Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

Rebel_Raven

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gyrobot said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Hopefully that japanese company (I forget the name atm. rawr) that Escapist posted news on opening up a base in California will help change things in videogame romance in the western world. Then again, stores have to have the balls to stock these games, I guess.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a strong relationship mechanic in a game, and a relationship that brings about emotion, and what not.

Of course, wanting variety, and being a quiet perv, I wouldn't mind variation. What we have with bioware, something "fade to black," and something itneractive.

Then there's the whole issue the industry has with LGBT relationships. :/ Relationships in games don't do me a whole lot of good if I can't invest in them. then it becomes an excercise in what I can get out of it.
Buuut that's not saying it's impossible to invest in a straight woman's relationship from the woman's point of view. I took a shine to Zaeed (sadly not dateable) and Garrus in Mass Effect.
Still, I want LGBT relationships.

Then again, there aren't exactly a lot of games in the modern console era where women have relationships, and even less where they have a choice in the matter. Again, I hope the Japanese Game company that set up base in California can change that.
Speaking of Japan, despite the eroge industry with few exceptions (like Vahalla Knights 3 and Yakuza 3-5) there is very little if any actual sex in their console/handheld games. At best the play is treated to swimsuit/bathing tease. Never you see them going at it unless it was from Atlus. Hell Drakengard 3's approach to sex is going to interesting since it has been said repeatedly than Zero and some of the Utautai are not virgins and I wouldn't been too surprised if they actually give us a softcore scene or at least some burden of proof.
Yeah, very little sex outside of the PC element, and I'm fine with that, honestly, because they don't realy shy away from relationships.

I really think that if the sexual failings are going to stop it's Japan that'll make it happen first.
But this thread reminded me that Senran Kagura Burst existed, and that I was interested in it. I looked it up on google shopping, and no major store chain was carrying it. Not even Gamestop. Yeah, I know it's not the most wholesome game in the world, but it honestly makes me worry that no store would carry an Otome game. Yes, I realize Senran Kagura, and Otome games in general are worlds apart. The point I'm getting at is that lack of ease in people getting them, and likely a lack of media attention may hamper the potential horizeon broadening experiences. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, though. Maybe Senran Kagura Burst isn't yet in the western world to begin with? I heard it was getting translated for western release.
 

Soundwave

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PrarieDog_319 said:
Reciprocity means an equal exchange. That is what the word means. If I shoot you in the foot, and you shoot me in the foot, that is reciprocity. If I buy you a Honda Civic, and you buy me a Cessna Caravan, that is not reciprocity. But it would be appreciated. :)
Actually, reciprocity just means that there is an exchange, not that it's an equal exchange. It could be proportional according to the means of the two parties. As an example, I can feed my cat, and my cat can rub itself up on my leg affectionately. He doesn't have to make me a sandwich for our relationship to be reciprocal.
 

The Ubermensch

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Aardvaarkman said:
Absolutely not. The economy was much worse in the 70s, and Australia in particular remained in recession through the 80s and even into the 90s. Since you cite Australia, our economy is quite strong at the moment - young people have more disposable income than ever, and we have access to cheap goods like we never did before, and the Australian dollar has been hitting unprecedented high levels.




When talking about Australia, you have to remember that the only reason we're doing as well as we are is because of the commodities market. You also have to remember that the Housing market its absolutely ridiculous for first home buyers, ten years ago you'd pay 300k for a four bedroom two bathroom in the Perth NMA, the same property is now worth 800k, not counting taxes, and wages haven't gone up that much to compensate. If you want something reasonably priced you have to go out to the sticks in the middle of butt fuck no where, and you're still paying 500k for a completed house. And the price of renting is absolutely fucking absurd. I'd love to buy or rent a small 2 bedroom, but they don't exist or are reserved for people aged over 55.

