Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

Kuro Serpentina

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While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
 

BBboy20

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Andy Shandy said:
Might tide myself over by picked up Legend Of Korra too. I'm not quite sure what we've done to deserve two Platinum games in one week, but I love it.
*Umbra Fist Bump.gif*

Wait, Operation Bayonetta 2 was a thing? o_O
 

VoidOfOne

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Paradox SuXcess said:
VoidOfOne said:
And also, I stop listening to others when they first denounce harassment and death threats, and then throw in a "however." Makes the point void, and reduces the person's credibility.
It's similar to those who say, "I'm not racist but...". No no, just stop there. It doesn't excuse you from being racist so just stop. I ignore them best I can.
I very much agree. There's always that twinge in me that wants me to read on just to see how deep a hole that person has dug themselves into. But, seriously, to make such a statement shows a severe lack of empathy, and that the person making it doesn't feel that he or she is in the wrong, or rather that the point they have to make has much more merit than the first point.

Another statement to add to that would be "With all due respect..." which is followed by saying something rather disrespectful, most of the time. Then again, perhaps the subject intended is due little or no respect.

In any case, I like Bayonetta's new look.
 

Rellik San

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Muspelheim said:
I feel that the root problem is that people have attached far too much of their identity and feeling of self-worth into certain games, or gaming as a whole.
I get what you're saying here, that attaching a defining opinion to yourself as one thing only serves to cheapen the human interactive experience. BUT as someone who's primary hobbies and interests (Computer games, Warhammer, DnD, board games etc) are all games related, I would say safely when asked about my hobbies "I'm a gamer mostly" is an excellent short hand for describing that without making myself sound like some kind of salesman pitching myself and my interests to other people, from that the conversation can drift to "cool, what kinda games do you like?" or to "Cool, what else do you do?" depending on the persons level of interest.

And as someone who does these things and they feel good, yeah I put a lot of my self worth into it (mainly into warhammer) because "Bro that model looks awesome" is an awesome and affirming thing to hear. :)
 

kuolonen

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"Yes even feminist disagree with each other, and no, they don't threaten to come each others house to do murder" -Jim Sterling

Truer words have never been spoken Jim! No matter what those nasty people whose genitalia dangles on the outside may say, no Feminist has ever made death threats to another, for su... hang on, I am getting a call here. Hello? Ah it's Erin Prizzey, and she would like to have a word with you Jimmy, old mate: http://youtu.be/wAgYsvykEb8?t=3m50s
You can get your own conclusions there, I won't say anything more on the matter on account of fearing for my life.

OT: Interesting take on the sexualization. Though I feel saying that "she wears it because she wants to wear it" can be applied to almost any fanservice-character.
 

VoidOfOne

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Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
It's one thing to question the reviewer, quite another to tell Nintendo to change its business practices with a gaming website due to the review. Call foul if you want, but you change the whole argument when you call for Nintendo to "cut Polygon out of Nintendo Press Material." It's no longer about simply disagreeing with the review or reviewer (which is everyone's right to do), but now the call is to hinder Polygon for simply doing what they have been allowed to do. And the latter helps no one except for the egos of the people who took "offense" to the points made in the review they disagreed with.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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I agree...but doesn't tie back in to other things you've talked about Jim? About whose fault controversies are?
Bayonetta dresses as her character choose. Great. Except bullshit. Bayonetta is not a person. She is not real. Someone, most likely a man, WROTE her. They wrote 'Bayonetta kills bosses by ripping her clothes off and sucking on lolipops' ...and that's just cool, because...why? Bayonetta has no agency, not identity beyond that of a sexualized woman. We don't see Bayonetta renting movies and having a relaxing night at home with some popcorn. We don't see Bayonetta filing up her car with gas, or doing her taxes or washing her clothes. We only see her as a sex object, something to be oogled and fapped to because that's all she is. That is how she, as a nonperson, was written.

Put it thing way: If Bayonetta was written in the 90s, or was a comic book character, would anyone attempt to defend her? Somehow, I doubt it.
 

DirgeNovak

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Jul 23, 2008
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I refuse to buy Bayonetta 2 until they change the title for Kathleen de Vere: The Video Game.


In all seriousness, though: Yeah, pretty much. I like Bayonetta as a character, just like I appreciated what Lollipop Chainsaw had to say about objectification, but I also understand why some can't stand them.

I really want a WiiU, so I can play an actually good version of the original (PS3 version is so fuckawful I couldn't play past level four, but I really like the idea) and 2. Please, deities of employment, hear my prayers.
 

Guffe

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Andy Shandy said:
Yeah, I loved the original Bayonetta and, judging from the reviews I've read at least, will probably love Bayonetta 2. But that "Operation Bayonetta 2" thing was laughably pathetic.

Can't wait for Friday though! :D

Might tide myself over by picked up Legend Of Korra too. I'm not quite sure what we've done to deserve two Platinum games in one week, but I love it.
You gonna like Bayo2???
= You have a WiiU!
= You need to join user group WiiU Online Multiplayer so we can play it together :D

On Topic:
Nice episode.
Haven't played the first Bayo so I pre-ordered the one were I get the first one also, so I get 2 games on friday and all these videos of the game get me very excited :)
 

Rellik San

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Silentpony said:
I agree...but doesn't tie back in to other things you've talked about Jim? About whose fault controversies are?
Bayonetta dresses are her characters choose. Great. Except bullshit. Bayonetta is not a person. She is not real. Someone, most likely a man, WROTE her. They wrote 'Bayonetta kills bosses by ripping her clothes off and sucking on lolipops' ...and that's just cool, because...why? Bayonetta has no agency, not identity beyond that of a sexualized woman. We don't see Bayonetta renting movies and having a relaxing night at home with some popcorn. We don't see Bayonetta filing up her car with gas, or doing her taxes or washing her clothes. We only see her as a sex object, something to be oogled and fapped to because that's all she is. That is how she, as a nonperson, was written.
Quite right but I do disagree with you. Bayonetta is a sexy character most likely written by a man, but that doesn't cheapen her representation, she is displayed and written as a strong woman, enjoying herself and her life as much possible and using her power to achieve her goals in a way she finds appealing. She is, as much as I hate these terms "Sex Positive" (I don't hate what it means, I just hate that they call it "sex positive" because when done right, sex is always positive).

