Jimquisition: Salt Of The Earth - A Steam Fail Story

Deadagent

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Imp Emissary said:
Deadagent said:
[https://imageshack.com/i/j68lk4j]

xD Opps. My bad that's just the lady who happens to be right behind you.
[https://imageshack.com/i/5ii6cjj]
Mr_Terrific said:
I'm pretty sure that guy didn't read any of what you said to begin with
I did, but his wording was such that it definetly left that possibility there so I asked for clarification

and I find it comical that he somehow looped Sarkeesian into this.
I was only pointing out that Jim is perfectly fine calling out this Muxwell for his scam, but will defend another

He says "it's pc and there is no quality control on an open platform and that's ok" but then goes on about a woman that did a kickstarter to produce videos based on the works she's already started but that is somehow wrong because there's, apparently, quality control on the internet.
I never said that internet has quality control nor did I imply so either. Strawmanning ain't getting you anywhere. Also I am saying that open platforms tend to have more crap on them by default, thats just how it is. Valve specifically want's to open up steam for everyone, and if thats their goal then inevitably they will end up with more crap as well. Now trying to get that crap to sink to the bottom as quickly as possible is another matter entierly. But my point stands, steam dosen't need quality control. At least not traditional quality control

And the kicker is pretending like there was nothing but civil conversations and arguments against her views and then brushes off the hundreds of rape threats and terrible behavior like defacing web pages or calling her a scammer which really isn't the case. I find it shameful that there are people out there that are more offended by her ideas than the fools that threatened her with rape and murder.
I never brushed off the death threats, I fully acknowledged them, you on the other hand brush off everyone critising her as a troll. Civil discussion was happening and I even sent her a perfectly polite e-mail asking about what shes using the money for, unsuprisingly she still hasn't responded. Also death and rape threats are not a rare occurence at all. Anyone with an opinion on the internet has gotten their fair share of hatred, male or female. And yes that includes death and rape threats for men too. Why are you pretending that this is an issue of gender instead of being one of simple disagreement.
Thank you, my tought's exactly
Yes, you got it, Im scared of her. It's not that I think she's a scam artist. I know there's no way you could have known what I meant. Start adressing actual arguments or shut up.

The issue Jim is bringing up isn't simply that there are bad games being put on Steam. It is that the devs doing so are able and sometimes do silence anyone saying something they don't like about their games in the forums.
Some are even putting out fake reviews.
Yeah I can agree that they shouldn't give the devs that much control over the forums

This means that we can't just go by word of mouth and have faith that what people are saying about the game on the site are true.
This is bad because not all people who play games are going on to site like the Escapist and having people like Jim let us know who is trying to lie.
Most people are, and in this case the word of mouth spread fast enough before really big damage could be done. Same happended with guise of the wolf etc.

People for quality control on Steam don't want such because they want Steam to die. They want it so Steam can improve and continue.
I didn't think Jim wanted Steam to die, but calling for Quality control goes directly against opening up the platform wich has been the entire goal for Valve. I dont think throwing greenlight or similar systems out of the window entierly is the solution, Improving it yes. But corporate curated quality control is not the answer. Community managed quality control maybe? An easy way to get a refund? Something like that but not the traditional quality control method definetly.
 

Shjade

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Alterego-X said:
Whatever. If not for Steam, that guy could still do the exact same thing on his own website. PC gaming is an open platform.
He could, but without a fraction of the exposure he gets by putting it on Steam.
 

jehk

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Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.
I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.
The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.
Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all of these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.
 

Thanatos2k

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jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.
I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.
The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.
Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all off these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.
Jim bought a copy in order to play it, assumedly. It's still available for sale RIGHT NOW on Steam. Sales are greater than 0, thus, money has been scammed. Who cares if word of mouth prevents significant sales - some people scammed is certainly better than lots of people scammed, but people have still been scammed!

If someone shouts out "Hey, this guy running the shell game is cheating!" and he grabs all the cash on the table and makes a break for it, it was still too people many scammed. The optimal number is 0.
 

Alterego-X

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Shjade said:
Alterego-X said:
Whatever. If not for Steam, that guy could still do the exact same thing on his own website. PC gaming is an open platform.
He could, but without a fraction of the exposure he gets by putting it on Steam.
You are missing my point. Maybe right now an unproven game on Steam sells better than one on a personal site, but that's largely because through it's low entry level, Steam has largely devoured the more informal "Minecraft Market" where people would have been looking for such games a few years ago.

