does it. Especially Gearbox who we should also sue the pants off of for Aliens Colonial Marines.

What I'm trying to say is that season passes that don't give you all the DLC are bullshit and so is Gearbox.
 

MDSnowman

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I've bought ONE season pass in my life. Bioshock Infinite... I LOVE that game and and currently slogging my way through in 1999 mode. However, when I saw the first DLC I nearly lost it. I liked the combat well enough, but in a game where you could travel anywhere in time and space thus opening up some amazing options for story based DLC they gave me combat challenges and recycled maps as arenas. It was an insult.

I'm holding out hope for the Rapture return DLC packs, but I thought they had beat that setting to death in Bioshock 2 so I'm still not especially thrilled.
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
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fluxy100 said:
I stand by the fact that a season pass is an option, it is a show of goodwill from the purchaser to the supplier that they trust that the DLC will be good and they are paying them beforehand because of that belief. If someone doesn't want the season pass and decides that they want to wait then that is all and good, they get the upside of seeing the DLC but the downside of a higher price.
...Wrong. If you don't buy the season pass before DLC is out, you get the upside of seeing the DLC. That's it. There is no downside because they still sell the season pass at the discounted price after all the DLC is out.

Also Borderlands 2 is a season pass done completely the wrong way. They either knew they were going to make more DLC in the first place and intentionally held some of it back so they could still sell even more DLC to people who already paid for what's supposed to be the "get all the DLC" ticket, or they didn't know they were going to make more DLC in the first place but decided "fuck the few loyal fans we have left after the Aliens Colonial Marines fiasco" and made them pay full price for said DLC even though they could have given it for free or sold it at a discounted price to people who already bought the season pass.

I mean shit, look at Rockstar. I remember multiple free MP packs for Red Dead Redemption because they wanted to thank fans for making the game such a success. They COULD have charged for the co-op missions and that one skin pack, but they didn't because they aren't money grubbing assholes like Gearbox. And isn't all the DLC for GTA V's online mode supposed to be free? Before someone puts out that shitty "companies exist to make money" defense for Gearbox, so does Rockstar. The difference, as always, is in the approach. Gearbox is trying to make money by greedily milking their customers for all they possibly can and Rockstar is trying to make money by breeding loyalty among their fans so that they're all the more willing to buy their next game. One approach works better than the other, and it when it comes time that both Gearbox and Rockstar are asking me for $60 for their latest game, I'm going to give it to Rockstar because they haven't tried to brutally fuck me up the butt like Gearbox has between Borderlands 2 and Aliens Colonial Marines.

What was it Jim said in that reply tweet to the Killzone developer? Something about being naively optimistic? I think that's how I would have to describe anyone who sees the Borderlands 2 Season Pass bullshit as a good thing.

MDSnowman said:
I've bought ONE season pass in my life. Bioshock Infinite... I LOVE that game and and currently slogging my way through in 1999 mode. However, when I saw the first DLC I nearly lost it. I liked the combat well enough, but in a game where you could travel anywhere in time and space thus opening up some amazing options for story based DLC they gave me combat challenges and recycled maps as arenas. It was an insult.

I'm holding out hope for the Rapture return DLC packs, but I thought they had beat that setting to death in Bioshock 2 so I'm still not especially thrilled.
I've bought two.

The first was the Rockstar Pass for LA Noire (hey fancy that, Rockstar did something right again). They told you right up front what you'd be getting. And I mean they literally told you what you were getting, it wasn't ambiguously telling you what you were getting. They also included ALL of the DLC, the story stuff and the little bits and bobs like an extra suit or a gun which other season passes are so keen on not including.

Which brings me to the second season pass I bought, which was Gears of War 3. First off, it was overpriced at half the cost of the damn game. Second, they didn't really say what content you were getting. Most of it turned out to be map packs that could barely be used due to how few people bought the maps. The only one you could use was one they decided to give away for free to everyone, which was nice because now I could use the maps I paid for, but was bullshit because there was no compensation for people who paid for the maps only to have them go free shortly thereafter. And finally, remember how I just said that games love keeping the little stuff like suits and guns from the season pass? Gears 3 did that, if you wanted weapon or armor skins you had to pay extra even if you already paid half the cost of the fucking game for the season pass. Ultimately there was only one good DLC in the entire season pass for that game.

It was the first and last time I bought a season pass blind just to "support" a game I liked. One blatant ripoff was all I needed to learn my lesson, although I'm still embarrassed that I had to get ripped off even once to see it.
 

irok

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I preordered borderlands 2 and as the first dlc was released I picked up the season pass because I trust gearbox when it comes to borderlands as 1 had amazing dlc content and that's pretty much as far as it goes, no one else gets nothing as no one else deserves it.
 

ShadowHamster

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A.) I've bought season passes, but it's very rare. I think part of the appeal is it costs the developer nothing to offer season passes since they already have the plan for the dlc. By giving a SLIGHT discount to it, they can offer that dlc upfront and get a certain estimate of the diehard-going-to-buy-it-no-matter what crowd. Only season pass I've bought after checking is Borderlands 2, and I appreciated it, I was going to get the dlc for it anyways. Note, that was a sequel, and I loved the first game and all it's dlc. I also didn't purchase it right away.

B.) Sometimes season passes are offered for quite awhile after the release of the game. I bought mine instead of a game with what I budgeted for entertainment funds when the second dlc for the game came out. Once you know you'll get at least 2 of them, it can be worth it.

C.) Like many things in this industry, my problem isn't necessarily with the option, but with how often the option is pushed. It's very rare that such an option is appealing, but it's pushed on evey god damn game.
 

The_Echo

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The only season pass I've ever bought was for Borderlands 2, and it is a bit disappointing that Gaige and Krieg aren't a part of that package.

But for $20 I did get a significant amount of content. And either way I actually got the base game for free so I don't have many qualms about that decision.

I don't see myself ever buying another season pass ever again. Mostly because the sort of games I play aren't the kind to include those (the only other that comes to mind being BioShock Infinite), and because I only bother with story-based DLC. So buying a season pass and getting, say, a new multiplayer mode or something... it's a waste for me.
 

fluxy100

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mjc0961 said:
fluxy100 said:
I stand by the fact that a season pass is an option, it is a show of goodwill from the purchaser to the supplier that they trust that the DLC will be good and they are paying them beforehand because of that belief. If someone doesn't want the season pass and decides that they want to wait then that is all and good, they get the upside of seeing the DLC but the downside of a higher price.
...Wrong. If you don't buy the season pass before DLC is out, you get the upside of seeing the DLC. That's it. There is no downside because they still sell the season pass at the discounted price after all the DLC is out.

Also Borderlands 2 is a season pass done completely the wrong way. They either knew they were going to make more DLC in the first place and intentionally held some of it back so they could still sell even more DLC to people who already paid for what's supposed to be the "get all the DLC" ticket, or they didn't know they were going to make more DLC in the first place but decided "fuck the few loyal fans we have left after the Aliens Colonial Marines fiasco" and made them pay full price for said DLC even though they could have given it for free or sold it at a discounted price to people who already bought the season pass.

I mean shit, look at Rockstar. I remember multiple free MP packs for Red Dead Redemption because they wanted to thank fans for making the game such a success. They COULD have charged for the co-op missions and that one skin pack, but they didn't because they aren't money grubbing assholes like Gearbox. And isn't all the DLC for GTA V's online mode supposed to be free? Before someone puts out that shitty "companies exist to make money" defense for Gearbox, so does Rockstar. The difference, as always, is in the approach. Gearbox is trying to make money by greedily milking their customers for all they possibly can and Rockstar is trying to make money by breeding loyalty among their fans so that they're all the more willing to buy their next game. One approach works better than the other, and it when it comes time that both Gearbox and Rockstar are asking me for $60 for their latest game, I'm going to give it to Rockstar because they haven't tried to brutally fuck me up the butt like Gearbox has between Borderlands 2 and Aliens Colonial Marines.

What was it Jim said in that reply tweet to the Killzone developer? Something about being naively optimistic? I think that's how I would have to describe anyone who sees the Borderlands 2 Season Pass bullshit as a good thing.
First off, I was incorrect in my first point I forgot that for some strange reason Borderlands and other developers sell season passes after the DLC is already out, My mistake.

Secondly, Regardless of whether Gearbox knew they would make more DLC or not They established what they were going to offer from the get go, let people buy that and then delivered on what they said they were going to sell with good quality DLC, that is how a season pass should work. It's buying DLC beforehand, it doesn't matter how much DLC is released as long as the Company upholds their end of the bargain with DLC that is consistent with the quality of the game.

Now onto your comparison with Rockstar, Imagine I go to a restaurant every other day and order a Salad and Burger. Then one day the Chef decides that because I've come to the restaurant so often he wants to add a dessert onto my Salad and Burger for free even though I only payed for the salad and burger. Is that good and nice of the chef? Of course it is, but to then go to any other restaurant I frequent and accuse them of being moneygrubbing assholes because they didn't do the same thing is a stupid thing for me to do. For one company to give something away for free doesn't make their competitors moneygrubbing assholes, it just makes that company nicer, that's all
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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The best way to discourage the further ruination of the game industry would be not to buy next-gen consoles because everyone knows ahead of time the companies are going to be adding on a bunch of fees, passes, DLC, and DRM to rip gamers off.

