Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[marurder]

Being someone who doesn't talk often on forums and likes to lurk. I like games, I like to play games. Same as I like music and like to listen to music, and movies!
That said, I don't feel it necessary to know about the actors/directors/crew in any given movie and know the life story of a band/artist I like to listen to.
Why should games have special attention when these other industries suffer the same issues (albeit lesser nowadays)?

Why should I be told I am wrong for saying nothing on a forum when it is my nature? Why am I the asshole when I haven't said anything against the victim?

I agree there is a cancer in the game industry, it is everywhere and it will cause a 'collapse' [or revolution] of sorts. But at the end of the day, it seems like 'casual gamers' are getting a better and better name, as they are 'distant' enough from the cesspit that is dominating the gaming forums everywhere, but close enough to the medium to still have fun.

 

[McFazzer]

I don't understand why being called a 'White Knight' is an insult. Aren't there people that might actually NEED a White Knight? Someone to stand up for them when they get kicked down? Being a White Knight isn't necessarily a bad thing, if someone is in a position to help out shouldn't they? Or is there a creepy 'Bystander Effect' on the internet that is preventing people from helping?

I don't know... I just reckon some people could use a White Knight. Or an Army of them. It's pretty dangerous if you end up getting threatening phone calls after all.

 

[Aulleas123]

I tend to be one of those folks who will not stick my neck out on the line on the internet and I usually try to find the logic in peoples' comments and ideas. But if people are just after these developers just because of what body parts they have between their legs and on nothing else, that's pathetic. Part of me feels like folks seek these comments out to point and say "we still have problems with women in games"; but if these comments are happening in the first place, then they do need to be brought out into the light.

I will say that I disagree with Jim's notion that we cannot separate reasonable gamers from unreasonable gamers. In any group, whether ideological, political, national, religious, or hobby-based, there will be individual differences. Sure, we have to work better to speak out about BS like this incident, but I believe that there is merit in saying that there are individual differences between these gamers and that explaining that "not all gamers are like this" is a reasonable discussion point. Plus, it's true. Many of the comments made on this forum topic support this point, not all gamers are alike. So why isn't it reasonable for me, as a non-bigoted player who doesn't really know or play with any bigoted players, to say that "not all gamers are bigots"?

In addition, I have a tough time with the 'ecosystem' idea. I have an workplace ecosystem, a culture with my friends and family, and a culture with other face-to-face organizations. In a place where I'm surrounded by faceless comments on the internet, I'm sorry but I feel as if there's an 'ecosystem'. It's reasonable, I don't work in the 'ecosystem' and I don't share all of the beliefs of the 'ecosystem', and I don't feel that I have any effect on the 'ecosystem'. I don't really feel the same connection to this 'ecosystem' as others may. I see this as a website where I can see news stories and information about my hobby, but I don't really feel a true connection of an 'ecosystem' as others may due to my lack of investment or reception in this system.

I agree with Jim's main points, but I don't agree with the details of this 'ecosystem' idea.

 

[wulf3n]

Just as radical feminists have tainted and marred the name of feminism forever. I frequently butt heads with these lunatics telling them to curb their misandrist, self opinionated freak-shows of un-scientifically proven circle jerking.

So why is it when I come in to this area of community I see shying away, and unsureness in the face of what are undoubtedly a bunch of Omega male cowards hiding behind phones and internet trying to put down others in extremely harsh and psychologically damaging circumstances.

Do you accept the rants of those that lump feminists with feminazis? Do you accept it when people say all feminists are misandrist? Or do you tell the person "Not all feminists are like that"?

Essentially what is being said here is that if there is a radical sect within a community the rest must bow their head in shame and suffer hatred directed at the radicals to make the aggrieved party feel better. All at the expense of any discussion that tries to come up with possible solutions.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Being someone who doesn't talk often on forums and likes to lurk. I like games, I like to play games. Same as I like music and like to listen to music, and movies!
That said, I don't feel it necessary to know about the actors/directors/crew in any given movie and know the life story of a band/artist I like to listen to.
Why should games have special attention when these other industries suffer the same issues (albeit lesser nowadays)?

Why should I be told I am wrong for saying nothing on a forum when it is my nature? Why am I the asshole when I haven't said anything against the victim?

I agree there is a cancer in the game industry, it is everywhere and it will cause a 'collapse' [or revolution] of sorts. But at the end of the day, it seems like 'casual gamers' are getting a better and better name, as they are 'distant' enough from the cesspit that is dominating the gaming forums everywhere, but close enough to the medium to still have fun.

