Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

Entitled

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Silentpony said:
Bayonetta dresses are her characters choose. Great. Except bullshit. Bayonetta is not a person. She is not real. Someone, most likely a man, WROTE her. They wrote 'Bayonetta kills bosses by ripping her clothes off and sucking on lolipops' ...and that's just cool, because...why?
This, basically.

I guess Bayonetta being written as strong and independent is still better than the alternative of being explicitly written as a reluctant victim of sexualization. But in the present atmosphere of gender portrayals, it's not exactly someting revolutionary or praiseworthy either, It's just the result of someone remembering not to be TOO creepy and at least writing a character who happens to be all right with being sexualized.

I remember reasing these old Jules Verne novels, where one of the characters was the protagonist's freed slave, who kept tagging along with him out of devotion. I'm pretty sure that Verne thought he was being super-progressive for having freed black characters, but in retrospect, they were pretty crude archetypes that were written in a way that their agency-dilled life choice just happened to involve serving a Great White Dude as a slave in all but name.
 

VoidOfOne

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Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
Very interesting, and a cause for concern that should be addressed.

What site is this happening on? I haven't noticed myself.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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Good video. Bayonetta has always been an interesting character for me, (even though I haven't played the games yet) because of how she's so over the top. So much so that really, it feels like she's mocking the kinds of people who wanna use her for fapping material. It's like she's going "Oh, you think this is hot, do you? Well, guess what, you wouldn't stand a chance with me, kiddo. I'll make you insecure that you wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance with any woman as badass as me."

In any case, I'm here mostly for the comments that totally miss the point.

Coreless said:
Love the progressive mentality when it comes to twisting narratives, now you aren't even aloud to speak your mind anymore because now you have to frame any conversation in a way they demand or they won't even listen to you lol. So much for freedom of speech and due process because if they can cut you off before you speak or are even get a chance to defend yourself then they win by default.
Eh? Didn't Jim actually say discussion of Bayonetta was GOOD and we should be having it? Or did you watch a totally different video than me?

Or are you referring to that he said at the beginning of the video?

If so, in WHAT scenario is it appropriate to say "I wholeheartedly condemn death threats against group X, However 'Argument'"? I mean, aside from "I wholeheartedly condemn death threats, however if you're a fascist dictator committing genocide and having kids send to the firing squad for your amusement, you really have to expect that kind of thing because you are an irredeemable monster"?

Seriously. In WHAT situation is it appropriate and productive to threaten to kill someone who isn't outright threatening to literally kill YOU?

There's a difference between the "must speak in exactly progressive tone and not have contrary opinion or be considered idiot beep boop" thing you're suggesting and the "Yeah, I'll use common sense and not be a massive douche" reality of arguments. Appending a "however" argument to just about any instance of "I condemn death threats" is a violation of the second one, not the first.

Captcha: "Have an Inkling" Yes, you really should.
 

Don Incognito

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Coreless said:
Love the progressive mentality when it comes to twisting narratives, now you aren't even aloud to speak your mind anymore because now you have to frame any conversation in a way they demand or they won't even listen to you lol. So much for freedom of speech and due process because if they can cut you off before you speak or are even get a chance to defend yourself then they win by default.

That's not what "freedom of speech" or "due process" mean, but far be it from me to "censor" your narrative.
 

veloper

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Safe. Boring.

Jim has learned the important value of freedom of speech, but then he only uses it to promote the safe and neutral position. I much prefer the more controversial Jimquisition vids.
 

JarinArenos

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Thank fucking god for you, Jim. This video should be required viewing for participation in any online discussion anywhere.
VanQ said:
Also, the first 50 seconds of that video was the most condescending assery I've experienced in a long time. People were dicks to you on twitter, that's awful. Don't take it out on your audience.
If that statement pissed you off that much... I think a bit more introspection might be in order on exactly why you found that offensive...
 

Don Incognito

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Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
And this is why you need to support your claim with evidence.

Kindly demonstrate where someone said "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."
 

BoredRolePlayer

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Cliff Notes:people have different opinions, stop being chodes to each other over said opinions.

