Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Stalydan said:
But Bayonetta was designed by a woman as her own personal power fantasy. Someone who's sexual because she wants to be, not because there's a man she wants to bang.
No, Bayonetta was commissioned by the designer of the game (a man), who had input throughout the creation process. Hideki Kamiya is the only one of which I'm aware of saying she was his ideal woman. He had insisted on several design points..
I remember reading a funny story about Hideki Kamiya not long after the first Bayonetta came out. When word filtered up to him that erotic doujin content was being produced, he flipped his shit when he found out that Bayonetta was the submissive partner. As far as he was concerned, Bayonetta would always be the one in charge in such a situation.

The story could be apocryphal, but I think it's funny.
 

Ikaruga33

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I have an issue with the first part.
Why can't I say, "I don't agree with people who send death threats to Anitas house, but I disagree with her arguments against Hitman" It's just a way of making sure people don't get the wrong idea, that I'm some sort of sociopath because I disagreed with her.

Also, whether or not a characters sexuality is designed for the males gaze, doesn't determine whether or not it's sexist. If I want to make a game about a titty ninjas, it doesn't mean I hate women, it just means that I like tits in my video games. What I do in my own free time isn't the business of feminism.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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So, gamers collectively decide what standards games of different genres should be held to, then the reviewers should be forced to adhere to these standards when writing reviews? Why not just have the gamers review the games at that point?

Find me 10 nerds that can agree on what a specific game should be graded on. I'll wait.

The rest of that is both a misunderstanding of what feminism is and some rather impressive wargable fleeing from sanity. And some whining that one person giving a game an arbitrary 7.5 instead of an arbitrary 9.5 is "unfair" when, and I can't believe I'm saying this again, REVIEWS ARE SUBJECTIVE! If you don't like a reviewer, don't read them, and they will go away in time if enough people don't like them. See? Easy.

And the pink shoes in Football for Breast Cancer Awareness is a complete non-sequitur. It's like complaining that the hardware store sells pink handled hammers.
 

drednoahl

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Seneschal said:
Renegade-pizza said:
Never played Bayonetta, PC master race and all that,but I agree that developers should be allowed to create a character like that. Its simple artistic freedom.
Huh?! The artists' freedom isn't being contested at all. There has been no demand for the artists to be reprimanded, censored or, god forbid, fired.

On the other hand, the freedom of a critic to say "I'm uncomfortable with this particular artistic choice; I find it tacky, cheap and exploitative, diminishing my overall enjoyment of the game," without his publication being accosted by mobs trying to cut off their funding, is being contested.
My interpretation is that many journalists haven't been content with that kind of critique though. They are saying I should feel ashamed, that I'm a monster, a terrorist, and a misogynist because I'm a man who likes playing games like Bayonetta. I'm not allowed to have a differing opinion, I'm not allowed to think, I MUST agree with the critic because they know better than I do.

Meanwhile we have many gaming journalists fawning to publishers in the hope they get offered a PR job so they have a chance of keeping the gaming media in the pockets of the industry and have an easy ride - it's a publishers wet dream. Over the last decade PR has been influencing game design more and more which has pissed off gamers and developers alike (at least the ones I know.) Hype has become more important than quality and so many games have largely been mediocre while getting reviews that don't match what gamers think either. As a gamer I'm on the side of the developer who wants to make the gamers I want to buy, I'm on the side of the critic/journalist who isn't the tool of a PR rep and who doesn't paint me as a subhuman. I though this was all obvious.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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...erm, most critics gave Bayonetta 2 rave reviews. If you're reading...
drednoahl said:
They are saying I should feel ashamed, that I'm a monster, a terrorist, and a misogynist because I'm a man who likes playing games like Bayonetta. I'm not allowed to have a differing opinion, I'm not allowed to think, I MUST agree with the critic because they know better than I do.
...into it, you might want to take a step back. Ask yourself, for example, did anyone actually say that? For realzies. I mean, I think about hypotheticals all the time, but I try to make sure I'm reacting to things actually said, not the scary voices in my head telling me what all of those people are "actually thinking."
 