As much I agree with the premise of not blaming the individuals for the group, I think your doing a bit of it yourself. Claiming that a cesspit is dominating gaming forums is not being very fair either.

 

[JimB]

With how ridiculously hyper-connected extreme minority views can be via the internet, it's nearly impossible to ostracize a person or group of people.

It's pretty much impossible to start an avalanche with a pebble, too. Get a lot of people with a lot of pebbles, though, and the odds improve.

There is no amount of collective action that will ostracize a group like that. They have a collective. It might be small but it's enough to reinforce their own beliefs in how correct they are with their own community.

A community is only as strong as the conviction of its weakest member. If you can convince one member he's wrong, if you can put enough pressure on him to conform with you rather than the smaller collective, then you can win him and take him for your side. If that was impossible, then all the Phelps would still be members of the Westboro Baptist "Church," because the collective would have kept reinforcing the dissidents' beliefs.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Good video as usual Jim, but to be honest, I'm kind of disappointed, I was expecting the top ten shittiest games of 2013, I wanted to see you tear Colonial Marines ... apart, oh well

Didn't he already fuck it up... on video? Seriously though, I think his play by play of the demo commenting on what wasn't there was all the ripping it needed.

 

[Charli]

Just as radical feminists have tainted and marred the name of feminism forever. I frequently butt heads with these lunatics telling them to curb their misandrist, self opinionated freak-shows of un-scientifically proven circle jerking.

So why is it when I come in to this area of community I see shying away, and unsureness in the face of what are undoubtedly a bunch of Omega male cowards hiding behind phones and internet trying to put down others in extremely harsh and psychologically damaging circumstances.

Do you accept the rants of those that lump feminists with feminazis? Do you accept it when people say all feminists are misandrist? Or do you tell the person "Not all feminists are like that"?

Essentially what is being said here is that if there is a radical sect within a community the rest must bow their head in shame and suffer hatred directed at the radicals to make the aggrieved party feel better. All at the expense of any discussion that tries to come up with possible solutions.

It's never that black and white. And I do accept that there is a problem with feminism and shoulder that problem personally, and in my own stride (also for the benefit of the people are under the misconception that there's some kind of holy doctrine, cult like mentality to simply believing in equal rights, I mean it's thanks to feminism that paternal leave is being tested in certain work places. That's a great ideal! And yet...One bad banana...) And it is up to those who want a world of equal parties to make sure that those who are using the name feminism as a tool to tip the scales purely for their own benefit and not the good of all, know that their views are selfish and harmful to others.

That's not what is being said. No one's asking anyone to bow and suffer, it's being asked that you stand up and acknowledge that they are hurting people and when they act, you attempt to counter act on behalf of those under fire. It doesn't need to go beyond that. It's quite clear cut when someone is being an unbelievable racist/misogynist/misandrist/phobic.
It's asking people to not bow their heads while a single person is burnt in a circle of unsure and cowardly individuals. If the person being burnt is undeserving (To use an easy to understand Disney reference), be Quasimodo or Phebus. Not the fear striken people of Paris.

 

[The Material Sheep]

With how ridiculously hyper-connected extreme minority views can be via the internet, it's nearly impossible to ostracize a person or group of people.

It's pretty much impossible to start an avalanche with a pebble, too. Get a lot of people with a lot of pebbles, though, and the odds improve.

There is no amount of collective action that will ostracize a group like that. They have a collective. It might be small but it's enough to reinforce their own beliefs in how correct they are with their own community.

A community is only as strong as the conviction of its weakest member. If you can convince one member he's wrong, if you can put enough pressure on him to conform with you rather than the smaller collective, then you can win him and take him for your side. If that was impossible, then all the Phelps would still be members of the Westboro Baptist "Church," because the collective would have kept reinforcing the dissidents' beliefs.

Aren't the Westboro Baptist Church still a thing? I mean I haven't heard much about them lately, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did but it ignores the fact that internet communities are entirely different.

Anonymity kind of throws a wrench into anything that would be considered focusing.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I don't understand why being called a 'White Knight' is an insult. Aren't there people that might actually NEED a White Knight?

Because "White Knight" is only ever used in this context in a derogatory fashion. I know, because I learned this when I was accused of being one for saying some things that weren't misogynistic. I had never seen it used before then.

The way it is used by these idiots is that anybody who stands up for women or minorities is a "White Knight" only because they are looking to get sex for taking this position. Yes, it is completely absurd, but what else would you expect from such people? Rationality isn't a particularly high priority for people who say such things.

I guess there's always the possibility of trying to "reclaim" the term in the way that "queer" was, but I don't see much point in that, as it's not a very useful term to reclaim.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

OK, I don't usually comment on these massive amounts of female harassment/exploitation videos but this one's got some serious problems with it.