The high dollar is great for the individual, don't get me wrong, but it's destroying local business who have to pay for land, electricity and pay for wages. You're average shopper will window shop, ask a shop keeper questions, go home and look for the product online with no regard for how the economy actually works. I've got no issue with going online and shopping, but if you've got to go to a shop and ask a retailer about a product you should buy the product from the retailer simply because the extra money you're spending is to pay for his wages. The extra money is to pay for that extra service, if you need it, then pay for it. The state of small businesses, coupled with Liberals cutting up a bunch of Labour's green energy subsidies and intensives is only making us more dependent on the commodities market. We have very little domestic manufacturing these days, or have you not noticed?

The whole idea of cheaper goods is a false economy; products these days are made to fail after 2 or 3 years. The saying "They don't make things like they used to" is true. Businesses make more in the long run if they sell cool gadgets with shitty components at a low price every few years than they do if they sell you an expensive jacket that will last you until the day you die.

Our society is now full of disposable plastic tic tacs, so thanks for proving my point.

Once again, incorrect. Generation X was a "baby bust" generation following the baby boom, and there were far fewer Generation X kids born in the West than their parents' generation. Look at the chart you post, how the population drops off over 35. That is not because people were dying in their 30s to 50s - average life expectancy is higher than that.
But the important thing is the age discrepancy leading to a differing of values. Gen X and the baby boomers grew up in similar environments, but I won't deny that it didn't have an effect on Gen X. If you want my completely subjective opinion on the matter, having the Big, Loud, Opinionated older sibling that was the Baby Boomer left Gen X muted and ineffectual. Every single Gen X person I talk to simply seems to assimilate the opinions of media with an un-impassioned sense of inevitability. This latest election, and again I state that this is anectodal, every single Gen X;

>I don't like Abbot, but we need to get our debt under control
...We have a debt to GDP ratio of under 20%
>But we need to get it under control
Japan has a debt to GDP ratio of 210%, but due to those investments they are going to dominate the domestic robotics industry for the next 80 years
>Oh, but we need to get our debt under control
Don't you have a mortgage? you know, debt, that's building up equity.
>But Australia's got several billion dollars in debt
Australia's a fucking nation
>Oh, well I'm still voting Liberal

My sides when the CFM said they were going to increase Australia debt further. Labour at least had viable economic plans that were going to pay off. It really makes you wonder what the Liberal shadow ministry was doing aside from complain about "debt" while Labour was in power.

And this is all because the Baby Boomers are conservative, Gen X listens to its Onii-sama with a sense of futility, and my generation are a bunch of fucking uneducated tradies trying to earn enough to make it in this "Good Economy".

And again, Generation X was born into economic recession, while their parents were born into a post-WWII era of economic growth and an unprecedented increase in living standards. Meanwhile, Generation X was racking up debt on University educations, with few getting jobs that used or required that University education.
Don't give me that, Australia may have lost it's free tertiary education program but instead it got the Higher Education Contribution Scheme. So yeah, you racked up a bit of debt, but back then the interest on the loan was like 2% pa. Now we've got the Higher Education Loan Program, which is still pretty good but no where near as good as you guys had it, 5% PA and no subsidy if you pay upfront.

So, yeah. Nothing new going on with the current 20-something generation. And you have access to cheap technology and white collar jobs that were not available 20+ years ago. I grew up in an era when buying a computer was a rarity, because they cost thousands of dollars for not very powerful machines, combined with a struggling economy where we had little disposable income. Today with cheap Chinese manufacturing, you have access to so much great stuff for so little money.
>Nothing new

>Cheaper [disposable] technology
>White collar jobs [That our generation has no access too, lacking experience as we do.]
Upon leaving uni we are more often than not offered a contract if we can get work with a private company, meaning no job security, meaning loans have a high % pa interest if we can secure them at all. It's a glass ceiling mate.