If Steam would start using stricter control, the kind of audience that is interested in browsing unproven indie games would just stop browsing safe, predictable Steam, and go back to that more informal market.

The more games there are Steam, the less it is like a Seal of Quality, and the less exposure the badge of "being on Steam" gives to such games.
 

jehk

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Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.
I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.
The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.
Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all off these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.
Jim bought a copy in order to play it, assumedly. It's still available for sale RIGHT NOW on Steam. Sales are greater than 0, thus, money has been scammed.
Sure, but you're still missing my point. The game being shitty doesn't make it a scam. Not being functional or having a fraction of the content its promises (early access isn't an excuse) makes it a scam.

It's an important distinction.
 

Zombie Badger

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As far as I can see there are two things that Valve needs to do with Early Access:

1) Make every developer hoping to release an Early Access game have their project vetted by Valve before it's allowed on Steam.

2) Make it mandatory that every Early Access game be playable in demo form so people can get their heads around it before paying for an unfinished product. Actually, have all Early Access games be free to play with the option to donate the retail price to keep a copy after the actual release.
 

Tyalmath

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Hi, just wanted to cross-post something that I mentioned on NeoGAF:


"Posting this here because all of the other related threads have been deleted from the Steam forums.

As mentioned in Jim's video, there have been several threads attempting to link this guy to Aaron Bishop - a game developer who apparently had some rough goings with a Kickstarter campaign a few years ago. After poking around a bit, it seems this is a completely unrelated developer by the name of Danya Sheva (Даня Шева) from Ukraine. He also goes by the alias BrendRoku on Mod DB/Indie DB and has another game to his credit, entitled "Gear".

ModDB profile: http://www.moddb.com/members/brendroku/games (note the early previews for Gear from such groups as "EveryGamer USA" and "Gamer Plus")

Youtube profile w/ Gear trailer: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3c...XxXyBKnrrP1trQ"


It is odd that the guy is deleting the Bishop-related threads, but I think he's just sweeping everything and not just those specifically.
 

DrOswald

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NuclearKangaroo said:
alright maybe giving devs mod powers in the forums of their game isnt such a great idea, i can see what valve is trying to do, try to give devs their own forums if they dont have a website, but this story ive seen get repeated way too many times from shitty devs

steam should at least take away the dev's ability to delete threads and posts

i guess the one good thing about this is that steam reviews are doing their job and the store page of the game is flooded with negative reviews as it should be
If steam took away the ability for developers to moderate their game forums then the forums would instantly become useless. Steam cannot possibly afford moderating every single forum and without moderation forums quickly turn into useless pits of crap.

Steams problem is that it is idealistic. It gives developers all the tools they need to release a game and build a community around that game. This is a good thing. The bad part comes in where people abuse these amazing tools to do things like this.

This is the eternal usability vs security dilemma all over again, just with a slight twist. The idea is simple - the more usable the tool is the more prone to abuse it is. The classic example is in the storage and transfer of large money. Clients need access to their money, but people will attempt to steal it, so you need to put in security measures so it cannot be stolen, but those security measures will inevitably decrease the access clients have to their money.

Steam has opted to make the tool as usable as possible and trust in us, the consumer, to make informed decisions. This is the purpose of greenlight - we decide what gets on Steam. This is why Early access and steam forums exist - both great tools for the developer and gamers who use them correctly. But the very usefulness of these tools opens them up for abuse.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Steam could lock it down hard, but do we really want that? Because that is what it will take. Steam cannot afford to hire enough people to do the kind of surgical quality control we would like.
 

Rabid_meese

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I knew I shouldn't have looked at the comment section. A promising premise filled with fear mongering and nonsensical notions of quality control.

The 'word of mouth' bit is something that's really concerning. Its essentially saying "Yeah, just peddle some shit. The consumer should know better then to buy shit." Its a dodge, of course. Operating under the notion that any and everyone using Steam should be part of an interconnected community that operates like a hive mind. That, of course, isn't true. But assuming it was - the control of the forums to censor criticism directly undercuts this idea of a "Free Market trumps all" approach.