Edit to expand on my thoughts of this:
This concept is a given, why do you need a video to make a "rally cry" around this? You could honestly say this about any discussion about anything where people don't agree on a subject. I don't agree with Yahtzee about Hyrule Warriors after finally playing it and think he went on a more Nintendo is just on a holding pattern (Yep let's ignore the HD remake of a old game and call the "new" style of game for the franchise a holding pattern), but I won't scream and rant and rave about it. Have a discussion yes, but I'm not going to shoot down his opinion over the game and say he is wrong. This video just seems like another person saying "Hey be nice on the internet".
 

danielcofour

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And sanctimonious condescending nonsense at the beginning. Okay. You wanna know why people call you an SJW Jim? Well, the first 40 seconds of your video is the answer. Just to clear that up, since I've been seeing in your tweets that you're a bit confused on the matter.(btw, how do you like my condescension. Feels good dun'it?)

Wanna know why people have to denounce harassment as an opening statement? Because nowadays there is a narrative driven that anyone who's pro GG or who disagrees with, let's say Anita, is supporting harassment. It is used to explain to self-righteous holier than thou individuals, that you can disagree with someone and not be bigoted towards their particular characteristics. See, complex thoughts and all that.
 

Evonisia

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Jun 24, 2013
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Bayonetta's unbelievable camp nature is such a joy, but it seems that sexualisation is always bad regardless of the character's presentation in the story (sigh).

Guffe said:
OMG Bayonetta is the best game ever. Woo! Woo! Though I'm not sure if the Wii U pad is better for it than the 360 pad, maybe I just need to play the demo for B2 six more times.
 

Goliath100

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Uriel_Hayabusa said:
I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.
The point Sterling is trying to make is that: If it makes sense for a character to act/dress sexual in universe, it's ok. Same goes for "male gaze" shots too. If the camera is trying to communicate the in universe attraction of one character to another, it's ok.
Any questions?
 

Cronenberg1

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Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
Reviews aren't journalism, they are the reviewers personal opinions. 100% objective criticism is boring and impossible. If a reviewer has a problem with the depiction of a character in a piece of media then they should be able to include it in the review without fear of ridicule.
 

klaynexas3

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Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
I don't see how it's that far off or even hypocritical. Now, I haven't read the review myself, but there's a context for everything, and so while the reviewer might enjoy watching porn, that doesn't mean he feels comfortable with it being outside of the context of which he establishes when viewing said porn. As an example, I like both peanut butter and ketchup, but not together. So it's hardly a stretch for a reviewer to say "hey, I like porn and video games, but I'm not a fan of them together." It's not hypocritical, it's simply thinking two things don't mix well, like water and oil.
 

danielcofour

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Don Incognito said:
Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
And this is why you need to support your claim with evidence.

Kindly demonstrate where someone said "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."
Ahm, off the top of my head, that Macintosh fella, the producer of Feminist Frequency. The first part at least, not the reviewing part. But it is also kind of clear at this point that when someone denounces something as sexist or racist or any isms, that bars no dissent. If you disagree, then you are a sexist/racist/-isist.
 

Don Incognito

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danielcofour said:
Don Incognito said:
Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
And this is why you need to support your claim with evidence.

Kindly demonstrate where someone said "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."
Ahm, off the top of my head, that Macintosh fella, the producer of Feminist Frequency. The first part at least, not the reviewing part. But it is also kind of clear at this point that when someone denounces something as sexist or racist or any isms, that bars no dissent. If you disagree, then you are a sexist/racist/-isist.
So, that's a NO, then.

Moreover, please provide citation for your claim regarding dissent.

If we're going to have an open and honest discussion about these topics, we need to avoid hyperbole and demonization of those on the other side.
 

Spushkin

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Thanatos2k said:
There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.
If I find a reviewer obnoxious, I just don't use his reviews as source of information when picking my games. There must be a gazillion different voices out there when it comes to game reviews.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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danielcofour said:
And sanctimonious condescending nonsense at the beginning. Okay. You wanna know why people call you an SJW Jim? Well, the first 40 seconds of your video is the answer. Just to clear that up, since I've been seeing in your tweets that you're a bit confused on the matter.(btw, how do you like my condescension. Feels good dun'it?)

Wanna know why people have to denounce harassment as an opening statement? Because nowadays there is a narrative driven that anyone who's pro GG or who disagrees with, let's say Anita, is supporting harassment. It is used to explain to self-righteous holier than thou individuals, that you can disagree with someone and not be bigoted towards their particular characteristics. See, complex thoughts and all that.
I think it's more the WORDING there, buddy.

Saying "First off, I disagree with death threats blah blah, yadda yadda. *line break* Now, personally I have problems with person X, because reasons Y, Z, P, and Q. But again, death threats are awful and I don't wish any on X, and anyone who does should have no part in the discussion." has a totally different from "I disagree with death threats yadda yadda HOWEVER, I have problems with Person X because...".

