Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

quantumsoul

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In Dragon Age: Origins sex wasn't the always the endgame. If you pursue Morrigan you can have sex from the start but later on in the romance she even refuses sex if she is in love. I wont spoil anything but her romance becomes about something far greater than just sex. There is even DLC to continue the romance past the main game and there isn't even sex at the end of it.
 

Mahoshonen

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15 years ago, I remember seeing the cover of a video game magazine showing a naked Duke Nukem groping an equally-naked Lara Croft while the blurb proudly trumpeted "GAMES ARE MATURE!" without the slightest hint of awareness.

I feel a little sad knowing that attitude hasn't changed.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Was kind of talking about this with a friend a bit ago.
I really wish they replaced the sex scenes with something a little more interesting to do. Like say taking them out on dates as a mini quest after you make the relationship "official". Get to know the characters, just for the sake of getting to know them. Instead of getting to know them so you can get into their pants easier.

Thank God for you Jim.
WMDogma said:
Hey all,

The video should be playing properly now. Please let me know if there are anymore problems!
Whatever you did, it worked for me at least. :D So thanks!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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The scenes with the fatty char in SRIV made me laugh a lot. I will try that as hell when I get me hands on that game.
 

xPixelatedx

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Quite frankly, I don't need anymore "story" or "EMOTIONS" in TripleA games; they have far too much for my likening as is. You know how I would solve the sex scene problem? Don't have sex scenes all together; video games never really needed them just like they never really needed most of what Gen 7 brought to the table. I just want to play games and have stupid fun, and it's becoming quite a chore to find anything that does that, that isn't a Nintendo exclusive or an indi game.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Hmm it's true, to be honest.. I hadn't really thought about it... but I couldn't think of ANY actually decent sex scenes.
I suppose it connects to the ye old debate about the role of females in VGs, and the fact that still most games are created as escapist fantasies for a very limited (albeit large) demographic.

But to be honest and I'm not trying to rile anyone up, how often do we see very good, mature, well written, or intelligent character relationships in games?

Mcoffey said:
That's why I think the Witcher 2 handles sex the best. It's not portrayed as a "reward", or the culmination of anything. It's just something Geralt does every now and then when he feels like it. Much like a person does in real life.
Except that's not true, come on, you even collect sex cards, and the scenes tend to come out of nowhere and have little to no importance to the plot of the game at all. The Witcher is great, but a lot of it seems to be there only to justify how "mature" and "gritty" it is, half of the time it makes me roll my eyes, since trying so hard reveals how helplessly immature it really is.

I suppose as a lot of people have said, even if they did manage to get astounding fidelity and excellent narrative, these scenes are probably better off left to the imagination, since honestly, everything to date looks like awkward puppet shows.
 

hentropy

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I dunno, in Mass Effect at least I thought it wasn't so bad if you take it through all three games- sure, if you take each game individually then it's just, insert top response, nookie at the end. I actually felt at the end of 3 though, if you romanced someone like Liara, you could sense that your character and Liara actually cared for one another.

It's true that most sex scene are quite robotic, though, but if I'm not mistaken after ME1 and DAO, they stopped doing full bad camera angle M for Mature porno.

But as someone above me stated, I'm not sure what you would consider mature squishy, Jim. I mean, games by design means you have to perform certain acts before getting anything, whether it be loot or emotional connections. I guess if you wanted it to be more realistic you could make sex a dice roll, but that would just mean people would keep reloading.
 

Eve Charm

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Eh I thought the first Mass effect one was rather good, It wasn't love. You got to know one or both the characters, and at a really low depressing point in the story. It's like were about to do something really illegal, were probably all gonna die, you know whats comforting, sex go at at it.

The scene at least made sense, and you weren't expecting nor did it need a ton after it. It just wouldn't make sense to really make it " oh you had sex with this character they are gonna be super clingy with you till the end of the game now and you've unlocked the married ending.
 

ColdinT

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Huh. According to Jim, the definition of the "Friend Zone" has changed a bit from what I remember.
 

Legion

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Okay, moving on....
Legion said:
It is difficult enough to do anything sexual without accusations of pandering as it is.
But as it is, it almost certainly is pandering. I mean, pandering is pretty much mainstream gaming's raison d'être. I think that's why Jim goes on about the difference in terms of pretense. Because one group of games tries to pretend they're adult and classy while treating sex like a game and another markets with "she kicks real high."
I am not sure how to respond, seeing as I said in the next paragraph:

"Granted in a lot of cases it is"

I am aware that it normally is pandering, but my point is that unless the response is "Don't have any sex scenes at all" I am not seeing any suggestions as to how to make mature sex scenes in games. Somebody mentioned Katawa Shoujo, but that is a visual novel based around relationships, it isn't a game in itself, the relationships are the game when it comes down to it.