And whilst yes, her personality and actions are restricted by the writer/player relationship, the way it's presented is key, one could argue that her sexuality is overt and over the top it transcends "sexy" into camp absurdism, Bayonetta is to video games, what the sexually charged and motivated Rocky Horror Picture Show is to movies, the sexiness, sexualisation and erotically charged characters of both, were indeed written by men. But given the lack of Janet Weiss' agency in the story, other than engaging in sexually dramatic moments and later being literally brainwashed with sex and sexuality, wouldn't that be just as troubling a story? Assuming of course you read it that way.

Art is always about interpretation beyond the surface and both views are just as viable. :)

So come at me with your well reasoned opinion bro/sis. Let's discuss this further. :D
 

Uriel_Hayabusa

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I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

Feminist Frequency producer Jonathan McIntosh says it pretty well, I think:

https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521798927163482112
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522065989890879488
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522101671447388160

So yeah, when the - shall we say - ''intensely devoted'' Bayonetta fans come out of the woodwork to defend her honor and agency I basically react like this:

Fictional Characters[/youtube]

That being said, I didn't particularly like the first Bayonetta (nor do I care for PlatinumGames' output in general) and am apathetic towards Bayonetta as a character, so take it as you will.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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kuolonen said:
"Yes even feminist disagree with each other, and no, they don't threaten to come each others house to do murder" -Jim Sterling

Truer words have never been spoken Jim! No matter what those nasty people whose genitalia dangles on the outside may say, no Feminist has ever made death threats to another, for su... hang on, I am getting a call here. Hello? Ah it's Erin Prizzey, and she would like to have a word with you Jimmy, old mate
Erin Prizzey claimed her dog was killed by feminists. And later claimed her dog was attacked by feminists, but survived.

Erin Prizzey lied and she shouldn't be trusted.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn she doesn't even have a dog.
 

VanQ

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Oct 23, 2009
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"I think Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Gets across that it's opinion, won't cause any issue from me.
"Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Immediately earns my ire, expressing opinion as fact.

Also, the first 50 seconds of that video was the most condescending assery I've experienced in a long time. People were dicks to you on twitter, that's awful. Don't take it out on your audience.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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MarsAtlas said:
Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Have you ever considered that some people find it uncomfortable when people try tp inject sex into a beat-em-up videogame?
Absolutely. I review movies and TV shows and I've said a few times, "Never try to out-porn porn." Whenever you inject porn where it doesn't below, like a video game, you tend to get a shitty video game and weak porn.
 

Thanatos2k

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There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
 

The Feast

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Rellik San said:
Muspelheim said:
I feel that the root problem is that people have attached far too much of their identity and feeling of self-worth into certain games, or gaming as a whole.
I get what you're saying here, that attaching a defining opinion to yourself as one thing only serves to cheapen the human interactive experience. BUT as someone who's primary hobbies and interests (Computer games, Warhammer, DnD, board games etc) are all games related, I would say safely when asked about my hobbies "I'm a gamer mostly" is an excellent short hand for describing that without making myself sound like some kind of salesman pitching myself and my interests to other people, from that the conversation can drift to "cool, what kinda games do you like?" or to "Cool, what else do you do?" depending on the persons level of interest.

And as someone who does these things and they feel good, yeah I put a lot of my self worth into it (mainly into warhammer) because "Bro that model looks awesome" is an awesome and affirming thing to hear. :)
But I also like to add something to the first quote which is hoping that people with the same hobby, that is GAMING as whole, isn't an idiot who will put negativity in everything in his or her life. In this case, making internet controversy that holds a very small reason to care but with enough influence, can cause a massive influx to the whole gaming society until it become a thing.

It maybe funny to read people's unrelenting reaction before, but now it's getting really old and getting tiresome on how people turned a hobby into something so baffling. Things like female developer quitting her job shouldn't be a thing if people aren't such an a-holes all the time. Can't we just enjoy gaming as it is? Because the only answer we often see is simply "No".
 

Rellik San

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Uriel_Hayabusa said:
I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.
Because like all fictional characters, it's the way she's presented and portrayed as sexy without specifically being sexually active, she is never presented as doing it for the approval of a male character, she is never presented as trying to win the affections of anyone and most of all she's presented as having fun doing so. Comparatively females in media are usually only presented as being sexy for their object of affections desires (see almost any Molly Ringwald film of the 80's). There is a difference between the too, a character written as having sexual agency is a wholly differing beast to a character presented without it.

If you would care for another example: Angua from the Discworld series, just replace "sexuality" with "Werewolf" and you basically have the same result (only with a lot less absurdism and hyperactivity and a more realised human approach).
 

Thaluikhain

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VoidOfOne said:
Another statement to add to that would be "With all due respect..." which is followed by saying something rather disrespectful, most of the time. Then again, perhaps the subject intended is due little or no respect.
Eh, there are legitimate reasons to say "With all due respect", though. "You're more important than me, but I think you are wrong", for example.