Its in Steam's best interest to invoke some method of quality control - a point Jim has hammered home repeatedly. If you start shoveling shit onto Steam, consumers will lose faith in Steam. And given how everyone wants a piece of the digital distribution pie, all it takes is a few solid cracks are all that's needed to break Steam apart. No company or intellectual property is above the 'too big to fail' notion - you can point to Atari, Sega, Nintendo, and Guitar Hero if you want examples. You can't expect that an audience today will be around tomorrow. And if a company like Steam falls, that opens up a whole host of issues for the end consumer.

And, again. Let's compare Steam to any other store, digital and retail. Yeah, they may have some crap. But they don't post the crap all over the walls and hand out fliers advertising it. Even digital marketplaces, which are huge shitstorms, you see ways of filtering content that makes sure that the cream rises to the top. And even then - how much faith do you have on purchases you make on the App Store or Google Play?

Steam having control of what it puts out is a good thing. Every store decides what stock to carry, because every purchase is an issue of trust. Yeah, their old way had a few examples of bullcrap. I'd rather have 10 Paranautical Activity controversies if it meant that we weren't getting a New Release section stuffed with Pajama Sam and Freddi Fish.
 

KungFuJazzHands

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The people at Valve don't care about this kind of shit until the shit's been scooped up and thrown in their faces.

Ask yourselves this: if it takes a huge public outcry for these kinds of debacles - the Earth: Year 2066s, the From Dusts, the War Zs - to be rectified, what makes you think it's going to get any easier for the consumer end if Valve actually start handing more policing power to their customers like some of you apparently wish they would? There has to be a certain amount of responsibility and accountability expected from all parties involved, and Valve have historically shown a glaring lack of attention to their customer base by disregarding and prolonging situations like the one we're seeing with Earth 2066.

There can't be any meaningful changes until the guys holding the power at the top acknowledge that changes need to be made.

Valve have undoubtedly already received multiple direct complaints about Earth and Muxwell's behavior, yet the game is still being sold, and Muxwell is still getting away with manipulating the Early Access system and the Steam community itself. Valve need to start curating their shit before the pile gets any bigger and completely suffocates the rest of the industry.

Ultimately, I guess the most important question is this: how the holy horrible fuck did Earth: Year 2066 get onto Steam in the first place?
 

veloper

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Thanatos2k said:
But how much of a police state are we willing to put up with, just so the citizens nolonger need to be careful and think for themselves? Do we trust the police enough to arrest potential criminals before they can actually commit the crime?
You act like Steam is the only way to sell PC games. If Steam throws people out of the city, they can set up shop on the borders and hawk their wares there. Steam should be checking passports at the border instead of just dozing near an open gate.
That's too drastic. Not every small entrepreneur is a crook and even the skilled will have trouble making ends meet when limited to just the surrounding villages. I don't trust Valve with arbitrary criteria for entry.
 

DrOswald

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KungFuJazzHands said:
The people at Valve don't care about this kind of shit until the shit's been scooped up and thrown in their faces.

Ask yourselves this: if it takes a huge public outcry for these kinds of debacles - the Earth: Year 2066s, the From Dusts, the War Zs - to be rectified, what makes you think it's going to get any easier for the consumer end if Valve actually start handing more policing power to their customers like some of you apparently wish they would? There has to be a certain amount of responsibility and accountability expected from all parties involved, and Valve have historically shown a glaring lack of attention to their customer base by disregarding and prolonging situations like the one we're seeing with Earth 2066.

There can't be any meaningful changes until the guys holding the power at the top acknowledge that changes need to be made.

Valve have undoubtedly already received multiple direct complaints about Earth 2066 and Muxwell's behavior, yet the game is still being sold, and Muxwell is still getting away with manipulating the Early Access system and the Steam community itself. Valve need to start curating their shit before the pile gets any bigger and completely suffocates the rest of the industry.

Ultimately, I guess the most important question is this: how the holy horrible fuck did Earth: Year 2066 get onto Steam in the first place?
Steam Greenlight. The gaming community voted it onto the market.
 

Shadow-Phoenix

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shrekfan246 said:
That's exactly how the video game crash of '83 happened, you realize.

There was zero regulation on what was flooding the marketplace, leading to endless numbers of terrible clones and unfinished shovelware being pushed out and completely saturating the market, bursting the bubble and causing people to basically stop buying games because they couldn't put any faith that what they were buying was actually going to be good.