I know people don't like to hear it, if you buy next-gen and giving the companies money, you will only be making gaming worse as a result.

Or at the very least, you can't complain about shitty treatment and rip-offs if you do buy it, because you knew what you were getting when you got a next-gen system.
 

Spaceman Spiff

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I loved this Jimquisition and I totally agree with Jim. We as consumers should be more careful with our money. Companies will make more games and DLC because it makes them money. There's no need for us to pay in advance and allow them to ship whatever they deem acceptable. I learned my lesson from the Borderlands 2 season pass, and narrowly avoided fucking myself with an Aliens: Colonial Marines preorder.
 

Alfredo Jones

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I never buy season passes. I'd rather wait for the inevitable "Game of the Year" edition. In some rare cases though a season pass will continue to be sold after all the DLC has been released, making it a decent discount pack if it contains all of the DLC you want. Borderlands 2 and Darksiders 2 are good examples of this.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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I mean...not that I disagree or anything, but isn't this all on us anyway?
If what most of the people are saying here is true- all of the DLC in those season passes will be available as separate DLC anyway. Therefore, the whole season pass boom is nothing but our fault because we bought into it happily.

To be honest. Half of these practices wouldn't be happening if we as the consumer didn't buy into it all the time.
 

Baneat

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What about Season Passes for episodic games like Telltale's? It works pretty well there.
 

Kameburger

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Apr 7, 2012
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The worst part is these passes really aren't aimed at adults who earn their own income. The worst part is honestly that these games are aimed at kids who have easy and unfiltered access to their parents money, who don't know anything about season passes let alone DLC. Honestly if you wanted to end season passes get it on like one of those evening news watch shows like the fox problem solvers or something. I mean a lot of us may by DLC but as a working human being with a job, I haven't even bought the DLC I wanted just because I don't have time.
 

bug_of_war

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hawk533 said:
Curious what Jim would think if Payday 2 offers a DLC pass when the first piece of DLC finally drops for it. I know he celebrated the ability of that studio to make a profit on "only" 1 million copies sold.

I've already put 100 hours into the game, so if they offer a pass, I think I'll buy it. I don't think the pass is a bad idea if it's not offered until after the game comes out. That way everyone can determine if they want to keep playing or not.
It's a pity Payday 2 was a HUGE let down with the pre-order "bonus". And it's constant updating where in which half the time they are having to fix the previous update makes the game more or less redundant.

Yeah, Payday 2 was the last game I pre-ordered and it was the first one to disappoint me to the point where I wish I bought it as an Xbox 360 title so I could've traded it in and gotten some money back. I never bought a season pass because I generally don't buy DLC (In fact the only DLC I have bought was for Skyrim, but I got it all in the legendary edition).

So yeah, I couldn't agree quite more with this episode. Normally I'm all for DLC and pre-ordering, but recent events have me starting to turn the other way.
 

ron1n

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Jan 28, 2013
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Yes. So glad someone called out developers on this bs.

DLC &#8800; Product Support!

The absolute worst offenders on this of late in my opinion, have undoubtedly been Creative Assembly.

Shogun 2, Co-Op campaign. Broken on release and never fixed. Of course this didn't stop them from releasing no less than 7 DLC packs, 2 expansion packs and more DLC for the expansions. Oh and of course they never did fix the Co-Op campagin so it's STILL broken in Rome 2, along with the rest of the game. Wonder how long until they start jamming some more unit packs down our throats?

Oh wait, they already did with the Greek States pack.

That comment by Steven Ter Heide pretty much proves just how full of shit the industry is. The only question remaining, is whether or not they do the required mental gymnastics to believe it, or they are knowingly screwing over their customers.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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see Jim, when you make content on things that actually matter, not some made up controversies, your videos are quite enjoyable
 

MrHide-Patten

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Aliens Colon-anal Marines destroyed Jim. He was once a boy filled with hope and dreams until Gearbox fired a blunderbust full of shit at him... there were no diamonds

After going through Siants Row Thirds Season Pass (with sub par DLC, if I'm being honest) and Darksiders 2 bug riddled expansions that crippled the game (I can't even play the last piece of content I played for because the game keeps on crashing) I've only ever bought another for Bioshock Infinite, because I really liked the game. But after the long wait I'm sort of wary and Bioshocks honeymoon period has solidly worn off (overtaken by The Last of Us as my personal GOTY), and to have the next DLC not reallt tie up any loose ends with Bioshocks plot but to go off in some alternate reality, I am sort of miffed.

So I'm happy that all the DLC for SR4 was delayed in Australia, stops me pissing my money away.
 

Kraakdoos

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So the simple answer for Irrational is to sell the Season Pass when the DLC first becomes available. When they have a reasonable idea of what's to come a la the Bioshock Infinite DLC reveal.
 

KungFuJazzHands

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I'm against season passes just on principal, especially when material is purposefully left out. That said, I did get the SP for Borderlands 2 (because I love that game), and also for Saints Row the Third (included in the Complete Package release) and Darksiders 2 (got it really, really, really cheap). I'll basically buy 'em when I feel the vanilla game is lacking content.

mjc0961 said:
Also Borderlands 2 is a season pass done completely the wrong way. They either knew they were going to make more DLC in the first place and intentionally held some of it back so they could still sell even more DLC to people who already paid for what's supposed to be the "get all the DLC" ticket, or they didn't know they were going to make more DLC in the first place but decided "fuck the few loyal fans we have left after the Aliens Colonial Marines fiasco" and made them pay full price for said DLC even though they could have given it for free or sold it at a discounted price to people who already bought the season pass.
That's a good synopsis of what pissed me off so much about the Borderlands 2 Season Pass. Gearbox made it sound like there would be minimal DLC available outside of the SP, and then they turned around and admitted to secretly working on tons more content that would be available in yet another Pass. They got greedy. Guess that's just par for the course for them now.
 

leviadragon99

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Welp, I learned my lesson after the Borderlands 2 season pass didn't include all the DLC released for it, be nice if there had been an object lesson about that before I'd gotten that, but oh well, at least I enjoyed the content it did provide...
 

yatterman1

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never bought the season passes my attitude was wait for it to come out and buy it as it shows up. but then back in day usually i wait for game of year version (did for fallout games and couple other i had.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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if our world was like dungeons and dragons and I was a deity with the "Irony" domain I would make jim release a jimquisition season pass the next day

im so ripped

also great video
 

LostCrusader

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Feb 3, 2011
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I never liked the idea of season passes, and have generally regretted getting them. Pre-ordering them really does just seem like its the studio asking for a handout so they can fling a turd at you for a few months after the game comes out. Although the one case where I think I would like season passes is if the company used them as the pre-order bonus for getting the main game. That would even excuse them not including some of the later DLC (what they seem to want to do anyway), and it would in most cases make the risk of pre-ordering the game worth it for me.
 

mada7

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In general Ive found that I never want to buy more than 1 piece of good dlc for a game. The only exceptions for me were borderlands 1 and Valkyria Chronicles where I bought 3 pieces of dlc. By the time the second piece of dlc comes out for most games Ive lost interest and moved on and a dinky side mission with no story relevance isn't going to cut it for me.
 

Brockyman

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Reasons To Pass On Season Passes

You were promised an episode on season passes, in the wake of Jimquisition complaing about downloadable content. There is a season for all things, and that season has come to pass.

Watch Video

Jim, I agree with your premise, however, I want to use your line of "Customer Choice" in this context.

I think the issue isn't just that company's offer pre-orders or season passes, but the consumer also needs to do research. Most season passes are available for the lifetime of the game, and after playing it, he/she may want to buy all the DLC at the reduced price. For example, someone who enjoy's a first person shooter with a group of friends may know that they want all the new maps as they come out, and would like to save some cash. Or someone finishes Bioshock Infinite, and decides they trust the team at Irrational to come out with great content (as history has shown), and save some hard earned money on the upcoming content.

If someone buys a season pass BEFORE playing the game, then it's a buyer beware type situation, the same as pre-ordering is. I've been burned before, and decided not to pre-order things unless I have a lot of research in it or is part of an existing franchise I already know and love.

I think my main issue is this the on-going theme as game publishers and developers as "greedy and horrible". I wholeheartedly agree that there have been miscues, bad ideas, and a lot of dirtbags out there, just like anything else on earth. I think it's more then fair to call them to the carpet, but also understand that there are really good people out there as well doing what the love, making a fine product and selling it a fair price. Capitalism isn't a bad system, it's what allows us to have hobbies and even careers in video games. You have to call out and punish the assholes and credit those who do the right thing and/or go above and beyond, and realize that every questionable decision may not be out of greed or malice, but just a good intention that went the wrong way.

I know alot of what you do is for laughs and to be edgy and I'm not asking you to change a bit of that, I just would like to hope that you do understand some of these things in the long run.
 