And the ability to have conversations at a whim and socialise online is somehow a bad thing? We used to have to send fucking letters - and in many cases we didn't know that other nerds with similar interests even existed. Today you are able to find support and friendship easily, even if you have "weird" or obscure interests.
Don't get me wrong, the whole idea is very charming, but it has its price. Call me old fashioned if you will but if I'm having lunch with someone I don't want him or her checking their phone every 20 seconds while I'm talking to them. And the "ability to shop anywhere in the world" leaves most economic models in tatters. Baby boomers and Gen X want all of this inter-connectivity but they also want the traditional capitalist model, which, while it's worked well before, is not suited to a Type One Society. And we're not changing fast enough to cope, where as nations like China, India and Japan are. We are lucky we've got the commodities market, but it's not going to last forever. Though it will until it's no longer your generations problem, so thanks for that.

But, lets go with you're belief that "Everything is exactly the same and what your generation is going through is what previous generations went through."

Well you lot fucking learnt from history didn't you?
 

Riot3000

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This is just crazy lets just get rid of relationships in video games all together if it causes this crazy black and white dichotomy that only comes up on the internet and really just makes everyone involved a pretentious ass.
 

lowkey_jotunn

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Lightknight said:
I'm sorry if I've missed it. I checked the first few pages and didn't see Jim clarify.

But is there an alternative for how he'd like it to work?
Snipped the rest to save valuable forum space ;)

The two alternatives I heard in the video were (1) just don't do it, or (2) be honest about the fact that you're just putting sex, nudity, or implied/partial nudity into a game to make it seem edgy/mature, sell more copies, drum up some outrage and hopefully invoke the Streisand effect.

If they actually want to make relationships in a game, without feeling like a forced grab for attention, take a look at Fire Emblem. Fighting alongside other members of your party (healing each other, blocking for each other, etc) will increase the relationship between them. If they're the same gender (or immediate family members) they'll become great friends, get stat bonuses while near each other, dual-attack with each other, etc. If they are opposing genders, they get all that, plus they can get married and have kids. No need for cut scenes of dry humping in space suits.

For long runners, you can do the Mass Effect thing and bring previous love interests into later games. Except let players keep the same significant other (if they so chose) instead of giving treating them like Bond girls : Who's Commander Shepard gonna shag this game?
 

Dragonbums

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I love these kinds of videos.

Some of the saddest people come out of the woodworks to talk here.

Especially gifting.

Christ almighty this is sad.

Look, I have a friend, whom I gave a Final Fantasy Art book to as a gift.

Why? Because she is my friend, and I care about her. I did it out of the goodness of my heart. I don't expect anything in return. I just expect we continue to be friends.

I have a male friend, who loves the shit out of Portal. What did I do? I gave him a turret for his birthday. I expected NOTHING out of him. Nothing at all. Just that he knows what a good friend I am.

I thought that's what gifts are for. But according to many users on this thread. Gifting is a secret code message for "you owe me" in sex, and any woman or man who dares turn that offer down are apparently nothing more but malicious pricks and your upset you "spent so much money on them for nothing in return" sorry guys. But I believe you are the malicious pricks. Gifting someone in the hopes that you will get sex as an end game is malicious. Nobody expects gifts. They are a surprise to the recipient. The fact that this "surprise" automatically puts them in the obligation to give up their body to you is the most sleazy, disrespectful way you can ever think of a person and their right to their own body.
 

Lightknight

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generals3 said:
The only way to please him I can think of would probably anger a lot of gamers: developing the thoughts of the characters extensively. Personally I really wouldn't like that. If there is a sex scene the last thing i'd want in the game is there to be to a 30 minutes exposé of the feelings of said woman because some people like to twist any "grey" area into a black one. (And the reason why I would hate such an exposé is because I don't give a crud about romance. I don't really care for sex scenes in games to begin with, but I can live with 5 minutes of my game time wasted in pointlessness, but add to that 30 minutes of useless talks about feelings and i just shut down the game)
If it would anger gamers, then why do it (as you seem to agree, I'm just collaborating with you here, not disagreeing)? Are games supposed to be just as sexually frustrating as real life can be? And a more in-depth character portrayal is simply adding more time needed to "achieve" sex. It isn't doing away with the fact that it is a goal/objective.

