Jimquisition: So, That Facebook And Oculus Rift Thing...

redknightalex

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Aug 31, 2012
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I'm surprised this got a Jimquisition extra because, in all honesty, I don't see this being as big of a deal as other extra episodes have addressed. And, frankly, I agree with Jim.

Or, more like it, I don't have an opinion on it. Facebook has never been an integral part of my life, even when I was in college and it was the only social media you could be on (talking 2005 here), and VR has never piqued my interest, so the idea that FB was spending some $400 billion with the rest coming from stocks on the Rift just did not intrigue me. I see the technology being used more as a competitor to Google Glass (you know FB wanted that) than a real gaming machine.

Facebook can have it because, as Jim said, maybe they'll make something useful out of it. And not give me headaches.
 

Ashoten

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Aug 29, 2010
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I would like to see you talk in length about the legal missteps that are going to no doubt happen because of this whole fiasco Jim but ok lets talk about what you did say.

It is the same defense I see everyone putting up "Better to sell out then go bankrupt." or "Better to sell to Facebook then to EA." Well that is a classic fallacy the name of which I forget (sorry), but it is the structure of "Ether we Pick A or we Pick B." "Ether we drink poison or we strangle orphan puppies to death." Not a very goo choice is it? It is also not a solid argument. There are many options that they could have taken here not just a couple. Maybe go to steam as you mentioned Jim. Maybe go to Notch who would love to whore himself out for indie products I am sure. Maybe go to another gaming visionary Like good Ol'Pete molluenoxaue(I cant spell :D). Or heavens forbid have a second round Kickstarter to fund the project to completion.

But this whole thing underlines why the Kickstarter system is doomed to collapse in on itself. The investors who gave of their hard earned cash willingly to get something awesome at the end are now left holding a half filled cup of promises while the developers of Occulus Rift are sitting pretty with millions. Regulations need to be enforced by the community or they will be enforced by the government and no one in the gaming community or otherwise wants to see that.
 

JenSeven

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Oct 19, 2010
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here is an idea: facebook connection + oculus rift + google glasses = seeing through another person's eyes
 

weirdee

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Apr 11, 2011
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DrOswald said:
This means your niche product will probably disappear for a while, and I can understand why you are mad about that. But if VR actually catches on I guarantee that a niche specific model far superior to the current Rift will be coming your way eventually.
That being said, it kind of destroyed the confidence that any niche company will not be bought out by a corporation at some point, so what are the chances that such a product will ever reach the market, AND be good? I don't know if anybody in crowdfunding will ever willingly invest in this kind of idea again.

On an alternate note, I'm pretty sure the people who actually put money into the product are mad for other reasons besides not getting what they thought they were getting, and don't have the luxury of just being disappointed without having any actual skin in the game.
 

martyrdrebel27

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Feb 16, 2009
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related only tangentially, but i'm still cringing over that Surgeon Simulator clip. my ribs are hurting from seeing that.
 

RobfromtheGulag

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May 18, 2010
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Glad Jim took the time to do a video on this right when it popped up. I had suspected he might.

When the news broke it was cool to totally lose your ***t, but when everyone realized that's what everyone else was doing it consequently became cool to play it down.

Like Jim I have little investment in the OR. I could have sworn a couple years back Sony copyrighted mind control or some 2099 type gibberish. Jim also brings up a good point that I (some users) probably won't want to sit around with this overweight pair of goggles on their head for extended periods of time. Remember that Nintendo Virtual thing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Boy]?

So overall the only thing I can really get upset about is if the devs really claimed they weren't going to sell out to their Kickstarter backers... and then did.
 

TristanBelmont

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While I agree that a lot of people freaked WAY the duck out about this, you've said before that just because something "could be worse" doesn't mean we should be complacent in whatever happens to be going on. Still, I suppose it could be worse. Who knows, Nintendo, lord do I love them, could have bought it and turned this thing into Virtual Boy 2: Electric Boogaloo.
 

Koltoroc

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Mar 12, 2012
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Jim is right, that it most likely will never be a mainstream thing. But it had the chance to become an awesome niche application. That chance is now gone, because to justify this expense it must become mainstream whatever the cost to recoup the investment. That means the niche will eventually be abandoned and it will be turned into something entirely different. My bet is that the (for this purpose) usable parts will be turned into a google glass copy and the rest dropped or sold to the highest bidder.

However, the Occulus rift for games is in the mid to long term dead because of this and the dream of VR most likely set back another 1-2 decades thanks to this.