Reincarnatedwolfgod

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I can't make any arguments on why how pre-ordering dlc is a smart idea so jim is right. although I may be hard to not follow that principal for the telltale's the walking dead season 2.
 

19

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I think that if your "Thank god for me" was mostly or entirely inaudible (you know, because you'd just dropped the mic), it would have been funnier.
Great episode though, thanks Jim.
 

Doom972

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I don't mind them. They have their use. When I got Saint's Row3 on a Steam Sale, I could've bought certain DLC packs (that were already released) separately, or just get the season pass. I got the season pass, and I don't regret it.

If people buy a season pass before the DLC is actually released and are later disappointed, they only have themselves to blame.
 

Norix596

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Hey, the pasta sauce episode was my favorite - no foul of well used food metaphors.
 

Brian Tams

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The only way I own DLC nowadays is if it comes bundled as part of a steam sale, and that's it.
 

13thforswarn

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I pre-ordered Battlefield 3 Premium back in the day. While it wasn't necessarily a mistake, I only really enjoyed 2 of the 4 map packs DICE released. The other 2 were okay, but that's it, okay. Won't do the same with BF4. Better to spend $30.00 on 2 map packs you'll play a lot on rather than $50.00 on 2 good packs and 2 you'll never play again after the hype has died down.
 

gphjr14

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Borderlands 2 was my first and last time buying a season pass. The guy at gamestop misled me into thinking it included the Mechcromancer only to find out it didn't. I was new to Borderlands and hadn't done extensive research, but it taught me lesson. Overall I'm pleased with the DLC but can't say I would've bought it after I finished the main game.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I've never ever bought a season pass. I never will. I just don't trust it. So many things could go wrong and I'm not wasting money. I wait for GOTY editions, either that or the DLC is just not worth it.
I loved Borderlands 2, but I didn't buy a season pass. I'll wait a while and then get the GOTY edition super cheap.
I loved Sleeping Dogs, but aside from the DLC included with a brand new game (some cop outfit and a couple of missions) I never bothered with the rest.

Same with Kickstarter. Sorry, I'm not backing anything unless it's Taylor Swift naked in my bedroom.
 

thehorror2

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Volition's way of handling season passes is the right one, if there IS a right way to handle them.

All the "big" dlc (missions, etc) goes in the pass, while the silly nonsense and frippery (extra clothes, weapons, vehicles) is purchased piecemeal. They get to exploit the idiots who love shiny things (i.e, me) while still giving people who are really into the game for the game's sake (also me) a way to invest in extending the game's lifetime beyond the initial run time.
 

Paradoxrifts

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Thanatos2k said:
Paradoxrifts said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Please.

The only way to go back to them 'good old days' when your average gamer played the same game for months and months on end would be to pass and enforce a new law where everyone is only ever allowed to buy a single game on their birthday and at Christmas.
Why do you need them to play your game for months? You make a game, you sell it, they play it, they finish it. You get money, they get a complete experience, they become your fans if they like it to buy your next game, and they will tell other people who haven't heard of your game how good it is.
I think we might have misunderstood one another, as I have absolutely no desire to play a game for months on end. I was merely pointing out that the gamers are by and large a rather gluttonous lot, who seldom finish what is currently resting on their plate before going back for seconds. Not trying to be judgmental or anything. It's just the way it is.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Season passes are insanely stupid.

Mostly because in the end you are saving maybe 1-2 dollars on content that you are on average not going to be satisfied with entirely.

I've never purchased the FULL amount of DLC from ANY game because I simply look it up, see if I want it, and it always turns out(big surprise) that one piece of DLC is just lackluster sidequesting or some generic character customization charge.

That is exactly the reason I always pass on Borderlands DLC till something big comes out. If they want to charge for some half-assed mission, go ahead, I'm not paying.
-------------------------------

Season passes just represent everything wrong with dlc, except blindly pledging your money to a game you will probably ditch by the time the last part of the dlc comes out.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Um... Borderlands 2 season pass wasn't in any way misrepresented. It tells you exactly what you get both in the microsoft store and when you were buying it from a third-party: the first four additional campaigns. This, additionally, was a promise to add four more campaigns to the game. The free level cap adjustment was actually a bonus that was added later, everything else wasn't in the SP because the SP explicitly said it wouldn't be.

If you can't be arsed to read the whole two-sentence product description before buying something, I'd have to say that's more on you than on the developers.
 

fozzy360

I endorse Jurassic Park
Oct 20, 2009
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Jim_Callahan said:
Um... Borderlands 2 season pass wasn't in any way misrepresented. It tells you exactly what you get both in the microsoft store and when you were buying it from a third-party: the first four additional campaigns. This, additionally, was a promise to add four more campaigns to the game. The free level cap adjustment was actually a bonus that was added later, everything else wasn't in the SP because the SP explicitly said it wouldn't be.

If you can't be arsed to read the whole two-sentence product description before buying something, I'd have to say that's more on you than on the developers.
It's not so much that it's misrepresentation so much as it is that there's simply no point in having a season pass, which is meant to sell DLC at a discounted price, if you're going to have a quarter of it not covered by the season pass. If you have a season pass, the expectation is that you get the DLC released the moment its out without having to spend extra. If you're just going to have people pay for other bits of DLC not covered by a season pass, then you may as well give them the option to buy any piece they want a la carte, thus making it more convenient and easier to understand.

The analogy I go back to is paying to enter a theme park, but having to pay for a few of the rides for some arbitrary reason. The expectation is that you pay the admission to ride all the rides inside without having to pay extra. If that's not the approach you want, then have the admission be free but enact a pay-per-ride structure so that you can pay for the attractions you want to visit.

Again, anyone can read up and see what's covered and what's not, but why have a system that needs that kind of explaining? It's convoluted without having a good reason to be so.
 

Sarge034

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I have only bought two season passes in my life. I believe that it is stupid to pre-order something without any idea of what it will be. Story extensions, "horde" mode, skin packs, weapon packs? Roll the dice, you feelin lucky punk?

My two moments of weakness occurred because I betrayed myself and allowed myself to be swayed by how good the games were and, dare I say it, trust the developers. I bought the Borderlands 2 season pass and the Bioshock Infinite season pass. Borderlands 2's season pass was not a bad deal, but all the DLC that came out should have been included. That shit pisses me off to no end. Bioshock Infinite's season pass is bullshit. A "horde" mode, a DLC cut in half to take up two of the four promised DLCs, one of which I hear is all narrative/ no gameplay, and who the fuck knows what the fourth will be? :(

 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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very good episode here Jim. I completely agree with what you said here. And i never buy Season Passes and i never Pre-order games. I will actually let couple weeks pass for the hype to settle and see if its actually worth getting after all. Besides, i can always just pick one of over 100 games in my backlog anyway.

Arnoxthe1 said:
There are some people I know that love having a game delivered to them right when it's released so they don't have to go out and perhaps wait in a line.

I think map packs need to be addressed. It's a rather serious issue for FPS' and I would like to hear your thoughts on it, Jim.
These people can buy digital and get it delivered the second it launches.
Map packs are the worst, especially since by the time they are out modders have usually created better maps for free already.
 

piinyouri

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Just want to say, I did the Borderlands 2 season pass and don;t regret it. It ended up saving us money. Can't be mad at that.
That said, I only did it because I knew I was going to get every bit of DLC the game had anyway. (I don't do this for just any game. Borderlands is one of those games for me, so I was happy to do the season pass thing.)

Of course I know that's just one success story in a sea of disappointments and anger.
 

ninjaRiv

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chozo_hybrid said:
ninjaRiv said:
I preordered Arkham Origins and I don't regret a thing. I preordered Splinter Cell Blacklist and loved it. I did this because I researched the product, the companies and people involved and I know I already like the franchises. So preordering can be good for established companies with great names attached. Their products are available for preview, some more than others, and the research can be done.

Problem with Season Passes is, there's no product before you order it. It's all based on faith and trust. Even if you trust the people involved, there's still no product to examine and preview. So... Yeah, good video. Agree with a lot of it.
Arkham Origins has a season pass already? Jeez. When was that announced, I've pre-ordered the game because I'm confident about that purchase, but will wait until all details are revealed on that before getting. I just hope the game isn't having content cut out of it.

I agree with his video too. The only season pass I ever bought was for injustice because I would have got the characters regardless, I like my fighting games and more characters was fine with me in this instance.

EDIT: So the skins I get with my pre-order are part of it, lame. Wasn't the reason I've pre-ordered, want the physical goodies, but still. That's supposed to be ab onus for preordering, at least for a while anyway.

Just looked it up, they say the story bit will be well worth the asking price. All the costumes in it are more like bonuses. In that case, I'll wait and see rather the buy it blind.
I read that the Gotham by Gaslight skin is only available if you buy the Season pass... Which is pretty terrible.
 

GonzoGamer

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Charcharo said:
A 60 Dollar game would NOT have needed DLC for support if they came MODABLE.
Modding >>> DLC. Of coarse, good DLC + modding is golden, but if a developer wants to REALLY support their game post-launch, release a SDK. There you go, if it has fans, it will be eternal. Immortal. The rest is BS.