1. What do you really expect me to do about all this? I don't post on Reddit. I don't post on 4chan. I post occasionally at GameFAQs when the mood takes me but I've never seen any "female harassment" being done in the SLIGHTEST over there and neither over here. So when I see topics like this, I just usually move on to the next topic because I've seen 'em so many times and there's NOTHING I can do about them.

2. No Jim, I'm not part of the problem because I don't even get involved in these sorts of topics (disregarding this one), much less do any harassing. Am I really a bad person simply because I'm not creating random accounts and whiteknighting every chance I get like some internet Batman? (Or should I say, darkknighting.)

3. These people who are harassing do so because they want ATTENTION. And that's the problem. Everyone is just giving them what they want (both developers and the community). So they'll keep doing it over and over. And I'm not just talking about hate mail/tweets here. Communities are taking to the forums to complain about a game that's clear a developer put a whole lot of work into and then they crap all over it because it's not THEIR EXACT game. The Halo 4 boards were just out of control with this. 'WAAAAHHHHH Call of Duty in Halo WAAAHHHHH!!!!!' 'It's not COMPETITIVE FOR THE COMPETITIVE COMMUNITY!!!'

So, again, no Jim. I'm not the problem. The real problem is that nobody is being intelligent about this.

 

[wulf3n]

That's not what is being said. No one's asking anyone to bow and suffer, it's being asked that you stand up and acknowledge that they are hurting people and when they act, you attempt to counter act on behalf of those under fire. It doesn't need to go beyond that. It's quite clear cut when someone is being an unbelievable racist/misogynist/misandrist/phobic.
It's asking people to not bow their heads while a single person is burnt in a circle of unsure and cowardly individuals. If the person being burnt is undeserving (To use an easy to understand Disney reference), be Quasimodo or Phebus. Not the fear striken people of Paris.

If the "response" Jim was talking about is the thread in this very forum then that is pretty much what is being said. When fellow forum goers were saying "These harassers aren't gamers" they weren't ignoring the issue or saying it wasn't an issue, they simply took exception to being lumped with bigoted ass holes.

They're not cowardly, hiding from the situation, or in agreement with the harassers. Most of us have voiced our disgust with the harassment on most if not all of the previous occurrences and are becoming jaded because few actually want to figure out how to prevent future occurrences and are content just blaming "Gamers"

 

[VanQ]

I always felt that the greatest contributor to this issue is the gaming press and the figureheads inside it, such as Jim himself, for one simple reason. They continue to feed the trolls. They take the actions of a bunch of idiots and post it up for everyone to see. The actions the trolls have taken have been seen from The Escapist to CNN news.

It's probably not something that will go away just because we stop acknowledging it in the media, but it would help I think, to not keep giving those idiots the fifteen seconds of fame they're craving.

 

[JimB]

Aren't the Westboro Baptist "Church" still a thing?

Yes, but I believe the final generation of their existence before the group's extinction has been born.

Also, please forgive my impudence in altering your quote, but I refuse to dignify them by granting them the title of any sort of spiritual organization, even if it's only while repeating someone else.

Anonymity kind of throws a wrench into anything that would be considered focusing.

Anonymity only exists on the internet, though. In the real world, those people have to go out and face the pressure of societal disapproval. I mean, as a personal example, I have enough anonymity on the internet to discuss my mental problems without fear of being judged as weak for having a psychiatric disorder, but the taboo of real-world society weighing down on me shames me every time I try to discuss my issue and makes me want to stop.

 

[marurder]

Being someone who doesn't talk often on forums and likes to lurk. I like games, I like to play games. Same as I like music and like to listen to music, and movies!
That said, I don't feel it necessary to know about the actors/directors/crew in any given movie and know the life story of a band/artist I like to listen to.
Why should games have special attention when these other industries suffer the same issues (albeit lesser nowadays)?

Why should I be told I am wrong for saying nothing on a forum when it is my nature? Why am I the asshole when I haven't said anything against the victim?

I agree there is a cancer in the game industry, it is everywhere and it will cause a 'collapse' [or revolution] of sorts. But at the end of the day, it seems like 'casual gamers' are getting a better and better name, as they are 'distant' enough from the cesspit that is dominating the gaming forums everywhere, but close enough to the medium to still have fun.

As much I agree with the premise of not blaming the individuals for the group, I think your doing a bit of it yourself. Claiming that a cesspit is dominating gaming forums is not being very fair either.

The hypocrisy is intentional, I assure you. As I said, I agree there is a problem. But spreading the blame indiscriminately isn't going to solve it.