But as I said in my post, that's real life too. Relationships are cultivated and a reciprocation of the feelings we have for others are not freely given without their own conditions being met. Like I said, that's time spent, appropriate behaviors/beliefs expressed, attraction and availability. Along with any other conditions I haven't thought of. Hell, we live in a world where simply having money can be the only condition needed to be met.

So balking about there being conditions in a game that have a desired output is silly. That's just mirroring real life as best as possible without the characters being given freewill. Which, again, would result in serious ethical problems regarding us, an essentially godlike people in comparison to a video game AI, trying to bed them with no actual commitment on our end. So this isn't a problem that can be solved or changed and still be meaningful.

Thanks for voicing your thoughts.

TheCosmicKid said:
I registered to say basically this but then saw that you'd already said it.
Welcome to the escapist forums then!

I'm not hearing Jim present any good alternatives, or examples of games that do it right. This video isn't about how to portray sex in games with taste and maturity; it's just about how BioWare games don't do it. And that's disappointing. Partially it's disappointing just on the general principle that it's better to build up than to tear down. And partially it's disappointing because I think an examination of how the video game medium can and can't portray sex leads you to be more understanding of the BioWare model.

To wit: Yes, real human beings aren't robots - but video game characters *are*. Writing them is about maintaining the illusion that they're actually people. And BioWare characters are (mostly) well written. I didn't hear Jim complain otherwise. Jim's complaint as I understood it was simply about how the romance plays as a game mechanic. Well, mechanically, if a player is interacting with another character in a romantic plot, what's the best way to do it, bearing in mind that the character is actually a robot that the game is simply trying to pass as a person? Well, the devs can put the romantic plot on rails and play it out in cutscenes and the like, just like a movie or a book would. But if they want it to be *interactive*, they pretty much have to do exactly what BioWare does: let the player get to know the character by investing time with them, roleplay through decisions that the character will like, and so on. If the writing is good, then this will look like an organically developing relationship. If not - well, *there's* your problem, not the mechanics.
Very well-worded, I hope you participate more in the future with this kind of thought put into your posts.

lowkey_jotunn said:
The two alternatives I heard in the video were (1) just don't do it, or (2) be honest about the fact that you're just putting sex, nudity, or implied/partial nudity into a game to make it seem edgy/mature, sell more copies, drum up some outrage and hopefully invoke the Streisand effect.
(1) That isn't an alternative to making it better. It's just not approaching a very real and meaningful subject. Sex, whether we like it or not, is a fundamental component of being a living being. It has every right to exist in games as any other topic like loss, joy, revenge, etc. (not that you're saying it doesn't). Ignoring a subject because of the difficulty to portray it is lazy at best and cowardly at worst.

(2) I'm not sure how the company developing being honest about it changes the impact. I couldn't care less about what the developer says about a game they've already produced as their post commentary somehow change the content of the game. It's a valid comment to ask developers to call a spade a spade but I don't think Jim's comments about whether or not the content is tasteful or distastful is inherently correct. Sounds like a highly subjective comment. Perhaps the developers do feel like it's tasteful but there's plenty of other people who would never consider any sex in any movie, game, book, etc. to ever be tasteful regardless of content. I thought Mass Effect was particularly tasteful and the requirement of speaking with the person and getting to know them was a lot more meaningful than the ways other games have done it. Sure, Shepard had his/her pick of the litter but I'm not sure that making relationships frustrating is the way to go either. But I've even seen that done well. For example, Jack's love story in MA2 was remarkable. Sex wasn't necessarily the end goal and taking it too early had lasting implications.