Anyways, good episode Jim! But what if we really really trust the developing company? Is it alright then (and we were never dissapointed from them before)
But consoles can only get the crappy parts of PC gaming; that memo went out years ago.

I would be wary even if you trust the devs. Gearbox really impressed me with the Borderlands games but I am very grateful I only rented Duke & Aliens. Strangely enough, I did end up buying the Borderlands 2 Season Pass (the only time I ever got a season pass) but that's because I was going to buy all the DLC anyway, so I figured I'd get a discount. Worked out well for me but that's not why I think Borderlands 2 is a bad argument for Jim.
The thing about Borderlands 2 Season Pass is that you could still buy it after all the content was released; you can probably still buy it now. It's about as blind a purchase as any game on the shelf.

But that same thing turned me off to LA Noir right off the bat. Besides the auctioning off of game content to different retailers, it seemed like that content was just pruned away from the original release: it didn't do anything different with the game, just some extra missions in the same style as the others. It just seemed really desperate of them.

But what can you expect really, so many people bought into the idea of pre-ordering games (why? I'll never know; people even got into it long before they gave you anything extra for pre-ordering) so of course the vultures are going to swoop in and exploit that. Gamers are notoriously foolish consumers which is why we see things like this...or the original Xbone concept.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Jul 15, 2009
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ninjaRiv said:
I read that the Gotham by Gaslight skin is only available if you buy the Season pass... Which is pretty terrible.
That is terrible. I love the art direction for that, but still, the skins don't change game play if the last games were anything to go by, so it's not turning that part into a definite sell to me.
 

rembrandtqeinstein

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Normally I'm totally against pre-order or season passes but I broke my rule for Borderlands 2. And I don't regret it. The DLC rated meh, good, meh and godly. Assault on Dragon Keep was completely fucking awesome and worth purchasing the game for in itself.

Gearbox earned my trust by making the spectacular Borderlands 1 quite perfect and even though they missed some steps in 2 (no decapitation or dismemberment or elaborate death animations, marketing paid costumes in game) they generally did a good job and I don't regret the money spent.

That said it would take a LOT for me do that again. I would with XCOM2 if that ever comes out, I will with the Binding of Isaac remake but not much else.
 

EightGaugeHippo

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I was gifted around 2000 Microsoft points for christmas along with Halo 4... so what did I do? I bought the fucking season pass didn't I?

Worst decision ever, pre-ordering of DLC is the biggest fucking scam in the industry.
Sure I got some maps (yawn) but when the actual DLC that was worth buying came round (the one that added a new game type) it wasn't included in the season pass. As Jim would say "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFuck off!"
 

ninjaRiv

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chozo_hybrid said:
ninjaRiv said:
I read that the Gotham by Gaslight skin is only available if you buy the Season pass... Which is pretty terrible.
That is terrible. I love the art direction for that, but still, the skins don't change game play if the last games were anything to go by, so it's not turning that part into a definite sell to me.
The fact that you have to purchase skins at all is something I hate, anyway. It was a pretty big negative (imo) part of Arkham City. Skins should be unlocked in game using skill, not something you need to pay for. It seems absolutely crazy! But we all know that... We all know what DLC should be.
 

Hellfireboy

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I have actually only preordered two games and done one season pass. The first preorder was for Arkham City, which I still play and love, but the last preorder and season pass was for Assassin's Creed 3 and totally soured me on the whole thing. I actually regretted buying the season pass the moment I left the store when it occurred to me that I might not even want the DLC that they were going to put out. As of now I have downloaded but never played any of it.

AC3 is a good example of the trap that is so easy to fall into. A game that gets a lot of good press, look great and everyone is chomping at the bit to get. When it comes out it is a glitchy mess but you don't know that because you already have it before any of the reviews have come out and before the developer has even had a chance to address the issue. You then get the season pass where you pay up front for something that doesn't exist and that you may not want when it does.

This really comes down to caveat emptor. You have to take the time to carefully consider what you are buying and whether or not you are getting the best value for your money. To do that you need to know what the product actually is and that isn't possible with a season pass since the product is unseen. The industry will always try to get the money out of you as fast as possible since, to them, it represents a guaranteed income and reduces their uncertainty. We as consumers though need to realize that we don't work for them and their bottom line is none of our concern but whether the product meets our wants or needs.

Of all of the traps that marketing has created for the modern consumer this is really one of the simplest to avoid. When the cashier at your local game store asks you if you want a season pass you say, 'no.' Don't feel bad, they don't work for the game companies either. And if you see on the list of downloads on PSN or XBL just pass it by.
 

MPZero

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i dont buy season passes becouse i see them as money grabs and relly nothing i want in them... hell i dont normly even buy DLC unless it's on steam sale (or in some rare cases for games i truly love and want the extra stuff... i miss the old PC game days when addon and extra maps were free... and given with love...not this milk it till its dead and no one will touch it... quick hit it with a bat and make it twitch we can get some more out of it...

ah well... have to see where this all pans out to..
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I don't mind pre-ordering things I pretty much know I'm going to like, in my case Pokemon and Arkham Origins.

But the last Season Pass I went in on was actually Bioshock Infinite, and I thought that was a really safe bet and they would do it right.

Last time I make that mistake.
 

Evonisia

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Jun 24, 2013
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Bleh, I hate Season Passes. They and Online Passes need to just go away.
 

Pat Hulse

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Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Obviously that's possible, but I'd prefer having DLC as a viable business model for a number of reasons:

1) Development time is hell and it's difficult for producers to find the right balance between focusing on fine-tuning the game engine and the mechanics and producing the actual content for the game. All too often a game will ship before it's ready because the developers were focused more on cranking out a large amount of content rather than perfecting the core gameplay. A DLC model makes it more economical to focus on quality over quantity.
I disagree. It's done the opposite - devs now are being split off from the main teams and shunted onto DLC development INSTEAD of perfecting the main game. Worse, console games are starting to acquire one of the few downsides to PC game development - the "we'll fix it in a patch" syndrome where the initial product is flawed and they'll fix it later (perhaps in a DLC!). Despicable companies like Capcom even have the nerve to include bug fixes and balance changes IN THE DLC, essentially charging you for patches.

2) Too many developers reinvent the wheel even though it's often unnecessary to do so. How many full-priced sequels end up just being recreated copies of the previous game with new assets and content? How many sequels could just as easily be produced as DLC for a fraction of the cost? Imagine instead of rushing out sequels every 2 or 3 years, developers just made one really solid franchise entry per generation and produced seasons of episodic content like "The Walking Dead" does?
Episodic content is episodic content - that's not exactly DLC - that's you buying the actual game in sequential pieces as it gets made, not buying the whole game and then getting extra crap shoved onto it (or pulled from it to sell back to you).

3) It theoretically allows developers to take more risks since DLC tends to be lower-investment. They can try out unusual ideas or test out different mechanics or give younger, less experienced (but often more ambitious) developers a chance to cut their teeth on something smaller-scale in the AAA industry, perhaps leading to more innovation in a perpetually stagnating high-budget industry.
DLC's been around a while now - when has this EVER happened? The closest I can see would be something like Far Cry Blood Dragon which is more of an expansion or mod than DLC. DLC never produces anything that is more innovative than the original game. Modders do - and that's free for everyone.
My point isn't that DLC does all of these things but that, done properly, DLC can do all of these things. I'm not trying to defend the current practice of DLC but rather to suggest that abolishing it entirely isn't the right solution partially because of things like "Blood Dragon" and the concept of episodic content in the first place (which wouldn't be possible without a pre-existing DLC infrastructure) and also that favoring the "Season Pass" gimmick over the "Day One DLC" gimmick is a step in the right direction. It's still not an ideal system and definitely puts the lion's share of the risk on the consumer as Jim points out, but it also potentially alleviates a lot of the problems you cite. The reason producers shove developers onto the DLC rather than onto perfecting the core gameplay is because until the "Season Pass" gimmick, producers were trying to get DLC ready for launch. With the "Season Pass" method, however, they can take their sweet time without sacrificing potential sales.

Yes, DLC has problems and companies use it as a crutch, but those that do are rarely rewarded for it. It's why they're experimenting with the Season Pass thing in the first place. They know that leaning too heavily on Day One DLC is hurting their product and so they're looking for a way to take advantage of the launch DLC sales window without sacrificing the quality of the core product.

And DLC can and has worked. You mentioned "Blood Dragon" already. My personal favorite example is the "Rock Band" series, which released new DLC every week for over 5 years. I wish more games would just be good games and rather than waste time and money on a sequel just build new stories off of the game that people already bought. The games industry has been trying way too hard for far too long to be the movie industry... maybe it should try to be more like HBO.
 

DeadlyYellow

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One could supposedly wait until a collection pack is released, but that makes you some kind of horrible person.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Strazdas said:
These people can buy digital and get it delivered the second it launches.
Map packs are the worst, especially since by the time they are out modders have usually created better maps for free already.
Some (like me) want a physical copy.