 

[Hero of Lime]

Hey! I liked Link's Crossbow Training! I though it was pretty fun and worth the 10 bucks I paid for it.

Though I agree Hyrule Warriors should he a hoot too.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Aren't the Westboro Baptist "Church" still a thing?

Yes, but I believe the final generation of their existence before the group's extinction has been born.

Also, please forgive my impudence in altering your quote, but I refuse to dignify them by granting them the title of any sort of spiritual organization, even if it's only while repeating someone else.

Heh. You think churches are about spirituality? If anything, the moniker "church" indicates a lack of spirituality. Most of them only stand for profit, tax write-offs, legal privileges and conformity. Nobody needs a church to be spiritual.

So, I think the Westboro Baptists definitely deserve to be called a church..

 

[The Material Sheep]

Aren't the Westboro Baptist "Church" still a thing?

Yes, but I believe the final generation of their existence before the group's extinction has been born.

Also, please forgive my impudence in altering your quote, but I refuse to dignify them by granting them the title of any sort of spiritual organization, even if it's only while repeating someone else.

Anonymity kind of throws a wrench into anything that would be considered focusing.

Anonymity only exists on the internet, though. In the real world, those people have to go out and face the pressure of societal disapproval. I mean, as a personal example, I have enough anonymity on the internet to discuss my mental problems without fear of being judged as weak for having a psychiatric disorder, but the taboo of real-world society weighing down on me shames me every time I try to discuss my issue and makes me want to stop.

To the first point, as much as you perhaps don't want to give them credence as a spiritual organization, they are one, and spiritual is not in anyway synonymous with goodness.

To the second, while that's true real life puts people in connection often times with a larger assortment of individuals with a wider range of views and beliefs. It's very hard for someone with minority view to get all the reinforcement it needs to thrive in a sane person with how disconnected people are in real life. On the inter webs however they can be immediately connected with their own group, and people like this tend to do all their work within the anonymity of the internet. So yes, if they did have their direct social life threatened by these beliefs then it might be effective to stigmatize them. However, this situation almost exclusively lies within the realm of the internet and it's anonymity.

 

[wAriot]

Anonymity only exists on the internet, though. In the real world, those people have to go out and face the pressure of societal disapproval. I mean, as a personal example, I have enough anonymity on the internet to discuss my mental problems without fear of being judged as weak for having a psychiatric disorder, but the taboo of real-world society weighing down on me shames me every time I try to discuss my issue and makes me want to stop.

I don't know about everyone else, but I refuse to be shambled by taboos, whether I'm on the Internet or out there. I don't really care about "societal disapproval"; if you can't deal with my opinions, nor can you discuss them and try to create a proper argument, then get off my face. And I bring this same perspective online.

Now, I'm obviously not condoning the use of insults or, in general, any kind of ad hominem, but it is also my opinion that people should grow a thicker skin (both here and out there), because unless there is a big, BIG change in the Internet, or in humans (or both), "trolls" are here to stay.

 

[DrOswald]

Aren't the Westboro Baptist "Church" still a thing?

Yes, but I believe the final generation of their existence before the group's extinction has been born.

Also, please forgive my impudence in altering your quote, but I refuse to dignify them by granting them the title of any sort of spiritual organization, even if it's only while repeating someone else.

Anonymity kind of throws a wrench into anything that would be considered focusing.

Anonymity only exists on the internet, though. In the real world, those people have to go out and face the pressure of societal disapproval. I mean, as a personal example, I have enough anonymity on the internet to discuss my mental problems without fear of being judged as weak for having a psychiatric disorder, but the taboo of real-world society weighing down on me shames me every time I try to discuss my issue and makes me want to stop.

But right there is the problem: This is not a "Real world" issue, it is an internet issue. These people are jackasses on the internet, they don't go out in the real world and act this way. The problem is that anonymous harassment is easy because of the many ways there are to hide one's identity. We can shame the Westboro Baptist "church" because it is a real world organization connected to real world individuals. Anonymity is almost impossible to maintain. We cannot effectively use the same tactic against internet harassers because their shield of anonymity. When we respond to them they are not ostracized and they feel no social shame but they know that they have gotten to us. It encourages the trolls and extremists because they are getting the attention they want. Instead of arguing with extremist it is much more productive to instead engage with the more moderate individuals, the people who we are capable of influencing.

Extremist very rarely start that way. They are usually influenced to that point from a more moderate position of prejudice. If we can eliminate the base of moderate prejudice then the extremist will start to die out. It is a long term strategy but it is the only one that will work.