Most games that have the not-so-mature sex scenes are not focusing on the romantic relationships of the characters involved as the main point of the story, so how exactly can sex be shown maturely, and even then without it being accused of pandering?

I can think of many ways to have a relationship between two characters mature, but sex scenes are always going to be unnecessary when it comes down to it, so will always get accusations of being included purely for the sake of it.

Imp Emissary said:
Was kind of talking about this with a friend a bit ago.
I really wish they replaced the sex scenes with something a little more interesting to do. Like say taking them out on dates as a mini quest after you make the relationship "official". Get to know the characters, just for the sake of getting to know them. Instead of getting to know them so you can get into their pants easier.
Then the game gets called a dating simulator and the "You need a girlfriend/boyfriend" comments start. On the Bioware forums a lot of people wanted this for Mass Effect 2 as DLC or in Mass Effect 3. The people against it stated the above as the reason for why it shouldn't. They saw it as perpetuating the lonely nerd stereotype.

ColdinT said:
Huh. According to Jim, the definition of the "Friend Zone" has changed a bit from what I remember.
It is one of those words that has been hijacked by the internet to not mean what it did initially. A little like "entitled". The kind of person Jim is referring to are the kind of guys who think being nice to a girl means she "owes" him sex, then complains when she doesn't. It isn't what the term was originally meant to convey, but thanks to those kinds of guys using it, it is what a lot of people associate with it.
 

Erttheking

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I actually like the romances in Mass Effect and Persona, mainly because in Mass Effect things carry over from game to game and you feel like your relationship actually means something in terms of the narrative, but then again I could stand to see them done a bit better. Though to be honest I don't think Mass Effect 2 even had much on screen sex. You just kiss Tali and Thane, you touch foreheads with Garrus, and with Jack I got the massive implication that there WASN'T any sex, that the two of them just cuddled. Granted Miranda and Jacob got bit more steamy, but I thought the general consensus was that those two were some of the weaker romances anyway. Heck, Persona 4 doesn't have any sex at all "You spend a long time with x" implications aside. Granted I find the idea of being able to romance multiple people annoying, but all of the relationships themselves come off as real and the Christmas scene after the relationship is just sweet.

I think a lot of the problems with relationships not having a big impact after the sex scene is discussed in the latest Extra Credit video.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-illusion-of-choice

Long story short, having massive branches that go off depending on choices that you make are a pain to program and cost a lot of money.

Also I do have to agree with the people arguing that you're saying that if sex is included, it's automatically pandering. I mean...when isn't it? It's next to impossible to get some people off your back for acknowledging that sex exists in the first place, and apparently we shouldn't be half assing it with half a boob shot. But just as many people get pissed at the Witcher for full on sex scenes, causal sex at that, because apparently THAT is immature too.

How did the Human race make sex so fucking complicated?
 

cynicalsaint1

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I'm going to have to disagree with you on some points. As I like the romance subplots in Bioware games, as I tend to become attached to the various characters and enjoy watching the romances play out. I mean to me the part of Bioware games I tend to enjoy the most are all the characters - the romance subplots add to that.

And I also disagree that the sex scene is the ultimate culmination of all that - Bioware has been getting better about this as time goes on too - sprinkling little bits of extra dialog here and there (in Dragon Age for example having references to it in the companion dialog and such while you're running around). And while I wish there was more of it - I really think that if you look at things you'll see that sex isn't always presented as the "Ultimate Goal!" - for example in Dragon Age - sex comes fairly easily in Zeveran's and Isabella's (in DA2) romance arc. I mean - I agree that I wish they could work the romance plots into the game more, but

As for "Sex as a reward for being nice" I'm going to ask you how would you do it differently? Keep in mind that you want allow the player of the agency in their in-game romance choice. Remember that you have limited time and budget to make everything work. I can agree that the way its done maybe isn't ideal, but I'm not sure what they would do - I mean its not like every character in every game is romance-able - hell, in DA2 for example you can flirt all you want with Aveline and she'll just shoot you down no matter what.

Furthermore, I find it a little disingenuous to argue that it makes people think that sex should be a reward for being nice to a girl when I can easily apply your arguments about not being desensitized to violence by violent video games here. I mean its only like we're even talking about male characters romancing female characters - in DA:O you can have hot gay elf-on-dwarf action if you really want it, so I'm not sure the sexism angle really applies here. I mean somehow I find the romance plots to be one of my favorite parts of Bioware games, yet I'm completely able to not expect sex every time I'm nice to a girl because funnily enough I don't expect game mechanics to reflect the real world.

Mostly I'm disappointed that you seem to want to actively discourage developers from even trying - what it sounds like you're saying here is "I don't like the way you're doing sex and romance in your games, so its bad and you shouldn't do it until you figure out a way I like better". I mean I'll agree that it isn't perfect - but at least they're trying and from what I've seen getting better at it as time goes on - see Garrus and Tali pairing up on their on in ME3, or only being able to actively fail at attempting to romance Aveline in DA2 for example. It seems to me that they're actually trying to make these kind of romance subplots to work better - and a lot of people enjoy them (or they wouldn't keep doing them), so I'm having a hard time seeing what the harm is.
 