A map editor in every game sounds great on paper but in terms of development and space on the disc, it's rather difficult and costly to implement a fully featured map editor a la the Unreal Editor or the Far Cry 3 Editor. One solution to this is to implement an editor that's not as large and extensive but then, if you do that, we're back to the map packs again because modders won't be able to create the same quality maps since they don't have all the tools.
 

RJ 17

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DVS BSTrD said:
The best additional content is never included in the season pass anyway, much better to wait and DLsee what turns up after launch.
Normally I get a chuckle out of your over-the-top puns...but this one hurt my brain...my very THOUGHTS are in pain...

Oh, and Jim, I'm sure that out of a hundred and 140 some-odd posts someone has already pointed this out but just in case they haven't: epic mic drops tend to work better sans the podium. :p

OT: I only pre-order games that I know I'll like...and I can happily say that more times than not I have come away satisfied. Arkham Origins, for instance, I'm pretty sure I'm going to enjoy seeing as how much I enjoyed the first two games and the fact that, despite being made by a new studio, it looks like they haven't fudged up the most important/fun parts of those games: the combat. As long as they've added to and built off of the original combat scheme made by Rocksteady, I know I'll be happy. Assassin's Creed III, on the other hand, turned out to be a massive disappointment and I felt like a giant boob for pre-ordering that piece of crap. To be fair, I could be wrong about Arkham Origins and turn out dissatisfied with it as well, but everything I've seen from the game says "This is gonna be frickin' sweet", so I'm trusting that my instincts are correct.

DLC, on the other hand, is an entirely different beast. The only reason I have a Bioshock Infinite Season Pass is because my friend works at GameStop and he actually hooked me up with a Season Pass code for free. Beyond that, however, you never know when the DLC is going to come out, let alone if it'll be good or not. I don't even know if I'll still be bothered to play the game (or if I'll even still own it) by the time the DLC comes out so why bother? Truth be told, the only reason I still have BS: Infinite is because I got the free Season Pass...but beyond that, I've just been sitting around waiting for the DLC story to come out, having only played the main game through 1.5 playthroughs.
 

Griffolion

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I learnt my season pass lesson the hard way with BF3. They call it "premium", it's the same thing. 1/4 of the DLC packs was actually decent (Aftermath). The rest was unimaginative shite. I won't be premiuming again.
 

Kittyhawk

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Totally agree. Season passes and pre-orders have become the new shady pay wall to content we should get anyway.

I love Bioshock Infinite and Borderlands 2 but all the DLC fragmentation just plain screws gamers. Many will just end up waiting for the GotY edition with all the DLC included. From a publisher stand point, this probably looks like a win win. Sure, we get that they are a business etc, but don't bite or shit on the hand that feeds you. A bit of goodwill goes a long way.

I'm glad I don't pre-order games anymore, because seeing this and that piece of content farmed out to odd retailers is just annoying and disrespecting gamers intelligence.
 

wulfy42

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Borederlands 2 is an excellent example of why to never purchase season passes.

I got the game originally on my Ps3...along with the season pass. Figured it would be a good deal over all.


Thing is...eventually I missed playing it on my PC...but....by that time there were tons of Sales. I was able to get the original Borderlands 2 and ALL the DLC...including the extra characters, upgrades etc...for $21 total on my pc.

PS3 + Season pass was around $100 (and I bought both Krang and Mechromancer as well for another $20 on my Ps3). Total spent on Ps3 version with season pass ....about $120.

Total spent on PC version with everything except the latest level expansion part (Which I don't need)...$21.

What is wrong with this equation?

Now it's true....I would not have been able to play the game for a long time if I waited to only play it for $21....but the newest expansion had just been released.....and the other expansions where not exactly something I would have lost alot waiting for. The special they had was 75% off the cost of all the DLC with 20% off your total after that. Point being the $40 base DLC you got with the season pass for $30....only ended up costing about $8 (for some reason I think it was actually only $7 but not sure why it got down to that).

That is what is wrong with season passes. They don't take sales into account, or price drops over time etc.

Also they don't take into account bad DLC...or DLC you don't really want/need. Honestly the only DLC I really liked was the last one (Tiny Tina's). The rest was missable to be honest. Yes, when I could get them for almost nothing I picked them up for my PC as well...but I wouldn't have missed having them.

When projecting future content on season passes, you really should take into account price drops and sales as well, and lower the over all price a bit more. 25% off for buying a season pass (compared to the long term price) is honestly what should be given for buying all the content together once it's released. It doesn't include any incentive to actually buy the content in ADVANCE as well.

Season passes should basically start at 50% of the total eventual price of all the content. Anything less is an insult.
 

UnnDunn

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Jim Sterling is a self-righteous blowhard. I work for my money, and I'll spend it however I damn well please.
 

timboo_drow

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UnnDunn said:
Jim Sterling is a self-righteous blowhard. I work for my money, and I'll spend it however I damn well please.
I don't think Sterling would begrudge you that, just don't expect him to respect your choice.

My belief is that I will buy a product if and when it is available and worth my money and not a second sooner. If companies are taking money and not providing the product then they get the extra benefit of having your cash on hand without having delivered anything for it; that's called a LOAN.

Where is our interest, games industry, on all of the millions of dollars of loans you have taken from your consumers.

I also view Kickstarter in the same light; asking for loans with no mention of paying any interest for those loans.
 

WeepingAngels

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Of course pre-ordering DLC is silly as shit so I won't say anything more about it. Let's look instead at game and console pre-orders. It has gotten to the point where people feel they MUST pre-order if they want a game or console on launch day. In other words, the pre-order mentality feeds itself.

Gamers need to do themselves a favor and just stop pre-ordering. Just stop and if enough people do, then it will no longer feel necessary to pre-order.
 

Roboterik

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Pre ordering a season pass seems ridiculous for a game that you don't know if you actually like yet...But what can you say to an industry that successfully replaced playable demos with teaser trailers and worthless pre order bonuses? If publishers can workout beforehand that the games going to flop then they can cut the funding out of the DLC to make it as cheap to produce as possible. Selling vague promises is a great way to fill in poor sales but also gives the appearance of confidence where there isn't a whole lot.
 

putowtin

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Jul 7, 2010
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I don't mind pre-ordering a game I know I want, I'll find the best price/deal however Season Passes can go get stuffed!
I foolishly bought the Saints Row 4 season pass, it doesn't include the GAT V pack... I wanted a gun that fired knives:( Well no more, I've learnt my lesson!
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Arnoxthe1 said:
Strazdas said:
These people can buy digital and get it delivered the second it launches.
Map packs are the worst, especially since by the time they are out modders have usually created better maps for free already.
Some (like me) want a physical copy.

A map editor in every game sounds great on paper but in terms of development and space on the disc, it's rather difficult and costly to implement a fully featured map editor a la the Unreal Editor or the Far Cry 3 Editor. One solution to this is to implement an editor that's not as large and extensive but then, if you do that, we're back to the map packs again because modders won't be able to create the same quality maps since they don't have all the tools.
Sure, some want to, but then they should accept that with physical copies you got certain problems, such as having to wait in line for example.

I didnt said we need map editors in games. what we need is a comprehensible way of file storage and coding. you know, sort of like how Relic did it back when it was alive. they didnt provide any user tools. the modders themselves created tools. because files were stored in .big packages, scripts were written in LUA that modders decrypted themselves, and allowed to make a lot of mods, even by people like me who usually arent knowledgable enough, that made the game last much longer. And before you ask im talking about homeworld series. you know the thing people are ready to give money for a HD remake now. its 13 years old, and people still play it, and still create mods for it. thats a good life if anything.
modders are more resourceful than you think, there are programmers who play with game code for fun too you know.
 

TelHybrid

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The thing I hate most about season passes is that it doesn't get you every single DLC release for the game, only selected releases. What's the point of it?!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Season passes and DLC is why I don't support games at launch anymore. Games are just not worth the $60 plus the extra to have a complete experience. Why waste money on a game and DLC when I can wait and get a complete edition later on? Borderlands 2 is a perfect example of this. It literally has over $100 in content. The season pass doesn't actually include all of it. It only includes like four of five items, or about half of the $100. What kind of garbage is that? They just released the Game of the Year edition yesterday, just like I knew they would. It costs $60 to get the GOTY edition, or $90 for the game and season pass if I got it on launch, and up to $160 if I wanted everything!

And please apologists, spare me your fucking bullshit on how the DLC doesn't take away from the experience of the game. Umm, yeah, it actually kind of does. They are part of the damn game, thus part of the experience. It doesn't matter if it came out later.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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fluxy100 said:
I stand by the fact that a season pass is an option, it is a show of goodwill from the purchaser to the supplier that they trust that the DLC will be good and they are paying them beforehand because of that belief. If someone doesn't want the season pass and decides that they want to wait then that is all and good, they get the upside of seeing the DLC but the downside of a higher price.