Kingjackl

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Grampy_bone said:
It shows disrespect because he was judging the game by his own tastes, not his audience's.
I can't help but feel like you're missing the point of criticism. Of course a reviewer judges a game based on their own tastes, that's their job. If their views don't line up with the audience, then that audience needs to go somewhere else.

You're free to disagree, and to challenge them on certain points of contention, but don't expect meaningless arguments such as "you're not representing your audience" to sway them.
 

TheUnbeholden

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Jimothy Sterling said:
When your on facebook, twitter of message board "Death threats against [female developer name] cannot be condoned, however
How about not publicly reporting on death threats period? Seeing as reporting on it is counter intuitive to actually stopping it.
I think that would be much more accurate and relevant than talking to a minority of twats, which is what I keep thinking whenever you mention the supposed "opposition" to feminists, either directly or indirectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgHmTmUjFF0
 

grassgremlin

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Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
Sexism in Gaming =/= Actual Porn.
I need to point this out. That isn't argument.

I draw porn constantly and can still criticize games for sexist shit.
It's about leaving your porn at the door when you create a product as much as you can.

Bayonetta isn't porn. It's a product sold to the masses.
I may not agree that she's sexist, but that reviewer is well in there right to criticize it for sexist tropes.
 

grassgremlin

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Silentpony said:
Rellik San said:
Silentpony said:
Quite right but I do disagree with you. Bayonetta is a sexy character most likely written by a man, but that doesn't cheapen her representation, she is displayed and written as a strong woman, enjoying herself and her life as much possible and using her power to achieve her goals in a way she finds appealing. She is, as much as I hate these terms "Sex Positive" (I don't hate what it means, I just hate that they call it "sex positive" because when done right, sex is always positive).

And whilst yes, her personality and actions are restricted by the writer/player relationship, the way it's presented is key, one could argue that her sexuality is overt and over the top it transcends "sexy" into camp absurdism, Bayonetta is to video games, what the sexually charged and motivated Rocky Horror Picture Show is to movies, the sexiness, sexualisation and erotically charged characters of both, were indeed written by men. But given the lack of Janet Weiss' agency in the story, other than engaging in sexually dramatic moments and later being literally brainwashed with sex and sexuality, wouldn't that be just as troubling a story? Assuming of course you read it that way.

Art is always about interpretation beyond the surface and both views are just as viable. :)

So come at me with your well reasoned opinion bro/sis. Let's discuss this further. :D
I guess I would ask, and forgive me if this details the conversation, but why are the writers Bayonetta given such a pass? I mean Bayonettas sexuality, her sucking and humping of things, theyre almost irrelevant to my larger thought really. It's not WHAT she does, it's why no one looks at the men behind the curtain.
For example, when Mass Effect 3s ending pissed everyone off, the rage was directed at the writers. How could they write this?! No one stepped up and said the Reapers have agency and Shepard made his/her choice so deal with it.
When Lara Croft was almost raped, everyone was disgusted someone wrote that in a game. No one just shrugged and said the bad guy was just confident in his sexuality. He has agency and choose this life.
When the new assassin creed demo had no women, everyone called it terrible and non inclusive. No one said well it was the women's choice to not be assassins. They decided to not be in the demo and we should respect that choice.
Dead or Alive extreme beach volleyball? Absolutely terrible! sexist! Disgusting. No one steps forward and says it's their choice to dress up in skimpy bikinis and bounce around in slowmo. No one respects Helena or Kasumi for their confidence in their bodies. Nope, they're sex doll.
But Bayonetta strips naked and grinds her enemies to death with her crotch? GOSH! what strong female characterization. How respectable. How progressive and confident she is!
No one bats an eye that writers made her this way. No one asks why she strips, it's just part of who she is, forgetting who she is isn't up to her.
I would go so far to say Dead or Alive Volleyball is a progressive game compared to Bayonetta. Yes DoA is trash, but it's not trying to hide it's naughty bits behind artsy filters or smoke monsters DoA isn't trying to pretend it's here for anything but cheese shots and doesn't throw in boss fights as part of a needless delaying tactic between strip shows. It's honest that this is fap material, pure and simple. where as Bayonetta has to pretend it's erotica, i guess so as not to piss off family friendly Nintendo or the moms who bought Wiis for their toddlers.
Bayonetta's creator is female.
http://www.destructoid.com/platinum-only-a-woman-could-design-bayonetta-148258.phtml

There's an interview of her talking about the character on youtube.
Actually the reason why Hideki Kamiya is such a asshole is because people keep asking him a question about Bayonetta when he wasn't responsible for the game's creative decisions only responsible for directing the game.