In the first one you condemn the harassment and then make your point in a way that's not connected to harassment, whereas the wording in the second one seems to imply justification for it.

Is it kind of arbitrary and stupid? Yes. But that's how language is, man. Different wording can make all the difference in the world.
 

ConanThe3rd

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Death Threats against Jim Stearling are deplorable and can not be condon't however, if he was comically struck with a wet fish as a result of his smart-arse attempts at being cute about Social Media sites I would look the other way.
 

DataSnake

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Uriel_Hayabusa said:
I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.
Willing suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason people[footnote]well, except Frank Miller...[/footnote] would be pissed off if the upcoming JLA movie had Batman dual-wielding machine guns and sexually harassing Wonder Woman. Sure, Batman's not real, so that's no more "out of character" than anything else he does, but it'd feel more dissonant. Fictional characters can, and usually do, have their own personalities. One test (stolen shamelessly from the Plinkett Phantom Menace reviews) goes like this:
Describe the character in as much detail as possible without mentioning their name, job, appearance or role in the story. The more you can say about them, the better.
Let's try a few characters off the top of my head (note: I haven't played Bayonetta, so I'm going off an LP I saw a few years ago on that one):
Short-tempered, loyal to his friends and lethal to his enemies. Has a decent sense of humor and is happier in a fight to the death than having a beer with a friend. Enjoys killing his enemies, has no qualms about killing bystanders, but is incredibly protective of his friends and loved ones.

Flirty, sarcastic, unabashedly sexual. She kills her enemies without hesitation, but she'd risk her life to save an innocent bystander and has a strong maternal instinct. Tries to hide the latter two, even from herself, behind a veneer of condescending humor.

Quite possibly the smartest human in history. Has extremely limited social skills. Fiercely loyal to her friends, even if her short temper does leave them afraid of her. Will hold a grudge for years, but won't let it get in the way when there's work to be done. Bisexual and into BDSM, her greatest fear is that others will think less of her because of either her gender or her sexuality, though she personally feels no shame about either.

Smart, strong, and obsessed. Hardly ever cracks a smile, never laughs. Has a backup plan for every situation he could ever get into, and would rather make more such plans than spend time with the few people he trusts enough to consider friends. Doesn't enjoy his job, but continues doing it because someone has to and he's the best qualified. No matter how many lives he saves, he never congratulates himself on a job well done, instead blaming himself for the few he couldn't protect. Refuses to take a life under any circumstance, but is perfectly willing to maim and threaten if necessary.

Cultured, sophisticated, and arrogant. Looks down on anyone he considers uncivilized, a category including almost everyone in the universe. Believes his sophistication leaves him morally obligated to conquer his "inferiors" in the name of good taste, likely because his own childhood was a miserable time stuck in an uncultured hick village ruled over by his dim-witted father. Places no value on the lives of ordinary people, but considers great thinkers and artists to be worth saving.

Horny, stupid and utterly unable to defend themselves.

Even though none of the above are real people, the last one definitely comes across as having less agency than the others.
 

Kuro Serpentina

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VoidOfOne said:
Kuro Serpentina said:
While I agree with Jim about the points he was making, the reasons he were making the points seems a bit off
From what I've heard about the Polygon review thing centres around a certain level of hypocrisy from the reviewer, who is known to often visit a smut site where women in various arrays of undress post up for viewer enjoyment, which reach and even surpass the levels of "Fanservice" Bayonetta has become partly known for; which has let many, quite rightly in my opinion, to call foul on the reviewer for condemning it while indulging in an extremely similar thing in his own time.
Makes the whole thing sound a tad disingenuous.
As for the whole discussing of these sorts of things, yeah that would be awesome... however the whole mess that the community at large is currently embroiled in is in no small part due to a lack to out right refusal to discus things
It's one thing to question the reviewer, quite another to tell Nintendo to change its business practices with a gaming website due to the review. Call foul if you want, but you change the whole argument when you call for Nintendo to "cut Polygon out of Nintendo Press Material." It's no longer about simply disagreeing with the review or reviewer (which is everyone's right to do), but now the call is to hinder Polygon for simply doing what they have been allowed to do. And the latter helps no one except for the egos of the people who took "offense" to the points made in the review they disagreed with.
I do agree that this alone does seem a tad too far and silly an action to take
That said, from what I hear this isn't the only thing that Polygon has been called out on, so I could see this being a camel straw incident for some