I also hate it whenever anyone complains about the Borderlands 2 DLC season pass, to me It's one of the few season passes done extremely well. They stated beforehand what people were going to get, released said DLC they promised and made a few more, of course you're not going to get the other DLC with the season pass, that's not what they promised. To ask otherwise is to ask for something extra when you already payed for a set amount of DLC and received the DLC you payed for.
Umm, wrong. People who wait DON'T have to pay a higher price because the season pass is always available, even after everything is released. Also here's a little newsflash: no, these things aren't really optional. It's psychology. They are always trying to get you to pay extra. Funny how you bring up Borderlands 2, as that game is a perfect example. In Borderlands 2, you have to pay just to raise your damn level cap! Sorry, but no, Borderlands 2 doesn't feature extremely well done DLC. It's actually a ripoff. Especially since yesterday they released a game of the year edition for only $60. Much better than paying $60 for the base game, then at least $30 for only SOME of the DLC.
 

fluxy100

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Blue Ranger said:
fluxy100 said:
I stand by the fact that a season pass is an option, it is a show of goodwill from the purchaser to the supplier that they trust that the DLC will be good and they are paying them beforehand because of that belief. If someone doesn't want the season pass and decides that they want to wait then that is all and good, they get the upside of seeing the DLC but the downside of a higher price.

I also hate it whenever anyone complains about the Borderlands 2 DLC season pass, to me It's one of the few season passes done extremely well. They stated beforehand what people were going to get, released said DLC they promised and made a few more, of course you're not going to get the other DLC with the season pass, that's not what they promised. To ask otherwise is to ask for something extra when you already payed for a set amount of DLC and received the DLC you payed for.
Umm, wrong. People who wait DON'T have to pay a higher price because the season pass is always available, even after everything is released. Also here's a little newsflash: no, these things aren't really optional. It's psychology. They are always trying to get you to pay extra. Funny how you bring up Borderlands 2, as that game is a perfect example. In Borderlands 2, you have to pay just to raise your damn level cap! Sorry, but no, Borderlands 2 doesn't feature extremely well done DLC. It's actually a ripoff. Especially since yesterday they released a game of the year edition for only $60. Much better than paying $60 for the base game, then at least $30 for only SOME of the DLC.
You mean a game with DLC eventually released a GOTY edition so people can buy all the DLC at once? The hell you say!! The idea of a GOTY has been around for much longer than the Borderlands games, It's always been get the DLC earlier or buy the game later for a cheaper price with all the DLC included. Nothing you say makes it seem like their season pass was flawed in any way.

And I already answered in a previous post that I was mistaken when I said the season pass went away eventually.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Strazdas said:
Sure, some want to, but then they should accept that with physical copies you got certain problems, such as having to wait in line for example.

I didnt said we need map editors in games. what we need is a comprehensible way of file storage and coding. you know, sort of like how Relic did it back when it was alive. they didnt provide any user tools. the modders themselves created tools. because files were stored in .big packages, scripts were written in LUA that modders decrypted themselves, and allowed to make a lot of mods, even by people like me who usually arent knowledgable enough, that made the game last much longer. And before you ask im talking about homeworld series. you know the thing people are ready to give money for a HD remake now. its 13 years old, and people still play it, and still create mods for it. thats a good life if anything.
modders are more resourceful than you think, there are programmers who play with game code for fun too you know.
Or I could just preorder it and not wait in line. Best of both worlds. :\

And you're talking about a solution for PC games. I'm talking about map packs in general which are mainly for consoles of course. PC's have it really easy in terms of modding.
 

babinro

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I still disagree with the concept that if DLC comes out quickly then it means it was teared from the main game.
Don't people know by now that DLC is often planned out during the development process?

It's not like companies wait until after game launch and then start thinking, "Should we consider adding content for money, patch it for free, or just stop supporting it?"

There's no reason to get angry when a company offers day one DLC, on disc DLC or season passes. The general content being offered was in planning for a while now. I've yet to play a game without DLC in which the game felt incomplete and left me confused. That's a good thing because I very rarely buy any kind of DLC.

I get where Jim is coming from in this episode and I agree that it's not wise to spend your money on pre-ordering a game plus it's seasons pass when you have no idea what the actual game is like. That aside, I don't think there's anything wrong with the existence of these things. Let gamers pre-order if they want...we live in an age where people will fund kickstarter games based on far less detail than we have at the time of a season pass. Buyer Beware is a given.
 

Slash2x

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See THIS is why I watch this show. Mr Sterling your opinion mirrors my own on this one. Post launch support? Payday 2 has post launch support they are fixing issues and adding in new content FOR FREE!!!(minus the cost of buying the game to begin with) Killzone what ever the heck that was,is getting a prepayment on ideas, NOT post game support. So in effect we are paying more for the same games or kickstarting for big businesses.
 

Atmos Duality

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Season Passes are certainly a gamble..
I did not plan on getting my season pass for Borderlands 2 nor did I buy it; it was gifted to me last Christmas.
In hindsight, it would have been a great purchase, but how could I have known the quality of the DLC in advance when it was first announced; when it didn't even exist?

For Borderlands 2, it worked out great for me in the end, but it's also something that I can see getting abused. Abused in an even worse way than shit like Day 1 DLC, "disc locked content" and all the other bullshit paywalls that have been steadily creeping into games since the world cried foul on Horse Armor back in Oblivion.
 

Battenberg

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Aug 16, 2012
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Vault Citizen said:
This is why I'm glad I didn't buy the Last of Us Season Pass. I did think about it to support the game but after they said what the DLC would be it turned out that I only wanted to buy one DLC item that would be sold as part of the season pass.
Campaign DLC by any chance? That's the case for me. As great as TLoU's multiplayer is I bought the game for the single player story, that's what I want more of, not extra maps/ guns for multiplayer.

OT: I don't think season passes are bad/ should go, I think they're just badly implemented. The way they're currently arranged there is no way I would ever buy a season pass before every single piece of DLC it covered had been released for all the reasons Jim said HOWEVER with the correct set of cirumstances I might.

The simplest thing developers could do is give precise (and guaranteed) release dates and at least a rough description of every piece of DLC covered by the season pass and promise that the price of the season pass and all DLC items won't change for a minimum period e.g. until 6-12 months after the final piece of DLC has been released. This would do two things: give customers certainty about what it is they're buying and when they can expect to receive it (something that is generally expected with any other purchase) AND ensure that the season pass will remain good value for a reasonable period. As Jim said it's ridiculous to suggest people should give a company money for something that does not yet exist. Until the developers have at least a rough idea of the DLC they'll make and present a solid schedule for it they shouldn't be taking people's money, even Kickstarter offers this level of assurance. The second thing they could do is, in addition to making it better value than buying DL seperately, include exclusive content. Not neccessarily anything so exceptional that players without a season pass will feel excluded, just a gesture to reward customer loyalty, preferably from the moment they buy the season pass; it could even be something as simple as extra player skins. And finally, and this is the part that will take the most time and effort, the triple A devs putting these season passes out need to earn back the trust and respect of their audience by showing that they care about customer satisfaction and not just their profit margins.

Just my two cents and no doubt other people may disagree but I do think season passes could be good for both the gaming business and the customers if they were implemented better.
 

boradis

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canadamus_prime said:
I will not pre-order games and I will definitely not pre-order DLC. Season Passes and any Publisher that uses them can go fuck themselves.
Exactly. They just want money up front without working for it. Makes me wonder why Hollywood doesn't let you pre-order tickets to movies coming out months from now.

Oh, wait. That's because that would be retarded and the general public wouldn't put up with it.

Gamers on the other hand are (pardon my French) immature and stupid enough to turn even their purchasing decisions into a competition. The reason these stupid pre-order systems even exist is too many customers buy into hype and are eager to throw their money -- or their parents' money -- away.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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boradis said:
canadamus_prime said:
I will not pre-order games and I will definitely not pre-order DLC. Season Passes and any Publisher that uses them can go fuck themselves.
Exactly. They just want money up front without working for it. Makes me wonder why Hollywood doesn't let you pre-order tickets to movies coming out months from now.

Oh, wait. That's because that would be retarded and the general public wouldn't put up with it.

Gamers on the other hand are (pardon my French) immature and stupid enough to turn even their purchasing decisions into a competition. The reason these stupid pre-order systems even exist is too many customers buy into hype and are eager to throw their money -- or their parents' money -- away.
I have to wonder why this whole pre-ordering thing still goes on. How many times are people going to get stung by pre-ordering something that turns out to be shit? For me it only took once. If you put your hand on a hot stove you learn pretty fast not to put your hand on the fucking stove again, but apparently when gamers get burned by pre-ordering something they thought was going to be good and it turns out to be shit the message just doesn't sink in. Also I don't know about anyone else, but I have to question the quality of a game that has pre-order bonuses up the yin-yang.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Arnoxthe1 said:
Strazdas said:
Sure, some want to, but then they should accept that with physical copies you got certain problems, such as having to wait in line for example.