If they actually want to make relationships in a game, without feeling like a forced grab for attention, take a look at Fire Emblem. Fighting alongside other members of your party (healing each other, blocking for each other, etc) will increase the relationship between them. If they're the same gender (or immediate family members) they'll become great friends, get stat bonuses while near each other, dual-attack with each other, etc. If they are opposing genders, they get all that, plus they can get married and have kids. No need for cut scenes of dry humping in space suits.

For long runners, you can do the Mass Effect thing and bring previous love interests into later games. Except let players keep the same significant other (if they so chose) instead of giving treating them like Bond girls : Who's Commander Shepard gonna shag this game?
Sure, but I hardly think these are necessary. In real life my wife didn't somehow become better at accomplishing tasks just because sex had occured. I didn't magically start being better at development and IT work. So I'm not sure why any direct impact on the storyline or character stats would be "better" than none. It just sounds like a relationship booster rather than necessarily any kind of life booster. At least MA had exclusivity requirements and taking a step too far forever closed some characters to the player. But the relationships were part of the storyline. A side story, yes, but an actual progression of interactions following a storyarch with plot points.

So I really don't see Jim's points as being particularly mandatory or anything other than subjectively desireable. In this vein, didn't having a wife in Skyrim give the player a stat bonus? I'm not sure how that made things more meaningful though. Sex in reality isn't all that meaningful. It can produce life, which is very much meaningful, but the action is just pleasurable and relationship affirming if anything. We place the aciton on a pedestal, especially before we experience it, but I'm surprised that Jim as an Englishman seems to also. I thought that was a thing only Americans were particularly bad at doing and that Europeans had a much more realistic view of sexual themes.
 

QtheMuse

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The best sex in any game ever was, drum roll, Aerie, from Baldur's Gate 2. Hands down.

In fact all of the Baldur's Gate love interests were probably the most enjoyable I have experience in any game ever.
 

Friederich

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See the short 'visual novel' kindness coins [http://www.freeindiegam.es/2013/04/kindness-coins-arden-kehoe-spider-jordan-battiston-michael-real/] at freeindiegam.es. For a short exposition on that kind of behaviour Jim is tallking about.
 

sageoftruth

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Boy, I laughed so hard at that spontaneous romance scene from Saints Row 4. I think I'm going to get that game.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Rebel_Raven said:
Yeah, very little sex outside of the PC element, and I'm fine with that, honestly, because they don't realy shy away from relationships.

I really think that if the sexual failings are going to stop it's Japan that'll make it happen first.
But this thread reminded me that Senran Kagura Burst existed, and that I was interested in it. I looked it up on google shopping, and no major store chain was carrying it. Not even Gamestop. Yeah, I know it's not the most wholesome game in the world, but it honestly makes me worry that no store would carry an Otome game. Yes, I realize Senran Kagura, and Otome games in general are worlds apart. The point I'm getting at is that lack of ease in people getting them, and likely a lack of media attention may hamper the potential horizeon broadening experiences. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, though. Maybe Senran Kagura Burst isn't yet in the western world to begin with? I heard it was getting translated for western release.
Thing is, with games trying to become TV/Movie quality gaming they have been shooting for Premium Cable standards of content and any game that doesn't do that is seemingly "childish".

That said, one minor caveat I have when Japan actually gives us such things. It has to be very careful with having strings attached. So far with the Sex scenes in Western Games it is simply window dressing but with Japan, they are usually linked to unlockables and progress in the game which can seem wrong. Vahalla Knights 3 is a good example.
 