The exact same thing is now currently happening with Steam.

The problem with the complete lack of oversight put on Greenlight and Early Access is that consumers will support things based on an idea rather than any hard evidence. In an ideal world, that would be fine. But we don't live in an ideal world. When you combine that with the fact that Steam allows publishers to dump their entire back catalogs onto its service and how many publishers have recently taken to shoving mobile ports and Facebook or Flash-esque games onto the platform, it all coalesces into a horrifying congealed mess that makes Steam impossible to navigate and simply hides and takes publicity away from the games and developers who actually deserve it.

Or to put it more simply, it's just bad business for Steam to allow this. PC gaming is an open platform, but Steam is the biggest "storefront" you'll find on it. For the longest time, many games simply would not be successful on the PC if they weren't released on Steam. By allowing anything and everything to be released on Steam now, people will be burnt out on trying to sift through the sheer amount of complete crap found every day on the front page, and eventually they'll stop bothering. I know, it's already started happening to me. The weekly deals and daily releases on Steam are almost uniformly terrible and not worth even looking at, and at a point it becomes no longer worth trying to cycle through all of the crap to find the good stuff.

EDIT: And it has been confirmed by many indie developers in the past that being on the front page of Steam matters. It creates a huge spike in sales, and when their game moves off the front page they get a dramatic drop in overall sales until it gets discounted.
This, all of this is exactly how I've felt about Steam the past 2-3 years, I've hardly been interested to even bother sifting through Steam's front page and even then the genres (which still seem cluttered and wrongly placed at times).

The recent indie titles on my Steam list were mostly Early Access games gifted to me by friends and a good chunk of those turned out to suck and in general become something awful with only PA RTS and Starbound being the tiny exceptions on my list, the rest are older AAA titles of slightly new and old that I knew were great in general without having to visit site after site, watch video after video to be told if the game sucks or not.

Before I hopped onto Steam and played on my PS3 and eventually the 360 I knew exactly what i was getting into when I;d bought those games for those platforms, I hardly had to do any form of special research or rely on someone like TB or Angry Joe like some total messiah that will lead us to the promised land of gaming, back then things were more or less decent and simple.

Now I don't even feel like looking at the front page of Steam at all, I'm just entirely put off by it and now all I rely on is after closing a game that Steam has a popup to let me know one of my old bookmarked games is on sale that I know are good to begin with, that's really all I have left.

I'm in your boat but at the same time the few here that say we should be allowed the bad and the good feels the equivalent of saying "you don't like the bad shit, leave because I was here first and what we say as a people goes", it's more worse than the actual store itself...

I'd much rather walk into a store like HMV and at least know what's in there isn't bootlegged crap or shit I have to forcefully sift through and mostly ask complete strangers "yo is this bootlegged beetles album any good?", I'd rather Steams old QA than Community and no QA at all, I don't want oversaturated shit and a random stranger certainly should never be put in charge of the store I'd want to shop at.

In short Steam still needs to get it's crap together, people need to really get over the user controlled "open environment" because it just goes against other people in the long run or forces your will on theirs, get over it and let Steam return to what it should be, a store front with store controlled QA, other popular world renowned stores exist in this world with their QA, steam can god damn do the same and live.

Also Steam still has it;s own flaws and that too needs to be acknowledged, don't ask, just do not, realise and understand.
 

What Do I Care

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Hello, sorry if any else has done a similar post/thread already, just got really pissed off after watching this that I had to post.

$20 for that, it just plain beyond me. And stealing someone else's art work that's low. I would like steam to change the name from "early access" to "In development" which would take out a lot of confusion for new steam users, who think they are getting something good content for their hard earned cash.

And instead of having to pay a fee up front you can play the development version for free, but have an optional donate to development button with a minimum payment of £1.00. When the game comes out for proper You will pay less or for free depending on how much you gave. If you donated more than retail price that's when the developer has to give you back something, maybe a special edition with some goodies our a share in the profits (something small like 0.1%)in the game which go back into your steam wallet? Just an idea.

Finally as an artist myself critique is part of the experience/job and you have chosen, and to deny it actually weakens your work in the long run. Nothing wrong with having a singular vision and a bit of an ego towards your chosen practice ,you got to stay true to what you believe is right for the work and yourself. But to pretend that no one has anything bad to say about your work and deleting other people comments from history shows you don't have much confidence in your own game/ artwork.

