Jimquisition: Think of the Children!

BlueJoneleth

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dessertmonkeyjk said:
I wholeheartedly agree that Clementine is a great definition to what a child is like and should be like.



Too bad you didn't warn them about Duck... you sneaky man.

Duck thinks you're totally awesome.
 

Toothache of Sauron

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Well said. And they're always given converstation lines that really really are annoying.

I hate children in fiction since the first time I watched a film with kids when I was three years old. To the point when I saw Star Wars: The Revenge of the Sith, when Annakin goes to exterminate the children of the Academy I jumped out of my seat, arms to the sky, shouting "HELL YES! YES! YESSSS!! THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!!". Well, I didn't, but only managed to restrain myself in the last millisecond before doing it with the help of my nearly pathologic shyness.
 

teh_gunslinger

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SonOfMethuselah said:
Been meaning to give these a try, just because they're supposed to be really good. But now Jim Sterling (JIM FREAKIN' STERLING, of all people!) is using them as an example of a child's character done well in a video game that ISN'T Psychonauts? I HAVE to try them now. Oh, also:

Roofstone said:
OT: I really liked Emily from dishonored, she is obviously sad and scared about this whole situation, but still manages to stay generally upbeat when you are around. As well as trying her best to act her part and stay mature.

One of the few characters that made me want to protect her, simply because she was a good character.
m19 said:
Princess Emily from Dishonored wasn't too bad either.
I'm not super far into the game yet (just heading to the Golden Cat now), because I bought XCOM at the same time, and have sort of been wrapped up in that, but Emily's first moment in the game wasn't too bad. I started getting a bad feeling around the time I was playing hide-and-seek with her, though.

Not because of anything she did, per say, more because of the subtitles that occurred when we were heading to the area you play in/when I didn't emerge from my hiding spot immediately.

They were:





And my thought was "Did you honestly have to caption that? And, since clearly you did, did they HAVE to be so token? Could you not have represented them with a string of letters? Her sound of restlessness in particular was something like "Umm... Nnngh." Would that have been so hard?"

For me, that they boiled her childish noises down to such a science was a sign of bad things to come.

On the other hand, I like how they characterized her curiosity for the sea almost immediately. It's not much, but it shows at least an ATTEMPT at character building, which is more than I can say for most children in video games.
That's... how closed captioning works. Would you also have a fit if they did a [Sounds of phone rining]?

If you're hard of hearing [Sound of restlessness] is a lot better than "Umm... Nnngh" as it brings with it a context and connotations.
 

Balkan

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My favorite kid in games has the be Ezio Auditore from AC2 (not brotherhood or revelations ) .
He was a lost child that grew up in front of me to become a great man .
 

Milanezi

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Personally, I don't think Clementine is much realistic. I don't feel much for her, I don't dislike her nor do I like her, and my actions are based on the group as a whole, I seldom put her needs in front of anyone else's; that's because I don't see her as a real kid, her actions are weird for a child in a world full of zombies, she's brave where not even adults would be. On the other hand, I do feel "something" for Carl, I see the kid as legitimate, granted, in the second season he pissed me off, but still he was a CHILD, that whole deal about going around with a gun after a stuck zombie, I hated that, it was stupid of him to do that, but it was also very child-like, this ignorance of danger/feeling of immortality, what child doesn't want to be a badass and thinks it's so easy to be one? It's typical naughty behavior, it's like throwing rocks at a house's window, simply because it makes you feel good and you're somehow pissed. Carl is torn apart in world full of zombies, it's natural that he freezes in fear at times, and that he tries to impress SHANE (for Shane's his role model much more than Rick) by any means necessary, those crazy events took hold of a whole group of adults and brought them to their knees, it's only expected that ANY kid will feel the same: plus the dreadful element of ignorance and no real grasp on the ways life and morality.
 

hermes

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You think that is bad? In my country, they are going to ban advertisement in kids shows time, because they are "impressionable and need our protection". Not only its a scapegoat, it makes all the series based around toys (like Transformers, Thundercats, Pokemon, Bakugan, etc) basically illegal. Granted, some are not good, but illegal?

What are they going to replace it with? Government founded advertisement... Because that sounds so much better.
 

hermes

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If anything, I hate the precocious children stereotype more than the helpless kid one. Its not so prominent on games as it is on movies and books, but I can't handle them anywhere. You know the ones I talk about. The Juno/Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close kind of kid, who is deep and introspective (sometimes close to autistic) and more competent, mature and insightful than most adults around him.