TheCosmicKid

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lowkey_jotunn said:
If they actually want to make relationships in a game, without feeling like a forced grab for attention, take a look at Fire Emblem. Fighting alongside other members of your party (healing each other, blocking for each other, etc) will increase the relationship between them. If they're the same gender (or immediate family members) they'll become great friends, get stat bonuses while near each other, dual-attack with each other, etc. If they are opposing genders, they get all that, plus they can get married and have kids. No need for cut scenes of dry humping in space suits.
I don't see how this differs from the Mass Effect model, at least with respect to Jim's complaint about the "slot machine" mentality. Investing time and effort into building two characters' relationship leads to a payoff. In fact, I can see an argument that the Fire Emblem games are *worse*, because the payoff is explicitly mechanical. In Mass Effect, players put in the effort because they want to see the two characters get together. There's no other reason to do it. But in Fire Emblem, they could just be doing it for the plusses.

lowkey_jotunn said:
For long runners, you can do the Mass Effect thing and bring previous love interests into later games. Except let players keep the same significant other (if they so chose) instead of giving treating them like Bond girls : Who's Commander Shepard gonna shag this game?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you think the Mass Effect games *don't* let you keep the same significant other. They definitely do.

Lightknight said:
Very well-worded, I hope you participate more in the future with this kind of thought put into your posts.
Thank you!

sageoftruth said:
Boy, I laughed so hard at that spontaneous romance scene from Saints Row 4. I think I'm going to get that game.
Heh, yeah. I may be defending the ME romances. But the Saints Row parody was just perfect.
 

QuantumWalker

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I think a layer to this discussion that has been ignored is how things like the Video Game Content rating systems (ESRB, PEGI, ACB, etc.) and how outside groups impact the depiction sexual interactions take place in video games.

First of all virtually all games trying to incorporate mature themes and imagery into their games are going to be shooting to comply with the Mature rating which is defined (by the ESRB) as "Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language."

As far as what sexual content entails you have these handy content descriptors to use
Sexual Content - Non-explicit depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including partial nudity
Sexual Themes - References to sex or sexuality
Sexual Violence - Depictions of rape or other violent sexual acts
Partial Nudity - Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity
Nudity - Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity.

Go ahead and take a look at how the Mass Effect trilogy stack up to rating standards. None of the sex scenes present in these games are any more graphic or interactive than those found in the average James Bond movie, any of which either received a MPAA rating PG or PG-13. Compare any of the romantic scenes in any of the Pierce Brosnan Bond Films with any romantic scene in the Mass Effect trilogy. The difference is the pigmentation of the male/female's skin and how many digits they have on their hands.

Next we have the reaction to sex in video games from parent groups and the media. Between the media painting any game with sex in it as a "virtual sex simulator" (e.g. Fox News vs. Bioware) and parent groups of the past (they might still be at it I don't know) trying to keep video games "safe" for younger audiences it's difficult for game developers to even want to feature sexual interactions in their games because they immediately come under fire before they have even gotten the game on the shelf.

Want to know what else is keeping game devs from "showing more than half an ass" and maybe some side boob? Doing so would land them an Adults Only rating. That's the kiss of death for retail games. Your games gets an AO rating you won't be stocked in retail stores like Walmart, Target, Gamestop. Heck, you won't even be able to sell on certain consoles because of the policies that are enforced by them. (See Nintendo and Sony)

Now none of this says anything of the context or writing quality of these sex scenes. A tasteful depiction of a sexual relationship doesn't need full frontal nudity and a "press O to 'thrust'" mini-game to be better. They just need better writing. Despite me using a few of their games as my primary examples I'm inclined to agree with Jim about Bioware. Just putting sex in a game doesn't necessarily mean that you are showing the culmination of a relationship. It's a part of some relationships yes, but not really building up things after the act outside of a few token lines seems like your selling the experience short. But this is not the case for every romantic interest found in their games. Some do get the writing they deserve while others feel like token events thrown in to pull in another crowd.

It's tricky for me to say what is and isn't a "tasteful" way to show sex in a video game because taking the time to court your partner, learn more about them and growing as a couple are great, but walking up to someone and saying DTF works too. Likewise not every sexual encounter has to mean anything more than just that encounter. I guess it depends on how the designers frame the encounter and what the player is able to take from it. I've been thinking about some of the encounters I had playing "Katawa Shoujo" and how well written and meaningful they were. But being a visual novel it has a different structure and feel to it than for example romancing one of your party members in Persona 4. And even in KS there were a couple of moments where I raised my eyebrow.