In fact he didn't even work on Bayonetta 2.

Edit: He's only credited because he was part of the creation of the first game.
 

c3p

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The first segment: Thank You!

Gamergate has so much similarity to discussions with racists "I'm no racist, but [racist stuff]". If you feel like you have to put a disclaimer in front of the stuff you want to say, you probably shouldn't say it. Or stand to your opinion without distancing yourself from it immediately beforehand.
 

grassgremlin

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Gonna add. Bayonetta's conception is by a woman.
Hideki Kamiya was a director and writer of the first game only.
Here's some info on Bayonetta's creator Mari Shimazaki

This is for clarification.
http://www.destructoid.com/platinum-only-a-woman-could-design-bayonetta-148258.phtml
http://platinumgames.com/2014/06/27/character-design-pt-1-bayonetta-and-jeanne/
http://platinumgames.com/2014/10/17/character-design-pt-3-new-characters-extras/
http://platinumgames.com/2014/09/19/character-design-pt-2-luka-rodin-and-enzo/

Sorry, I can't find her interview. I've seen gifs, having trouble finding.
There is a interview where she says that Bayonetta is wish fullfillment for her.

You milleage may vary on Kamiya's involvement, but i'll do more research in the development.
Kamiya states to never ask him questions on Bayonetta 2 as he says he didn't work on it.
On wikipedia he's credited as a writer and developer, but likely it's a holder over to his previous work being used.

Bingo Morihashi is listed as writer.
Other People involved include

Producers:
Atsushi Inaba
Hitoshi Yamagami

and Programmers
Minota Kenshin

Edit: I MIGHT BE WRONG! THAT IS OKAY! PLEASE DON'T RIP OFF MY HEAD AND DRINK THE BLOOD FROM THE STUMP >=o
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Sigh, I should've know it was going to be Thunderfoot. It's always Thunderfoot. It's the Rickroll of GamerGate, I swear. About as useful for discussion too.

I'd be shocked if that video came within the same timecode as a "point." Let me guess:

"The police didn't think the threat would be carried out because, like the earlier threats, it was made by a dickless wonder tittering away behind a keyboard.

Somehow, this "proves" that the threat was entirely made up, probably by Sarkeesian herself. No, don't ask for concrete evidence, because that's harassment, #notyourshield."
 

Seneschal

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drednoahl said:
Seneschal said:
Renegade-pizza said:
Never played Bayonetta, PC master race and all that,but I agree that developers should be allowed to create a character like that. Its simple artistic freedom.
Huh?! The artists' freedom isn't being contested at all. There has been no demand for the artists to be reprimanded, censored or, god forbid, fired.

On the other hand, the freedom of a critic to say "I'm uncomfortable with this particular artistic choice; I find it tacky, cheap and exploitative, diminishing my overall enjoyment of the game," without his publication being accosted by mobs trying to cut off their funding, is being contested.
My interpretation is that many journalists haven't been content with that kind of critique though. They are saying I should feel ashamed, that I'm a monster, a terrorist, and a misogynist because I'm a man who likes playing games like Bayonetta. I'm not allowed to have a differing opinion, I'm not allowed to think, I MUST agree with the critic because they know better than I do.

Meanwhile we have many gaming journalists fawning to publishers in the hope they get offered a PR job so they have a chance of keeping the gaming media in the pockets of the industry and have an easy ride - it's a publishers wet dream. Over the last decade PR has been influencing game design more and more which has pissed off gamers and developers alike (at least the ones I know.) Hype has become more important than quality and so many games have largely been mediocre while getting reviews that don't match what gamers think either. As a gamer I'm on the side of the developer who wants to make the gamers I want to buy, I'm on the side of the critic/journalist who isn't the tool of a PR rep and who doesn't paint me as a subhuman. I though this was all obvious.
Choosing to interpret that The Critic Cabal are bearing down on you, emasculators in hands, when the exact opposite has happened with Bayonetta 2 reviews, takes some impressive mental gymnastics.