The reason I can't take them is because they are completely idealized and completely unrealistic. Say what you wish about the kids of Heavy Rain, but at least they and their routine felt real. Monotonous and boring, but real. I don't know how many children you know, but I know far more that are not small philosophers and are not as competent during crisis, than those that go around Central Park at night, talk like they memorized the Encyclopedia Britannica and help adults "open their hearts"...
 

dubious_wolf

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Carl will hopefully be less of a brat in the 3rd season.
Also is there anyway to cut the episode length Jim? I really enjoy it but I usually end up mousing over to another page 6 minutes in.
 

idodo35

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btw about clem
all you said is true but oh my god episode 4 she saved my ass like 3 times!!!
she is an amazing character in an amazing game :)
 

SonOfMethuselah

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teh_gunslinger said:
That's... how closed captioning works. Would you also have a fit if they did a [Sounds of phone ringing]?

If you're hard of hearing [Sound of restlessness] is a lot better than "Umm... Nnngh" as it brings with it a context and connotations.
If you think that was a "fit," I'd hate to know what you extreme hyperbole you attach to a REAL fit. Murderous rage, perhaps?
 

Redd the Sock

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Abandon4093 said:
Redd the Sock said:
Tell me about it with Clementine. At first you keep her around as it's the decent thing to do, but by the end of episode 4 (which I assume this was recorded before) I'm actively letting her convince me to do stupid things.

After Ben grabs the hatchet from the door letting the walkers into the school and then decides that's the best time to come clean to kenny about the bandits, she bats her eyes, calls him her friend and I go, damn it, you're going to make me defend and save this scrawny screw up aren't you, you little twerp. Then in the aftermath she runs off to find her parents like all those dumbass kids in other games, and I unfortunately give a damn.
I didn't take her with us, left her at home with the gun.

And I think that's down to how good of a job Telltale did with her. When she asks to come with, I did what I think I'd actually have done if I'd have been in charge of a child and not taken them into a potentially dangerous situation. In any other game I'd have taken her since she could have been an asset but I actually cared enough to think rationally about it.

That's no mean feat.
yeah, you just left her alone in a house with a dying man that could turn at any moment. Not that that had occurred to me until later, I just didn't think I did her any favors treating her like she was helpless, especially given how twice that episode she proved herself smarter than the adults. If something happened to me (and the ending pretty much spells out Clem will be without Lee sooner rather than later) she'd need someone that's help her learn to be more like Molly, skilled, confindent, and resourceful.
 

Mad1Cow

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Jim, I know you like this girl and all and I've let you finish, but Ken from Persona 3 is just SOOOO much better in my opinion. From the get go, he's already a benefit to the party. He's also one of the first characters that has deep traumatic issues troubling him and sorts it out first. He starts off wanting to be one of the big boys and constantly saying "I won't hold you back", which he doesn't, but still he wants to try harder to protect others. He's also the most NORMAL character in Persona 3 and is just the sweetest, caring thing I've ever seen.

Seriously, I don't get how you can hate Ken. I know there's a whole cult wanting his head for some inane reason but seriously as soon as Ken joined I was there wanting to make him a cup of coffee and effing talk about his problems. Ken Amada, look it up.
 

Falseprophet

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RJ 17 said:
Falseprophet said:
My favourite child character in a genre film? Newt from Aliens. Yeah, she was definitely a scared little girl, but she showed the survival instinct that allowed her to survive for weeks on a xenomorph-infested complex .
One of my favorite lines from that movie:
Ripely: "This little girl survived all on her own for a week without any military training at all!"
Hudson: "Well fuckin' put her in charge!"
Did Hudson have a single line in that movie that wasn't solid gold?

"Game over, man! Game over!"
 

Kyleee

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In a way I agree with this episode but what about Cheryl from Silent Hill 1? I can't help but feel like she is an exception to this problem. She seems to be more of a symbol than a actual character. A symbol of her real character alessa gillespie who's character is hinted at through out the game.
 

DANEgerous

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I have to say for kids outside of games I think "Rue" from "The Hunger Games" kind of does a rather fantastic job. She is a massive presence in the books even as a very small roll and make you swear vengeance on her life.
 

Aurora Firestorm

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Dear Jim, quit hating on Heavy Rain. I know you don't like it, but really, the kid was *not the point.* The mystery was the point. It didn't have to be a kid; it could have been any family member or close friend, because the point was the relationship between the man and the (associated person). We didn't *need* to know who Jason was as a character and a real human being. He could have been anyone. (Also, he *did* have a personality. He was a depressed kid who didn't like staying with his dad, and was clearly just ambling through life doing nothing because his brother just *died* and his parents just *divorced.*)

Heavy Rain was a very classic whodunit. The victim doesn't matter; in lots of whodunits, the victim is introduced for a few minutes or just isn't even there, already dead at the start. The point is everyone else, not the actual dead/missing/whatever person.

Anyway, back to kids. I think that one reason kid characters fail is that they either end up being adults in kids' bodies (thus, why are they even kids, it's like the authors are overcompensating for typical kid annoying traits), or they're kids in adults' bodies (see: most stereotypical teenage characters).