I didnt said we need map editors in games. what we need is a comprehensible way of file storage and coding. you know, sort of like how Relic did it back when it was alive. they didnt provide any user tools. the modders themselves created tools. because files were stored in .big packages, scripts were written in LUA that modders decrypted themselves, and allowed to make a lot of mods, even by people like me who usually arent knowledgable enough, that made the game last much longer. And before you ask im talking about homeworld series. you know the thing people are ready to give money for a HD remake now. its 13 years old, and people still play it, and still create mods for it. thats a good life if anything.
modders are more resourceful than you think, there are programmers who play with game code for fun too you know.
Or I could just preorder it and not wait in line. Best of both worlds. :\

And you're talking about a solution for PC games. I'm talking about map packs in general which are mainly for consoles of course. PC's have it really easy in terms of modding.
Yes, but you would then be buying a cat in a bag. a well advertised cat, but still a cat in a bag. and then you waive your right to complain it didnt met your expectations.

Well yes, modding on consoles are pretty much nonexistant, so you have to suffer extortoinate map packs due to console folk not making modding support. basically you got to suffer for buying a console.
I mean dont take offence but if modding is important to you why would you buy a console version to begin with?
boradis said:
Exactly. They just want money up front without working for it. Makes me wonder why Hollywood doesn't let you pre-order tickets to movies coming out months from now.

Oh, wait. That's because that would be retarded and the general public wouldn't put up with it.
They do. you can buy a ticket for a movie in theater sometimes as early as over a month ahead. judging from numbers of seats remaining on the site that deals with those - people actually buy them.
also, music concerts usually sell out months before, but that coudl be argued that you already know what your getting because you probably already head the authors songs if your buying a ticket.

canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why this whole pre-ordering thing still goes on. How many times are people going to get stung by pre-ordering something that turns out to be shit? For me it only took once. If you put your hand on a hot stove you learn pretty fast not to put your hand on the fucking stove again, but apparently when gamers get burned by pre-ordering something they thought was going to be good and it turns out to be shit the message just doesn't sink in. Also I don't know about anyone else, but I have to question the quality of a game that has pre-order bonuses up the yin-yang.
The saem reaosn people keep repeatedly get hyped and dissapointed by games. people are stupid. Personally i just use the yatzees gamer matrix when it comes to games.

It also probably helps that i NEVER buy at launch and by the time i buy it the while opinion war is settled and you can read some decent reviews. but i usually set my mind on what i want quite early on, and only change it if i read soemthing about it i know ill hate.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Strazdas said:
Yes, but you would then be buying a cat in a bag. a well advertised cat, but still a cat in a bag. and then you waive your right to complain it didnt met your expectations.

Well yes, modding on consoles are pretty much nonexistant, so you have to suffer extortoinate map packs due to console folk not making modding support. basically you got to suffer for buying a console.
I mean dont take offence but if modding is important to you why would you buy a console version to begin with?
I'm not saying you should preorder every game, but for games that you just KNOW are going to be good like Skyrim or Halo 3 or GTA V, then preordering is hardly ever a cat in a bag. And if it didn't meet my expectations, well, I can always sell it.

I don't know about extortionate considering some map packs have some incredibly well-crafted and beautiful maps that would be few and far between in a modding community. Also, with custom content, you got to search for everything. Which isn't really that bad at all but sometimes the really good stuff can fly right past you without you even noticing. And ESPECIALLY if there's a lot of content out there for a game like Unreal Tournament for example.

As to why I'd buy a console version... Because a certain game may not be available for PC? Because my PC would be too crap to run it even if it were available? Because I know the console version will not have incredibly draconian DRM if there's any on the PC version? Yes though, sometimes the PC version is just better.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Arnoxthe1 said:
Strazdas said:
Yes, but you would then be buying a cat in a bag. a well advertised cat, but still a cat in a bag. and then you waive your right to complain it didnt met your expectations.

Well yes, modding on consoles are pretty much nonexistant, so you have to suffer extortoinate map packs due to console folk not making modding support. basically you got to suffer for buying a console.
I mean dont take offence but if modding is important to you why would you buy a console version to begin with?
I'm not saying you should preorder every game, but for games that you just KNOW are going to be good like Skyrim or Halo 3 or GTA V, then preordering is hardly ever a cat in a bag. And if it didn't meet my expectations, well, I can always sell it.

I don't know about extortionate considering some map packs have some incredibly well-crafted and beautiful maps that would be few and far between in a modding community. Also, with custom content, you got to search for everything. Which isn't really that bad at all but sometimes the really good stuff can fly right past you without you even noticing. And ESPECIALLY if there's a lot of content out there for a game like Unreal Tournament for example.

As to why I'd buy a console version... Because a certain game may not be available for PC? Because my PC would be too crap to run it even if it were available? Because I know the console version will not have incredibly draconian DRM if there's any on the PC version? Yes though, sometimes the PC version is just better.
you never KNOW game is going to be good. You expect it to be good from what you heard. People expected Aliens game to be good. see how that turned out. Also funny you mention Halo since i think Halo is one of the worst games out there. Preordering is always a cat in a bag. buying a game without knowing whats the product is a guess work. granted, guesswork with some background info but still guesswork.
I have seen better maps for free from modders than mappacks from official developers so i would disagree. and they even charge money for it. Yes, needing to find stuff is a minus, but same is woth DLC, excelt that with DLC you have less to choose from. and we now have variuos websites that sort it out pretty well.
Btw do people still actually play unreal tournament? thats one well supported game then.

In a perfect world you would not buy the console version making developer take a loss while asking them for PC version and they would either get it or go out of business. This aint no perfect world though, and you will contoinue suppot bad developer decisions by giving them money.
If you spent as much on PC gaming as you did on console gaming, bad PC problem would not exist. PC is inherently larger initial investment with cheaper use later on. ANd seeing how consoles bottleneck games for 8 years or 10 (thats what MS says), you wont need to update it often at all.
COnsoles wont have draconian DRM, like the one AdBox tried to implement?
 

Jacques Jones

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I never even bothered getting season passes. And as for DLC, if the game's good, I'll buy the DLC. If it's shit, than I won't get the DLC.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Battlefield 4 is a disgusting mess. It's £45-£55 up front and THEN it asks for an additional £40 for a 'premium membership'. That's £95! Do you know what i can get on Steam for £95?! On top of that there seems to be item packages called 'battle packs' (much like TF2 crates) that seem geared towards a microstansation environment.

Seems like BF4 is becoming another 'pay to unlock' game or even a 'pay to win' game as well as being another £45+ overpriced AAA game and a DLC whore. All they need now is some shitty DRM and the cycle is complete.
 

Vault Citizen

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Battenberg said:
Vault Citizen said:
This is why I'm glad I didn't buy the Last of Us Season Pass. I did think about it to support the game but after they said what the DLC would be it turned out that I only wanted to buy one DLC item that would be sold as part of the season pass.
Campaign DLC by any chance? That's the case for me. As great as TLoU's multiplayer is I bought the game for the single player story, that's what I want more of, not extra maps/ guns for multiplayer.

OT: I don't think season passes are bad/ should go, I think they're just badly implemented. The way they're currently arranged there is no way I would ever buy a season pass before every single piece of DLC it covered had been released for all the reasons Jim said HOWEVER with the correct set of cirumstances I might.

The simplest thing developers could do is give precise (and guaranteed) release dates and at least a rough description of every piece of DLC covered by the season pass and promise that the price of the season pass and all DLC items won't change for a minimum period e.g. until 6-12 months after the final piece of DLC has been released. This would do two things: give customers certainty about what it is they're buying and when they can expect to receive it (something that is generally expected with any other purchase) AND ensure that the season pass will remain good value for a reasonable period. As Jim said it's ridiculous to suggest people should give a company money for something that does not yet exist. Until the developers have at least a rough idea of the DLC they'll make and present a solid schedule for it they shouldn't be taking people's money, even Kickstarter offers this level of assurance. The second thing they could do is, in addition to making it better value than buying DL seperately, include exclusive content. Not neccessarily anything so exceptional that players without a season pass will feel excluded, just a gesture to reward customer loyalty, preferably from the moment they buy the season pass; it could even be something as simple as extra player skins. And finally, and this is the part that will take the most time and effort, the triple A devs putting these season passes out need to earn back the trust and respect of their audience by showing that they care about customer satisfaction and not just their profit margins.

Just my two cents and no doubt other people may disagree but I do think season passes could be good for both the gaming business and the customers if they were implemented better.

My. thoughts exactly, there isn't anything I really dislike about the multiplayer, I just didn't get draw.n into it and it isn't something I want to pay to get more of.
 

karloss01

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I agree on a whole though I do find exceptions in my own experiences. I enjoyed the DLC from Borderlands (Game of the year edition) that I purchased the season pass for the second game and I enjoyed that too. Also Pre-ordered the Super duper special edition of Dark Souls 2 as I love the series and I've got the special editions of the previous two and i wern't going to break my combo.


SolveMedia
GAME IS UP

not by a long shot.
 

kyomi7502

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Basically I agree with everything he just said. There has only been one instance that I was glad I got a "season pass" and that was in Battlefield 3 with the Premium. Definitely worth the money in my opinion, I think the 5 packs were $15 a piece plus getting priority in queues, a load of continuous bonuses like a new weapons and bonus xp all for only $50.
 