But jim you are wrong in touting instagram and whatsapp as the proof that facebook doesn't tamper with acquisitions. They haven't *yet* but will eventually turn it into facebook attachments.

However, the immediate benefit facebook got out of this acquisitions is not in the services itself, but in the user databases they got in those deals. Especially whatsapp is a goldmine for this, because they got verified phone numbers to add to their data and can generate more precise profiles to sell to advertisers. That is why they paid about 40$ per whatsapp user, that is where the real value lies, a much better more detailed user profile to sell.

And this datamining and profiling is why facebook is that devil a lot of people don't want to make deals with.

Facebook will eventually add the occulus rift in one form or another into their datamining practices, it is after all what they make their money with. And that is why this product has become toxic. I will certainly not allow facebook tampered drivers doing who knows what on my system.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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Ironically, I think the fact that the OR is suddenly owned by the largest social media company on the fucking planet is going to spur mainstream gaming support. Hey, if the latest consoles are pushing social media as hard as they are, why stop there?

Which...yeah will kill the OR as a niche game device in a manner of speaking, but for completely different reasons than most are thinking.

It's a move that's left me amused, ambivalent, and largely uncertain.
Though one thing I am certain of: Since hearing the news, I know I've been laughing my arse off a lot more.
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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MinionJoe said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
What? No. Niche products are GOOD. I was not insulting OR. Just saying it was not "The Future" Zuckerbergs hopes it'll be.
Er... well... yes, of course that's entirely true. But how's Facebook getting ownership of Oculus VR hardware the lesser of all evils?

I agree that a game company getting a hold of it would have been far, far worse. Same with Microsoft/Sony. They're not interested in catering to niche markets. But neither is Facebook.

So a product that is designed from the ground-up for a niche market that is then bought out and converted for a wider audience isn't going to be good for that niche market. No matter who buys it.

Sure, maybe there's still some hope for the OR under Facebook that doesn't exist with other companies. I mean, the PS4 has root-level Facebook integration, and people can still play games without having to link a Facebook account. I just hope that remains true for the Rift. And it's possible the hardware will remain unlocked enough to work with third-party programs. Personally, I was really looking forward to trying it out with Euro Truck Simulator 2 (about as niche as one can get).

But as a specialized, niche-market product, the Oculus system is very likely dead. Especially if other on-board developers pull out as Mojang has already done.
Actually, there is a very good chance that being marketed for a wider audience will be very good for everyone involved, niche or not. What does a large budget allow? More specialized hardware(and given that John Carmack is on the team, it's a fair bet that he'll be happy about having a larger development budget). What does mass production do? Drive down production costs? What do the sort of DIY tinkerers you find in niche hobbies do with hardware? Pretty much whatever the fuck they want.

As long as we actually get a good VR headset, it really doesn't matter what Facebook wants to do with it. Hobbyists have been re-purposing hardware for their own needs for quite some time now. XBMC on the Xbox, Rockbox on iPod, Linux on... everything... if it is hardware, it can be used. Hell, people have been making head trackers with web cams for a while now. I hope that Facebook doesn't interfere with the core intended functionality of the device(i.e. an immersive gaming experience), but even if they cover half the interface with ads and feed subliminal advertisements directly into our subconscious, as long as the hardware itself is viable, we still win in the long run.
 

Sam Hayward

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Mar 27, 2014
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Part of the hype behind Oculus Rift is that it actually does what all the "meet you halfway" technologies promise, such as 3D TV, except it goes the full distance. Granted, I think its good that there is skepticism behind the product. Because we've fallen down this hole several times before. I don't think 3D is worth the money or time. Its fun, but doesn't really add so much that its worth all the extra money, especially since you sacrifice picture quality and brightness to get 3D. Yes, I do question that something like the Rift could ever be used for popular consuming/gaming by the mass market, but I'm excited for it because its the first device I've seen and used that actually does what everyone always wanted with this type of thing in the first place, and does it so well that it totally sells the concept (unlike 3D).

The reason why Facebook even bothered to buy Oculus was because what they showed must have been so convincing, that there was no doubt that it was game changing enough to want to drop $2b on it. From all accounts that I've heard that have used the latest prototypes this is the case. I personally can't wait to get my hands on it. I was really impressed with the first dev kit as crappy as that is, and I honestly can't imagine how it would work out with the current prototypes.