Arthur Gies was in the tiny minority when he argued that Bayonetta's crotch-massaging camera did a disservice to the game - a valid beef even if you do enjoy ogling female bodies, as it's not hard to imagine that such a thing may become grating if senselessly repeated. Most every other reviewer, on the other hand, held that the sexualization added to the game's style.

So, it's a minority opinion that perhaps being stuffed with seventy cheesecakes isn't for everyone - and it isn't even directed at you, but at those that aren't lovers of cheesecake in the first place. You have no grounds to feel besieged and threatened by that. A while ago, there would be no one speaking for the non-cheesecake enthusiasts, and you'd have me believe that we were better off then?
 

grassgremlin

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Silentpony said:
Stalydan said:
Silentpony said:
But Bayonetta was designed by a woman as her own personal power fantasy. Someone who's sexual because she wants to be, not because there's a man she wants to bang.
But does SHE want to be? I guess this gets into a very technical debate, one probably unnecessary as its just a video game, but Bayonetta doesn't WANT anything. She's a character. A fiction. Someone who is being written by someone else. So Bayonetta doesn't want to strip, her writers want Bayonetta to want to strip. And I guess that's my sticking point. We seem to accept casually that what Bayonetta does is okay because someone wrote that Bayonetta is okay with it. She herself was never asked, and her actions are driven by a) the writers and b) the player. But that's seen as okay because someone wrote a line of dialogue, gave it to a voice actress and then boom, instant 'not sexist' shield.
Left to her own devices, I don't think Bayonetta strips too much, as again, she's not real.
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the difference between Bayonetta and like the DoA Volleyball series. Yes, in DoA they're on a beach and that's out of character for them, again, only because someone somewhere declared it so. But what if a writer said it wasn't? If a writer came out and said Tina and Kasumi like bikinis and sun-bathing, would the game be okay? If someone wrote a stupid 30sec monologue explaining why they're on a paradise island, would it be okay then? What if we threw in random giant monsters fights? Would their pole-dancing be okay then? Is a pole dance any less absurd on monster's back than it is in an empty room?
Or would it still be the desperate refuge of the perverted?
To me, Bayonetta is the exact same. She's sexual and strips and grinds/humps/sucks/kisses/whips, etc...only because we and/or the writers arbitrarily said it was okay. We dubbed her 'not offensive' and just shield behind that. Bayonetta isn't sexist because we said 'Not to be sexist, but...' therefore debate is over.
I actually get what you're trying to say, that does open a new can of worms then.
I get it. The character is fictional, but that kind of detachment can really drive home. It's like. The movie is only entertaining because the writers make it so. Actors act because they are reading a script.

That's fine, but it loses audience connection to the piece all the same. I get people shouldn't read into fantasy, but it seems that you're framing that there is something wrong with people imagining and escaping into the thing they consume.

Would you rather the game had no story. Bayonetta did not speak unless you told her too. Ultimate control where you're driving the plot and refusing to participate. Sure those games might exist, but that sort of basically impying an anti-story kind of stance.

I get the argument. She's not real. I get when people take to much into what they enjoy, but it can also lead down a pretty bland path. This isn't real therefore I shouldn't enjoy it. I'm not actually doing the things here.

. . . or you could make the argument. I hate when game developers force me to do things in there games. I agree with you 100%, I kind of hate that too, but I don't think every game should be designed entirely to cater to every single player wish for that sort of thing.

So with that in mind. I still agree. In your logic, I agree Bayonetta is sexist and has no agency, but it does leave a certain sour, well, that means its bland cause I can't do what I want feel.
 