As for the whole "friendzone" and game devs promoting shallow ideals thing... I think poor writing, poor marketing, and pandering are the bigger enemies here. Not game developers willfully trying to treat people as slot machines.
 

generals3

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Fistful of Ebola said:
You're talking past Trizzo, who pointed out that the issue Jim Sterling took is the shallow "I did nice things for you, you owe me sex" approach to relationships and sex that Mass Effect and Dragon Age took. It's a discussion worth having, if some of the nay-sayers here are to be believed quite a large number of young men actually believe the way to get sex and relationships is to simply invest enough in the women you're interested in.
Obviously the part you quoted was a response to this: "You should always do the "nice things" for the sake of doing it".

And actually what some people believe is irrelevant. Investing in a person is usually a necessary condition to get sex and relationships. Therefor having a game making you do the necessary steps and than you getting your goal isn't wrong. If the game was pretty clear that the only reason you got the relationship/sex was because of that than yes there would be a point. But said games don't. They just don't waste time with boring talks about feelings or whatever which would fill in the blanks to know without a doubt there was more to it. But I find it quite twisted that we need every piece of information given to us and no blanks left because some people just can't resist filling these blanks with the worst possible thing.

I don't think anyone is saying it's wrong to do nice things for the person you have feelings for, just that if you've never been upfront with those feelings and you develop an entitlement for those feelings to be reciprocated you're being a bit of a dick. From the woman's perspective, it's very difficult to know what a persons intentions are all of the time, especially since the average woman might have multiple men interested in her at a given time.
That's all nice and well but how did the games Jim mentioned do that? Did those characters show a feeling of entitlements? As far as i know no. All they did was being nice and spend a lot of time together and than at the end they both end up having sex. How this can be controversial is beyond me. Really, people need to lighten up and stop twisting this world in some kind of demonic hell where everything that isn't clearly Heaven-Approved must be evil.

You're swiping at phantoms there, that wasn't part of the video and sincerity isn't even a factor in why people hate the "Nice Guy" phenomenon. I'm sure most "Nice Guys" are quite sincere, but sincerity doesn't = attraction and that's the behavior people are agitated at, the feeling of entitlement to romantic feelings that the "Nice Guys" get.
Actually Jim did mention that the tasks were insincere and that's clearly part of the problem according to him. And again, none of the games suggest a feeling of entitlement. So how they reflect these bad behaviors (in RL) is beyond me.

You haven't thought your analogy through, it's not the "gotcha" you imagine it to be. The sort of behaviors that get you good grades, earn you that promotion, or snag your team a high spot in the Dota tournament is the sort of obsessive behavior that turns most people off in the dating arena. This might come as a shock but large numbers of women don't enjoy lots of attention by men who they don't have feelings for. Not giving up and working hard in school gets you good grades; not giving up and working hard in the dating arena gets you labelled a creep. Different expectations, different skill sets, different settings, different factors. There's nothing about your analogy that works.
Actually it depends. I know instances where it worked. It obviously depends on how and who but it can be evidence of "caring". Actually the most serious relationship among my peers started just like that. A guy wouldn't give up and eventually she realized a man who cared might be a nice change from her past experience which consisted of manwhores who'd cheat on her and dump her after a couple of months. But anyway. That wasn't really the analogy anyway. The analogy was being nice = studying hard. Not Being Obsessive = studying hard.

I don't know what definition the two of you are operating under but I had always understood the definition to be when someone had feelings for another but they don't reciprocate, instead preferring to be "just friends".
Well if the person doesn't want to be friends there is no friendzone. It's a nothing zone.