Oculus Rift is like the ultimate zombie game everyone dreams of but never gets made, that's why its got so much hype behind it while 3D TV does not and is often thought of as a gimmick. Everyone is still waiting for "the one" zombie game but it hasn't been made yet. You know, open world survival horror that is true to survival, barricading, intense difficulty that is about living as long as possible in a zombie apocolypse, etc. The closest thing zombie fans have to "the one" game is Project Zomboid, but the fact that its 2D isometric doesn't quite go all the way. State of Decay gets close, but its too buggy and too unpolished and unrefined in certain areas to forever scratch that itch.

People have been wanting "presence" and "full immersion" in games for years. 3D kind of half steps its way here, and its cool, but "lol wow I paid $600 extra to make to make a pop-out-book style TV?" cool. Buying giant monitors is nice cause it takes up the entire FoV. The reason why the OR is exciting, is because it appears to actually fill this need and desire fully that people have been wanting for years - true presence. It combines 3D TV with a giant monitor that wraps your FoV with additonal things just as perfect motion tracking to make you really feel like you are there.

The only reason why the hype is still there for this thing is that apparently it works so well from developer kits sent to homes, demo units at conferences, and prototypes that major industry leaders have gotten on board including Valve and John Carmack (and now facebook), to the point that even Valve is convinced that this will be the next major gaming innovation since the creation of the 3D polygon. Pretty much every major player in the industry beyond these major players has their eye on it too. I'd be skeptical too if it wasn't for that and the fact that I've used one before. It works.

Still, not for everyone. I know plenty of people that just hate the idea of wearing anything on their heads. People who enjoy primiarly 2D games won't benefit from this either. I didn't find it an issue at all though - if you can wear ski goggles or sunglasses without being bothered by it, you can wear these. But back to the former point - this is why I question if this will become some kind of super mass-market technology that Facebook would be interested in. I think it could easily be a huge game-changing tech for the game industry, but beyond that? I don't really know.
 

DrOswald

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Apr 22, 2011
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Ashoten said:
I would like to see you talk in length about the legal missteps that are going to no doubt happen because of this whole fiasco Jim but ok lets talk about what you did say.

It is the same defense I see everyone putting up "Better to sell out then go bankrupt." or "Better to sell to Facebook then to EA." Well that is a classic fallacy the name of which I forget (sorry), but it is the structure of "Ether we Pick A or we Pick B." "Ether we drink poison or we strangle orphan puppies to death." Not a very goo choice is it? It is also not a solid argument. There are many options that they could have taken here not just a couple. Maybe go to steam as you mentioned Jim. Maybe go to Notch who would love to whore himself out for indie products I am sure. Maybe go to another gaming visionary Like good Ol'Pete molluenoxaue(I cant spell :D). Or heavens forbid have a second round Kickstarter to fund the project to completion.

But this whole thing underlines why the Kickstarter system is doomed to collapse in on itself. The investors who gave of their hard earned cash willingly to get something awesome at the end are now left holding a half filled cup of promises while the developers of Occulus Rift are sitting pretty with millions. Regulations need to be enforced by the community or they will be enforced by the government and no one in the gaming community or otherwise wants to see that.
Just out of curiosity, what legal missteps? Is there something I am not aware of that would make them in breach of some contract somewhere?

Also, every option you mentioned they could have taken besides facebook is ridiculous. Valve is busy doing a massive hardware launch right now, there is no chance they could front this kind of money for several years. I don't know of they ever even have had this much money on hand. And Notch is really small potatoes, he is not as rich as you think he is. Notches/Mojang's "vast" fortune is only a fraction of the development budget of a single AAA game or movie. The idea that Notch could front the cash on this scale is laughable. You are off by about 2 degrees of magnitude. The same goes for Peter Molyneux, though we know much less about his finances.

And as for another round of kickstarter? They only managed to get 2.5 million last time. 1/1000th of the cost for the buyout alone, forget whatever else Facebook is going to put into this project they obviously value quite highly. I am sure they made the best use of that money they could, but it was not very much money.

And after all that, even if any of these "options" could have fronted money on this scale, who is to say they would have wanted to? Notch liked the idea of the Rift, but would he have paid 2 billion for it? What could he possibly do with the Rift?

Last of all, KICKSTARTER IS NOT AN INVESTMENT PLATFORM. I don't get why people can't understand this. You are holding the OR team to an idea they never tried to sell you and a promise they never made. I just reviewed their kickstarter. All they said was that they had a better way to make VR tech and they needed 250,000 to get off the ground. All they promised was that if they were given this money they would make the OR and deliver developer kits to backers.