Rellik San

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Darth_Payn said:
Rellik San said:
Darth_Payn said:
OK, that "sex is always positive" line got a full belly laugh from me! What you said about sexuality being exaggerated brings to mind what Yahtzee said about that: "Just because its portrayal is "ironic" doesn't mean somebody isn't getting off to it."
I'd ask you quote me in context please: "Because when done right, sex is always positive" see the removal of the "WHEN DONE RIGHT" changes the context in incredible ways and ways that infer a lot of potential unpleasantness... so please, don't misquote me again.

Now to address your main point: Absolutely, just because something is "ironic" doesn't mean someone isn't jacking off to it, but why is that a bad thing? People are turned on by all manner of things, from girls in jeans and sweaters to men in jock straps lifting weights, the means of how someone is turned on are so varied and wild, who are we to judge what others find sexually alluring or don't?
Right, right sorry if I messed up what you said earlier. I just thought saying half that line was enough to bring it back to mind. I first read "When sex is done right, it's always positive" in a deep baritone like Billy Dee Williams, with a smooth jazz soundtrack.
Ahhh sorry for going a little aggressive there, I misread your tone entirely.

But yeah, in issues like this so many whispers can easily spread from misquoting something like that, I know it's not intentional and seems like a small thing, but small things can make big ripples in these issues. :)

As I said man/woman "When done right, sex is always positive" is a lot groovier a statement we can all get behind more so than just "sex is positive"... which would then devolve in peoples minds to "all sex is positive" which then becomes "even abusive sex is positive"... sounds like a leap I know, but I've seen it happen sadly. :(

But yeah, glad I made you smile with my initial comment anyway. :)
 

Kuro Serpentina

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grassgremlin said:
Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
Sexism in Gaming =/= Actual Porn.
I need to point this out. That isn't argument.

I draw porn constantly and can still criticize games for sexist shit.
It's about leaving your porn at the door when you create a product as much as you can.

Bayonetta isn't porn. It's a product sold to the masses.
I may not agree that she's sexist, but that reviewer is well in there right to criticize it for sexist tropes.
I get the feeling you need to read through some of the other comments in here, cause I thing you'll find them more useful for the argument
 

szaleniec1000

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major_chaos said:
I support the Polygon review's right to exist even if I find it 100% worthless, but the issue is the stupid obscene power of metacritic making that stupid arbitrary number effect everything from a game's success to how much the devs actually get paid. Get rid of Metacrtic (or at least render it irrelevant) and Kotaku and Polygon can give games with fanservice a "0/10, literaly hitler" for all I care.
It's not Metacritic's fault if a publisher uses it as an excuse to screw over a developer, and it certainly isn't the fault of any individual reviewer whose score gets thrown into the aggregator. A publisher being a dick is the responsibility of nobody but the publisher. Get rid of Metacritic, and they'll just find another excuse.
 

Wisq

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Kingjackl said:
Grampy_bone said:
It shows disrespect because he was judging the game by his own tastes, not his audience's.
I can't help but feel like you're missing the point of criticism. Of course a reviewer judges a game based on their own tastes, that's their job. If their views don't line up with the audience, then that audience needs to go somewhere else.

You're free to disagree, and to challenge them on certain points of contention, but don't expect meaningless arguments such as "you're not representing your audience" to sway them.
Yeah, especially because I'm betting a lot of people who are complaining about the Polygon review wouldn't have read it if they hadn't been drawn to the controversy.

No, I'm not accusing Polygon of clickbaiting. I'm just saying that if you only show up to an article to complain that they're not judging the game by your ("the audience's") tastes, well, you're not really their usual audience, are you?
 

VectorSlip

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I just have a quick question. I've seen a lot of arguments for subjectivity vs objectivity in reviews ITT and I wanted to ask something. If a reviewers piece is just 100% subjective and opinion then where does its value lie? Im not asking this to disparage any reviews in particular, I'm just genuinely curious.

If its just another person's opinion about a game then whats the point? Even if their opinion lined up with my own i'd still find it hard to see any use the review would have since im not that reviewer and my experience would be different from theirs since we are different people. I don't really use or care for reviews in the first place so Im having trouble wrapping my mind around this whole thing and would like a little help to understand it all.
 

ThreeKneeNick

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edit: actually, I don't wnna get into this.

But I wonder if "stupid sexy Flanders" is the inspiration for the title.