Glad I got that out of me.
 

What Do I Care

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What Do I Care said:
Hello, sorry if any else has done a similar post/thread already, just got really pissed off after watching this that I had to post.

$20 for that, it just plain beyond me. And stealing someone else's art work that's low. I would like steam to change the name from "early access" to "In development" which would take out a lot of confusion for new steam users, who think they are getting something good content for their hard earned cash.

And instead of having to pay a fee up front you can play the development version for free, but have an optional donate to development button with a minimum payment of £1.00. When the game comes out for proper You will pay less or for free depending on how much you gave. If you donated more than retail price that's when the developer has to give you back something, maybe a special edition with some goodies our a share in the profits (something small like 0.1%)in the game which go back into your steam wallet? Just an idea.

Finally as an artist myself critique is part of the experience/job and you have chosen, and to deny it actually weakens your work in the long run. Nothing wrong with having a singular vision and a bit of an ego towards your chosen practice ,you got to stay true to what you believe is right for the work and yourself. But to pretend that no one has anything bad to say about your work and deleting other people comments from history shows you don't have much confidence in your own game/ artwork.

Glad I got that out of me.
Realized 0.1% really adds up, so maybe not the best idea.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Deadagent said:
Start adressing actual arguments or shut up.
But I am. If I wasn't, you'd wouldn't have kept talking to me past the point of telling me to shut up. xD

To the issues at hand.
Deadagent said:
The issue Jim is bringing up isn't simply that there are bad games being put on Steam. It is that the devs doing so are able and sometimes do silence anyone saying something they don't like about their games in the forums.
Some are even putting out fake reviews.
Yeah I can agree that they shouldn't give the devs that much control over the forums

This means that we can't just go by word of mouth and have faith that what people are saying about the game on the site are true.
This is bad because not all people who play games are going on to site like the Escapist and having people like Jim let us know who is trying to lie.
Most people are, and in this case the word of mouth spread fast enough before really big damage could be done. Same happended with guise of the wolf etc.

People for quality control on Steam don't want such because they want Steam to die. They want it so Steam can improve and continue.
I didn't think Jim wanted Steam to die, but calling for Quality control goes directly against opening up the platform wich has been the entire goal for Valve. I dont think throwing greenlight or similar systems out of the window entierly is the solution, Improving it yes. But corporate curated quality control is not the answer. Community managed quality control maybe? An easy way to get a refund? Something like that but not the traditional quality control method definetly.
You and others seem to think that the discussion is about how getting rid of Steam, and other places like it, completely is the only way to go if we want quality control.

Such is NOT the case.
As you said as well, we just have to change and adjust the system so opportunist like the one Jim's talking about can't use their power to try and sell a flawed product by controlling the information about it.

I've not seen anyone yet saying that we should just do away with Steam. It's not the problem, but rather one of the victims.
Some well constructed quality control would protect customers and the sites themselves.
 

Thanatos2k

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jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
jehk said:
Thanatos2k said:
No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.
I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.
The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.
Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all off these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.
Jim bought a copy in order to play it, assumedly. It's still available for sale RIGHT NOW on Steam. Sales are greater than 0, thus, money has been scammed.
Sure, but you're still missing my point. The game being shitty doesn't make it a scam. Not being functional or having a fraction of the content its promises (early access isn't an excuse) makes it a scam.

It's an important distinction.
To Valve it shouldn't be. Valve should be policing both out of its storefront.
 

Thanatos2k

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veloper said:
Thanatos2k said:
But how much of a police state are we willing to put up with, just so the citizens nolonger need to be careful and think for themselves? Do we trust the police enough to arrest potential criminals before they can actually commit the crime?
You act like Steam is the only way to sell PC games. If Steam throws people out of the city, they can set up shop on the borders and hawk their wares there. Steam should be checking passports at the border instead of just dozing near an open gate.
That's too drastic. Not every small entrepreneur is a crook and even the skilled will have trouble making ends meet when limited to just the surrounding villages. I don't trust Valve with arbitrary criteria for entry.
That is not Valve's problem. Valve should not be feeding the homeless. Valve should be interested in one thing only - selling games that are worth the money being charged for them.

All others should be thrown out, violently if necessary.