If crowd funding like kickstarter ultimately collapses it will be because people who hold developers to a standard they never intended to shoot for. Why the hell would anybody crowd fund if it means dealing with this kind of shitstorm when you inevitably fail to live up to the artificial standard you never intended to meet put in place by your "supporters"?
 

SecondPrize

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Mar 12, 2012
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The biggest problem FB will have with the Rift is getting people sold on what it's going to do for em. Are we supposed to look at two near identical screenshots side by side and think, boy I need to get me some of that double photo action in my life? The output of this thing can only be truly seen with it on your head. How they plan on instilling the desire to own one through advertising I have no fucking clue.
 

Lunar Templar

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Sorry, not feeling this as an 'issue' worthy of merit seeing as the rift was never gonna be anything more then a cute 'gimmick' anyway. I mean all it is, is mouse bound camera control on your face instead of a mouse, not exactly a replacement for mice not when the mouse does more.
 

SethAbercromby

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Apr 26, 2013
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Facebook seems to try establishing itself on the technology market next to Google, but I am not sure whether they can keep that pace up. Google has a lot of collective knowledge and experience collected under its banner and the funds to back it up. As a programmer and gamer, I will definitely get myself an OR unless Facebook does really horrible things to it, which I honestly doubt.
 

Isengrim

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Aug 20, 2012
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I agree it could have been worse, however it doesn't make me feel any less disgusted.

The letter on their website, if I read between the lines correctly, basically states "we needed more money and publicity" ( http://www.oculusvr.com/blog/oculus-joins-facebook/ ), and while I would be OK with that but when I see this line:
"Zuckerberg said he could envision people visiting virtual worlds where they can buy goods and are served advertisements." ( http://time.com/37842/facebook-oculus-rift/ ), I get just sick. What happened to "from gamers by gamers"?
Disappeared into the void?

I may be overly idealistic, but if you say and plan for it to be for gaming and then magically expand to a "social" level, sell youself for facebook ( which is a ads hub website, if you'll ask me ) and then mention ads while talking about your product, I basically am at the point of saying that you can take and shove your precious device up your sorry corporate arse because I won't touch it even if you gave it away for free.

Though I have to say, it's getting annoying saying all the stuff about oculus everywhere right it. Let it be forgotten as it's no loger worthy of mentioning.
 

sXeth

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Nov 15, 2012
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This was more or less my take on it.

There's a world of difference between an Owner and a Director/Operator. Now, Zuckerberg (or whichever flunkie) might try and get into the Director role, but that hasn't happened yet, and its unclear what purpose it would serve them to do so. Ensuring some level of Facebook utility probably, but every single device on the market prettymuch has that nowadays anyways (along with Twittering and Netflixing, etc).

In a strict standpoint of ownership, all this really does is give Oculus (potentially) more capital from the corporate moneypile, ideally to streamline their product and bring it to market (possibly a wider market via advertising and the like)

Facebook certainly seems content to sabotage their primary operations with increasing barriers to functionality and infesting it with ads, but there's no apparent reason to think they're going to jump onto this property they've bought (with what seems like a debatable level of understanding, and partially some random whimsy of Zuckerbergs) and start telling all the engineers and so on how to build a VR headset with their vast backgrounds in social media software.
 

Cerebrawl

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DrOswald said:
Also, every option you mentioned they could have taken besides facebook is ridiculous. Valve is busy doing a massive hardware launch right now, there is no chance they could front this kind of money for several years. I don't know of they ever even have had this much money on hand. And Notch is really small potatoes, he is not as rich as you think he is. Notches/Mojang's "vast" fortune is only a fraction of the development budget of a single AAA game or movie. The idea that Notch could front the cash on this scale is laughable. You are off by about 2 degrees of magnitude. The same goes for Peter Molyneux, though we know much less about his finances.
He doesn't have facebook money, but Notch does have over $311 million(equivalent. The Swedish newspaper article said 2 billion SEK), in his personal bank account. IE: Not including what he's left in Mojang.

That's more than the entire development and marketing budget for GTA V($265 million), you know, the most expensive game ever made. So I think you're cutting him a little short there. ;)

But he's still short of the facebook bid by a factor of about 6.
 

Flunk

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Feb 17, 2008
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Is Jimquisition on every day now?

Anyway, like most things it could be worse. They could have been bought out by EA *maniacal laugh*

Ok, yeah but Facebook isn't going to get anything worthwhile out of this. I figured Microsoft would buy Oculus, oh well.