VonBrewskie

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Jim, You're great man. But you know that. I have a question for you and the room: are there ever instances where you enjoy the core content of a $60 game so much that you don't mind trust falling into a company's DLC bullshit? I think of the recent Battlefeild 3 as an example of this idea. BF3 Premium delivered some great content (and also Armored Kill which was good, but kind of meh to most players who aren't into vehicle combat), and I saved a little bit of money by purchasing Premium early. It was a trust fall of around 30 or 40 bucks, but I was having so much fun with BF3 that I felt it was worth the risk to drop some dimes for the extra content. In other words, cost wasn't a factor in my decision to buy. I just wanted more BF3 and had a fair amount of confidence that the extra content would be good based on how much fun I was having with the main game. Thoughts my people?
 

VonBrewskie

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kyomi7502 said:
Basically I agree with everything he just said. There has only been one instance that I was glad I got a "season pass" and that was in Battlefield 3 with the Premium. Definitely worth the money in my opinion, I think the 5 packs were $15 a piece plus getting priority in queues, a load of continuous bonuses like a new weapons and bonus xp all for only $50.
How the...jeez. I think I need to read the comments before I post. I forget I'm part of the Hivemind sometimes.
 

duchaked

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DataSnake said:
The trust issue is why I like Volition's approach to season passes. Namely, that you can buy the season pass at release and have all the A-grade DLC appear in your game as soon as it comes out (in a weird inversion, the B-grade weapon-and-outfit packs are what you have to buy separately) or you can wait until all the DLC is out and then buy the season pass to get all of it at a discount. Hell, the season pass for Saints Row The Third is still [http://store.steampowered.com/app/901805/] available on Steam, and the last piece of DLC dropped more than a year and a half ago!
yeah I liked how they did that. it made a lot of sense, and really worked for the consumer
 

Hdawger

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I typically only get a season pass if I have a good idea of what I'm actually going to get for it. Getting a season pass for Call of Duty? Sure, you know you're gonna get 4 map packs, which will include a zombie map if it's Treyarch's turn at bat. Buying a season pass for a fighting game? You're gonna get several new characters to fight with. Borderlands 2 I was absolutely fine with, because I got 4 enjoyable DLC campaigns (as they said when the season pass was released, no more no less) for the price of 3. In the end, it's just a matter of doing your research. If you don't think you know/trust what the studio is going to release for DLC for a season pass do not buy it (I definitely saw this one coming with Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite and thus didn't buy their season passes).
 

The Hungry Samurai

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Reasons To Pass On Season Passes

You were promised an episode on season passes, in the wake of Jimquisition complaing about downloadable content. There is a season for all things, and that season has come to pass.

Watch Video
I've known youre opinion on this for awhile, and I've never understood why you disliked them. I looked forward to this episode and I watched it with an open mind, but unfortunately I can't say I'm convinced.

While I agree the idea that DLC can be forced out for Season Passes, or put out too slowly. It doesn't change the fact that for some games I fully intend to buy all the DLC as soon as they come out, regardless of the general opinion of their content.

As long as the option to wait and pick the pieces up a la carte I see nothing wrong in developers giving me an option to buy it all at once at a discount, especially if that gives them more resources to develop their DLC as they intended. (Yes I know thats an idealist and probably naive way to look at it, although I'd like to think if a company screwed me over for that optimism I wouldn't be purchasing their passes for future titles)

There are wrong ways to do Passes. If the content of the pass is not clearly outlined from the start, if there is season pass "exclusive" content, or if there are no discounts for the bulk buy, then I would feel like I'd be getting hit for a pointless cash grab. However outside of those pitfalls, I think season passes just enable the consumer with more choices on how to purchase their goods, and I'm all for consumer empowerment.
 

Thanatos2k

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Pat Hulse said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
Thanatos2k said:
Pat Hulse said:
I can't argue that Season Passes are generally-speaking a bad deal and consumers ought to be wary of them, but I don't think that publishers should stop offering them. Pre-selling DLC ensures that the publishers don't get on the developers asses about releasing the DLC sooner since statistically, DLC sells best right after release (source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/eedar-consumers-have-greater-interest-in-dlc-a-month-after-game/ ). This is why on-disc DLC was such a common practice. With Season Passes, the publishers get to maximize DLC sales and the publishers get to take their time and do their DLC right.
You know, it is possible to release a game and not release any DLC. Imagine that, selling the complete game the first time and not having to worry about consumer interest waning in your game a month later - because they were completely satisfied the first time!
Obviously that's possible, but I'd prefer having DLC as a viable business model for a number of reasons:

1) Development time is hell and it's difficult for producers to find the right balance between focusing on fine-tuning the game engine and the mechanics and producing the actual content for the game. All too often a game will ship before it's ready because the developers were focused more on cranking out a large amount of content rather than perfecting the core gameplay. A DLC model makes it more economical to focus on quality over quantity.
I disagree. It's done the opposite - devs now are being split off from the main teams and shunted onto DLC development INSTEAD of perfecting the main game. Worse, console games are starting to acquire one of the few downsides to PC game development - the "we'll fix it in a patch" syndrome where the initial product is flawed and they'll fix it later (perhaps in a DLC!). Despicable companies like Capcom even have the nerve to include bug fixes and balance changes IN THE DLC, essentially charging you for patches.

2) Too many developers reinvent the wheel even though it's often unnecessary to do so. How many full-priced sequels end up just being recreated copies of the previous game with new assets and content? How many sequels could just as easily be produced as DLC for a fraction of the cost? Imagine instead of rushing out sequels every 2 or 3 years, developers just made one really solid franchise entry per generation and produced seasons of episodic content like "The Walking Dead" does?
Episodic content is episodic content - that's not exactly DLC - that's you buying the actual game in sequential pieces as it gets made, not buying the whole game and then getting extra crap shoved onto it (or pulled from it to sell back to you).

3) It theoretically allows developers to take more risks since DLC tends to be lower-investment. They can try out unusual ideas or test out different mechanics or give younger, less experienced (but often more ambitious) developers a chance to cut their teeth on something smaller-scale in the AAA industry, perhaps leading to more innovation in a perpetually stagnating high-budget industry.
DLC's been around a while now - when has this EVER happened? The closest I can see would be something like Far Cry Blood Dragon which is more of an expansion or mod than DLC. DLC never produces anything that is more innovative than the original game. Modders do - and that's free for everyone.
My point isn't that DLC does all of these things but that, done properly, DLC can do all of these things. I'm not trying to defend the current practice of DLC but rather to suggest that abolishing it entirely isn't the right solution partially because of things like "Blood Dragon" and the concept of episodic content in the first place (which wouldn't be possible without a pre-existing DLC infrastructure)
You act like it isn't possible without DLC, yet history has already proved otherwise.

Blood Dragon is an *expansion.* See, that's how things used to work. The game comes out, if they want to put more work into it and make more content they make an expansion. The expansion would usually have a significant amount of content to justify the price which was often 50-75% of the original asking price. It doesn't even have to continue the original game - it can be a self contained module like Blood Dragon. See Half Life Opposing Force.

Now with almost all DLC they charge you rates that are completely out of whack with the original cost/content ratio of the original game. It's why most DLC is scams, especially costume DLC and the like.

Episodic content wasn't possible without a pre-existing DLC infrastructure? Wrong. Numerous games throughout gaming history have done episodic content of sorts without DLC. .Hack is probably the best example. They had no problem.

Why do we need DLC again? Both methods worked completely fine before. Digital distribution is not DLC. All DLC does is reduce the quality of the development process and rob gamers of content they should be getting.

and also that favoring the "Season Pass" gimmick over the "Day One DLC" gimmick is a step in the right direction. It's still not an ideal system and definitely puts the lion's share of the risk on the consumer as Jim points out, but it also potentially alleviates a lot of the problems you cite. The reason producers shove developers onto the DLC rather than onto perfecting the core gameplay is because until the "Season Pass" gimmick, producers were trying to get DLC ready for launch. With the "Season Pass" method, however, they can take their sweet time without sacrificing potential sales.
It's not a step in the right direction, it's a 90 degree turn after having already gone off the path. You're still going in the wrong direction.
 

timeformime

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Ken Levine was right, game development takes time. Good lord, Jim, and everyone else, if you bought a season pass, you should have calculated the wait time required to make what's basically an expansion to Bioshock Infinte, which itself spent 5 years in development. Be patient. Stop bitching. It's gonna be awesome, and you know it.

Of course Jim's right that the season pass for every other game doesn't deserve to be bought. But still, if you bought one, you knew what you were getting into.
 

BBboy20

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Season Passes may as well be an all-in-one deal where EVERY. PIECE. OF. DLC. is available at your disposable but that has yet to occur.

Besides, Season Passes have reached an all-time low when the latest Batman title has SKINS as the highlight of it's pass...
 

shtoops

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If Half-Life 3 came out and had a season pass for DLC I would buy it, because I just trust Valve that much with my money.