Agony? I don't have much sympathy for people in the "friendzone". There, I said it. I understand meeting people is hard, and having been rejected a fair few times myself I totally understand why it would be disappointing, even hurtful. That's a pretty natural expectation of dating and the most it would ever get out of me is a "I'm sorry buddy, that sucks. Next round's on me." The idea that people, especially young men with their whole lives ahead of them, are sitting there sullen and crestfallen seems melodramatic and attention-seeking to me.

If someone is agonizing over being put in the "friendzone" then I'd suggest they have an unhealthy fixation with this person.
It can be quite melodramatic. But there are emotionally fragile people out there. People come in all sizes.
 

Talvrae

The Purple Fairy
Dec 8, 2009
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I actually think you are not fair with Bioware here Jim. I mean you act like they did the Rommance story part only for the sex scene. but Bioware did the rommance since back Baldur's gate 2, and they had them in the first KotoR too, and both didnt have sex scene beyound a faid to black screen. Mass Effect only added the pg-13 lil sex scene at the end...
And i don't know but there can have emotional attachement in the Bioware rommance... i remember deciding to be faithful to Liarra in ME2, because i didnt want to screw with her for ME3, and that only when ME2 was just released...
Now on the other hand the collecting card of Witcher 1, that was a mini game for the sake of the sex...
 

ThinkerT

New member
Nov 24, 2008
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TheCosmicKid said:
Lightknight said:
I'm sorry if I've missed it. I checked the first few pages and didn't see Jim clarify.

But is there an alternative for how he'd like it to work?
I registered to say basically this but then saw that you'd already said it.

I'm not hearing Jim present any good alternatives, or examples of games that do it right.
Agree with both of you. You both said it well, so I won't reiterate much, other than to reinforce the idea that this is pretty much how it HAS to work in video games. Video games tell a (loosely) scripted story, so to some extent the relationships have to be scripted as well. You can't grow relationships "organically" any more than you can any other plot points in video games - the closest is manufactured "wooing" of the potential romantic interests, which is spending time, effort, and sometimes money on them, such as it happens in the real world. Which is pretty much how it's been handled in some of the games he mentions.

He does make a valid point that the games could do a MUCH better job of not dismissing the whole situation as some kind of "achievement" by forgetting it entirely after the sex happens. A more solid continuation of the "relationship" as part of the story (or even as side notes during the remainder) would give them more legitimacy. But I'm not sure otherwise how he's proposing the problem be addressed other than "don't do it".
 

andago

New member
Jan 24, 2012
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Fistful of Ebola said:
I give Morrigan gifts, take her side in fights, or otherwise agree with her worldview.
I repeat this process until an arbitrary number is reached.
Morrigan repays me with sex.

You don't see how this system reflects some very bad attitudes towards sex in real life?
When I played Mass effect, I took an interest in talking to liara and took her side in an argument against ashley, not because I wanted to notch up an achievement for sleeping with her, but because I felt a developing chemistry between her and the Shepherd I was role-playing in the game. When this did blossom into a relationship, it felt natural from the way things had played out through the game.

Similarly with Morrigan in Dragon Age, as my character drew away from some of the others in their beliefs and attitudes, I felt more of a kinship with Morrigan's dry wit which neatly mirrored my own dialogue choices, and so we grew closer. Things I found that she would like I gave her, because I was invested in her character, and enjoyed our interactions. This too ended up in a romantic relationship, but again was not the reason for the choices I had made throughout the game.

The only bad attitude is the one you are giving it. When I played these games for the first time I didn't expect a romantic relationship to develop between the characters, but when it did it felt natural. I wasn't performing certain actions with the expectation that it would lead to polygonal relations.

Similarly in real life I give my girlfriend gifts, take her side in fights and I do tend to agree with her world views, and yes, we have sex. The problem is not with the chain of events taking place, but the attitude you take into them and the context you place them in, which yes, in turn, would reflect a bad attitude if it was carried into real life.