DarkhoIlow

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Bioware should look at Witcher 2 and see how romance is done there (I'm not talking about paying hookers) but the romance with Triss was very well done if you were faithful for her from the first game. Also the reason which made me choose the right thing in the end act of the game and I don't regret it.
 

Hawkeye21

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quantumsoul said:
In Dragon Age: Origins sex wasn't the always the endgame. If you pursue Morrigan you can have sex from the start but later on in the romance she even refuses sex if she is in love. I wont spoil anything but her romance becomes about something far greater than just sex. There is even DLC to continue the romance past the main game and there isn't even sex at the end of it.
But then developers chickened out and refused to continue that storyline any further. Yah, sure, we know that Morrigan is going to be in Inquisition, but protagonist is not Gray Warden from the first game, so whats the point. It really buggers me when devs start a great story line and then refuse to give it an appropriate ending, thus completely making the whole thing meaningless.
 

Vivi22

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Legion said:
Not that I disagree with what you say, but I think it'd have been good to say what you think the alternative to it is. It's all well and good pointing out how the sex scenes are often done poorly, but you never really say how they could do it maturely.
To be honest, he basically hints at some ways by simply making his argument. If you want sex to be done maturely, then it can't be the goal. The relationship with the character, and continuing to build it needs to be the goal. Sex can be something that happens, but how about showing it for what it often is. Sex like that typically shown in video games is little more than a vapid, idealized fantasy that doesn't exist in the real world. No one behaves like that while having sex. Sex can be awkward, it can be great, it can be awful, it can be disturbing. It can bring couples closer, or it can push them apart. But it is never the goal. It is a single step along the path of building a relationship with someone.

Until game companies can at least get that through their heads, then nothing else they do with sex will ever matter.
 

K12

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I've been thinking something similar to this for awhile on the "girls don't like nice guys" and "friendzone" stuff. Women have sex with people they are attracted to not to reward people who are nice to them.

Guys that complain "I'm nice so I can never get my end away" are full of it.
 

JarinArenos

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jehk said:
OT: Only thing I disagree with is the shity music bit. I've always loved this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc_xqnTKWw] song despite not really liking the many of the scenes during which it played.
That's some decent music... but dear god does it exemplify the 'enya-sounding music' and is a horrible choice for any sort of game romance scene. (might fly if there was some *actual* romance, but I've yet to see that in a non-fixed-storyline game).

Mcoffey said:
I think at one point Triss, Geralts significant other, wants to have sex and you do (Or don't) with her, but it's not for completing a quest or giving her gifts. She just wants to.
Oh god, the bath scene... Geralt nearly tripping over his pants trying to get his boots off was quite possibly the best-done cutscene segment in that game.


My opinion... it's nearly impossible (might happen someday but I haven't seen it) to have both player agency and actual romance in a game.
 

Sushewakka

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Hawkeye21 said:
quantumsoul said:
In Dragon Age: Origins sex wasn't the always the endgame. If you pursue Morrigan you can have sex from the start but later on in the romance she even refuses sex if she is in love. I wont spoil anything but her romance becomes about something far greater than just sex. There is even DLC to continue the romance past the main game and there isn't even sex at the end of it.
But then developers chickened out and refused to continue that storyline any further. Yah, sure, we know that Morrigan is going to be in Inquisition, but protagonist is not Gray Warden from the first game, so whats the point. It really buggers me when devs start a great story line and then refuse to give it an appropriate ending, thus completely making the whole thing meaningless.
(SPOILERS FOR DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS)

After using the Warden to complete her Old God Baby plot, or after the Warden refuses to play his role in that plot, she leaves. Surprise, she has her own agenda and motivations, and will see them finished, the Warden becoming little more than an obstacle at this point. She might feel a tinge of regret and be conflicted about her newfound ability to feel emotions, but she's her own person with her own plans.

There, that's your conclusion. She leaves you.
 

Jodah

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Mcoffey said:
That's why I think the Witcher 2 handles sex the best. It's not portrayed as a "reward", or the culmination of anything. It's just something Geralt does every now and then when he feels like it. Much like a person does in real life.

Captcha: "And that's the way it is". Yes it is, Captcha. Yes it is.

EDIT: Also can I just say how terribly I'm looking forward to the reaction to this vid at the Bioware Social Network? I can only imagine the rage at Jim for calling out their precious romances. It will be glorious!
Plus in Witcher 1/2 sex is just sex and with Geralt there is no risk so casual sex is only for the temporary pleasure. Basically how it is in real life. It's not gussied up to make it romance, it's just going at it like woodchucks.